RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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And the shopowner gets those wonderful locks and finds the following day he's been robbed anyway because a thief with magic simply enchanted them open or teleported inside, took everything that wasn't nailed down and on fire, and teleported back out. The guards noticed nothing because the thief was invisible. Was the shopkeeper a fool because he quite reasonably can't afford to hire wizards to make his store dimensionally locked?
If the potential take from the heist is worth the time of someone who can cast 4th level spells, the shopkeeper certainly has the resources to block teleportation. Said shopkeeper also has the means to hire divinations and mercenaries to recover his stolen property. And now we have an adventure!
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Perhaps it is time to boil this all down?
I recommend clicking on my name and taking a look at my profile open the spoiler for "The Caster - Martial Disparity" and give it a quick read.
These issues are not specific to wizards or even arcane magic, but rather to the way 9 level casting arcs up in power. Clerics, druids, sorcerers, witches, oracles, etc. all present some similar issues, but wizards check the most boxes.
Single Attribute Dependent. Virtually everything a wizard does, from casting, to crafting, to most skills, comes off of one stat.
Best at crafting magic items. Wizards get bonus magic item crafting feats, and crafting runs off of Spellcraft. Intelligence = crafting = power = intelligence. Repeat.
Effective use of actions. Wizards can do the vast majority of their best stuff with a standard action. They also have numerous was to get additional actions, from familiars, summons, dominated minions, contingencies, quickened spells, etc.
Versatility. By the mid levels casters generally have at least two dozen different spells they can cast in a given situation. If they don't have the right spell memorized, they have numerous options to get the spell, use a consumable, or achieve a similar effect, often simply by memorizing different spells the next day. I think the entire conjuration school is a good illustration of versatility.
Again, see the link above and click on "The Caster - Martial Disparity" for more.
"GM Issues" is a tricky topic. I would absolutely say that it is the GMs job to make sure that everyone has fun (and that usually means feels challenged). With that said, Pathfinder isn't 1e AD&D. Players have all the rules, and most of them are designed to work a certain way. Adventure Paths and Modules are written the way they are. There is only so much a GM can do while playing "by the book". Dealing with a well played wizard takes years of GM experience, and even then it is mostly just mitigating it by working with the player to hope they don't disrupt the game. The GM should not be handed the responsibility of dealing with serious class imbalance, when that imbalance does not add much enjoyment to the game to begin with.
Just a final note that wizards and other casters are not the only classes capable of disrupting the game. Low level barbarians/ fighters, some archery builds, and even some trip/grapple builds can be disruptive. With that said, nothing is more difficult to continually challenge then a well played wizard.
Among many things that Starfinder did, it also did the one thing that is unimaginable for Pathfinder.
A whole new system has the privilege of being able to reboot its spell lists.
Spell list is akin to MTG or any card game. It is so easy to just write new spells, just go ham and write all kinds of interesting spells. But by now, over 15 years later, the spell list is unmanaged. But roleplaying like this is not really "competitive" to say, so has never been a crucial need to reboot the spell list.
And the shopowner gets those wonderful locks and finds the following day he's been robbed anyway because a thief with magic simply enchanted them open or teleported inside, took everything that wasn't nailed down and on fire, and teleported back out. The guards noticed nothing because the thief was invisible. Was the shopkeeper a fool because he quite reasonably can't afford to hire wizards to make his store dimensionally locked?If the potential take from the heist is worth the time of someone who can cast 4th level spells, the shopkeeper certainly has the resources to block teleportation. Said shopkeeper also has the means to hire divinations and mercenaries to recover his stolen property. And now we have an adventure!
Wizards are overpowered because shop keepers and BBEGs have to pay them 28,800gp/year to maintain a dimensional lock spell.
8x15x10=1,200gp every 15 days.
Among many things that Starfinder did, it also did the one thing that is unimaginable for Pathfinder.
A whole new system has the privilege of being able to reboot its spell lists.
Spell list is akin to MTG or any card game. It is so easy to just write new spells, just go ham and write all kinds of interesting spells. But by now, over 15 years later, the spell list is unmanaged. But roleplaying like this is not really "competitive" to say, so has never been a crucial need to reboot the spell list.
A lot of the worst offenders among spells are from the core rulebook, but Starfinder actually approaches the problem from several angles.
1) As you say, revamping the spell lists and the spells themselves.
2) Limiting things to the sixth-level casters, who have magic, but also do other things. A Starfinder caster is still going to spend quite a bit of time firing guns or using class abilities, and longarm proficiency is actually a worthwhile investment.
