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Does anybody else feel that the Shifter may not have succeeded at making Wild Shape easy?
The problem there is that it would have been easy if the aspects listed specific bonuses and abilities, the problem being that it would have taken up precious page space. It winds up being more complicated because the ability is written in the form of "You get X, but unlike X (which is complicated but is pretty well understood at this point) you swap some parts out and get Y instead."
Like just as an example, cut out the parts of the Wild Shape class feature where it refers to Beast Shape II. So you have the following text:
"At 4th level, a shifter gains the ability to turn herself into the major form of one of her aspects and back again once per day. The shifter can turn into the major form of only one of her aspects at a time. The effect lasts for 1 hour per shifter level or until she changes back. Using wild shape to change to a major form or back is a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. Each major form details the abilities the shifter gains with that major form and at what level."
Way easier to understand. All it would require is adding a few notes to the individual aspect entries detailing specific bonuses that would normally be included in Beast Shape, like the Bear's claws, any size bonuses and bonuses to natural armor, and new movement speeds. Wouldn't even need to reference the bestiary in that case, it would all be listed right there, and it becomes easy to add new weird aspects later on, like adding Infernal templates to aspects. Normally you'd have to reference the template itself, but like that you can just list out "this is what the Infernal aspect gets compared to the regular".
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Does anybody else feel that the Shifter may not have succeeded at making Wild Shape easy?The problem there is that it would have been easy if the aspects listed specific bonuses and abilities, the problem being that it would have taken up precious page space. It winds up being more complicated because the ability is written in the form of "You get X, but unlike X (which is complicated but is pretty well understood at this point) you swap some parts out and get Y instead."
Could we not spare that page space for the signature class of a book? Like pulling my copy of Ultimate Intrigue off the Shelf, the Vigilante got 9 pages plus 10 pages of archetypes. The Shifter gets, what, six plus six pages of archetypes?
I guess that maybe by referring to things in other books they can save space for future products like player companions, so you can add a new shifter aspect with like 3 paragraphs instead of 4. But having to look up the polymorph rules, the Beast Shape II spell, and the Beastiary entry really makes me wish they had figured out how to get that extra paragraph in.
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To me, this whole "the shifter is meant to be simple" honestly sounds like an excuse to explain the subpar class features of the class... Maybe I just never heard anything about the shifter being an entry class before the release of UW, but that's what it looks like to me.
This is how it appears to me as well.
I think the reason the conversation has died down so much...is there is little point to discussing it until the dev's choose to chime in.
I think the class could do fine with some reasonably basic tweaks...although it still wouldn't be what the majority of people were expecting (as in a Master of Many forms type character).
Still it could be good at it's apparent concept, if some work was done on it.
It very much does feel like a base concept that hasn't been taken to full fruition yet.....I guess time will tell.
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I'm sad.
This was a chance for Paizo do something as cool as the Magus. Instead we get this...
Maybe Paizo's star is falling.
Also public play test might not be helpful, but I've found with my homebrew that the more criticisms I get the better my homebrew is. So shame on Paizo for not having a public play test AND failing too make something cool.
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Play tests are very helpful IMO....based on experience.
Unfortunately the behavior of some people during playtests is not helpful....and since some people can't be adults, a perfectly good tool becomes a problem.
Personally, I would rather they just boot individuals who can't participate in playtests like an adult....
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From someone who just recently replayed Fire Emblem Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn, why not go on the Laguz route?
Basically, Laguz are special units capable of swapping between a Humanoid and an Animal Form. In order to swap, you build up "points" for dealing/taking damage while in human form and can then shift into Animal Form for massively increased stats until you run out of points. Different animals start with different amounts of points, so small Cats transform quickly while large cats transform slowly.
In the second game they introduce Half-Shifting, a process where you sacrifice stats for permanent transformation. I think this is perfect for pathfinder; to address situations where you want your abilities outside of combat, or cannot wait to build up points, you can Half-Shift to gain your animal features without the stat boosts.
