So a level 16 shifter with Multiattack and IUS can kick somebody 4 times for +16/+11/+6/+1 and then claw twice for +14/+14? Do I have that right? Otherwise, how would one build a shifter that would make use of their claws (a significant class feature) and their BAB (another significant class feature)?
Yes, that's possible.
Problem with using natural weapons is that they are much more linear scaling than standard iteratives, but it's certainly doable with level dips.
For example, taking a level dip in UCMonk (Scaled Fist archetype optional, but mind the MADness) would let you have access to Stunning Fist, which gives you access to Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity (oh, and other goodies like Deflect Arrows, which you can get for free with the dip).
Tack on Weapon Focus (Claws) for added accuracy and Natural Combat Style (Claws), and you're now able to use Flurry of Blows with your Unarmed Strikes and Claws, all of them being at 1.5x Strength (and the first successful attack at 2x Strength), plus other goodies. Also note that Power Attack would scale with -1/+3 across all attacks as well, due to the added Strength modifier.
However, this takes a lot of time and levels, plus a level dip, to make truly terrifying to go up against. And as I said before, can be extremely MAD with not enough Dexterity. Oh, and the Wisdom to AC benefits wouldn't stack either (hence my Scaled Fist suggestion).
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You can Bootblade bootblade
I can see this pairing really well with hyde type alchemists that grow a couple of extra limbs. Especially if the gm allows the multiattack feat.
the Extra limbs alchemist discovery will not let you do that. YOu can't get more attacks with that ability than you could otherwise.
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It seems the Oozemorph archetype has been written off too quickly.
While obviously unintended, it really does highlight the issue with the way the archetype was written and is frankly hilarious.
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For me, the biggest changes on structural level are likely needed in the minor aspects and wild shape as a whole. As it stands, they are just ports of either the hunter's aspect or wildshape in terms of uses per day and limitations and when removed from those classes and the abilities that contextualize those limitations (aka animal companions, casting, better weapons list, etc.) without any modifications they are left essentially nerfed and hamstrung in ways that a class who lacks the power that is an animal companion or casting shouldn't have to deal with.
Before I go any further, I want to preface all of my editing notes with the statment that on a conceptual level I have no problem with the shifter's wildshape forcing you into a small list of shapes over the course of your career rather than having the ability to turn into anything under the sun. It's a solid limitation that should allow you to make each option even strong in some form or another than whatever a base wildshape might get. All the mods I talk about from here on out follow this line of thinking and should be looked at through that lens.
Now, I feel like a shifter's wildshape should either remove one of its limitations (i.e. uses per day or hour limit) or change how changing forms interacts with this limitation. As it stands, wildshapes are so finite throughout most of your leveling experience that you are going to either ignore using it in most circumstances where your GM or the devs might want you to use them unless it's life & death and/or players will be more incentivized and pressured to take the most optimal aspects to the exclusion of all others. Basically why would anyone ever use their mouse form when it means they cannot use their tiger/bull/deinonychus form, and with the all or nothing nature of wildshape's use, turning into the mouse for 20 minutes to scout the next few rooms or listen into the nobles conspiring in the other room and turning back means I've in reality burned out somewhere between 4-20 hours of use depending on my level, and that is just too much for all but the most caddy corner of cases with either a very devoted or mislead player or a VERY specific game type.
And designing a core class ability like that basically sets up a scenario that says, "If you don't pick the exact optimal aspect this game will punish you through the mechanics alone."
It's the crossbow problem all over again.
Now, I don't know how this balances at higher levels as this could leave you with more hours of wildshape than hours in the day in a detrimental way but, if my biggest complaint about the shifter is that it can shift TOO MUCH than I think many of us would be happy lol.
where though the latter is "physically" stronger in some ways,
staying in it is still a limitation to a lot of other important tasks such as diplomacy, intrigue, or investigation that doesn't immediately need them to be like a bear or a mouse.
I feel like this still ends up with a bit more wonky bookkeeping than option 1 since you are still tracking uses per day and lvl based duration but has the most in common with the previous design,
and is therefore more likely to scale with power expectations in a similar manner.