3) Technology! This takes a LOT of abilities out of the hands of mages, and puts them in the hands of mundanes. You can be a perfectly valid and effective character in Starfinder without one scrap of magic, though there are some effects you'll miss. No Fly effects? Oh well! I have a jetpack!
One of the biggest problems with balancing magic in a medieval fantasy setting, and especially with the D&D approach is it's filling the place of technology in a lot of ways, so you have a very staunch haves/have nots divide. No force really rivals it.
And the shopowner gets those wonderful locks and finds the following day he's been robbed anyway because a thief with magic simply enchanted them open or teleported inside, took everything that wasn't nailed down and on fire, and teleported back out. The guards noticed nothing because the thief was invisible. Was the shopkeeper a fool because he quite reasonably can't afford to hire wizards to make his store dimensionally locked?
So, the thief spends:
* 2,250 gp for a scroll of teleport. But since he's buying a powerful spell for a theft, he probably doesn't want the transaction registered, so he goes to the Black Market and pays significantly more (3,375 - 5,500). The DC to Use Magic Device on that scroll is 27 (assuming minimum caster level of 7). This is generic NPC thief, so he probably has a 16 DEX. +3 DEX and +3 Trained brings it down to 21. If he's eleventh level, that'll bring the DC down to 10. And he Takes 10 on it, presto, spell is cast. Except, of course, that one can't Take 10 on Use Magic Device. So even an average 11th level npc rogue who's just dropped 2,250 minimum is relying on a 50/50 die roll to not have flushed those jeeps down the chamber pot.* Let's assume skill focus (Use Magic Device) and a whole slew of other specializations that make it reasonable to assume that the 11th level thief will be able to cast the spell. There'll be no signs of forced entry and the faint aura of Conjuration (teleportation) for the Magical Threats Agency to detect. Thief knows that there aren't that many casters in town that can cast teleport and they'll have alibis (since they didn't do it). So the thief knows he'll need non-detection to cover his tracks. 750 gp a piece for 5 hours of non-detection. Figures he'll need 48 hours of obfuscation to make his getaway, so that's ten scrolls, or another 7,500 gp to cover his escape.
* So, the thief is looking at an outlay of 10,000 gp minimum to rob the place. Is this Ocean's 11? Is it the night of the fight? Is this silversmith named Tony Benedict? Thief will have to cart off one hundred thousand silver coins just to break even!
On the other hand, if this silversmith does have property of such value, then he probably does have magical protection. I have a dead bolt and an alarm system. My front door is not a bank vault door. Might I still get robbed? Sure. Do my valuables warrant electrified laser fencing patroled by dogs and guards monitoring security cameras. I wish, but no. Does that make me a fool because I didn't bankrupt myself with all possible security. Nope.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Specifics of a shop vs thief arms race are mostly besides the point...the point being that is the shop has 1000s of gp to steal, it can spend part of that amount on security. Dimension lock is overkill...well, unless you're protecting the Royal Vault with its millions. In that case there will also be golems and bound servitor outsiders and other fun things.
Heck, a 150gp superior lock (DC40) shuts down knock spells below caster level 10. Before leaving each night, throw all the valuables in an extradimensional space then lock that in a floor mounted safe behind a superior lock. Spring for a security guard and give him a potion of see invisible in case something starts fiddling with the lock. Will this keep out a dedicated high level caster? No. But it will stop most casual "easy" attempts.
Basically, if my PCs want to do a heist adventure, we'll do a heist. It will have consequences and rewards. If a player wants to handwave committing theft using no resources, they can make a Profession check.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Going back to my one level in wizard, if you have even one level in a class that can theoretically cast Dimension door from its pell list and have 14 intelligence, you can use a scroll of dimension door automatically, success guaranteed.
Just want to point out that this factually wrong. There is a caster level check to activate scrolls above your caster level - so a 1st level wizard has a 30% chance to fail to activate a 7th level scroll of a wizard spell. He needs a 7 on a d20.