Points, instead of building up, could work like Rounds of Rage where you are only at full power for so long. However, thanks to half-shifting you can maintain use of your animal's non-combat abilities outside of combat. That way you can spend all day in Tiger form from level 4, but only get the stat increases from Beast Shape 2 and any extra abilities (like pounce or rake) during these boosted rounds.
This balances out gaining wild shape early (you might only be able to use "Half-Shifting" until level 4 when you unlock the full power of Wild Shape) while also fulfilling the idea of a character who can become an animal at will.
Allowing you to combine multiple animals together is less problematic if you are only at maximum power for X many rounds and spend the rest of the day as a human/animal/animal hybrid without pushing the character more towards feeling like a "Wild Fighter Archetype"
High level, Royal, Laguz can be shifted constantly and are exceptionally powerful. This could be a high level ability or even a captstone that gives you permanent "full shifted" power.
NINJA EDIT:
Play tests are very helpful IMO....based on experience.
Unfortunately the behavior of some people during playtests is not helpful....and since some people can't be adults, a perfectly good tool becomes a problem.
Personally, I would rather they just boot individuals who can't participate in playtests like an adult....
I agree, run it as an invite only forums and kick people who violate the terms laid out multiple times.
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Closed playtests where a designer invites a couple dozen people who participated usefully in the last open playtest might be a better idea, but still requires someone who should be working internally to coordinate this and interact with the selected playtesters (generally handled in some sort of 'secret forum' only available via password, in my brief experience running such a thing for a software company).
Paizo seems unlikely to have extra people lying around with nothing to do, and it's entirely out of their control whether or not the playtesters contribute anything worth their time to read, so that's not really likely to happen anytime soon.
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Anyone else talk to their groups about the shifter? How did it go?
Funny. I've got a friend who's excited for the class, and after giving it a read, he was surprised that it's getting a lot of hate. He likes the claws, he likes the shape shifting, he thinks the AC bonus is pretty good, and he's really excited about the aspects that give free Strength so in theory you don't need to buy a stat belt for combat.
I was excited in the hype, and then caught up in the anti-hype. But after giving a read and some thoughts and figuring out a build that looks fun to play (see an earlier post) I've decided to give the class a fair chance before I drop my final judgement.
But deep down, I just want a certain archetype to clear it through PFS so I can create adorable slime girls and finally live the dream.
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There are two separate issues here (IMO).....you have A) people who were expecting a Pathfinder version of the Master of Many Forms.....which this class was obviously not meant to fill.
Then you have the class this was obviously meant to fill.....but does so badly.
That is probably were we need to focus our attention.
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Could you have a shifter archetype that completely trades away Wild Shape? On one hand, it's a signature part of the class- something called a "shifter" should be able to shift into something other than themselves. On the other hand, you have all sorts of archetypes that trade away signature class features (Ultimate Wilderness contains a Cavalier archetype that doesn't get Mount, for example) and there's no reason a "particularly martially inclined guardian of nature needs to be able to turn into anything other than themselves."
I mean, the Hunter is no less in tune with nature because they can't turn into a hawk or a stoat or an ocelot right?
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But deep down, I just want a certain archetype to clear it through PFS so I can create adorable slime girls and finally live the dream.
But you're not supposed to play Oozemorph to play an ooze, you're supposed to play Oozemorph to AVOID playing an ooze! PSHAAAW!
... Seriously, there is confirmation from the guy who wrote all of the Shifter| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think the class should be a "PF master of many forms" but it would be good if the Shifter's class abilities matched it's own fluff...
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But deep down, I just want a certain archetype to clear it through PFS so I can create adorable slime girls and finally live the dream.But you're not supposed to play Oozemorph to play an ooze, you're supposed to play Oozemorph to AVOID playing an ooze! PSHAAAW!