Now, those are just a few of the first passes I've fiddled with on the Shifter, I'd like to hear what people think and if you want to hear more I can throw up some of the other changes I've messed with since I got my hands of my copy of the book.
It seems the Oozemorph archetype has been written off too quickly.
While obviously unintended, it really does highlight the issue with the way the archetype was written and is frankly hilarious.
The solution, I suspect, is to set the DC for the "Profession (Teacher)" check to teach someone Druidic very high (like 30ish?)
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Just because the student doesn't learn doesn't mean the teacher didn't teach.
It seems the Oozemorph archetype has been written off too quickly.
While obviously unintended, it really does highlight the issue with the way the archetype was written and is frankly hilarious.
LOL That I overlooked. Genius!
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Other question: Does anyone know if you're allowed to mix & match aspects and wildshapes BEFORE you get chimeric form? RAW seems to indicate that the answer NOT NO, but with how the rules are written it seems like you're not supposed to be doing that before you get chimeric form at 9th. Anyone know if this has been raised before and if the devs have weighed in on it?
Other question: Does anyone know if you're allowed to mix & match aspects and wildshapes BEFORE you get chimeric form? RAW seems to indicate that the answer NOT NO, but with how the rules are written it seems like you're not supposed to be doing that before you get chimeric form at 9th. Anyone know if this has been raised before and if the devs have weighed in on it?
Chimeric Aspect lets you take on two minor forms. You can mix and match a major form from one aspect and a minor form from another as soon as you have Shifter Aspect, Wild Shape, and your second aspect at 5th level.
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It seems the Oozemorph archetype has been written off too quickly.
While obviously unintended, it really does highlight the issue with the way the archetype was written and is frankly hilarious.
Ok that's funny right there I don't care who you are.
You can Bootblade bootblade
I can see this pairing really well with hyde type alchemists that grow a couple of extra limbs. Especially if the gm allows the multiattack feat.the Extra limbs alchemist discovery will not let you do that. YOu can't get more attacks with that ability than you could otherwise.
Ah well that is chump then. For some reason I thought this was lumped into the 'metaphorical hand' thing - but newp.
Ah well that is chump then. For some reason I thought this was lumped into the 'metaphorical hand' thing - but newp.
metaphorical hands stops you from dual wielding greatswords with your extra hands of mutant freakiness (which would technically not be extra attacks)
SO this is perhaps a silly question since everyone's concerned with bigger issues than this, but what is best for a shifter's armoring? Bracers of Armor, or Wild Studded Leather, or some kind of heavier wild armor (Hide or stoneplate?), or nothing, just good dex and the wisdom bonus and save money?
Likewise, Amulet of Mighty Fists seems like an obvious choice to me since it benefits your claws and any natural weapons, but is it too expensive to be worth it?
or am I misunderstanding how wondrous items work in wild shape?
Dex wisdom bonus and a wand of mage armor or a runestone/pearl of power to hand your friendly neighborhood robe wearer.
I suppose that is pretty efficient, since pearls of power or wands cost way less than +4 bracers. It's probably more reliable in Society than a lot of home games though.
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SO this is perhaps a silly question since everyone's concerned with bigger issues than this, but what is best for a shifter's armoring? Bracers of Armor, or Wild Studded Leather, or some kind of heavier wild armor (Hide or stoneplate?), or nothing, just good dex and the wisdom bonus and save money?
You can get medium or heavy armor made of all sorts of things if you like. Eventually, that's almost certainly what you want, with the Wild enchantment (my above build gets +5 AC from a +1 Wild Breastplate over no armor at all). But that's eventually. Probably around 10th level at the very earliest. Before that, as noted, you probably want to be utilizing Mage Armor, that's cheap and easy one way or another in most parties.
Heck, looking back on it, that's probably what I should've done on the Shifter build. 10th is maybe a tad early for that, on reflection, and I probably could've gotten more AC if I went the Pearl of Power route and spent the rest of the money on other AC enhancers.
Likewise, Amulet of Mighty Fists seems like an obvious choice to me since it benefits your claws and any natural weapons, but is it too expensive to be worth it?
Nah AoMF is only twice as expensive as one weapon, so that's not super pricey, really. It'll lag a little behind single weapon users, but not all that much, and is right on par with the TWF guy.
or am I misunderstanding how wondrous items work in wild shape?