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And the shopowner gets those wonderful locks and finds the following day he's been robbed anyway because a thief with magic simply enchanted them open or teleported inside, took everything that wasn't nailed down and on fire, and teleported back out. The guards noticed nothing because the thief was invisible. Was the shopkeeper a fool because he quite reasonably can't afford to hire wizards to make his store dimensionally locked?So, the thief spends:
* 2,250 gp for a scroll of teleport. But since he's buying a powerful spell for a theft, he probably doesn't want the transaction registered, so he goes to the Black Market and pays significantly more (3,375 - 5,500). The DC to Use Magic Device on that scroll is 27 (assuming minimum caster level of 7). This is generic NPC thief, so he probably has a 16 DEX. +3 DEX and +3 Trained brings it down to 21. If he's eleventh level, that'll bring the DC down to 10. And he Takes 10 on it, presto, spell is cast. Except, of course, that one can't Take 10 on Use Magic Device. So even an average 11th level npc rogue who's just dropped 2,250 minimum is relying on a 50/50 die roll to not have flushed those jeeps down the chamber pot.* Let's assume skill focus (Use Magic Device) and a whole slew of other specializations that make it reasonable to assume that the 11th level thief will be able to cast the spell. There'll be no signs of forced entry and the faint aura of Conjuration (teleportation) for the Magical Threats Agency to detect. Thief knows that there aren't that many casters in town that can cast teleport and they'll have alibis (since they didn't do it). So the thief knows he'll need non-detection to cover his tracks. 750 gp a piece for 5 hours of non-detection. Figures he'll need 48 hours of obfuscation to make his getaway, so that's ten scrolls, or another 7,500 gp to cover his escape.
* So, the thief is looking at an outlay of 10,000 gp minimum to rob the place. Is this...
Or the 1st level dimensional jaunter rogue used his jaunter's hop ability and spends exactly nothing. And why, in this scenario, would the thief need non-detection? If the CL of the scroll is 7 (as you indicated), the lingering aura would last 60 minutes at most, so the crime would have to be discovered, the authorities summoned, and the spell detected all within an hour (or less, given the aura could disappear after 10 minutes). So there will be no indication at all what happened.
Also, you're assuming the thief isn't a caster (thief =/= rogue) who doesn't have to spend anything but spell slots. And, really, knock still gets you past anything but an amazing lock without much hassle, no need mucking about with teleportation. Or use blink and just walk through the wall.
3. No, there won't be any aura for this theoretical magical law enforcement to detect, because faint auras dissipate in a matter of seconds. Leaving behind a faint aura of conjuration gives the detect magic cops at most one minute after the criminal's exit before the crime scene is magically sterile. If they got there in time to detect the aura, they should have caught the thief red-handed
Greater Detect Magic sees residue from every spell cast in the last CL/days, and let’s you identify a magical signature to fingerprint the guilty caster. It’s meant for precisely this sort of problem.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Shopkeepers in a world with magic would be wise to take into account common uses of it when dealing with security, yes. The same as a shopkeeper in the modern world has to take into account security versus technology like lockpick guns and computer hacking.
Having the entire world act in all ways as if it were medieval or renaissance Earth and blatantly ignoring the fact that magic is super common leads to all sorts of bad places, and drastically increases the power of casters.
I like this list a lot. I would add in AP design as several people have mentioned that.Perhaps it is time to boil this all down?
1. The most common refrain seems to be that the primary reason Wizards are overpowered is that they gain the greatest access to the Wizard spell list. (By extension, this seems to indicate that Arcanist and extremely well funded sorcerers at even levels would present most of the same problems).
2. Second is certain spells themselves functioning as too much of a "Swiss Army Knife." Specifically Summon Monster Spells
3. Finally, there is a clump of things I'll call "GM Issues." This would include things like unlimited resting, enemy tactics, and so on.
Any other big one?
Agreed. AP design kinda falls under GM issues I would say (the enemy tactics area specifically) but should have a specific call out for people who do want to be able to grab and go.
So this topic isn't going to likely result in a "Chained" Wizard like the Summoner, but what can people do with it?
1. To mitigate the spell list, make magic special again.
*Spells may not be learned from scrolls*
I mean think about it. Why does a spellbook version of a level 5 spell take up 5 pages, but the scroll of the same spell is basically less than a page?
A wizard with a starting INT of 20 starts with 8 first level spells. With no additional research or findings, they get two more spells per level. That works out to about 10 first level spells and 4 spells for all other levels. Enough to be dangerous? Yup. Enough to know EVERYTHING. Nope. This also fixes one of the problems of good Wizard treasure. When the wizard's party defeats the BBEG and they all level up to 5 and among the horde is a damaged spellbook with a few cantrips and fireball in there, he is STOKED. This also opens up gold sinks and RP opportunities for the Wizard to seek out people to learn from.
