Comparing the Paladin and the Cleric for a front line tank, which of these two makes a better tank when spec'd to do so.
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Paladin. Bigger hit die, better saves, access to heavy armor, and swift action self-healing. In addition, being a full-BAB class with an extremely strong offensive kit against evil enemies makes them generally threatening enough to warrant paying full attention to them.
Ehhh, tankiness is hard to quantify in Pathfinder as there aren´t very solid "taunt" or other control mechanics outside of spells, and you usually don´t want to be casting those on the "frontline".
I would give the paladin a nod because of their great defense vs magic, quick action self-heal and better combat ability. Clerics and oracles can certainly do a decent job later on, though, and warpriests deserve a mention for the combination of feats, spellcasting and fervor-empowered self-buffs.
As a cleric it MAY be possible to be more survivable but as others are saying, the paladin makes a better "Tank" character.
As a cleric it MAY be possible to be more survivable but as others are saying, the paladin makes a better "Tank" character.
Indeed when I say tankiness, I do refer to survivability. Spells like debilitating portent, defending bone, freedom of movement, among many others are great tools in sustaining long term punishment on the frontline. I am surprised with all the Paladin nods.
Paladin. Bigger hit die, better saves, access to heavy armor, and swift action self-healing. In addition, being a full-BAB class with an extremely strong offensive kit against evil enemies makes them generally threatening enough to warrant paying full attention to them.
indeed, well said I agree with everything except the heavy armor thing being a big issue. A cleric has many tricks up his sleeve in terms of defense,such as mirror image (deception subdomain) not sure if the Paladin has anything as good for avoiding enemy attacks. A cleric player may say, I touch of madness my enemy and then plane shift them, gg no-re.
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I think it depends on what you mean by "tank".
If it's just "a combatant that is extremely difficult to disable" (i.e. "what I think of when I hear 'tank' and context makes it clear we're not talking about a piece of ordnance) then it's the paladin hands down- bigger HD, better AC, higher saves, efficient self-healing, relevant immunities. Cleric's perhaps more threatening with the various spells they can bring to bear, but "hard to kill" is the raison d' être of the Paladin.
If it's something that requires me to have played an MMO at some point to understand, I cannot help you.
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Throughout most levels and in a mid-op game, paladins have the best saves in the game and some neat immunities. They also have a massive ability to soak damage and not go down because of lay-on-hands and mercies.
Ehhh, tankiness is hard to quantify in Pathfinder as there aren´t very solid "taunt" or other control mechanics outside of spells, and you usually don´t want to be casting those on the "frontline".
I would give the paladin a nod because of their great defense vs magic, quick action self-heal and better combat ability. Clerics and oracles can certainly do a decent job later on, though, and warpriests deserve a mention for the combination of feats, spellcasting and fervor-empowered self-buffs.
I would say that tank is more of a secondary character job, which mostly just serves to "let you live long enough to fulfill your other jobs".
For example- if the entire party is hit with a Save or Suck effect, and you are the only one with a high enough save to avoid it... that is a serious advantage and everyone is going to rely on you to save their rear ends.
Paladins have fantastic damage against a lot of important enemies, and they can do various types of healing through lay on hands and spells. So they are fantastic in my example scenario
Clerics are better at general healing and they have access to a lot of other spells, but they are not as sturdy. still fairly tanky in the will save though (good will+casting stat).
Paladin. Bigger hit die, better saves, access to heavy armor, and swift action self-healing. In addition, being a full-BAB class with an extremely strong offensive kit against evil enemies makes them generally threatening enough to warrant paying full attention to them.indeed, well said I agree with everything except the heavy armor thing being a big issue. A cleric player may say, I touch of madness my enemy and then plane shift them, gg no-re.
You can say that, but against enemies with good threat range and powerful attacks, relying on casting 2 spells in the middle of a combat is not always a good idea. In fact, frontline characters ideally try not to rely on spellcasting during combat in the early levels: defensive casting is unreliable, and AoOs hurt when you have a d8 hit die.
Now, at high levels, few things beat a full caster, but that´s at higher levels. A paladin is a very decent tank from level 2 on, when they get a big save boost and self-heal.
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Paladin probably is better but you have to be careful not to be TOO good at surviving.
If your AC is unhittable, and you don't pose a threat otherwise enemies could just ignore you since they're not forced to attack you.
Dealing solid damage is important to get enemies to come after you. Be scary!
For me Samurai is the best tank, yojimbo even better.