... Seriously, there is confirmation from the guy who wrote all of the Shiftertrap optionsarchetypes that being an ooze is intended to be a penalty and the goal of the archetype is to avoid it as much as you can. Which is stupid as I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE THE MAIN DRAW OF THE ARCHETYPE! I love that you get to be an amorphous blob as your base form... but it's written so badly that that concept is basically the only good part of the archetype. Maybe I should try my hand at writing my own...
This. So very much this. When you deliberately make an option so bad it's just filling word count...
Too bad the best way to play on is probably going to errata'd out in an FAQ.
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But you're not supposed to play Oozemorph to play an ooze, you're supposed to play Oozemorph to AVOID playing an ooze! PSHAAAW!
But deep down, I just want a certain archetype to clear it through PFS so I can create adorable slime girls and finally live the dream.
I repeat:
LIVETHE
DREAM
I wouldn't care if the archetype is Brute Vigilante levels of unworkable, I need this.
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But you're not supposed to play Oozemorph to play an ooze, you're supposed to play Oozemorph to AVOID playing an ooze! PSHAAAW!
But deep down, I just want a certain archetype to clear it through PFS so I can create adorable slime girls and finally live the dream.I repeat:
LIVE
THE
DREAMI wouldn't care if the archetype is Brute Vigilante levels of unworkable, I need this.
Considering that nearly everything about the ooze base form is undefined... it's LESS workable than Brute Vigilante.
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Wait, so Fiendflesh shifters, called out as specifically being un natural and generally hated by druids, still has to follow druidic oaths, revere nature and stuff?
wat?
Fiendflesh changes the alignment requirement but doesn't alter or remove the code/ex-shifter section. Fiendish Resilience even calls out incompatibility with metal armor specifically.
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I am the only one that finds it strange that the shifter class doesn't get disguise as a class skill?
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On the other hand, you have all sorts of archetypes that trade away signature class features (Ultimate Wilderness contains a Cavalier archetype that doesn't get Mount, for example)
A Cavalier that doesn’t have to put up with a Mount? Hey, this book just got bumped up a few notches!
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On the other hand, you have all sorts of archetypes that trade away signature class features (Ultimate Wilderness contains a Cavalier archetype that doesn't get Mount, for example)A Cavalier that doesn’t have to put up with a Mount? Hey, this book just got bumped up a few notches!
The Green Knight is f$$&ing awesome.
From someone who just recently replayed Fire Emblem Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn, why not go on the Laguz route?
Holy crap, I thought I was the only one who played those games...
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You folks are making me want to roll a skinwalker monk for those awesome untransformed laguz kickboxing skills.
Anyone else talk to their groups about the shifter? How did it go?Funny. I've got a friend who's excited for the class, and after giving it a read, he was surprised that it's getting a lot of hate. He likes the claws, he likes the shape shifting, he thinks the AC bonus is pretty good, and he's really excited about the aspects that give free Strength so in theory you don't need to buy a stat belt for combat.
I was excited in the hype, and then caught up in the anti-hype. But after giving a read and some thoughts and figuring out a build that looks fun to play (see an earlier post) I've decided to give the class a fair chance before I drop my final judgement.
But deep down, I just want a certain archetype to clear it through PFS so I can create adorable slime girls and finally live the dream.
Our group is very excited for the shifter. I'm probably the least, but that's partly because I'm already messing around a lot with polymorph and have a metamorph lined up for our next campaign.
The shifter will be a fine class in our group. Most of the players tend to be averse to heavy optimisation, and we have had one campaign in several years pass 10th level.
I gotta say, I agree with the core problems of being stuck in one form most of the day, early game claw damage, and lategame natural attack scaling.
I think having a limited pool of animal forms is a good design choice, but I wish it came with more freedom in switching between those forms.
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On the other hand, you have all sorts of archetypes that trade away signature class features (Ultimate Wilderness contains a Cavalier archetype that doesn't get Mount, for example)A Cavalier that doesn’t have to put up with a Mount? Hey, this book just got bumped up a few notches!