2. Swiss Army Knife Spells. A lot of this will be mitigated in 1, because I don't see a Wizard taking SM 1-9 anymore.
Within those, follow the reading of the spell. "If you can communicate with the creature you can direct it" ok. That eliminates direct super control of most things for a while since they are all animals at first. You also better have the right language for the ones you who are smart enough. And require actual communication which the enemy is likely to be able to hear. You may also even have the GM control the creature. Pointing a bobcat at your foe shouldn't mean the bobcat runs around to set up the perfect flank with your rogue. It means the bobcat goes bobcat. Nothing in the spell says the caster gets total control.
Name some other problem spells. We can work this out.
3. Gm Issues. For this, the answer is a bit more up to you. I like to chalk it up to running the bad guys like they were the good guys (but without foreknowledge). Enemies should react dynamically to the situation. If the wizard tells his pit fiend to do something, they should react. Disrupt rest patterns once in a while.
I like number 1 a lot. I think it solves a lot of problems mechanically and in world. How much sense does it make for a wizard to sell his critical research for so little (the cost of scroll).
Number 2 really depends on the abuse of the player. If they get too kitchy with their summons, reign those in a bit.
Number 3 to me is just smart GMing. Your NPCs are just as smart as the heroes. Have them act that way.
Or the thief has one level in wizard(*), spends 0 GP, and will never be caught unless the shopkeeper is willing to hire a caster to divine into the past and discover who currently has his merchandise because there isn't any way someone's going to figure this caper out with a bloody perception check.
There are also some other points here I'm taking issue with.
1. The job can be done with a pair of Dimension Door Scrolls, which are easier to activate and come out to 1400 GP tops even if you're using the black market, as a rogue's [#] black market connections from said talent never increase the price of the item sought, only how big the settlement counts as for acquiring such things.
2. Going back to my one level in wizard, if you have even one level in a class that can theoretically cast Dimension door from its pell list and have 14 intelligence, you can use a scroll of dimension door automatically, success guaranteed.
3. No, there won't be any aura for this theoretical magical law enforcement to detect, because faint auras dissipate in a matter of seconds. Leaving behind a faint aura of conjuration gives the detect magic cops at most one minute after the criminal's exit before the crime scene is magically sterile. If they got there in time to detect the aura, they should have caught the thief red-handed. Even with a moderate aura you have 6 minutes, tops; once again, if you're that close to search for auras that soon after the crime you should be pursuing the fleeing criminal.
1400 gp for EACH, one to get in, one to get out. So, 2,800 gp, agreed? And is the thief a wizard as you suggest here (*) or a rogue as you suggest here [#]?
You stated teleport in your first robbery scenario. I illustrated the expensiveness of and dangerousness of teleport as per that scenario. Then you're all "Well, dimension door would be cheaper and wouldn't have as powerful an aura." You changed the conditions of your argument.
But, okay, dimension door. The caster has to visualize the location or just state a direction and distance. Most workshops I know have a viewable workspace and the Employees Only section. So the caster will just have to state a direction and distance. Boxes of supplies, shelves of equipment, tools, unfinished work can make for a very painful, possibly, but not likely, deadly, dimension door.
But, fine, let's say that he bribed an apprentice silversmith to give him a layout of the place. He dimension doors in (and he'll get out, with a minor aura that dissipates within seconds so the MTA can't track him that way). Even if he's a 1st level Wizard, he can't cast dimension door so he still has to buy 2 scrolls at 1,400 gp a piece (for a 2,800 gp outlay).
He'll need 28,000 silver coins to break even. 10% to the Thieves' Guild for their cut, more if he's not a member. Let's say 40,000 silver coins to make it worth the effort. At roughly 50 coins to a pound, that's about 800 pounds of silver our thief has to make off with.
You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load.
STR 25 Heavy Load 534 - 800 lbs
So, our thief has to have a minimum strength of 25 to be able to dimension door with enough silver to make this a successful capter.
Lemme guess, BAG OF HOLDING! Okay, a Type I has a weight limit of 250 pounds (so the thief still can't get the 800 pounds of silver), a Type II has a 500 lb limit (still not enough), but a Type III has a half-ton content weight limit! Except that a Type III Bag of Holding is going to cost our thief 7,400 gp (or 74,000 sp [or an additional 1,480 pounds of silver that he'll have to cart off]) bringing his total to 2,280 pounds (over a ton of silver, which, incidentally, exceeds the weight limit of his Type III Bag of Holding!)
