Changes to the Shifter

[Roivan]

GodsBlister wrote:

The problem isn't that the class isn't a hilarious Dip. The problem is that the class is flat out horrible at the only things it can do, while not ever getting better at staying alive and contributing as a class in any fashion that would matter for any AP, or most player campaigns even.

Maybe for you the problem isn't about dipping; but there have been multiple people that made the comment about it not having anything to dip for. Hence why the comment wasn't made in direct relation to a single person's quote.

But my experience in playing the class (Not the oozemorph archetype); and maybe you mean the archetype with your comment; but I'll take you for the word you used; class; is you are wrong. My damage is on par with a ranger in the party. The character has far more versatility than other classes/archetypes supposedly far better (in this case the Beastkin Berserker Barbarian) and damage is similar. I rebuilt the character when UW came out; because I found the Beastkin Berserker to actually be limited to only being good for combat. Maybe you are looking for something that you can min-max or powergame with; but that should NEVER be what you base a judgement on of something and whether it needs fixed.

Graystone wrote:

Not being able to speak because of being in ooze form is no different than a character that is mute, or one that stays all their time in wild shape. No it's not... It's like a mute without arms that can't use any equipment or meaningfully communicate or even lift/hold objects... It LITERALLY can only attack and move.

So it can form weaponry for natural attacks but cannot form arms those natural attacks are on... um ok... nope it doesn't say it's reach is 0 ft which would be the only rational way your statement would make sense.

So what is sneaking? Moving last I checked; does anything say they cannot use skills? No? So they can do other things than attack and move. Maybe the problem isn't so much the class as it is you lacking in thinking outside the box. Don't see anything saying they cannot interact with physical objects either; maybe they cannot grasp things; but you don't need to grasp a door to open it unless it is latched; or grasp an item to push it. IF it wasn't supposed to be able to do any of that, it would say it couldn't interact with physical objects at all.

Graystone wrote:

They have MULTIPLE one hour blocks of use and can ACTUALLY do things in either form. An ape can point, a tiger can scratch out a message, a bird can pick up a wand... and at worst, without changing shape, they STILL have humanoid form and can use items. it's not even a little comparable to oozemorphs.

If a tiger can scratch out a message, so can a shifter with morphic weapon; you know that thing it can use to do slashing or piercing damage same as a claw? Or are you just dismissing that too based on you not liking it?

Graystone wrote:

Why don't you try to actually play and experience the class/archetype I HAVE... GodsBlister has... Have YOU?

Oh look you're being dismissive of others again and ignoring what they've said repeatedly (and even gave specific examples), as well as trying to answer for other people. Even though you've never said in the past you've played it and have actually made enough comments eluding that you wouldn't even try it.

[PossibleCabbage]

So hypothetically if we were to delete this entire clause:

Quote:

However, she has no magic item slots and she cannot benefit from armor; cast spells; hold objects; speak; or use any magic item that requires activation, is held, or is worn on the body.

What unreasonable things would an oozemorph be able to do? It would make it much more playable, but could anything potentially game breaking be done? What is the minimum standard being an ooze would be troubling enough that you'd be unwilling to do it all the time, but not so bad that you're just unwilling to do it at all.

I mean, being immune to crits isn't that great when your HP is 14 and your AC is 12- normal hits hit often and hard enough to be a problem for you.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Everybody's at about an 11, when this conversation really only needs people at about a 4.

[Roivan]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

So hypothetically if we were to delete this entire clause:

Quote:

However, she has no magic item slots and she cannot benefit from armor; cast spells; hold objects; speak; or use any magic item that requires activation, is held, or is worn on the body.

What unreasonable things would an oozemorph be able to do? It would make it much more playable, but could anything potentially game breaking be done? What is the minimum standard being an ooze would be troubling enough that you'd be unwilling to do it all the time, but not so bad that you're just unwilling to do it at all.

I mean, being immune to crits isn't that great when your HP is 14 and your AC is 12- normal hits hit often and hard enough to be a problem for you.

Removing that would create a game balance issue I think. Getting immunity to flanking (without the normal uncanny dodge caveat), critical hits, and precision damage at 1st level with no sort of downside would be imbalanced. They'd have to move it to a different level if they removed that sentence. Also by removing that your AC is probably no longer 12 as you'd get armor with that section gone.