But if the two choices? Paladin. Heavy armour without feat investment, swift action lay on heals self healing and amazing saves, combined with a higher CMD than a cleric (surprised that no one mentioned this) means harder to knock down or grapple or just generally hinder. Add in a healthy hit point total and a way to trip or knock around others plus smite giving an A.C. bonus.. there's a top tier for the title of Tank.
Indeed, very valid point, well said. Athough CMD not a big issue for Cleric FoM will take care of that, infact this is superior than even the Paladin in this regard. Cleric probably significantly more difficult to hit with the array of defensive spells they have at there disposal, shield of darkness and the list goes on and on. I'm no expert, but one thing I've picked up from these forums is miss chance is better than a high AC, the cleric has both.
Paladin probably is better but you have to be careful not to be TOO good at surviving.
If your AC is unhittable, and you don't pose a threat otherwise enemies could just ignore you since they're not forced to attack you.
Dealing solid damage is important to get enemies to come after you. Be scary!
Fortunately, paladins are usually threats as well, what with the smiting and such. (Offer void against froghemoths and the like.)
Fortunately, paladins are usually threats as well, what with the smiting and such. (Offer void against froghemoths and the like.)Paladin probably is better but you have to be careful not to be TOO good at surviving.
If your AC is unhittable, and you don't pose a threat otherwise enemies could just ignore you since they're not forced to attack you.
Dealing solid damage is important to get enemies to come after you. Be scary!
Greetings blahpers are paladins any more of a threat then a cleric?
Split the difference. I've yet to see a character with more outright suitability than a well built Warpriest.
Greetings blahpers are paladins any more of a threat then a cleric?Fortunately, paladins are usually threats as well, what with the smiting and such. (Offer void against froghemoths and the like.)Paladin probably is better but you have to be careful not to be TOO good at surviving.
If your AC is unhittable, and you don't pose a threat otherwise enemies could just ignore you since they're not forced to attack you.
Dealing solid damage is important to get enemies to come after you. Be scary!
Depends on the paladin and the cleric.
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Depends on the paladin and the cleric.Greetings blahpers are paladins any more of a threat then a cleric?Fortunately, paladins are usually threats as well, what with the smiting and such. (Offer void against froghemoths and the like.)Paladin probably is better but you have to be careful not to be TOO good at surviving.
If your AC is unhittable, and you don't pose a threat otherwise enemies could just ignore you since they're not forced to attack you.
Dealing solid damage is important to get enemies to come after you. Be scary!
And the enemy.
If you are an evil dragon, lich, or demon, and the paladin is in full attack range... paladin by a mile.
Depends on the paladin and the cleric.Greetings blahpers are paladins any more of a threat then a cleric?Fortunately, paladins are usually threats as well, what with the smiting and such. (Offer void against froghemoths and the like.)Paladin probably is better but you have to be careful not to be TOO good at surviving.
If your AC is unhittable, and you don't pose a threat otherwise enemies could just ignore you since they're not forced to attack you.
Dealing solid damage is important to get enemies to come after you. Be scary!
And the enemy.
If you are an evil dragon, lich, or demon, and the paladin is in full attack range... paladin by a mile.
hmm, no love for the Cleric on this thread at all. Any positive things about the Cleric? does that mean the cleric is better than everything cept evil dragons, liches and demons?
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You can split the difference with Warpriest!
Side note: there's nothing stopping you from making a cleric with 2 levels of Paladin to get Divine Grace.
hmm, no love for the Cleric on this thread at all. Any positive things about the Cleric? does that mean the cleric is better than everything cept evil dragons, liches and demons?
Cleric is a perfectly functional and indeed strong, if boring, class.
It's just that "d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, medium armor, (probably) no good weapon proficiencies, standard action self-healing" does not make you a natural "toughest thing on the frontlines". It's not like you die instantly if you end up there, but it isn't necessarily where you should gravitate to.
A standard "front-line cleric" picks up a longspear (or other reach weapon they are proficient in) and makes AoOs against anybody who gets up close/moves by. By doing this you can safely use standard actions to cast spells, and still make attacks. Reach Clerics can be very strong characters, but they don't scream "tank."
hmm, no love for the Cleric on this thread at all. Any positive things about the Cleric? does that mean the cleric is better than everything cept evil dragons, liches and demons?Cleric is a perfectly functional and indeed strong, if boring, class.
It's just that "d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, medium armor, (probably) no good weapon proficiencies, standard action self-healing" does not make you a natural "toughest thing on the frontlines". It's not like you die instantly if you end up there, but it isn't necessarily where you should gravitate to.