It is not feasible.
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Shopkeepers in a world with magic would be wise to take into account common uses of it when dealing with security, yes. The same as a shopkeeper in the modern world has to take into account security versus technology like lockpick guns and computer hacking.
Having the entire world act in all ways as if it were medieval or renaissance Earth and blatantly ignoring the fact that magic is super common leads to all sorts of bad places, and drastically increases the power of casters.
I have to imagine that the solution to a lot of the "spellcasters could easily run amok, but don't" are ones that the people of Golarion have reached cultural solutions to. Like certainly a shopkeeper could put all sorts of wizard-foiling magical technology on all of the locks of their store, but it's probably easier for the merchants to get organized in a guild and impart upon the Magical establishment that for this society to be able to thrive, the Wizards have to be responsible for policing themselves or else we won't have any kind of economy.
Since Wizard magic is trained magic, you can get the various institutions that teach wizard magic to agree to this (since, I mean, Universities are going to need to buy things), and to take a role in making sure that their graduates don't just resort to stealing everything that's not nailed down. This can probably be as simple as "If your shop has been broken into magically, you can call the local Wizard school and they're contractually obligated to identify and track down who did it (and apprehend the culprit if it's one of theirs.)"
A lot of the world-breaking applications of rules are probably best served by "everybody has agreed that this is not a thing that is done, and as such has created some kind of system to police it."
3. No, there won't be any aura for this theoretical magical law enforcement to detect, because faint auras dissipate in a matter of seconds. Leaving behind a faint aura of conjuration gives the detect magic cops at most one minute after the criminal's exit before the crime scene is magically sterile. If they got there in time to detect the aura, they should have caught the thief red-handedGreater Detect Magic sees residue from every spell cast in the last CL/days, and let’s you identify a magical signature to fingerprint the guilty caster. It’s meant for precisely this sort of problem.Awesome! Now you just need to examine every magic user you don't personally know in the city while they're casting another spell until you find the guilty party!
"His/her magic looks like this" isn't super-helpful if you don't find the person that signature belongs to and observe them using magic again. You'd be better off just shelling out for the expensive divinations that let you just look back in time or locate a particular piece of the merchandise or crank-call God to give you the details of the robbery.
Which is kind of reinforcing my point that magic is overpowered, not countering it.
Yes, fingerprinting has never worked for solving crimes for very similar reasons.
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Yes, fingerprinting has never worked for solving crimes for very similar reasons.3. No, there won't be any aura for this theoretical magical law enforcement to detect, because faint auras dissipate in a matter of seconds. Leaving behind a faint aura of conjuration gives the detect magic cops at most one minute after the criminal's exit before the crime scene is magically sterile. If they got there in time to detect the aura, they should have caught the thief red-handedGreater Detect Magic sees residue from every spell cast in the last CL/days, and let’s you identify a magical signature to fingerprint the guilty caster. It’s meant for precisely this sort of problem.Awesome! Now you just need to examine every magic user you don't personally know in the city while they're casting another spell until you find the guilty party!
"His/her magic looks like this" isn't super-helpful if you don't find the person that signature belongs to and observe them using magic again. You'd be better off just shelling out for the expensive divinations that let you just look back in time or locate a particular piece of the merchandise or crank-call God to give you the details of the robbery.
Which is kind of reinforcing my point that magic is overpowered, not countering it.
It works if you have a small pool of people to check them against or a database of such fingerprints to reference. Good luck finding a random person who has no recorded fingerprints in a city of thousands.
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Not everyone is fingerprinted, but this tangent is meaningless.
Rules are not physics. The economy in a D&D game is inherently irrational. It is not an object in the setting; it is a mechanic to facilitate gameplay. The economy has plot armor.
If you want to do a heist, there are obstacles in your way at some given CR. You overcome them like any other. You get XP and loot appropriate to those encounters. You stay within WBL.
Also, no, 1400. Period. A 4th-level scroll costs 700 GP. One to get in. One to get out. 1400 GP. No more, and no less.
You are correct. I just looked at the Scroll Base Costs (by Scriber's Class) and doubled it because I thought that the base cost was how much it would cost the scriber to make it and then doubled it for selling it, but the bottom of the chart does have this note, "Prices assume that the scroll was made at the minimum caster level. The cost to create the scroll is half the base price." That's what confused me, so, yes, it would be 1400 gp for both dimension door scrolls.