[GodsBlister]

Yes, I meant archetype but said class because the Oozemorph is so bizarrely different from the Shifter base class that it feels like a different but similar class altogether. And the way the morphic weapons work is that they form appendages with weapons on the end of them from any part of it's body. I base this upon the one image given for the archetype from the book, where the she is crafting a Morningstar from her arm. However the problem is that they cannot hold anything while in their base form. Which seems odd considering that they can create a hardened weapon of any B/P/S shape. It also has the problem of not being able to utilize any skills that need you to speak to another character/player/npc. Not being able to hold objects means you can't commit to a Strength check to lift something for another player, or even carry party members away from a near death encounter.

While being mute is similar to the experience an oozemorph has, limiting their drawbacks to just that is not really fair to the archetype as they've effectively got Mute, Lame, and the inability to use magic within their 23 hour scope of horror. The shifter itself as a whole is not in the most terrible of spots, but it is pretty dire compared to even its flavor counterpart, the Paladin.

Edit: I don't mean to be so fervent in this discussion, I just would like the archetype and the class it's a part of to be in a spot where someone actually wants to pick them for their own merits. The Shifter is getting there with the errata. On the other tendril, the oozemorph has a ways to go before it is worth picking up in spite of its downsides.

[PossibleCabbage]

But all that "immunity to crits, flanking, precision damage" is kinda meaningless if you're so defenseless in combat that you wouldn't be an ooze then unless you absolutely had to.

Like if I'm stuck in fluidic form in combat, my preferred position is "hiding". I would gladly trade immunity to critical hits, flanking, and precision damage for speaking, armor, a few primarily defensive item slots, and the ability to manipulate objects (but not wield weapons).

[GodsBlister]

Honestly, I would too. Without any good AC scores, I have to lean on crit immunity to not die in every encounter. Using up all the healing the party would distribute on average to each other on myself alone is just bonkers to think about for anything other than maybe a Barbarian in my opinion.

Playing an oozemorph as a melee frontliner doesn't really work too well from my experience.

[Roivan]

GodsBlister wrote:

Yes, I meant archetype but said class because the Oozemorph is so bizarrely different from the Shifter base class that it feels like a different but similar class altogether. And the way the morphic weapons work is that they form appendages with weapons on the end of them from any part of it's body. I base this upon the one image given for the archetype from the book, where the she is crafting a Morningstar from her arm. However the problem is that they cannot hold anything while in their base form. Which seems odd considering that they can create a hardened weapon of any B/P/S shape. It also has the problem of not being able to utilize any skills that need you to speak to another character/player/npc. Not being able to hold objects means you can't commit to a Strength check to lift something for another player, or even carry party members away from a near death encounter.

While being mute is similar to the experience an oozemorph has, limiting their drawbacks to just that is not really fair to the archetype as they've effectively got Mute, Lame, and the inability to use magic within their 23 hour scope of horror. The shifter itself as a whole is not in the most terrible of spots, but it is pretty dire compared to even its flavor counterpart, the Paladin.

Where are you (and a few others) getting it's counterpart is the Paladin? I don't get anything in their description, not even in the book synopsis, says paladin to me. I get more that they are a savage warrior (not as per the NPC class)that specializes in using animal forms and natural weapons to strike. Hence the class using of some monk features along with druid. And maybe this is part of the problem; a disconnect that some are seeing it as the 'Nature Paladin' but it wasn't meant to be.

Especially as really; the Paladin isn't a great class to use for comparison since they can get pretty broken with little effort. Beyond imbalance issues of a paladin, it ends up being like you're trying to compare a Sorcerer and Wizard. Yes they both cast arcane spells (both Paladin & Shifter are physical combatant types); but other than that they are very different. And it becomes unfair to try to compare them.

----

Also I think if people actually gave ideas of how to fix it (which I've given multiple ideas), it'd be far more constructive than just saying "It's bad, change it." which seems to be what most are saying. They concentrate on what's wrong instead of how to improve it.

[GodsBlister]

It's from Paizo themselves. Their advertisements for Ultimate Wilderness have portrayed the Shifter as the Druid's Paladin from what I've seen. I cannot find where I saw those words said at the moment, but I distinctly remember it being printed on the internet somewhere. Its part of what helped me decide to purchase Ultimate Wilderness to see what was in store for the new class.

