I've been trying in vain to figure this out and would appreciate some insight. I have a character with a BAB of +7 and a natural Slam attack. The player is tired of making a single attack every round and is looking for options, so she's thinking to take a level of monk. I know that flurry of blows doesn't play well with natural attacks, so let's ignore the flurry ability for the moment.
Can the character take the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and simply make iterative unarmed strikes and then add the slam as a secondary attack to the routine? Since the monk's unarmed strikes are considered light and there's no off-hand penalty, they only suffer the flat two-weapon fighting penalty of -2 to hit. So the routine would look like:
Strike +5 / Strike +5 / Strike 0 / Slam +2
Strike damage would be the monk's regular unarmed 1d6, and the slam damage remains the same though with half Strength. Does this make sense, or am I way off base?
You are correct on all counts.
Fuzzy-wuzzy was correct
I've been trying in vain to figure this out and would appreciate some insight. I have a character with a BAB of +7 and a natural Slam attack. The player is tired of making a single attack every round...
You should already be getting two attacks at BAB7, one a -5 iterative. It could be two slams, or two weapon attacks, or one of each (unless your creature type's physique somehow gums that up).
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I've been trying in vain to figure this out and would appreciate some insight. I have a character with a BAB of +7 and a natural Slam attack. The player is tired of making a single attack every round...You should already be getting two attacks at BAB7, one a -5 iterative. It could be two slams, or two weapon attacks, or one of each (unless your creature type's physique somehow gums that up).
Can't be 2 slams. As a natural weapon, slams never get iterative attacks from a high BAB.
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
To avoid the mess of flurry of blows, if you go with the Monk idea, take Master of Many Styles and grab a free style feat or Elemental Fist. The archetype replaces Flurry of Blows, and can net you an extra combat option.
Ooh. That's a great idea LizardMage; Earth Child Style is perfect for this character!
Thanks to all for checking my work and the helpful suggestions. You'll make my player very happy.
Also look at Maneuver Master. It allows for an extra maneuver on top of your iteratives, twf and natural attacks. Great for trip builds (see vicious stomp, imp trip).
Or just a brawler dip for martial flexibility, or the Mutagen archetype for +4 strength. I like the preservation of BAB but these are all good options.
Unarmed strike is a single weapon, to unless there has been some errata I am unaware of you cannot TWF with just it.
Yeah, there's an FAQ for that. Here.
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Technically, with a level in Monk, you get your Slam at +7, not at +2. A Monk Unarmed Strike counts as a natural weapon for the purposes of effects that improve Natural Weapons, so adding Monk Unarmed Strikes is just adding more Natural Attacks.
This use of the Monk Class Ability does seem to be strongly disliked by some people on this forum, however. But it is what the rules say.
What is strongly disliked is saying something is true that isn't true, is misleading, and known to be wrong.
Scott, what do you think the phrase "for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons" means? Because it would have to be wholly inoperative in order for the sentence to mean that monk UAS is a natural attack as you claim.
I would say "the universal monster rules describing how natural attacks work" is not a spell or effect that enhances anything.
One, FYI, "inoperative" means "having no effect." An inoperative phrase is one that has no impact on the meaning of the sentence and might as well not be there.
Two, the fact that many people think poorly of your reasoning is not something to take pride in or brag about, much less to gloat over. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not one of those dorks who thinks holding a minority opinion makes him some kind of Kewl R3b3l against an Oppressive Establishment, because if you were then all debate with you would be pointless.
Three, are you seriously claiming that a monk's UAS can enhance/improve other weapons? Is that what your argument boils down to?
Four... Ambrus, this is your thread; how much doubt is there in your mind that Scott is full of it? Do you want to see this debated? Because I'm not going to argue just to entertain Scott.
Scott, are you saying that a monk using natural attacks in addition to his UAS does not incur the -5 penalty on those natural attacks? Octomonk would have all of his 8+ attacks at full bab?
Q: Do Monk Unarmed Strikes count as Natural Weapons for the purposes of effects that improve Slam Attacks?
