Was hoping with all this chit chat their was some updates since last I looked :(
Really, fourth level should be enough. (Personally, I've played more games that start at 4+ as I have games starting below.) An adventuring day is generally considering to be eight hours, which is what you've got, with two shifts to break the time up as you need. It's not as easy as sixth level's 18 hours, but it's plenty workable.
I want to see if other agree with how I am reading Fluidic Body, since I missed this previously-
Each hour after this duration, the oozemorph must succeed at a DC 15 Fortitude save or revert back to her fluidic body until she rests for at least 8 hours.
Do you make this check immediately after your 1 hour (at first level) Alter Self, or do you make this check 1 hour after that runs out? I would think that "immediately after your 1 hour is up" is not "an hour after the duration"?
So can each period bipedal be extended by 1 hour for free? I'd certainly sign off on that.
I always read it as the former, and just didn't chance having to do that roll mid combat. Though this is just assuming that Oozemorphs cannot have nice things and this involves ambiguous rulings.
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I honestly think they should take all aspects and archetypes and toss them into a fire. A class called "The Shifter" shouldn't be restricted to Beast Shape II.
The Shifter should get an expanded Wild Shape list, rather than a more restricted one. They should get Wild Shape at level 2, starting with Alter Self. From there, they get the same progression as a Druid would, only continuing beyond Level 14, and getting access to all other polymorph spells, like Giant Form and Form of the Dragon.
At Levels 1, 5, 9, 13 & 17, the Shifter gets the ability to add an enhancement bonus to their natural attacks, as well as certain weapon special abilities, similar to the Magus. To give you a bonus while not Wild Shaped, each of these levels also allows you to select 1 natural attack you can add to your base form, with the restriction of not adding new limbs to said base form.
At levels 3, 7, 11, 15 & 19, the Shifter gets access to a "Chimeric Form" ability, where they can choose to become an amalgamation of multiple forms chooseable by their current level of Wild Shape. For the strongest level of Wild Shape, this number will always be 1, but for weaker levels of Wild Shape, the number of creatures you can choose increase linearly. Thus, earlier levels of Wild Shape aren't completely ignored at higher levels. More importantly, this actually allows you to become an actual owlbear, rather than a bear with a stealth bonus.
At level 20, your Wild Shape is constant, and you can change forms at will. You gain your base form's natural attacks in any form, and you learn one "Eldritch Secret" (i.e. cool s$#@ that is only situationally useful, like Immortality, or See in Darkness w/ a constant Deeper Darkness effect, or the ability to plane shift/teleport once per day, like Lion from Steven Universe).
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I always read it as the former, and just didn't chance having to do that roll mid combat. Though this is just assuming that Oozemorphs cannot have nice things and this involves ambiguous rulings.
That's what I'd say too. The chance that something was non-punitive for the archetype seems quite slight. Also note that it locks you out of further alter selves if you fail so even if you have multiple uses, you can still lose them for 8 hours if you try to sneak some extra time. :(
Because I think oozemorph is a lost cause I'll shift gears and beseech Paizo to give the Shifter the Intimidate class skill. Just about every shapeshifter in fiction has a moment or two of being the scariest guy around. Even something simple as the equivalent of Alter Self has allowed shapeshifters to make their victims crap their pants in fear.
Because I think oozemorph is a lost cause I'll shift gears and beseech Paizo to give the Shifter the Intimidate class skill.
This doesn't bother me too much: While it seems thematic, it's easy enough to pick up a class skill with a trait [and get a bonus].
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AFAIK there's no trait which gives Disguise as a class skill, so leaving that off the Oozemorph's list is particularly troublesome. I would think that "pretending to be a puddle, or that person you morphed into" would be a thing all Oozemorphs get a ton of practice at.
It is definitely strange that the Shifter doesn't have intimidate, and with that they could have disguise replace it for the Oozemorph. I believe that the various Aspects should be given a pass. Some of them are extremely redundant to one another, such as reading Frog and Monkey. We can only hope for more UW news soon.