Not to my knowledge.
I suppose that is pretty efficient, since pearls of power or wands cost way less than +4 bracers. It's probably more reliable in Society than a lot of home games though.
In a home game you have two options:
#1: You have a caster in your party with Mage Armor on their list. Pearl of Power is absolutely reliable.
#2: You do not have such a caster and will need to pursue other alternatives.
So it's either perfectly reliable or you shouldn't do it. The first is probably a more common situation than the second. I don't think I've ever run or played in a Pathfinder game where nobody had Mage Armor except the short-lived one with the all Bard party.
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The lycanthrope and plant based shifter archetypes are not bad but the other ones are disappointing. Also we finally got fey and ooze polymorph spells but none of them were used for shifter archetypes.
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The Weretouched Shifter can use weapons as well. Though, in my opinion, if you're using weapons as a shifter you probably should just switch classes. Natural attacks are one of those class features that are overvalued, and thus come at the cost of other potential class features.
Can a shifter come even close to matching the natural attack abilities of the barbarian or slayer?
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In a home game you have two options:#1: You have a caster in your party with Mage Armor on their list. Pearl of Power is absolutely reliable.
#2: You do not have such a caster and will need to pursue other alternatives.So it's either perfectly reliable or you shouldn't do it. The first is...
Third option: You have someone with mage armor in the party but they have an erratic schedule and might not be there every time.
SO this is perhaps a silly question since everyone's concerned with bigger issues than this, but what is best for a shifter's armoring? Bracers of Armor, or Wild Studded Leather, or some kind of heavier wild armor (Hide or stoneplate?), or nothing, just good dex and the wisdom bonus and save money?
Likewise, Amulet of Mighty Fists seems like an obvious choice to me since it benefits your claws and any natural weapons, but is it too expensive to be worth it?
Remember that all you lose for wearing armor is half of your wisdom bonus to AC -- the 1/4 level bonus is not halved, so before you get Wild Shape, you should definitely go with hide armor.
The Wild armor is ultimately cheaper, but you do have to shell out 16,000 GP plus change to get +1 Wild armor for a +5 bonus to AC, so you might want to consider relying on Bracers of Armor or Mage Armor spells for an AC boost while in Wild Shape. Or, while saving up for the wild armor, you might spend your money on things like a Ring of Protection or a Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone.
The items for an attack boost would be the Amulet of Mighty Fists or the Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes. The latter item will boost both of your claw attacks at level 6+, but it has the problem of occupying the same slot as Bestial Rags, which give you an extra aspect that you can assume.
Based on Polymorph rules, you don't benefit from any kind of armor or shield items, even if they're unrelated items that grant that bonus, a la Bracers of Armor.
You'd still have to apply the Wild property to the Bracers to make them function in a polymorphed form, which means +5 Wild Bracers are the best armor you can get.
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SO this is perhaps a silly question since everyone's concerned with bigger issues than this, but what is best for a shifter's armoring? Bracers of Armor, or Wild Studded Leather, or some kind of heavier wild armor (Hide or stoneplate?), or nothing, just good dex and the wisdom bonus and save money?You can get medium or heavy armor made of all sorts of things if you like. Eventually, that's almost certainly what you want, with the Wild enchantment (my above build gets +5 AC from a +1 Wild Breastplate over no armor at all). But that's eventually. Probably around 10th level at the very earliest. Before that, as noted, you probably want to be utilizing Mage Armor, that's cheap and easy one way or another in most parties.
Heck, looking back on it, that's probably what I should've done on the Shifter build. 10th is maybe a tad early for that, on reflection, and I probably could've gotten more AC if I went the Pearl of Power route and spent the rest of the money on other AC enhancers.
As Deadman said, wands all the way! Mage Armor for sure due to the excellent 1 hour duration. However, our local home campaign (non-PFS) has even gone further and rejected the use of 16k belts or headbands in favor of 2nd level wands (CL 3rd) priced at 4,500gp. That's good for 50 combats, and we figure that's enough to last the entire AP. And guess what: if you run out, you're still out only 4,500gp, not 16,000gp... so you can buy 3 more wands before you start 'losing money' on this swap...