[Roivan]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

But all that "immunity to crits, flanking, precision damage" is kinda meaningless if you're so defenseless in combat that you wouldn't be an ooze then unless you absolutely had to.

Like if I'm stuck in fluidic form in combat, my preferred position is "hiding". I would gladly trade immunity to critical hits, flanking, and precision damage for speaking, armor, a few primarily defensive item slots, and the ability to manipulate objects (but not wield weapons).

Well then it sounds like what they need to do is move fluidic body to a later level; since the idea is that it's a major downside. Make it where in learning how oozes work (i.e. at a later level, maybe 4? Which gives you a base +4 Fort save so ups the chance to make the DC 15 Fort save) they gain the drawback of their natural form being an ooze. It makes it feel like a curse or something messed up in learning to emulate them. And now they have to learn how to not be an ooze. But even with those immunities being meaningless, it sets a precedent for gaining those at 1st level, a bad one if they lose the drawback.

Plus the reason they have those immunities IS that they are an ooze and those are the immunities Oozes get. It's staying with prior rules.

Even if they did moved Fluidic Body to say 4th level; there is nothing that says they cannot keep Compression at 1st, and I don't see Morphic Weaponry needing much change either; maybe just a shift in paragraph order. As since you're always humanoid before level 4, you have enough control to create fleshy/oozy appendages.

[PossibleCabbage]

It seems the Shifter is not really the nature-themed Paladin, it is instead more akin to the nature-themed (chained) monk.

Don't get me wrong, I like the monk a lot- it just needed a lot of work to get it up to speed after its initial incarnation.

[Roivan]

GodsBlister wrote:

It's from Paizo themselves. Their advertisements for Ultimate Wilderness have portrayed the Shifter as the Druid's Paladin from what I've seen. I cannot find where I saw those words said at the moment, but I distinctly remember it being printed on the internet somewhere. Its part of what helped me decide to purchase Ultimate Wilderness to see what was in store for the new class.

"A new 20-level base class, the shifter, puts animalistic powers into the hands—or claws—of player characters and villains alike, with new class features derived from animalistic attributes."

"The shifter, a new character class that harnesses untamed forces to change shape and bring a heightened level of savagery to the battlefield!"

That is the quotes from the book synopsis from the page on the paizo site; and is the only thing I can see of Paizo describing the class' feel; outside of the actual Shifter description in the book.

[Roivan]

@PossibleCabbage you asked if something was breakable for them getting rid of that sentence; I thought of something else. Giving an actual Ooze, Gelatinous Cube, etc. levels in that class without it all that gear they are carrying around inside them now gives them bonuses.

But also it goes against prior rules of magic item slots based on form. Currently there is no amorphous blob listed for magic items slots; meaning they get none. If they start giving them some one place it opens the door for others.

[PossibleCabbage]

Roivan wrote:

Well then it sounds like what they need to do is move fluidic body to a later level; since the idea is that it's a major downside. Make it where in learning how oozes work (i.e. at a later level, maybe 4? Which gives you a base +4 Fort save so ups the chance to make the DC 15 Fort save) they gain the drawback of their natural form being an ooze. It makes it feel like a curse or something messed up in learning to emulate them. And now they have to learn how to not be an ooze. But even with those immunities being meaningless, it sets a precedent for gaining those at 1st level, a bad one if they lose the drawback.

Plus the reason they have those immunities IS that they are an ooze and those are the immunities Oozes get. It's staying with prior rules.

Even if they did moved Fluidic Body to say 4th level; there is nothing that says they cannot keep Compression at 1st, and I don't see Morphic Weaponry needing much change either; maybe just a shift in paragraph order. As since you're always humanoid before level 4, you have enough control to create fleshy/oozy appendages.

I guess my question then is- At what level is "Immunity to crits, flanking, and precision damage" worth giving up your armor, amulet, belt, headband, cloak, shield, and ring and whatever enhancement bonuses you have on them. Is there such a level?

[GodsBlister]

As much as I remember those words, it is possible I misremember where I heard them.

And I would be more accepting of being cursed to not use equipment in the way the Oozemorph is written if it meant you got small bonuses to offset the amount of stuff you are losing out on most of the time. They get too little for giving up all the Shifter class features they lose. As well as not having a capstone ability since they lose Final Aspect.

[Roivan]

GodsBlister wrote:

As much as I remember those words, it is possible I misremember where I heard them.