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I largely stayed out of the original discussion on the Shifter. I was definitely disappointed by the class, though there was enough other material in UW that I like to not regret the purchase.
Like many others, I'm really encouraged by Paizo's willingness to make some changes. Given the constraints on eratta and my personal playstyle, I'm unlikely to pick the base shifter over the feral hunter. However I'm hopeful the class will turn out to be something I'd feel comfortable recommending to other players.
Since I finally caught up on the entire thread, I feel qualified to poach the best suggestions. :)
My preferred "quick fix" would involve:
- Shortbow proficiency, extra class skills (Disguise and Intimidate, maybe Heal and/or Sense Motive).
- Some ability to choose different natural weapon types.
- Extra aspect at level 2, increasing low-level flexibility.
- Longer duration minor aspects. Personally, I'd make them permanent from the start, like the pet-free hunter. But if this would make dips too tempting then permanent minor aspects could kick in at level 3, 6, or 7.
- Improved chimeric aspect (eg can combine two minor or a minor and a major at level 9, and three minor, two minor and one major, or two major aspects at 14). The duration on this could potentially be limited, especially if the minor aspects get unlimited duration.
- Fill in some extra abilities at weak levels as suggested by Painful Bugger:
7th level: Bonus feat
8th level: Venom Immunity
12th level: Bonus Feat
13th level: A Thousand Faces
17th level: Bonus featFor bonus feats, suggest "Any feat that augments a natural weapon or includes wild shape or shifter levels as a prerequisite" as a quick and dirty way to provide a suitable list.
- Consider in a future supplement patching with the "advanced aspect" that lemeres (?) mentioned.
- In further supplements, add archetypes with broader shapeshifting based on the various available spells.
This shouldn't add a lot of verbiage, so it would likely fit in the available space given a little trimming of the existing text (Bonus Languages and the descriptive text on different aspects could be more concise, for starters).
I'm also pretty excited by all the other suggestions I've seen with more dramatic re-designs on the shifter, and as a home GM am tempted to make my first homebrew class, so that's a nice silver lining. (Though I expect for people in less homebrew-friendly settings, it's a bit more of a "what could have been" source of extra disappointment.) An "Unchained Shifter" is definitely worth considering.
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AFAIK there's no trait which gives Disguise as a class skill
I see 7 offhand.
Almost Human
Among Humans
Deep Cover
Keeper of the Veil
Persecuted Expatriate
Statuesque
Ugly Swine
Getting more utility out of it sooner would give it more than the druid and feral hunter have?
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A little, but it's not an exciting advantage, and it fades at high levels when druids and hunters get enough wild shape uses to spend them more lightly and the longer total duration gets significant.
AFAIK there's no trait which gives Disguise as a class skillI see 7 offhand.
Almost Human
Among Humans
Deep Cover
Keeper of the Veil
Persecuted Expatriate
Statuesque
Ugly Swine
It looks like 5 of those 7 traits are racial, which is limiting. Keeper of the Veil is regional to Qadira. Deep Cover is a basic social trait, which makes it probably the most accessible. The flavour is a bit specific, but not difficult to make fit the Oozemorph.
While this would be an improvement, I'd rather see the Shifter get unique and exciting abilities rather than give it the same ability to turn into any animal that both the druid and the feral hunter already have.
While I'd like that too, I'd at least like them to be as good as those other classes if we can't get that. It's kind of a 'kicking a class while it's down' to both not have wildshape as good as other classes AND not have "unique and exciting abilities". That and the class seems like it's entrenched in the 'simple, starter class' idea, so abilities can't get TOO "unique and exciting" if that makes them even a little complicated...
It looks like 5 of those 7 traits are racial, which is limiting.
Adopted puts the 5 in play for everyone and one of them is from a popular pick for it's natural shapeshifting, the kitsune.