A: Yes!
Doesn't this mean the slams should benefit from the monks increased unarmed damage too?
Don't listen to Scott, you can't use unarmed strikes as part of a natural attack combo, whether you're a monk or not. That clause is so you can cast Magic Fang on the monk, not so that they can completely ignore their flurry and do full attacks at maximum BAB. I can't even begin to read it the way he's reading it.
What is strongly disliked is saying something is true that isn't true, is misleading, and known to be wrong.Technically, with a level in Monk, you get your Slam at +7, not at +2. A Monk Unarmed Strike counts as a natural weapon for the purposes of effects that improve Natural Weapons, so adding Monk Unarmed Strikes is just adding more Natural Attacks.
This use of the Monk Class Ability does seem to be strongly disliked by some people on this forum, however. But it is what the rules say.Well, let us know if you come across something that is any of those things.
The rules really do say what I said.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.Monk
A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks
Don't listen to Scott, you can't use unarmed strikes as part of a natural attack combo, whether you're a monk or not. That clause is so you can cast Magic Fang on the monk, not so that they can completely ignore their flurry and do full attacks at maximum BAB. I can't even begin to read it the way he's reading it.you can so, you just cant use them with a flurry of blows, so if you pick up the twf feat tree you can get unarmed strikes and natural attacks
Anyone can combine iterative attacks and nat attacks. What you can't do is have unarmed strikes be part of a natural attack combo. They might count as natural attacks for certain things, but they don't have a primary or secondary signifier, nor are they ever called out as actually being natural attacks that can be used in a combo.
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The rule says you get one "It actually makes me bigger." and one "I'm not actually bigger, but I hit like I am.".
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t5u
They use the Enlarge Person and Bashing shield combo for an example.
A LN Monk/Druid casing Shillelagh and chugging an Enlarge Person potion (or having it cast on him) would be Large and in charge with a 3d6 Quarterstaff attack that he can use with Flurry of Blows.
BAB +7 means at least 7th level. Where is the Haste? Even a 7th level Bard or Skald has that.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon. This doesn't mean that a natural weapon can ever be treated like a monk's unarmed strike. Those are completely different statements.
Best you get is
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Taking a level of monk just to get slightly better damage on the unarmed attacks probably isn't worth it. What class is the character now?
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon. This doesn't mean that a natural weapon can ever be treated like a monk's unarmed strike. Those are completely different statements.Best you get is
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
This is the closest thing to what the OP asked about. A level of [U]monk + Feral Combat Training will allow multiple slams/round by flurrying, noting of course that the natural weapon is in place of and not in addition to unarmed strikes. The nice thing is you'll get your strength 1.5 damage on those slams as it's your only natural attack.
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Guys, it's really best not to argue with Scott on this. It massively derails the thread and it's been attempted numerous times.
It's best just to comment how Scott's view is the extreme minority and not likely to be the rule in most games. Then just ignore Scott about this. He brings it up every time monk is talked about and has everyone telling him he's wrong every time and he doesn't change every time.
Scott,
You are a monk have a 6 BAB. You have improved two weapon fighting. And a slam attack.
In my understanding the proper attack combination with un armed strikes is as follows. Do you agree, and if not what does it look like for you?
+4/+4/-1/-1 unarmed strikes and +1 Slam
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Scott,
You are a monk have a 6 BAB. You have improved two weapon fighting. And a slam attack.In my understanding the proper attack combination with un armed strikes is as follows. Do you agree, and if not what does it look like for you?
+4/+4/-1/-1 unarmed strikes and +1 Slam
please don't.
His answer is no, it's
+4/+4/-1/-1 unarmed strikes and +6 Slam
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Considering that Ultimate Wilderness just came out and provides a lot of ways for people to combine natural attacks with other kinds of attacks, a blog post untangling these rules would not be inappropriate or unhelpful...
I mean, an oozemorph with Improved Unarmed Strike and an amulet of mighty fists is basically "combine unarmed strikes and natural attacks- the character."