And I would be more accepting of being cursed to not use equipment in the way the Oozemorph is written if it meant you got small bonuses to offset the amount of stuff you are losing out on most of the time. They get too little for giving up all the Shifter class features they lose. As well as not having a capstone ability since they lose Final Aspect.

There is the small bonuses from Alter Self, Beast Shape I & II, and Giant Shape I; plus without the limitation that the base Shifter class gets on variety/type.

And as for things like Chimeric Aspect; even though it's listed under Fluidic Body, Morphic Weaponry gives them extra natural attacks beyond what their assumed form gives. So maybe they should have listed those for it instead of where they did. But over all an archetype isn't a direct power equivalent exchange for each new ability and what is changed. It's one reason why you're not supposed to stop half way through an archetype and go back to the class. It's the archetype as a whole that is supposed to balanced in comparison to the class. Also Fluid technically replaces the capstone as written ("all improves of shifter aspect" would mean Final Aspect). They just now need to add that "at will" like they did for the base class.

@PossibleCabbage Not sure; but I think they're expecting people not to stay in their ooze form. Maybe they should give them a light or medium fortification equivalent when not in ooze form, to reflect that their body still seems to be not quite solid (ie Compression, Morphic Weaponry, DR).

[Dragonborn3]

It's from a post in the discussion thread where someone is talking about James' description making them sounding like nature paladins. Sad that such a description failed to be accurate.

[GodsBlister]

Roivan, I know about those bonuses. What I'm asking for is something to help the archetype survive low level play. They get crit immunity, sure but that doesn't matter when you die in 2 hits due to your opponents ripping through your 12-14 AC in the base form. These bonuses wouldn't work while using Fluidic Form, in case they made it harder to balance. It just doesn't make sense for a melee character such as this to have no means of feasibly defending itself. In all my 5 levels of playing an Oozemorph, I have been attacked by 1 attack that hasn't shredded through the DR they have.

[graystone]

GodsBlister wrote:

As much as I remember those words, it is possible I misremember where I heard them.

it was in one of the preview threads they made.

Roivan wrote:

So it can form weaponry for natural attacks but cannot form arms those natural attacks are on... um ok... nope it doesn't say it's reach is 0 ft which would be the only rational way your statement would make sense.

There is NO indication that they have ANY fine manipulation or even rough manipulation. In fact that can't even pick up or hold or move an item. All you are allowed to do is attack or move.

Roivan wrote:

So what is sneaking?

I'd count that as moving sneaky or cowering behind capable teammates.

Roivan wrote:

does anything say they cannot use skills?

It has a long list of what you can't do: you either can't use most skills or have no meaningful way to communicate what you found out. So you sit behind cover and hope monsters don't find you until you can change again.

Roivan wrote:

So they can do other things than attack and move.

It's a moot point is what they can do isn't meaningful.

Roivan wrote:

Maybe the problem isn't so much the class as it is you lacking in thinking outside the box.

LOL You clearly don't know me: I'm very happy coloring outside the lines and refluffing things: That's different that here as the box has been nailed shut and a boulder has been put on top of it by the rules in place.

Roivan wrote:

Don't see anything saying they cannot interact with physical objects either

Oh, I never said you can't interact: You are perfectly able to attack whatever you wish...

Roivan wrote:

If a tiger can scratch out a message, so can a shifter with morphic weapon; you know that thing it can use to do slashing or piercing damage same as a claw? Or are you just dismissing that too based on you not liking it?

We are only told what it can do: form weapons to attack. Then we look at the base abilities and we see that it can't speak, hold, use activate of wear items or perform ANY kind of spellcasting. If you can convince a DM that will allow you to write, more power to you. The DM's I've showed the archetype thought that meant your manipulation ability was nil to none.

Roivan wrote:

Oh look you're being dismissive of others again and ignoring what they've said repeatedly (and even gave specific examples), as well as trying to answer for other people. Even though you've never said in the past you've played it and have actually made enough comments eluding that you wouldn't even try it.

#1 Dismissive? I dismissed your assumption they we hadn't played the class/archetype.

#2 GodsBlister and I have previously said we played the class so i don't see how 'answering for him' is an issue. If it wasn't in this thread it was in another shifter thread [it's hard to tell them apart anymore].
#3 I NEVER alluded/inferred I never played it. What I've been saying is that it'a a trainwreck and should never be player under 6th level: this is AFTER trying it [it's bad. really,really bad].