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Having to make your character adopted by a half-orc, kitsune, tiefling, goblin, or oread is conceptually if not mechanically limiting. And some players or GMs aren't entirely comfortable using Adopted to apply racial traits that relate to physical attributes (like "your head is less deformed than other goblins"). Having a few options other than Deep Cover is good, though.
Ultimately, I don't think a class called "the Shifter" should need a trait to make Disguise a class skill.
Because I think oozemorph is a lost cause I'll shift gears and beseech Paizo to give the Shifter the Intimidate class skill. Just about every shapeshifter in fiction has a moment or two of being the scariest guy around. Even something simple as the equivalent of Alter Self has allowed shapeshifters to make their victims crap their pants in fear.
Oozemorph is actually one of the most easily fixable archetypes of the bunch....IMO
All it currently needs is a reasonable number of uses of the Fluidic form version of Alter Self to make it playable.
And Disguise (maybe bluff) added to it's skill list.
Shifter needing disguise.....I'm not so sure....
In thirty + years I have never seen a GM ask for a disguise check to convincingly use wild shape to change into an animal....but maybe that's just my experience....
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Ultimately, I don't think a class called "the Shifter" should need a trait to make Disguise a class skill.
Oh, I don't disagree.
Oozemorph is actually one of the most easily fixable archetypes of the bunch....IMO
IMO, JUST adopting the shifter's base uses of wildshape [hours/level + stat] would be workable.
I largely stayed out of the original discussion on the Shifter. I was definitely disappointed by the class, though there was enough other material in UW that I like to not regret the purchase.
Like many others, I'm really encouraged by Paizo's willingness to make some changes. Given the constraints on eratta and my personal playstyle, I'm unlikely to pick the base shifter over the feral hunter. However I'm hopeful the class will turn out to be something I'd feel comfortable recommending to other players.
Since I finally caught up on the entire thread, I feel qualified to poach the best suggestions. :)
My preferred "quick fix" would involve:
...
- Shortbow proficiency, extra class skills (Disguise and Intimidate, maybe Heal and/or Sense Motive).
- Some ability to choose different natural weapon types.
- Extra aspect at level 2, increasing low-level flexibility.
- Longer duration minor aspects. Personally, I'd make them permanent from the start, like the pet-free hunter. But if this would make dips too tempting then permanent minor aspects could kick in at level 3, 6, or 7.
- Improved chimeric aspect (eg can combine two minor or a minor and a major at level 9, and three minor, two minor and one major, or two major aspects at 14). The duration on this could potentially be limited, especially if the minor aspects get unlimited duration.
- Fill in some extra abilities at weak levels as suggested by Painful Bugger:
7th level: Bonus feat
8th level: Venom Immunity
12th level: Bonus Feat
13th level: A Thousand Faces
17th level: Bonus featFor bonus feats, suggest "Any feat that augments a natural weapon or includes wild shape or shifter levels as a prerequisite" as a quick and dirty way to provide a suitable list.
- Consider in a future supplement patching with the "advanced aspect" that lemeres (?) mentioned.
- In further supplements, add archetypes with broader shapeshifting based on the
I think these changes would round out the Shifter really well.I hope the developers at least consider the suggestions put forth to fill in the weak levels. the suggestions above would really help.
"RELEASE THE WILD SHAPE!" sounds interesting to me.
I agree about more weapon prof., class skills, longer duration minor aspects, and improved chimeric aspect.
More aspects would be nice if Wild shape is still limited by them.
Extra class abilities are always welcome.
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Oozemorph is actually one of the most easily fixable archetypes of the bunch....IMOIMO, JUST adopting the shifter's base uses of wildshape [hours/level + stat] would be workable.
Based on your previous comments regarding your play experience, that's encouraging.
How would you weigh that against making the blob form less punishing (eg able to speak and manipulate objects in a limited way, maybe some kind of AC bonus)?
