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Yeah, I'm fully on board with taking the training wheels off of Wild Shape. As far as I'm concerned, Aspects are a huge failure on every front. Too few of them, minor aspects too short in duration or too situational or too minor, major aspects are a waste of page space when you could just use regular wildshape, early access to pounce is unbalancing at low levels, 15th level aspect boosts are way too weak in comparison.
Remove aspects, give real wild shape, and add actual innovative class features.
It would be great if Shifters could choose bonus effects when shifting, like removing poisions, granting temporary hit points or fast healing, and at higher levels things like actual chimeric effects as discussed previously. It'd be like paladin mercies.
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In terms of the Shifter's shape changing ability, I don't have a problem with the current wildshape and 5 aspects if what you're going for is a chimeric shapeshifter theme. The traditional chimera is often a combination of 3-5 animals. The shifter could be improved by making it a true chimeric shapeshifter. By true I mean that it can in some way, shape, or form, combine it's greater aspects to some degree in a chimeric animal shape.
This would make the shifter's shapechanging even more different than a druid. A druid can shape into more creatures but can't combine any of these animals into a chimeric form. That could be a way to further differentiate the shifter's shapechanging talent from the druid and make the shifter better at an aspect of shapechanging than any other class.
Graystone's idea of using one of the greater aspect as the base and swapping abilities would seem to be a simple change to greater chimeric aspect. It could be changed so that you can use it as currently written with your minor aspects being combined, or you could swap specific parts of two major aspects (and not combining the minor aspects). The number of major aspects you could draw from for the swapping could increase to three at a later level and maybe all five at level 19 or 20. It could be restricted to swapping a movement for a movement, a sense for a sense, an attack for an attack. I'm definitely not a class designer so I'm sure there are problems with this swapping mechanic. The key point for me is that making the shifter a true chimeric shapeshifter at higher levels would really make the class more exciting and fun.
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I am still confused by the fact that the ability to add your wisdom mod to minutes per day for aspects is locked behind a feat tax. Is there any reason for that?
Because they didn't want Wisdom to way too heavily as it's already being used for Shifter Instincts (where it adds either Wisdom modifier to Dex for AC or half Wisdom modifier to Dex for AC if armored)?
My guess, at least?
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But at the same time, before the Wildshape change Defensive Instinct was the only place it was being used. Which basically made it a false multi-ability dependency. Which is why I'm glad they added Wis scaling to Wildshape, and wish it had been added to Minor Aspects too if they're not going to just give us always-on minor aspects.
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Honestly Wultram, the point of the Ability Bonuses is so you don't Need the belt and can put your money towards elsewhere, for example Wild Enchant on your armor. At least that's how I look at it, which to me just brings up the fact that we need more time per day on our Minor Aspects...
Considering that one gets like 8-10 minutes of minor aspects at mid levels (which go fast once you start wanting two at once) I think I'd probably rather buy the belt in my most important stat (say, strength) since I might get called on to, say, open the rusty gate because "you're the strong one" and not want to waste a minute of an aspect.
I feel like this particulary affects the Elementalist who wants to start using two minor aspects at once all the time once they are level 9, and they only have aspects which grant enhancement bonuses. So like pick earth (acid resist is rare) and air (flying might come in handy) and buy a strength belt.
But at the same time, before the Wildshape change Defensive Instinct was the only place it was being used. Which basically made it a false multi-ability dependency. Which is why I'm glad they added Wis scaling to Wildshape, and wish it had been added to Minor Aspects too if they're not going to just give us always-on minor aspects.
Yeah, but it is wisdom on a bad will class. So I am willing to accept false MAD when it gives me an excuse to up my will save.
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The main issue with it being false MAD is that point buy is quite cruel when you need those stats. Oozemorphs are actually MAD, needing all the physical stats to even survive past lv 1, as well as a will save to not get polymorphed into whatever the wizard feels like. At least they've attempted to fix the false MAD property of the shifter.
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I'd rather not have yet another MAD class but I'm in the minority. Anyway the enhancement bonuses granted by the minor aspects are terribly unimaginative when you could have used much more thematic bonuses in their place. Frankly I'm not a fan of the aspects, didn't like it on the hunter and I don't like it on the shifter.