[Painful Bugger]

The oozemorph reminds me an awful lot of Tensei Shi-tara Slime datta ken. It's a manga where some dude is reborn in another world in the form of a slime and he pretty much sucks in the same way the oozemorph does at low levels while later optionally getting the ability to turn into a human form that's more powerful. I'm not saying this is where the influence came from but I've seen enough archtypes that were way too blatant about their attempted subtlety to not smirk at them.

Quite frankly I rather them ditch the human form all together and just let you be an ooze that steadily gets more powerful, maybe getting stuff like engulf, corrosive touch, and the ability to vibrate and shape oneself to create noise. You can solve alot of problems just by saying that the oozemorph retains the same magic item slots as the based form and they have pseudopods with which to manipulate things and attack with. Or maybe just make an archtype based around the spells ooze form I - III.

Edit: I see that there's an auto-censor that doesn't recognize Japanese words so I put a dash in the middle of it.

[graystone]

Painful Bugger wrote:

Shi-tara Slime datta ken

Now if only the archetype allowed to to engulf targets and take their form and abilities... ;)

Painful Bugger wrote:

Quite frankly I rather them ditch the human form all together and just let you be an ooze that steadily gets more powerful, maybe getting stuff like engulf, corrosive touch, and the ability to vibrate and shape oneself to create noise. You can solve alot of problems just by saying that the oozemorph retains the same magic item slots as the based form and they have pseudopods with which to manipulate things and attack with. Or maybe just make an archtype based around the spells ooze form I - III.

I wouldn't mind a total ooze focus as long as there was a change for quality of life at low levels: actual communication abilities, realistic/comparable AC ability to interact meaningfully with items, ect.

[GodsBlister]

There's just too large a disconnect between it's established flavor and mechanics for everyone to be happy with how the archetype ends up. I'll be happy if it ever gets enough to become legal for PFS play. I'll also be fine with whatever direction they double down on for the archetype. Because it seems weirdly split between wanting to interact with others and being terrified of goblins and level 1 wizards.

[PossibleCabbage]

I'd say of all the archetypes in Ultimate Wilderness, other than the Evil-Only ones, the Oozemorph is probably least likely to get the okay from PFS.

Not just because of all the rules issues, but also- Why does the Pathfinder Society need oozes?

[Wei Ji the Learner]

The more important question is:

Why DOESN'T the PFS need oozes?

They have pretty much every goshdarn other being on their payroll?

...a thing that I am very, very grateful for, especially tengu for Reasons.

[Malachandra]

Seems to me like the Oozemorph is unplayable as of now. I really don't mind that, for three reasons:

1. Paizo has done a fantastic job of listening to (often unnecessarily aggressive) criticism and fixing issues. The Shifter is now both playable and fun, even if a few tweaks would still help.

2. Ultimate Wilderness had some awesome content. The Mastering the Wild chapter in particular was really cool.

3. And this is really important to me. I want Paizo to experiment. The idea behind the Oozemorph was inventive and flavorful, and I applaud the designer for that. The mechanics didn't quite work as intended, but that's fine. If you're trying to push the boundaries, a few tries are going to go wrong. I'm really OK with that. Keep 'em coming!

[Wei Ji the Learner]

You may not mind it, but some folks actually subscribed because of the original push on this product.

And some of those folks wish to see it fixed so it's playable even in PFS!.

It's not a huge hurdle to leap, unless one wants to make it one.

[The Thing From Another World]

I always wanted to run a Oozemorph character based of this movie character. I would call him Fluid Blobomite. Yes I confess to having weird character designs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96Y24a0cyCE.

" Never in the history of the Realms has there ever been such devastation"

[Chess Pwn]

GodsBlister wrote:

As much as I remember those words, it is possible I misremember where I heard them.

I know at the PaizoCon Dinner event last year their introduction had a slide that said, "Martial class with full base attack progression. Shifters are to druids as paladins are to clerics"

Which is saying it's the druid's paladin.

[Ravingdork]

GodsBlister wrote:

With any sort of travel, it just isn't even worth attempting the Fort saves. It's flat out better to just stick in your base form and not do anything until combat begins. Which is a real garbage way to have to play. Most people don't want to sit on their thumbs while everyone role plays.