Ultimate Wilderness is getting a bad rap because the shifter is meh, but there are some solid archetypes in there. To wit- I want to play *both* cavalier archetypes in the book (the other one gets a mount, but it has to be a dinosaur, and you get bonuses for fighting stuff bigger than you, so a gnome cavalier riding a Deinonychus, I guess) and prior to this book the Cavalier was near the bottom of the "classes I want to play" list.
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As a martial class, this class doesn't make the grade.
Sure, it gets full Base Attack Bonus progression (like the Antipaladin, Barbarian, Bloodrager, Brawler, Cavalier, Fighter, Gunslinger, Paladin, Ranger, Samurai, Slayer, and Swashbuckler classes), but the damage output is far too low.
The following is a martial comparison (which, admittedly, doesn't showcase the absolute best that any class can achieve, but it does provide a baseline for comparison):
Assumptions: 18 Strength, every attack lands a hit, longsword (assuming proficiency via class feature or feat; claws for the Shifter), full attack, class abilities, no other damage bonuses (from races, feats, magical items, etc...)
Antipaladin: (no smite) +5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round. (with smite) 1d8+5, 9.5 average damage. (with smite, double damage) 1d8+6, 10.5 average damage.
Barbarian: (no rage) +5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round. (with rage) +7 attack bonus, 1d8+6 damage, 10.5 average damage per round.
Bloodrager: (no rage) +5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round. (with rage) +7 attack bonus, 1d8+6 damage, 10.5 average damage per round.
Brawler: +5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round.
Cavalier: (no challenge) +5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round. (challenge) 1d8+5 damage, 9.5 average damage per round.
Fighter: +5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round.
Gunslinger: +5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round.
Paladin: (no smite) +5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round. (with smite) 1d8+5, 9.5 average damage. (with smite, double damage) 1d8+6, 10.5 average damage.
Ranger: (non-favored enemy) +5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round. (favored enemy) +7 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round.
Samurai: (no challenge) +5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round. (challenge) 1d8+5 damage, 9.5 average damage per round.
Highest average damage per round. Using a longsword instead of claws, +5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round.
Slayer: +5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round. (vs. studied target) +6 attack bonus, 1d8+5 damage, 9.5 average damage per round.
Swashbuckler: +5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round.
Assumptions: 18 Strength, every attack lands a hit, longsword (assuming proficiency via class feature or feat; claws for the Shifter), full attack, class abilities, no other damage bonuses (from races, feats, magical items, etc...)
Antipaladin: (no smite) +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round. (with smite, no double damage) 1d8+9 damage, 27 average damage per round. (with smite, double damage) 1d8+14 damage, 18.5 average damage per round.
Barbarian: (no rage) +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round. (with rage) +12/+7 attack bonus, 1d8+6 damage, 30 average damage per round.
Bloodrager: (no rage) +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round. (with rage) +12/+7 attack bonus, 1d8+6 damage, 30 average damage per round.
Brawler: +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round.
Cavalier: (no challenge) +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round. (challenge) 1d8+10 damage, 29 average damage per round.
Fighter: +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round.
Gunslinger: +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round.
Paladin: (no smite) +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round. (with smite, no double damage) 1d8+9 damage, 27 average damage per round. (with smite, double damage) 1d8+14 damage, 18.5 average damage per round.
Ranger: (non-favored enemy) +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round. (favored enemy) +12/+7 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round.
Samurai: (no challenge) +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round. (challenge) 1d8+10 damage, 29 average damage per round.
Lowest average damage per round. Using a longsword instead of claws, +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round.
Slayer: (vs. non-studied target) +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round. (vs. studied target) +12/+7 attack bonus, 1d8+6 damage, 21 average damage per round.
Swashbuckler: +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 17 average damage per round.