A standard "front-line cleric" picks up a longspear (or other reach weapon they are proficient in) and makes AoOs against anybody who gets up close/moves by. By doing this you can safely use standard actions to cast spells, and still make attacks. Reach Clerics can be very strong characters, but they don't scream "tank."
I see, very insightful I didn't know that. How about a Bad Touch Cleric?
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hmm, no love for the Cleric on this thread at all. Any positive things about the Cleric? does that mean the cleric is better than everything cept evil dragons, liches and demons?
It can be.
The paladin is threatening when it is on you because it is hard to shake off- he self heals as a swift action (so hitting him doesn't work too well), and he has fantastic saves/immunities so you don't have much hope to use casting ton get rid of him.
Paladins are the prime example of what a tank is in pathfinder- he is just really good at taking everything to the face. They then add on a mechanic so that is a really, really big problem for you- such as smite carving out huge portions of your health if you an evil thing (and likely a boss character of the campaign).
Clerics.... are 9 level casters. Their list includes things that are fantastic, even if they are more melee focused (ie- minimal casting stat)- buffs and summoning. Reach clerics are taken as an example of a build that can do a 'one man party', since they can just summon up some back up and then they just gang up on the enemy.
The cleric isn't as good at eating hits to the face. But it doesn't need to be, since it has its own toys to play with.
As a cleric it MAY be possible to be more survivable but as others are saying, the paladin makes a better "Tank" character.Indeed when I say tankiness, I do refer to survivability. Spells like debilitating portent, defending bone, freedom of movement, among many others are great tools in sustaining long term punishment on the frontline. I am surprised with all the Paladin nods.
Because those all require actions after the battle has already begun.
-- If there's one thing the BBEGs love to do, it's target a spellcaster in the surprise round for a heap-ton of overwhelming raw damage (but have one archer hang back with a readied-action should the target attempt a spell).
Paladins are also straight up immune to a lot of things that a cleric will be sweating a save to make. In particular, they usually make their reflex save.
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The worst trait a tank can have is if you care if they die.
You care if a Paladin dies.
You don't care if the Cleric's castings of Summon Monster die.
I’d say the best tanks are probably bloodragers, Mesmerists and Kineticist, but of those options I’d go Paladin.
Indeed, very valid point, well said. Athough CMD not a big issue for Cleric FoM will take care of that, infact this is superior than even the Paladin in this regard. Cleric probably significantly more difficult to hit with the array of defensive spells they have at there disposal, shield of darkness and the list goes on and on. I'm no expert, but one thing I've picked up from these forums is miss chance is better than a high AC, the cleric has both.For me Samurai is the best tank, yojimbo even better.
But if the two choices? Paladin. Heavy armour without feat investment, swift action lay on heals self healing and amazing saves, combined with a higher CMD than a cleric (surprised that no one mentioned this) means harder to knock down or grapple or just generally hinder. Add in a healthy hit point total and a way to trip or knock around others plus smite giving an A.C. bonus.. there's a top tier for the title of Tank.
Difference is that paladin always have his CMD and saves, while cleric need to cast spells. Fully buffed cleric is better, but by the time you finish buffing yourself either enemies or your allies will be dead. FoM is not as bad, you get it at 7th so 70 min may be enough to finish your dungeon raid if you cast it at the gate, but that is most favourable conditions. You can build a cleric that will be better tank than paladin, but in general pala is more suitable. If you want to play cleric i would suggest you to do so.
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My life oracle is a terrifying tank. He burst heals to the extent that things have to focus me or nothing will ever drop. But I can single target heal myself absurdly well. The only character I've had fall in lava and just stay in it because it wasn't that bad. At higher levels I was able to get to stats to wear plate and a shield, but for a while I was hangin around w/ a 11 AC and would get hit by everything.
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I see, very insightful I didn't know that. How about a Bad Touch Cleric?hmm, no love for the Cleric on this thread at all. Any positive things about the Cleric? does that mean the cleric is better than everything cept evil dragons, liches and demons?Cleric is a perfectly functional and indeed strong, if boring, class.
It's just that "d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, medium armor, (probably) no good weapon proficiencies, standard action self-healing" does not make you a natural "toughest thing on the frontlines". It's not like you die instantly if you end up there, but it isn't necessarily where you should gravitate to.
A standard "front-line cleric" picks up a longspear (or other reach weapon they are proficient in) and makes AoOs against anybody who gets up close/moves by. By doing this you can safely use standard actions to cast spells, and still make attacks. Reach Clerics can be very strong characters, but they don't scream "tank."