Finally! A valid excuse to sit on my thumbs while everyone role plays! I can't wait to try an oozemorph! :D

[Wayne Bradbury]

Chess Pwn wrote:

GodsBlister wrote:

As much as I remember those words, it is possible I misremember where I heard them.

I know at the PaizoCon Dinner event last year their introduction had a slide that said, "Martial class with full base attack progression. Shifters are to druids as paladins are to clerics"

Which is saying it's the druid's paladin.

Certainly sounds like something that should have 4th level casting.

[PossibleCabbage]

Chess Pwn wrote:

GodsBlister wrote:

As much as I remember those words, it is possible I misremember where I heard them.

I know at the PaizoCon Dinner event last year their introduction had a slide that said, "Martial class with full base attack progression. Shifters are to druids as paladins are to clerics"

Which is saying it's the druid's paladin.

I'm wondering what parallels to the Paladin they were thinking of when they said that. Since when you think of the PF Paladin what comes to mind:

- Righteous Warrior for an ideal
- Bound by a code that requires them to be always vigilant.
- Strong chassis absolutely packed to the gills with class features.
- Class features coalesce constructively in such a way as to create a strong combat identity (i.e. very tough combatant who is particularly effective against certain enemies.)

How many of those things are present in the shifter? I guess you're bound to the same code as the druid, but "don't wear metal armor or teach anyone druidic" is a lot less restrictive than the Paladin code as those are easy things to not do, you just refrain from saying you do them, whereas the Paladin code can be tricky. Seems like the Shifter's conduct restrictions are more like how a Cleric, Warpriest, or Inquisitor has to abide by their deity's rules.

Maybe the issue is that the shifter's code can't be as restrictive as the Paladin's because "really good person" is much easier to imagine than "really neutral person."

[Cavall]

They were likely thinking along the lines of "paladin is a martial holy guy. Shifter is a martial nature guy."

[Dragonborn3]

Which is weird since we have the ranger and hunter, but the base shifter wasn't even competitive with those classes for the most part.

[Cavall]

I honestly just see shifter as a hunter with no pet that traded spells for full BAB. Aspects are just hunters focus, they really are.

[PossibleCabbage]

Cavall wrote:

I honestly just see shifter as a hunter with no pet that traded spells for full BAB. Aspects are just hunters focus, they really are.

I feel like trading an animal companion, and spells, and bonus feats for full BAB and (limited) wild-shape is at the very least vastly overestimating the value of full vs. 3/4 BAB.

[Dragon78]

If they wanted the shifter's powers to be different then standard wild shape and if they wanted it to be simpler why not make the aspects only partial transformations. So basically instead of changing into an animal(or other creature based archetypes) you only partially change and gain abilities, traits, etc. like a template.

Examples:

Porcupine
Natural attacks: tail slap(1d6 base)
Senses: low-light vision
Defenses: quills
Mobility: burrow 10ft
Special: Throw quills

Wolf
Natural attacks: bite(1d6 base) + trip
Senses: low-light vision, scent
Defenses: +1 natural armor
Mobility: +20ft land speed
Special: trip, +4 survival

Shark
Natural attacks: bite(1d6 base) + bleed
Senses: blindsense 30ft(underwater only),keen scent
Defenses: +1 natural armor
Mobility: swim 60ft
Special: aquatic, amphibious, bleed

Bull
Natural attacks: gore(1d6 base)
Senses: low-light vision
Defenses: +1 natural armor
Mobility: +10 land speed
Special: powerful charge, trample

Falcon
Natural attacks: 2 claws(1d4 base)
Senses: low-light vision
Defenses: evasion
Mobility: fly 60ft(average)
Special: keen sight, +4 perception

Frog
Natural attack: bite(1d4 base) + grab + swallow whole
Senses: low-light vision
Defenses: poison skin
Mobility: swim 30ft
Special: grab, jump, swallow whole, tongue

Bat
Natural attacks: bite(1d4 base) + grab +blood drain
Senses: darkvision 60ft, blindsense 30ft
Defenses: uncanny dodge
Mobility: fly 60ft(average)
Special: blood drain, grab

Monkey
Natural attacks: 2 slams(1d4 base)
Senses: low-light vision
Defenses: deflect arrows
Mobility: climb 3oft
Special: prehensile tail, +4 acrobatics, throw anything

Maybe each aspect grants size bonuses to stats. Also with chimeric aspect you could combine stat bonuses, natural armor bonuses, skill bonuses, etc.