If you ask me you should just ditch the idea of minor and major forms and have aspects be some form of improving "mantle" if you would that improves both your base form and wild shape. You don't necessarily turn into the animal but they grant you features and abilities of the animal along with cosmetic changes.
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I feel like every non-ranged martial with a bad will save is intrinsically MAD. I don't know if there is a way around that.
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I just wish there was an easier way to get AC as an oozemorph at low levels, since you are relying on Dex to have even a paltry 14 for most of a day. I've yet to play a game where my character doesn't get within 5% of getting killed doing what most martials do best in terms of fighting against another creature in melee range. DR/slashing just doesn't cut it.
At some point in the future they need to add a Honey Badger (Or Ratel) aspect for the class, currently I am using the wolverine for that aspect.
this was not at all inspired by this meme or anime character.
I'd rather not have yet another MAD class but I'm in the minority. Anyway the enhancement bonuses granted by the minor aspects are terribly unimaginative when you could have used much more thematic bonuses in their place. Frankly I'm not a fan of the aspects, didn't like it on the hunter and I don't like it on the shifter.
If you ask me you should just ditch the idea of minor and major forms and have aspects be some form of improving "mantle" if you would that improves both your base form and wild shape. You don't necessarily turn into the animal but they grant you features and abilities of the animal along with cosmetic changes.
I'll admit that my math is probably skewed since I only have eyes for the elementalist, who runs around with armor and an amulet of natural armor (since I just use the scimitar).
The shifters that actually wildshape probably feel far more of a squeeze due to AC, so they are tempted into a monk-like turtle.
So I am satisfied with a 16/14/14/mental-stat-14 type spread. The low level of mad that you see with the 6 level melee casters usually.
EDIT- adding in more suggestions: For the 'advanced aspect training' suggestion, how about trading only part of the aspect for options? The partial switch out would be like the various things you see with the sorcerer/blood rager bloodlines (such as the option to trade the first power for a familiar, or the wildbloodlines).
This would allow the player to retain the wildshape option, while trading out a potentially undesirable minor aspect.
A few limited use SLAs might be an appropriate trade for this kind of thing.
well liked my shifter belt idea anyways :P
I feel like this particulary affects the Elementalist who wants to start using two minor aspects at once all the time once they are level 9, and they only have aspects which grant enhancement bonuses. So like pick earth (acid resist is rare) and air (flying might come in handy) and buy a strength belt.
The combo of earth and air is even better than that- how many things can you think of that resist both acid and electricity?
Fire and cold often see enemies that can resist both- creatures that are resistant to temperature changes in general. But a lot of the things that might resist acid don't really have a justification to resist electricity except "it resists everything" (but even really high CR monsters usually only resist three of the elements; and those are usually hot/cold/one of the other two).
Although I am not sure if I would use the minor aspects, even then. While regular shifters only use their swift action for their claws (a minor benefit to damage and situational anti DR tool), the elementalist constantly uses the action to get their main damage mechanic up. While the aspect lasts the entire fight, it still requires you to take up the first round, and elemental strike is enough damage where I think that even a move+attack is attractive.
I also worry about surprise attacks when you use aspects- having 3 less AC and 60 less HP makes you more vulnerable to ambushes. The hunter version of this mechanic was better, since they could keep it applied constantly for their AC (who ate up extra equipment costs).
Although I am not sure if I would use the minor aspects, even then.
I could see using the minor aspects, just not for combat: Use them to buff skill/ability checks or when you know you'll be needing saves. For instance, if the rogue is playing with a nasty looking poison gas trap it might be a good time for more con or you find a gate that needs lifting and you bump up your str.
Although I am not sure if I would use the minor aspects, even then.I could see using the minor aspects, just not for combat: Use them to buff skill/ability checks or when you know you'll be needing saves. For instance, if the rogue is playing with a nasty looking poison gas trap it might be a good time for more con or you find a gate that needs lifting and you bump up your str.