Dude, we know you're going to play a bad touch Cleric. You've started 3 threads in the last few days about it. But no, a bad touch Cleric can be powerful, very useful to the allied caster and annoying to the GM, but it's no tank.
If you want a tank, better go Paladin or, eventually, Oradin.
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I can offer one cleric build that can out tank a paladin, maybe.
Separatist cleric: domains are feather and eagle.
The animal companion has the bodyguard feats (and or the archtype), the familiar has the protector archtype. Very few builds bring this much hp to the table. You can boost other players ac, and take damage for them (in harms way, shield other).
It is not traditional tanking this is modern day wireless tanking and it makes channeling a much more effective strategy.
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I feel like the cleric would generate more "aggro" than the paladin. Intelligent enemies will want to get rid of the healer first, as otherwise, they are just hitting a wall of unending hit points. Life tanking is when you maximize your healing and defense abilties, so that it's pointless to attack anyone other than the healer. The cleric also has the shield other spell, so that even when he isn't being attacked, he can protect his allies from most attacks.
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I feel like the cleric would generate more "aggro" than the paladin. Intelligent enemies will want to get rid of the healer first, as otherwise, they are just hitting a wall of unending hit points.
That kind of overstates the amount of healing the average cleric puts out.
To answer the original question: A Paladin is a good tank by default. It's hard to make one who can't fulfil that role, to the extent that role exists. (Which depends a lot on how many 5 foot wide corridors there are in your adventures.)
A Cleric can potentially be a good tank. Like most full casters, you can fulfil just about any role if you focus on it.
I feel like the cleric would generate more "aggro" than the paladin. Intelligent enemies will want to get rid of the healer first, as otherwise, they are just hitting a wall of unending hit points.That kind of overstates the amount of healing the average cleric puts out.
The average cleric, sure. But I assumed we were min-maxing here. Honestly, I prefer the spirit guide double life oracle for this, but the cleric can serve about as well. You need Fey Foundling, Selective Channel and Quick Channel. Extra Channel and Reactive Healing are also nice additions.
The channel cleric doesn't care as much about the silence spell, and has condition removal for when enemies target the saves. But you can't expect the average intelligent enemy to have any of those options available to them.
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Unless you are playing with an outrageous stat system, the paladin's saves aren't incredibly higher than the cleric. The cleric will even likely have a higher will save than the paladin, as the cleric will be pushing wisdom while the paladin ignores it.
And I never said the cleric tank shouldn't have a backup healer. He should be assumed to have the same access to support that the paladin does.
Difference is that paladin always have his CMD and saves, while cleric need to cast spells. Fully buffed cleric is better, but by the time you finish buffing yourself either enemies or your allies will be dead. FoM is not as bad, you get it at 7th so 70 min may be enough to finish your dungeon raid if you cast it at the gate, but that is most favourable conditions. You can build a cleric that will be better tank than paladin, but in general pala is more suitable. If you want to play cleric i would suggest you to do so.Indeed, very valid point, well said. Athough CMD not a big issue for Cleric FoM will take care of that, infact this is superior than even the Paladin in this regard. Cleric probably significantly more difficult to hit with the array of defensive spells they have at there disposal, shield of darkness and the list goes on and on. I'm no expert, but one thing I've picked up from these forums is miss chance is better than a high AC, the cleric has both.For me Samurai is the best tank, yojimbo even better.
But if the two choices? Paladin. Heavy armour without feat investment, swift action lay on heals self healing and amazing saves, combined with a higher CMD than a cleric (surprised that no one mentioned this) means harder to knock down or grapple or just generally hinder. Add in a healthy hit point total and a way to trip or knock around others plus smite giving an A.C. bonus.. there's a top tier for the title of Tank.
Ahh yes, this is what I had in mind nice post! Long term buffs of FoM, extend on the mirror image will last pretty long, defending bone is all day etc. Even partiaoly buffed it sounds like its hard to go against this character.
I have seen a very effective Cleric tanking build once. I would agree that the Paladin is better in general, but Bobo! here is very invested in defense and it shows.
The worst trait a tank can have is if you care if they die.
You care if a Paladin dies.
You don't care if the Cleric's castings of Summon Monster die.
Interesting approach
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Like most things involving prepared full casters, preparation is key. If a competent cleric has time to buff, and their adventuring day isn't too long, they can handle the tanking role.
If you're a bit careless, or dealing with a GM throwing unpredictable things at you, the paladin will still be a good tank.