[Painful Bugger]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Cavall wrote:

I honestly just see shifter as a hunter with no pet that traded spells for full BAB. Aspects are just hunters focus, they really are.

I feel like trading an animal companion, and spells, and bonus feats for full BAB and (limited) wild-shape is at the very least vastly overestimating the value of full vs. 3/4 BAB.

Which is why I argue to open up wild shape to be like druid's wild shape. It gives the shifter many options to choose from right from the start, it'd be the one class you wouldn't have to wait for future books to get anywhere near the number of options the shifter has. And the amount of archetypes you could have made from beginning is enough to cover several pages worth of material. Such archetypes could be a giant shifter, magical beast shifter, a dragon shifter, a true ooze shifter, a true elemental shifter, a fey shifter, undead shifter, monstrous humanoid shifter, vermin shifter. And if you want to get creative you can force the dragon and elemental to choose a specific type.

Edit: And a real plant shifter, not that gimped version that can only wild shape minutes per day.

Edit 2: I just looked it up and realized I forgotten that it was in ROUNDS. Rounds per day!? Why? That's so terrible. Who would make such a decision?

[Artificial 20]

For oozemorph, what do people think of this minor tweak for Fluidic Body?

Quote:

Each hour after this duration, the oozemorph must succeed at a DC 10 Fortitude save or revert back to her fluidic body until she rests for at least 8 hours. This save DC increases by 2 for each additional hour spent maintaining the form.

Changed parts bolded. It would fit in the current print-space of the book.

[Dragonborn3]

One thing they could do is remove Oozemorph and then put it in Wilderness Origins. Just a thought. They could still issue errata then so we know what it would be and we'd have a lot more space in the book all of a sudden.

[Cavall]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Cavall wrote:

I honestly just see shifter as a hunter with no pet that traded spells for full BAB. Aspects are just hunters focus, they really are.

I feel like trading an animal companion, and spells, and bonus feats for full BAB and (limited) wild-shape is at the very least vastly overestimating the value of full vs. 3/4 BAB.

I never said it was a good trade.

But let's be honest, it's really what it is, isn't it? A hunter with no companion or casting getting a higher BAB and wild shape.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Dragonborn3 wrote:

One thing they could do is remove Oozemorph and then put it in Wilderness Origins. Just a thought. They could still issue errata then so we know what it would be and we'd have a lot more space in the book all of a sudden.

Here's a crazy thought:

Switch the current Oozemorph to a base character that gets the ability to transform into Oozes, with their current features (morphic weapons, parts of fluidic body, and so on) supplements to their shifted forms.

The now altered shifter actually morphs into an Ooze (hence Oozemorph), instead of being an Ooze by birth (which should be dubbed Oozeborn), with the ability to shift into humanoids, animals, or monstrous humanoids, as a creature entry in a Beastiary should have been.

If that's a bad idea, I'd like to hear the arguments as to why that is...

[GodsBlister]

Honestly it would please both parties, those that want the slime isekai experience and the ones who want to just transform into an ooze temporarily through their abilities. The current oozemorph is too divided in it's focus to amount to much via its own skills. I'd play both of those archetypes.

[Roivan]

While further looking at the Shifter in comparison to similar features of other classes I noticed another inconsistency.

Shifter Claws progression: I realize the devs didn't want the damage from it too high, as there are more ways to improve natural attack damage than manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes; but it increases seemingly randomly. I can think of 4-5 for natural attacks that stack; but only 2 or 3 for unarmed or manufactured weapons. Not counting the normal +# or special abilities like flaming, frost, etc.

But both Brawler & Monk increase at the same ratio of levels to damage increase as 3:4:4:4:4:1, and the War Priest as 4:5:5:5:1; while the shifter is 6:4:2:7 and makes it feel like the bonuses were arbitrarily chosen when to increase, without any sort of even progression. If it was put to the same ratio as the others it'd not be at 1d4 for so long, and have a longer period of 1d8, but also get 2d6 at 20th; which is still below the other classes.

Also looking at Monk for a comparison, it seems strange that Shifter gets Magic, Cold Iron & Silver all at once at 3rd level; plus it gets the later 2 earlier than monk. If you moved Cold Iron & Silver to 7th level it'd balance better; and spread out the progression of DR overcoming more instead of lumping most of it at 3rd level. You could also spread out the Adamantine from the DR/---; to further even out that progression. Especially as a monk has to spend Chi to get these equivalents; the shifter should have it spread out to bring it more in line. While it wouldn't make sense for a Shifter to get Lawful, a Brawler gets Alignment instead; should the shifter also get such? or maybe increase the threat range to 19-20?