Yeah, but then I would prefer grabbing a belt. I know this is nice early on, when magic items are scarce... but eventually, a constant version of this ability that doesn't eat up action economy is a better deal.
The enhancement bonus minor aspects would need to be reworked if they are to be made relevant. The simplest answer would be to make them size bonuses instead- that way, it replaces the bonuses you would normally get from wildshape. And it would actually make the shifter's wild shape get an edge over the druid's-since the druid's wild shape is dependant on actual size- you can't be a medium sized raptor without going with a much lower bonus than some huge allosaurus. In comparison, the shifter could turn into a medium sized major form and not experience any problems.
This could actually make them more versatile in terms of environment- they could be suited to fights in tight alleyways and dungeon corridors. Which could be made to fit the flavor- the shifters are often the agents of druidic circles, and might be the ones they ask to scout out offending cities. So having their full powers no matter their size and the fast transformation from that one feat would allow them to easily move into action when they sneak in and find targets/pursuers.
At that you could just make them un-typed. or make up a type for them.
I feel like the riders the elementalist gets at 9th level for combining two effects are probably worth the swift action considering you get stat boosts too. At least stuff like 20% miss chance for ranged attacks, all adjacent terrain is difficult for others, everyone within 20' takes 1d6 nonlethal/round, and maybe the volcano one.
lemeres: I don't disagree with you that the aspects could/should be more relevant/useful. I was commenting on non-combat uses for the current ones.
Belts: I figured that you'd be bumping up your favorite stat with the belt, so there could be some use in using an aspect for those physical stats the belt doesn't cover even if it's just for non-combat skills/saves. This is especially true if you're able to buff all three stats with aspects.
lemeres: I don't disagree with you that the aspects could/should be more relevant/useful. I was commenting on non-combat uses for the current ones.
Belts: I figured that you'd be bumping up your favorite stat with the belt, so there could be some use in using an aspect for those physical stats the belt doesn't cover even if it's just for non-combat skills/saves. This is especially true if you're able to buff all three stats with aspects.
Yeah, you can certainly do that with the belt for a while- that is a good options until about mid levels. But eventually, you start to get the wealth and a high enough level that you should really look into just getting the belt.
It just gets to me that minor aspects like that are not future proofed in the same way you see in the various divine bond style mechanics. They work well to give you simple number buffs early on (giving paladins an option against neutral opponents), and later you can turn the extra enhancement bonus into useful stuff like ghost touch or holy.
that is a good options until about mid levels.
I'm sure my outlook is different than yours as My games tend to end at those mid levels: @10-12
It just gets to me that minor aspects like that are not future proofed in the same way you see in the various divine bond style mechanics.
*nods* I'm right there with you. Myself, I'd rather see the aspect bonus to stats change type as you level instead of increasing the number. For instance, make it a size bonus at 8th and then a inherent or sacred bonus at 15. This keeps the bonuses useful after you get the belts. A +2 that stacked is MUCH more useful that a +6 that doesn't.
Size: I'm thinking size at 8th mainly as an offset to the penalty for large/tiny or buffing con while wildshaped and a straight buff out of it.
Wait-wait-wait, does Chimeric Aspect consumes double Shifter Aspect time if two aspects are chosen? And so it needs two different swift action to activate?
I thought that a 9th level Shifter could use Chimeric Aspect to gain benefits of two different aspects, using 1 minute increment (as it were only one aspect active) and with a single swift action
At that you could just make them un-typed. or make up a type for them.
Seconding this. Maybe size boni? Like the kineticist class after the playtest
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I wonder if the best thing for Shifter aspects would be to make them size bonuses instead of enhancement bonuses (a la Elemental Overflow which gives you size bonuses to physical attributes without changing your size). I mean, the reason the bear or tiger or whatever makes you powerful is in part because those things are big.
I don't think making the shifter the rare martial that doesn't want to be the target of Enlarge Person would be an issue.
Wait-wait-wait, does Chimeric Aspect consumes double Shifter Aspect time if two aspects are chosen? And so it needs two different swift action to activate?