Assumptions: 18 Strength, every attack lands a hit, longsword (assuming proficiency via class feature or feat; claws for the Shifter), full attack, class abilities, no other damage bonuses (from races, feats, magical items, etc...)
Antipaladin: (no smite) +15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 25.5 average damage per round. (with smite, no double damage) 1d8+15 damage, 58.5 average damage per round. (with smite, double damage) 1d8+26 damage, 91.5 average damage per round.
Barbarian: (no rage) +15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 25.5 average damage per round. (with rage) +18/+13/+8 attack bonus, 1d8+7 damage, 34.5 average damage per round.
Bloodrager: (no rage) +15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 25.5 average damage per round. (with rage) +18/+13/+8 attack bonus, 1d8+7 damage, 34.5 average damage per round.
Brawler: +15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 25.5 average damage per round.
Cavalier: (no challenge) +15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 25.5 average damage per round. (challenge) 1d8+15 damage, 58.5 average damage per round.
Fighter: +15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 25.5 average damage per round.
Gunslinger: +15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 25.5 average damage per round.
Paladin: (no smite) +15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 25.5 average damage per round. (with smite, no double damage) 1d8+15 damage, 58.5 average damage per round. (with smite, double damage) 1d8+26 damage, 91.5 average damage per round.
Ranger: (non-favored enemy) +15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 25.5 average damage per round. (favored enemy) +17/+12/+7 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 25.5 average damage per round.
Samurai: (no challenge) +15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 8.5 average damage per round. (challenge) 1d8+15 damage, 58.5 average damage per round.
Lowest average damage per round. Using a longsword instead of claws, +15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 25.5 average damage per round.
Slayer: (vs. non-studied target) +15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 25.5 average damage per round. (vs. studied target) +17/+12/+7 attack bonus, 1d8+6 damage, 31.5 average damage per round.
Swashbuckler: +15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 25.5 average damage per round.
Assumptions: 18 Strength, every attack lands a hit, longsword (assuming proficiency via class feature or feat; claws for the Shifter), full attack, class abilities, no other damage bonuses (from races, feats, magical items, etc...)
Antipaladin: (no smite) +20/+15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round. (with smite, no double damage) +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+20 damage, 98 average damage per round. (with smite, double damage) 1d8+36 damage, 162 average damage per round.
Barbarian: (no rage) +20/+15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round. (with rage) +23/+18/+13/+8 attack bonus, 1d8+7 damage, 46 average damage per round.
Bloodrager: (no rage) +20/+15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round. (with rage) +23/+18/+13/+8 attack bonus, 1d8+7 damage, 46 average damage per round.
Brawler: +20/+15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round.
Cavalier: (no challenge) +20/+15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round. (challenge) 1d8+20 damage, 98 average damage per round.
Fighter: +20/+15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round.
Gunslinger: +20/+15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round.
Paladin: (no smite) +20/+15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round. (with smite, no double damage) +10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+20 damage, 98 average damage per round. (with smite, double damage) 1d8+36 damage, 162 average damage per round.
Ranger: (non-favored enemy) +20/+15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round. (favored enemy) +22/+17/+12/+7 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round.
Samurai: (no challenge) +20/+15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round. (challenge) 1d8+20 damage, 98 average damage per round.
(bull aspect) +23/+23 attack bonus, 1d10+7 damage, 25 average damage per round. Lowest average damage per round. Using a longsword instead of claws, +20/+15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round.
Slayer: (vs. non-studied target) +20/+15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round. (vs. studied target) +22/+17/+12/+7 attack bonus, 1d8+8 damage, 50 average damage per round.
Swashbuckler: +20/+15/+10/+5 attack bonus, 1d8+4 damage, 34 average damage per round.
Others have already provided an analysis of the amount of wild-shaping that shifters can do versus druid wild-shaping. This comparison will demonstrate how much wild-shaping each class gets at a very basic level.