I did no such thing. Teleportation refers to every spell in the teleportation subschool. You chose, for reasons unclear to me, to assume I was specifically referring to the spell teleport despite that obviously being overkill for getting into a shop you can see.
I did that because you said, ". . . teleported inside, took everything that wasn't nailed down and on fire, and teleported back out." If you had meant dimension door, I would have expected you to write, ". . . dimension doored inside, took everything that wasn't nailed down and on fire, and dimension doored back out." If you had meant plane shift, I would have expected you to write, ". . . plane shifted inside, took everything that wasn't nailed down and on fire, and plane shifted back out." If you had meant gate, I would have expected you to write, ". . . gated inside, took everything that wasn't nailed down and on fire, and gated back out." I thought that you meant what you typed and typed what you meant.
This shop doesn't have WINDOWS? Even a tiny one completely invalidates this point.
This shop doesn't have DRAPES? To close up shop at the end of the night? That blocks line of sight. Every jewelry store I see has those metal sidings that go into place when they close. But even if the thief gets to the showroom floor, that isn't back in the Employees Only section where is all the loot. That's another locked door to bypass.
Making a ton of assumptions there about the thieves, what they know, how long the thief would be staying in town, what the thief intends to accomplish by breaking into a store, and so on.
We have to, don't we? We're assuming the silversmith has enough valuable material to be worth robbing. That implies a large enough town to support the work of a silversmith that has enough valuable material to be worth robbing. That large town implies there's a Thieves' Guild. That Thieves' Guild is supposed to be keeping a handle on unsanctioned non-member thieves.
But if we're talking about a rogue thief, then, yes, anything is possible. I am assuming we're talking about a generic, run-of-the-mill thief and not some random outlier because a random outlier can foil anything. Which is why random outliers are not statistically significant and are discarded.
You're also assuming this isn't a shop that has something like display windows where an apprentice wizard gone crooked could simply shift inside through said window, fill his pockets, and shift back out.
You must be able to see the space that you are moving into . . . You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet).
Drapes foil the line of sight. Assuming, by apprentice, you mean a first level wizard (which is something I have to assume because you didn't specify), then he only has five feet to work with. And that is a mighty tiny margin within to work. And, yes, I'm assuming (AGAIN) that the silversmith has stone and not wooden walls because he's a silversmith.
NONE of the shopkeep vs magical thievery arms race argument counters my argument that the spell list is so overpowered the entire setting has to revolve around it while mundanes can just sort of do their thing and nobody cares, which ties back to the thread's question of why the wizard is overpowered.
Actually, the thread doesn't agree that the wizard is overpowered. The title of the thread is "Why are wizards considered overpowered?" I take that to mean that some people think that wizards are OP, not that they game mechanically actually are.
(It should also be mentioned that while mykull has made a pretty convincing argument that it wouldn't be particularly cost-effective for a rogue to rob stores in this way, and I will concede that, a wizard that CAN cast dimension door twice, so not even a particularly high-level one, can perform said robbery for free, making a profit no matter what he takes.)
That's entirely a matter of opinion. I think that assumes that the average person's level is 10 (even if they're just a level 10 Commoner) because that's half-way to twenty. But I think that most people are much lower-level than that. Most commoners reaching level 3, with a few getting to five. We always play the heroes of the realm that get to the godly power levels, which I think skews our perspective on this; we're the outliers that don't accurately reflect the rest of the world. Seventh level wizard then, is much higher than most of the realm will ever be.
But a high-level rogue can pick the locks FOR FREE!
And a high-level barbarian can smash the locks FOR FREE!
Neither make those classes OP. Why then does it make it so for the Wizard?
In the interest of accuracy:
1400 gp for Dimension Door scrolls is 14,000 sp or 280 pounds of silver. That would require a minimum STR of 18, which, for a human, is supposed to be Mr. Olympia body-builder type level of strength. More likely than the STR 25, but still very unlikely in a rogue, or a wizard, and especially in a rogue/wizard.
The Bag of Holding still won't help, though. The Type II has a 500 pound weight limit, but has a cost of 5,000 gp itself, which adds another 1,000 lbs of needed silver to be boosted to break even.
I feel one part of the discussion isn't being touched on; the player.
Not everyone picking up Wizard(or casters) will instantly go "Okay so how to break this game to the point I don't even need to play anymore". Some people will just want to fling fire, lightning, and acid because that's what they see in other fiction(Games and tv). Others might slide into a more supportive role. Still others, like myself, will have no idea what to do.