Edit: the above scheme requires a great buffing caster that likes to buff the martials with wands. Fortunately, our party's arcanist loves to buff us. This has led our group to have way more fun than previous APs: our characters are wearing fun stuff like a 'cloak of the manta ray' and a 'blinkback belt', etc. The stats and saves boosts are handled via wand boosts...
what spells are you using to boost your saves?
Protection vs. Evil and Prayer; they stack... does the job...
Edit: forgot to say we have a pretty kickass cleric too! :)
The arcanist themself might want a headband to increase their spells, though...
She got pearls... for DCs she got wand of fox's cunning
BTW, my character doesn't have that trait, but it would be a good addition for anyone using prayer frequently: Fate's Favored
With pro vs. evil and prayer both on, saves would be at +4, atk/dmg/skills at +2...
Based on Polymorph rules, you don't benefit from any kind of armor or shield items, even if they're unrelated items that grant that bonus, a la Bracers of Armor.
You'd still have to apply the Wild property to the Bracers to make them function in a polymorphed form, which means +5 Wild Bracers are the best armor you can get.
This is false.
Magic items provide a constant magical effect as a bonus. Only armor and shields provide armor and shield bonuses.
That may seem like splitting hairs, but that sometimes happens when you read the RAW interpretation that matches RAI. Bracers of armor are a mage armor effect, which if cast on you before Wildshape, go with you to your new form. If the spell works that way, then the item that mimics the spell must work that way for internal world consistency AND there is a RAW interpretation that matches it working that way.
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Magic items provide a constant magical effect as a bonus. Only armor and shields provide armor and shield bonuses.
These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.
Much as I would prefer otherwise, polymorph does shut off bracers of armor.
This section right here says otherwise.
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
It doesn't say "Armor and shields" it says "Armor and shield bonuses."
Anything which grants an armor or shield bonus that is tied to an item (such as Bracers of Armor) cease functioning. While it is most commonly actual armor or shields, even stuff like a Snakeskin Tunic would not grant its armor bonus.
Magic items provide a constant magical effect as a bonus. Only armor and shields provide armor and shield bonuses.These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.Much as I would prefer otherwise, polymorph does shut off bracers of armor.
I still disagree. That interpretation is not internally consistent with how the actual spell would work here.
I'll stand by that Bracers provide a magical effect as a bonus for the purposes of the polymorph general rules.
I still disagree. That interpretation is not internally consistent with how the actual spell would work here.Magic items don't cast the spells used in their creation, they create their own effects that are not identical, which means there is no inconsistency.
That's a fair interpretation and I'm sure that's probably the PFS ruling.
I'll withdraw my definitive declaration and agree to disagree. I don't believe this is the intent of the rules and I believe there is a RAW way to not read the rules as such.
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So assume your new form and then have a party member put braces of armor on you.
Bracers are neither armor nor shield. They are a continuously active wondrous item.Based on Polymorph rules, you don't benefit from any kind of armor or shield items, even if they're unrelated items that grant that bonus, a la Bracers of Armor.
You'd still have to apply the Wild property to the Bracers to make them function in a polymorphed form, which means +5 Wild Bracers are the best armor you can get.
From the PRD:
"Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)."
It is the type of bonus granted that matters, not the exact item.
That is also why an Amulet of Natural Armor is useless while wild shaped.
Oops -- never mind that part then.
In that case, I should have mentioned that the Amulet of Mighty Fists also brings up a contention issue over the neck slot with the Amulet of Natural Armor.
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The ploymorph spells grant an enhancement bonus to natural armor, so the amulet doesn't stack anyway.
If the shifter somehow gets the needed(in my opinion) overhaul and can take forms that aren't the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type then the Bracers would work while polymorphed.
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The ploymorph spells grant an enhancement bonus to natural armor, so the amulet doesn't stack anyway.
Polymorph spells grant actual natural armor bonuses, while the Amulet of Natural Armor provides an enhancement bonus to natural armor. These bonuses in fact stack quite nicely.
**EDIT** For a thread about shifters, there sure are a lot of ninjas...
Why don't more people play druids?
The law degree.
**EDIT** For a thread about shifters, there sure are a lot of ninjas...
Does that mean pirates are next? ;)