I thought that a 9th level Shifter could use Chimeric Aspect to gain benefits of two different aspects, using 1 minute increment (as it were only one aspect active) and with a single swift action.
Honestly that's exactly how I read it. It doesn't say that you use more charges with Chimeric, it just says you can pick two aspects instead of one when you use a minor form.
Chimeric Aspect (Su): At 9th level, when a shifter uses her shifter aspect ability to take on a minor form, she can choose two aspects and assume the minor form of each aspect.
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I wonder if the best thing for Shifter aspects would be to make them size bonuses instead of enhancement bonuses (a la Elemental Overflow which gives you size bonuses to physical attributes without changing your size). I mean, the reason the bear or tiger or whatever makes you powerful is in part because those things are big.
I don't think making the shifter the rare martial that doesn't want to be the target of Enlarge Person would be an issue.
I'm pretty sure several forms are already getting size bonuses as part of wild shape, so there might be some conflict there.
I'm pretty sure several forms are already getting size bonuses as part of wild shape, so there might be some conflict there.I wonder if the best thing for Shifter aspects would be to make them size bonuses instead of enhancement bonuses (a la Elemental Overflow which gives you size bonuses to physical attributes without changing your size). I mean, the reason the bear or tiger or whatever makes you powerful is in part because those things are big.
I don't think making the shifter the rare martial that doesn't want to be the target of Enlarge Person would be an issue.
But you don't need to use a minor aspect to wild shape, so these are separate abilities.
I'm pretty sure several forms are already getting size bonuses as part of wild shape, so there might be some conflict there.
There are but only 1 bonus at a time, so Chimeric Aspect at 9th could still be 100% effective in wildshape by boosting the other 2 and since the highest bonus is +4 for wildshape, once the 15th bump comes into effect even the bonus from wildshape is less than the increase.
But you don't need to use a minor aspect to wild shape, so these are separate abilities.I'm pretty sure several forms are already getting size bonuses as part of wild shape, so there might be some conflict there.I wonder if the best thing for Shifter aspects would be to make them size bonuses instead of enhancement bonuses (a la Elemental Overflow which gives you size bonuses to physical attributes without changing your size). I mean, the reason the bear or tiger or whatever makes you powerful is in part because those things are big.
I don't think making the shifter the rare martial that doesn't want to be the target of Enlarge Person would be an issue.
And with Minor Form as a size bonus it would overlap wildshape size penalties like strength when morphing in a small animal, or dexterity penalty when turning into large one.
Honestly that's exactly how I read it. It doesn't say that you use more charges with Chimeric, it just says you can pick two aspects instead of one when you use a minor form.
Ok, sometimes I have hard times reading in English...
@Roivan its Not +1 hour, its literally Shifter Level + Wisdom Bonus uses per day, at lvl 9 w/ an 18 in Wisdom and a +6 Headband if you nix the 8 hrs of sleep, you can stay shifted all day long if you want. BUT the purposes of the change isn't about staying in the same form, its so that you can change your form more easily on the fly. As it stands the Druid Version, doesn't really allow that, because of how FEW uses per day it actually has.
PS: I know I for one am building for Wisdom, because I want the Wild Shape feats that have high Wisdom requirements, more Wild Shapes per day, and a higher AC Bonus from Defensive Instinct.
Hell I have a lvl 12 Rogue/Alchemist (that I keep forgetting to use the Extracts on >.> I kinda treat her more like a Rogue, despite having far more levels in Alch >.>) that has Int and Dex in the mid 20s.
As for you saying you can stay in it all day. With an 18 Wisdom (+4), and +6 headband (+3) that is +7 hours; you'd have to be level 17 (or 11 if you didn't want to stay in form while sleeping 8 hours; which personally I'd rather stay in animal form especially if it gets a perception bonus) to stay in wild shape all day with those stats. Where as by 17th level as it is in the actual book; you'd have 7 uses per day each of those 17 hours. By the time you're 8th level normally you could be in Wild Shape all day; even if only 3 uses (or 4 with a druid vestament).