Level 1: Shifter Aspect: 4 minutes/day
Level 6: Shifter Aspect: 9 minutes/day; Wild Shape (6 hours, 2/day)
Level 11: Shifter Aspect: 14 minutes/day; Wild Shape (11 hours, 4/day)
Level 16: Shifter Aspect: 19 minutes/day; Wild Shape (16 hours, 7/day)
Level 1: No wild-shaping.
Level 6: Wild Shape (6 hours, 2/day)
Level 11: Wild Shape (11 hours, 4/day)
Level 16: Wild Shape (16 hours, 7/day)
The shifter gets no more wild shaping than the druid, though the shifter does get their shifter aspect, so there's that. Not inherently any better than the druid, which is a let-down, because wild shaping is a secondary ability of the druid, whereas it's the primary ability for the shifter.
Looking at the other abilities of the shifter. Based upon our esteemed Guide builders, these abilities have been rated as follows:
Wild Empathy: Mediocre
Defensive Instinct: It's a good feature; a clone-over from the Monk's AC Bonus.
Track: Mediocre
Woodland Stride: Mediocre
Trackless Step: Mediocre
The unique abilities to the Shifter... I'd rate those as follows:
Shifter Aspect: It's all right, but you only really get to the good stuff when you use your Major form at 4th level.
Shifter Claws: This ability is mediocre, because the damage scaling is poor. The damage dice increasing only adds a point or two, on average, and would have been much better if there was a bonus on damage rolls. At least it would have scaled a lot better compared to other martial classes.
Chimeric Aspect: This is another good feature, as it allows you to take on more than one aspect. Combining the minor forms gives you some decent benefits that scale every 7 levels. The only real down-side is the time-limit per day.
Greater Chimeric Aspect: A bump-up of Chimeric Aspect. Decent, but not awe-inspiring.
Final Aspect: It's a logical extension of the class' abilities, but it's underwhelming, as it's just another bump-up of Chimeric Aspect. Chimeric Aspect, Greater Chimeric Aspect, and Final Aspect feel like they could have been rolled into one ability. As a capstone, it's not something that seems inspired or even all that interesting. In terms of power, you're controlling four aspects simultaneously, so you could have bonus to your three physical attributes and another skill or character mechanic (such as initiative or base speed), or gain another ability (like scent or evasion). The combination is decently powerful, but it's weak compared to some other capstone abilities (such as the Inquisitor's Final Judgment or the Monk's Perfect Self).
All in all, the class is mediocre in its mechanics and somewhat weak in its build. It deserves some love; an "unchained" version of the class, if you will. I wouldn't say that the basic version of the class is not worth playing, but it's definitely going to put players who want to keep up with other party members at a disadvantage.
Best wishes!
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If you are in a home game and want a class to do something specific - create it.
This is the second time I've seen this cop-out argument. We buy Paizo products because we want to play with the stuff they make. If they say we are getting something that sounds great and it instead is not even close to what we were told the response should not be "do it yourself."
What you are advocating, unintentionally, is people no longer buying products from Paizo.
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If you are in a home game and want a class to do something specific - create it.This is the second time I've seen this cop-out argument. We buy Paizo products because we want to play with the stuff they make. If they say we are getting something that sounds great and it instead is not even close to what we were told the response should not be "do it yourself."
What you are advocating, unintentionally, is people no longer buying products from Paizo.
I mean, the reason I buy Paizo products is that they give me ideas for things, not that I want to slavishly obey the text in all cases. I've never encountered a TTRPG that I haven't wanted to change, amend, abrogate, ignore, etc. at least some of the game mechanics as written.
The basic question is "how much work is it to do this" since if turning something I don't like into something I do is a lot of work, I'm probably not going to do it. The shifter seems like an inordinate amount of work to turn into something I like, so it might not be worth it, but perhaps I'm missing something.
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I think having a limited pool of animal forms is a good design choice, but I wish it came with more freedom in switching between those forms.