Wizard and casters might break the game, but it is dependent on just how smart the player behind them are. Or just dumb luck but I really can't count dumb like when Nat 20 exists across all classes.
I've read through 600+ posts and tried to keep an open-mind, but my answer to the original poster would still be "Yes."
Is it theoretically possible to run a campaign in a way specifically designed to address the problem? Maybe. But in the vast majority of adventures, situations, and encounters (both homebrew and published) the wizard will be over-powered.
Wizards are theoretically overpowered as all hell. Table variance will occur. I'm pretty sure everyone is on the same page with that bit.
I feel one part of the discussion isn't being touched on; the player.
Not everyone picking up Wizard(or casters) will instantly go "Okay so how to break this game to the point I don't even need to play anymore". Some people will just want to fling fire, lightning, and acid because that's what they see in other fiction(Games and tv). Others might slide into a more supportive role. Still others, like myself, will have no idea what to do.
Wizard and casters might break the game, but it is dependent on just how smart the player behind them are. Or just dumb luck but I really can't count dumb like when Nat 20 exists across all classes.
The things that make the Wizard overwhelmingly powerful are not the player being malicious and abusing loopholes.
Say we're in a hallway. There are eight enemies. I cast Wall of Stone in the middle of the group, with half the enemies in front, and half behind. The wall delays the group behind for two rounds before they either break through or find a way around. I have consumed half the enemy's actions for two rounds with one action on my round.
That is the power of control. I use my actions to cost the enemy a larger portion of their actions to overcome the obstacle I put in their way, diminishing their ability to act.
And there are so many ways to cost enemies so many actions that it's not hard to consistently render opponents impotent. This is an act that makes perfect sense in-character, and simply resorting to blast spells in-character and disregarding knowledge of basic tactics if you have it is bending over backward and not playing the game because the game has become this delicate thing you have to treat like an egg.
I feel one part of the discussion isn't being touched on; the player.
Not everyone picking up Wizard(or casters) will instantly go "Okay so how to break this game to the point I don't even need to play anymore". Some people will just want to fling fire, lightning, and acid because that's what they see in other fiction(Games and tv). Others might slide into a more supportive role. Still others, like myself, will have no idea what to do.
Wizard and casters might break the game, but it is dependent on just how smart the player behind them are. Or just dumb luck but I really can't count dumb like when Nat 20 exists across all classes.
The things that make the Wizard overwhelmingly powerful are not the player being malicious and abusing loopholes.
Say we're in a hallway. There are eight enemies. I cast Wall of Stone in the middle of the group, with half the enemies in front, and half behind. The wall delays the group behind for two rounds before they either break through or find a way around. I have consumed half the enemy's actions for two rounds with one action on my round.
That is the power of control. I use my actions to cost the enemy a larger portion of their actions to overcome the obstacle I put in their way, diminishing their ability to act.
And there are so many ways to cost enemies so many actions that it's not hard to consistently render opponents impotent. This is an act that makes perfect sense in-character, and simply resorting to blast spells in-character and disregarding knowledge of basic tactics if you have it is bending over backward and not playing the game because the game has become this delicate thing you have to treat like an egg.
I agree this is a thing that can happen, and not just with Wizards but with casters in general. But this is also looking at it as "The perfect set up".
In your example, what if said Wizard just hit Level 9(And thus got their level 5 spell slots). There's a number of spells that could go in there that do they actually have Wall of Stone ready? And yes any number of spells could take their spot but again, what do you have?
And I'm not saying you have to bend backwards(at least all the time) but you expect me to believe that some random person getting into any tabletop will play a caster as the full fledged 'God' they are? Or someone that just wants to play a Fire Mage is going to threaten what in game besides anything with fire weakness?
It's easy to break the game with magic, I can agree to that. But not everyone is willing to break said game or their character is set up to break the game.
I could provide examples bu those are from my point of view and not mid tier spell list yet. So my view is probably not what the topic is looking for.
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I agree this is a thing that can happen, and not just with Wizards but with casters in general. But this is also looking at it as "The perfect set up".
In your example, what if said Wizard just hit Level 9(And thus got their level 5 spell slots). There's a number of spells that could go in there that do they actually have Wall of Stone ready? And yes any number of spells could take their spot but again, what do you have?
And I'm not saying you have to bend backwards(at least all the time) but you expect me to believe that some random person getting into any tabletop will play a caster as the full fledged 'God' they are? Or someone that just wants to play a Fire Mage is going to threaten what in game besides anything with fire weakness?