A Thousand Faces: This just feels weird in the class; not to mention how late you get it. The class is about turning into animals; but now you give it an ability to turn any humanoids? This would be great as an early option for a Humanoid only Shifter; but feels out of place in the base class.

-----

Really though I don't think the majority of players are going to be happy with the class unless it ends up getting a major rewrite and not just try to edit a few sentences in it here and there.

With that in mind; I propose the following additional changes to the class; though it is currently a rough draft and some things may need tweaked. Which I feel keeps to the spirit and feel of the class and what players were expecting (including the idea it was some sort of Nature Paladin).

My Shifter Redux

Edit: Commenting has been turned on for the Shifter Redux.

[45ur4]

Artificial 20 wrote:

For oozemorph, what do people think of this minor tweak for Fluidic Body?

Quote:

Each hour after this duration, the oozemorph must succeed at a DC 10 Fortitude save or revert back to her fluidic body until she rests for at least 8 hours. This save DC increases by 2 for each additional hour spent maintaining the form.

Changed parts bolded. It would fit in the current print-space of the book.

I like your proposal as a good start, but I think Oozemorph needs also more transformation per day right from first level, so t can overcome the blobform limits more times during the day, otherwise finding itself stuck in blob crippled form just after an hour or possibly two of alter self.

Something like "a number of times per day equal to half level plus CONstitution modifier" or changing the mechanic of Fluidic Body to be similar to Shifter's Wild Shape post-FAQ, like "1 hour per day per level plus WISdom modifier, that don't need to be consecutive but must be used in minimum one hour increment".

[Chris Mortika]

Oozemorph seems like a race being presented as a class.

"Okay folks. Level up before you leave town." I take my first level in my new class. Blorp.

[nighttree]

45ur4 wrote:

Artificial 20 wrote:

For oozemorph, what do people think of this minor tweak for Fluidic Body?

Quote:

Each hour after this duration, the oozemorph must succeed at a DC 10 Fortitude save or revert back to her fluidic body until she rests for at least 8 hours. This save DC increases by 2 for each additional hour spent maintaining the form.

Changed parts bolded. It would fit in the current print-space of the book.

I like your proposal as a good start, but I think Oozemorph needs also more transformation per day right from first level, so t can overcome the blobform limits more times during the day, otherwise finding itself stuck in blob crippled form just after an hour or possibly two of alter self.

Something like "a number of times per day equal to half level plus CONstitution modifier" or changing the mechanic of Fluidic Body to be similar to Shifter's Wild Shape post-FAQ, like "1 hour per day per level plus WISdom modifier, that don't need to be consecutive but must be used in minimum one hour increment".

Agreed...I think they should have the same number of uses at 1st level, as the change made to the shifters Wild Shape.

Especially as they nerfed the one workable solution people had come up with to make it playable.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

So....

Would playing Barbarian for six levels (not buying much in the way of upgrades because...

...you're going to retrain to Oozemorph at 6th and it's going to be expensive...

...be a fair way to handle the 'late entry' for the class?

[graystone]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

So....

Would playing Barbarian for six levels (not buying much in the way of upgrades because...

...you're going to retrain to Oozemorph at 6th and it's going to be expensive...

...be a fair way to handle the 'late entry' for the class?

The fairest way to handle it would be to beg the DM to start the game at 6th... Or ask the DM if one character can wander off after 5th and an oozemorph comes in at 6th... Seems unfair to the player to have to 'pay' at access an archetype that's viable.

[GodsBlister]

How far into an Adventure Path is 6th level on average? Just curious how much of a campaign it takes to get to that magic level.

[PossibleCabbage]

GodsBlister wrote:

How far into an Adventure Path is 6th level on average? Just curious how much of a campaign it takes to get to that magic level.

In my experience the first book ends with the PCs just gaining level 4, so you would hit level 6 midway through book 2. Some APs are playable if you skip the first book (Carrion Crown for example) and playing an Oozemorph at level 4 wouldn't be too bad since you can alter self for 5 hours and however long you can make fort saves and still have a use left if you need it.