9+7=16; 24-8=16
So my calculations are correct, for not sleeping in shape. Also the only shapes that are getting a bonus to Perception are: Corgi (for the hearing bonus), Falcon(but that's perception), and a bunch of others get Scent(but I'm not gonna count on my sense of smell when I'm sleeping). So I don't really see a bonus to your perception when you're sleeping by staying in form, unless you're gonna wild shape into a Corgi every night before bed, if you even take Corgi.
And again I counter your preference for Multihour wild shapes, with my being able to change between forms far more often.
As for the whole item problem, yeah I can see the problem and your point there.
Also I LOVE your idea for the Aspects, that makes tons of sense, could still work your Wild Shape off of the Aspects, but gives you Far more diversity in form! I honestly LOVE it. Though I honestly think the Evolution points should be a Separate ability that can work on you BECOMING the Chimera, an animal of Disparate parts..... Maybe make it so that certain Aspects can take certain Evolutions baseline, and when you get Chimeric, Greater Chimeric, and Final Aspect, you can combine a certain amount of evolutions from your choice of another aspect(then 3, then 5) can take, and add them to your beast. This is An AWESOME Idea!!!
Another idea I was thinking of, was that when you're in your Major Form, maybe allow your Minor Form to be constantly active during the duration without using time from your Minor Aspect.
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...if you're an oozemorph and are in a pail, is the pail considered armor? Would it have to be wooden as a result? What if there's a hole in the bucket...?
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Totally should count as being in full plate (including nonproficiency penalties). Ooze's should also be proficient in the use of all Improvised Armir (buckets, boxes... etc. But that would be sensible, and this is Pathfinder.
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I'm not PDT, dear Shaven, dear Shaven
I'm not PDT, dear Shaven, DT...
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I'm suddenly thinking of encounters with oozes with an oozemorph in the party.
"Blrbl blb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbblbbbbbbbbbbb"
"It's so sad, they've lost their cohesion and they aren't listening to me. You're going to have to put them down... be gentle, okay?"
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Thanks to the errata you don't need the bucket anymore. You get whatever land speed your race had in it's basic form. However you would need to be a small race to even use the bucket effectively if I'm looking at Compression right. (5 levels into the class and I've still never used this ability.) Otherwise it just ain't fun to fear the DM's damage rolls.
races without Darkvision handle dark areas with a simple torch
LOL If only an oozemorph could HOLD a torch...
you would need to be a small race to even use the bucket effectively if I'm looking at Compression right.
Your best bet is an armored backpack [or an open bag of holding].
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Can Oozemorphs use skills while in blobform? One can generate weapons from its bodies, but it doesn't say anything about dextrous hands or something. The only thing it retains is its base senses, so it should be able to use passive skills like Sense Motive and Perception, but stuff like Intimidate is doubtful and Diplomacy or any of the physical skills are completely unusable.
Can Oozemorphs use skills while in blobform?
Depends... Does the skill require any tools or communication? If so, unlikely. Passives like Sense Motive, Perception and Know skills? Maybe, but is it going to matter when you can't let anyone know what you figured out? Acrobatics, swim and climb? Questionable too. It doesn't have to hands to climb and can a legless creature run for a running jump?
Pretty much you're a skill-less puddle... :P
I feel like I would allow Disable Device in ooze-form. If you can manifest a sword out of your ooze, you can probably manifest a lockpick too. Stealth, Climb (redundant), Swim, and Escape Artist (should you need to roll this? How does one tie up an ooze?) should all be okay. Acrobatics should be either a "no" or a "you can just do this" depending on what it is- an ooze can't jump but also won't lose footing on a slippery surface. I would allow an acrobatics roll to avoid provoking to represent just flowing out of the way of any attacks.
Problem with most skills is that the oozemorph can't really do anything that involves communicating. So even if you can identify the monster with a knowledge roll, you can't tell anybody.
I think my question is: what is an oozemorph to do if it falls in a 10' pit after it's used it's "assume a humanoid form" for the day other than wait for the next day or someone to come down and scoop it up? It has no 'hands' to find handholds to try to climb, it can't 'hold' a rope/ladder...
EDIT: I meant to add 'at levels 1-3, before it gets climb speed'.