That's why I expected at-will Wild Shape. The Druid can turn into anything from the spells their Wild Shape functions as, so the uses per day reigns them in from being able to do anything they want whenever they want. Reducing variety and complexity should have come as a trade-off for what the Shifter was originally intended to excel at (and is still stated to in ALL of the fluff despite that not being the case): fluidity and flexibility. The phrase I've seen used at least twice in official material to describe the Shifter is "Fluid in form and function," but that's not the case at all.
The shifter gets no more wild shaping than the druid, though the shifter does get their shifter aspect, so there's that. Not inherently any better than the druid, which is a let-down, because wild shaping is a secondary ability of the druid, whereas it's the primary ability for the shifter.
If you count the Druid capstone, the Shifter gets LESS Wild Shaping than the Druid, actually, as they somehow left out at-will Wild Shape not only as a basic functionality of the Shifter, but entirely from the class altogether. If you also count in spells like Form of the Exotic Dragon, Vermin Shape, Animal Shapes, and Shapechange, there's no way a Shifter can do the shapeshifting gimmick better than a Druid, though it is a little unfair to count the spellcasting.
Oh, I just noticed Druid's Vestment and Bestial Rags occupy the same slot, so you have to choose between an additional Wild Shape per day (the former) or an additional Aspect and 5 extra minutes of Minor Form per day (the latter).
If you are in a home game and want a class to do something specific - create it.This is the second time I've seen this cop-out argument. We buy Paizo products because we want to play with the stuff they make. If they say we are getting something that sounds great and it instead is not even close to what we were told the response should not be "do it yourself."
What you are advocating, unintentionally, is people no longer buying products from Paizo.
It's not a cop-out argument. Home games use custom rules all the time. It's not very often that a home game runs the game as-is. Even PFS doesn't run the game as-is, and it's the most popular, Paizo-endorsed public playing system for Pathfinder to-date.
Even on a scale of "official," PFS officials, who are Paizo employees, have had to "do it themselves" in relation to stuff that they find overpowered or unfit for their playstyle that their superior designers have created.
So, no, he's not perpetuating people to forgo purchasing Paizo products. At best, he's perpetuating Rule 0, which is something that I find most everyone on these boards agrees as being the most favorable solution to something that's unclear or unfit to be at their table.
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If you are in a home game and want a class to do something specific - create it.This is the second time I've seen this cop-out argument. We buy Paizo products because we want to play with the stuff they make. If they say we are getting something that sounds great and it instead is not even close to what we were told the response should not be "do it yourself."
What you are advocating, unintentionally, is people no longer buying products from Paizo.
I agree with Dragonborn. Telling us to make our own class isn't helpful.
9 times out of 10 I'm the GM, but on the rare occasions when I'm not I don't want to spend the time and energy begging my GM to allow some untested custom class. Especially since I've got a higher level of system mastery than most of my friends and they won't be able to make informed judgements about the reasonableness of my suggested homebrew.
Furthermore, I spend a significant amount of time daydreaming about characters I'll one day get to play, and it's not particularly satisfying or fun to meet my build requirements by constantly waving a homebrew magic wand.
I like to make builds I can have a reasonable expectation of being able to bring to most any table. That's the whole reason I come to these forums: for community consensus.
** spoiler omitted **...The fighter doesn't have weapon training.
You're absolutely right. I did. That would only add in +1 damage at 6th level, +2 at 11th, and +3 at 16th (the snapshots in my example). By 16th level, that gives you an extra 12 points of damage with that longsword. So, better than what I previously wrote, and still better than the shifter, but not stellar. Then again, the fighter is going to boost this way up with feats. Thank you for pointing out the error, though.