It's easy to break the game with magic, I can agree to that. But not everyone is willing to break said game or their character is set up to break the game.
I could provide examples bu those are from my point of view and not mid tier spell list yet. So my view is probably not what the topic is looking for.
I've had people come to my games brand new and play the God wizard, blocking off or tying up enemies without prompting! Who look at the spells and say, "I could do less damage than a crossbow... or I could put everybody on their ass so they're not a threat. Imma put everybody on their ass." Who realize, "Hey, this is a good spell, but it's resisted by reflex. If I have another spell that's resisted by will, and another that's resisted by fortitude, I always have a good spell."
And they continued to make the logical choices, using their tools as tools, managing their resources and applying tools creatively. Not out of any intent to break the game, but out of rational decision making both in and out of character.
And that didn't have to be a Wall of Stone. It could just as easily be Grease, Web, a summon, Proprietary Name's Black Tentacles, or any number of things. Might not have Wall of Stone at the moment (though if I'm going down in a cave, I probably do), but there are a lot of flexible spells that can do that same job and are routinely a good idea to prepare.
Nope your still not getting it.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Wizards are theoretically overpowered as all hell. Table variance will occur. I'm pretty sure everyone is on the same page with that bit.
While I agree, this statement is trivially true. I could set up a campaign world that makes CRB rogues and monks the overpowered choices. It would vary drastically from expected standards of Pathfinder, but it would be doable.
Spoiler for example:
It's actually my favorite published setting.
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My understanding is that part of the reason the thread has gone on for as long as it has is that some people are arguing that because table variance exists, wizards are not overpowered in either theory or principle and that if you don't run the game in a specific way to hamstring Wizards, or in some cases casters in general, you're playing the game wrong.
You don't deal with wizards by hamstringing them. Doing so frustrates players and risks turning the game into a battle against the GM. It's better to design scenarios that require magical solutions. Don't stop the wizard from spellcasting; force him to cast spells.
So, for example, instead of thwarting teleportation with spells like Dimensional Lock, design a dungeon inhabited by fiends that has to be navigated by teleportation.
Or if you expect the wizard to divide two sets of enemies with a wall, design each set of enemies as a challenge in its own right. That way once the wall is up the party martials still have a fight on their hands.
Wizards change the way the game works at high levels. Don't fight it; roll with it.
A couple of points :)
1: If you have to design the encounters - especially out of combat ones - to challenge wizards - because, as you say, they change the way the game works at higher levels - then you're acknowledging that they are more powerful than a rogue or a fighter. When was the last time one had to change the overall design of their campaign for what a fighter did? I'm sure it has happened, but it's extraordinarily rare.
2: If you design the dungeons and your campaign like that, you're essentially locking out all the martials. If the only way through a dungeon is by teleportation, then the rogue and fighter along for the journey aren't going to be doing anything. Especially annoying for the rogue - they're the skill monkey, and should be able to contribute out of combat. If they can't because the world needs to be designed around how wizards work, that's a pretty big problem in the system, in my opinion. I know for one I'd be annoyed if I had the expectation that my rogue was going to be the greatest lockpicker in the world, and I never needed to pick a lock past level 10 because the wizard cast Aram Zey's Focus, or Knock, or just dim-door'd past the issue, or one of any number of things that can make me useless.
Tl;dr: If you design you campaign so that you require magical solutions, you remove all the narrative power of those without magic - more than anything, this shows the fact that those that use magic (the wizard being the most egregious) are too powerful.
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"I, the skilled warrior who has been aggressively training and fighting for over a decade, am not even close to ready to fight Steve the Necromancer, but I will be if I spend the next week on the road exhausting myself by smashing every face between here and there," sounds pretty metagamey to me.
There's no in-character reason to assume that the character who's been training and practicing for years suddenly goes through some sort of super soldier puberty where over the course of three months of adventuring, they go from rat smasher to demigod.
[strokes preposterous philosopher beard +2]
I agree that it sounds metagamey to us, but I think you have to put yourself in the shoes of someone living in a fantasy setting. In addition to dragons, outsiders, magical beasts, etc. being super real, and part of life, there are actual people around you going on magical adventures and coming back badass and decked out in ludicrously expensive magical gear. Or getting killed. But then they get raised, because that is a part of life as well. Their existence and life experiences would be vastly different then our own, but it would be normal to them.
I recommend checking out the Order of the Stick for a fantastic imagining of what it would be like to live in the universe created by the D&D rules.