The shifter gets no more wild shaping than the druid, though the shifter does get their shifter aspect, so there's that. Not inherently any better than the druid, which is a let-down, because wild shaping is a secondary ability of the druid, whereas it's the primary ability for the shifter.If you count the Druid capstone, the Shifter gets LESS Wild Shaping than the Druid, actually, as they somehow left out at-will Wild Shape not only as a basic functionality of the Shifter, but entirely from the class altogether. If you also count in spells like Form of the Exotic Dragon, Vermin Shape, Animal Shapes, and Shapechange, there's no way a Shifter can do the shapeshifting gimmick better than a Druid, though it is a little unfair to count the spellcasting.
I explicitly did not count capstone abilities (as games don't usually get to that point), but you're absolutely right. You're also right about the spellcasting enhancements as well. I was going for more of a base level of shapeshifting ability. Druids are definitely superior at wild shaping compared to shifters, which is mind-blowing to me. But, I didn't write the class. I would have done a few things differently if I had.
Best wishes!
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Revising this shifter build based on Voideternal's input (i.e. removed animal totem tattoo (ape).
Please let me know if I'm getting this right:
Start: level 1 with DEX of 16, bumping to 18 with level 4 and 8 increase; WIS 16 base, +2 racial bumping it to 18, bumping to 19 with level 12 increase; CON 14; Weapon Finesse feat.
Level 15: Major Mouse form (tiny mouse with one 1d3dmg bite attack, no AoO for going through threatened squares or going into people's squares)
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3 minor aspects: mouse (improved evasion), bat (darkvision 90 and blindsense 15), bear (CON +6 --> CON 20)
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Mutated Shape feat (additional bite attack)
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Shifter's Edge feat (+15 damage to both bite attacks; apply shifter claws damage to the two tiny 1d3 bites they become 1d6 I believe)
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Beast Shape II (+4 size to DEX --> DEX 22)
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Belt DEX +6 --> DEX 28 (+9 dex bonus)
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amulet of mighty fists with agile property
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helm of mammoth lords
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fleshwarped scorpion tail attachment
total: bite +24 (1d3+24), bite +24 (1d3+24), gore +24 (1d3+9), sting +25 (1d2+9+poison 3/day Fort DC 22 or 1d3 CON dmg for 6 rounds; save every round to negate the effect)
(Will probably headband of Wis to up the AC but for now I'll limit this post to the damage output)
Let me know if this works! any recommendations to up the number of attacks or up the pre-buffed damage output would be appreciated!
Revising this shifter build based on Voideternal's input (i.e. removed animal totem tattoo (ape).
Please let me know if I'm getting this right:
*stuff*
total: bite +24 (1d3+24), bite +24 (1d3+24), gore +24 (1d3+9), sting +25 (1d2+9+poison 3/day Fort DC 22 or 1d3 CON dmg for 6 rounds; save every round to negate the effect)
(Will probably headband of Wis to up the AC but for now I'll limit this post to the damage output)
Let me know if this works! any recommendations to up the number of attacks or up the pre-buffed damage output would be appreciated!
Are you going to adjust it for the upcoming nerfed damage for Shifter's Edge?
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mutated shape gives you another appendage while in wild shape, either: bite, claw, gore, slam, sting or talons, at highest BAB.
nerf? source please... I just opened the box as the book hit my doorstep, so I'm going to keep things as is unless it's official. As shown above at level 15 it's not that powerful.
Shifter's edge is going to be made to work like the Vigilante's Lethal Grace, so it's 1/2*Level to damage not Level to damage.
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Shifter's edge is going to be made to work like the Vigilante's Lethal Grace, so it's 1/2*Level to damage not Level to damage.
Could one of you gents provide a link to this please?
I see the feat as essential to the Shifter class, as is. Much like Swashbuckler's Precise Strike class feature.
Edit: making it like Lethal Grace makes no sense. Lethal Grace is a silent STR boost for a switch hitter vigilante that has high DEX and lower STR. If you're offering tiny mouse as a major form for a class I don't think the intent is to split some of your attributes towards STR...