Miniatures Kickstarter Ninja Division

[TriOmegaZero]

Summersnow wrote:

I just wonder sometimes why and how an NDA or contract applies when you're dealing with a company Like Ninja Division, who apparently deliberately set Paizo up and is costing them sales & damaging they're reputation.

At what point does Paizo & especially its CS reps have to stop taking it on the chin for a company who certainly looks like they deliberately intended to stab them in the back from the start?

When Paizo determines that there is no way to proceed forward with getting backers what they pledged for.

Possibly when the reported minis awaiting payment are destroyed due to nonpayment.

[Silas Stadatilas]

Sara Marie wrote:

A lack of executive commentary in this thread is not an indication of a lack of empathy, care, or knowledge of how people feel about this. We are all keenly aware of how Ninja Division’s Kickstarter has affected our fans as well as the Starfinder brand.

However much everyone involved with this Kickstarter wants there to be simple, straightforward solutions, even discussing details publicly is complex. I am so sorry to the community who is seeking answers right now that this is the case, but however much we'd love to be frank and open with details, this is exponentially more complicated than zipping off a forum post.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you, again. Over three weeks ago we were told that the CCO/Publisher was working on a statement that would be provided to us 'soon'. After almost two weeks had gone by from that point, I posted two hours early, I asked when I could expect a post. You replied that the CCO/Publisher wanted to hold off because of the GAMA Trade Show was over. To paraphrase, you stated that he did not want to drop a post and then disappear. GAMA ended March 15th. I asked when it would be appropriate to again bring up that we had not received a response. You told us that you would provide us an update on Monday, March 18th. You provided us an update that you could provide no concrete update.

Every time you deal with customer service now you will be told how much they care about you. They will tell you how important you are. Inevitably, after all of these reassurances, you continue to have the same problems because they tell you they care about you but they never deliver results. Please don't tell me how much Paizo's Executives care about me or the victims of this Kickstarter, because the impression that your giving is that they care very little. (Caring has levels like everything else, you can care very little or you can care about something deeply. Both are statements that you 'care', the problem is when you don't quantify how much they care and they take no actions to show how much they care.) They clearly do not care enough to take the time to post a cohesive statement on this forum.

Ah, next your going to say they can't because of the Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA). First of all, assuming one exists, can Paizo tell us with a straight face that they are concerned that Ninja Division, a company that repeatedly tells us they are broke, are really going to sue them for breach of contract? Seriously? Also, if the NDA was really something holding them back, has Paizo sought to modify it? A first year law student will tell you that parties have a duty to mitigate damages. Paizo is being damaged due to Ninja Divisions failure to provide the product it contracted to provide in this Kickstarter. It would not be difficult to enter a modification or voiding parts or all of an NDA. Hey Paizo, have you tried? If your customers and those who have been harmed by this kickstarter are so important have you even tried to modify the NDA so you can be open and transparent? Or, just throwing this out there, is the existence of an NDA a convenient excuse for not answering uncomfortable questions, such as did you vouch for a the ability of a financially insolvent company to deliver on a kickstarter so that company could raise almost a half a million dollars while your company got a little over a 6 percent cut?

A poster sugguested we post specific questions for Paizo to answer as a way to help. We have been, and many remained unanswered or unadressed. I am still waiting to hear if Paizo has indeed received the approximately forty thousand dollars from Ninja Division for the license in this Kickstarter, and if they think it is appropriate to reatin those funds considering that fulfillment has been exceedingly poor and will likely never be completed?

I've given numerous suggestions to Paizo in this thread, I want them to succeed. Unfortunately, months have gone by and the only new information has come from outside sources (a poor Ninja Division post that allowed us to extrapolate royalties to Paizo) and now we are getting rumors that the company that actually produced the minitures but was never paid for them is going to destroy the stock rather than continue to store the minitures as they continue to incur storage costs and taxes at the end of the month. If that rumor is true, there is even less of a chance for this kickstarter to ever be resolved. Information isn't coming from Paizo. Customer Service may say they are our advocates, but, like the Executives, they are showing no results. All of our information is coming from other sources. Again, Customer Service tells me that they care, but, when push comes to shove, the company matters more to Customer Service that I do, or the backers of this Kickstarter do.

So, is Paizo simply providing a forum, or does Paizo care enough to provide actual information? Does Paizo care enough about the backers to divest itself from the proceeds that it received from the kickstarter? Does Paizo care enough about the backers of this Kickstarter, people the COO and CCO/Publisher assured that Ninja Division would be successful in following through with their Kickstarter promises, to take concrete steps to make things even partially right? Does Paizo care enough to actually sit down, spend a few hours, and put together a comprehensive response and appology to the victims of this kickstarter?

Please stop telling me you care, and do something that shows me that you care.

I like this game, and in general, your products. Please stop shooting yourselves in the foot, pull off the bandaid, admit you made a mistake dealing with Ninja, use that 40k and make some kind of appology gift for the backers, and move on.

[TriOmegaZero]

Ninja Division may not be able to sue for breach of NDA, but Paizo setting the precedent of breaking contracts would be very poorly viewed in the eyes of their current and future partners.

[Summersnow]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Ninja Division may not be able to sue for breach of NDA, but Paizo setting the precedent of breaking contracts would be very poorly viewed in the eyes of their current and future partners.

Given the provocation by Ninja Division I wouldn't want Paizo to work with a company that took offense at them "breaking contract" when it seems clear that Ninja Division deliberately entered into said contract fraudulently with the intention to screw Paizo from the get go.

[Ninjaphoenix]

I don't post much, but I feel I too need to speak. I was an all in backer and even got the dragon add on. I was hesitant due to everyone pointing out ND previous track record of failure per se. It was only at Paizos representatives assurance that they had full confidence in ND to deliver that I decided to back. I even backed the Seoni statue.

All I have received is about a dozen minis of adequate quality (one even being broken) and out around $500. I loved playing both Starfinder and Pathfinder, but this Kickstarter has left a bad taste in my mouth for supporting Paizo further. Its a shame as I really did enjoy their products, but now like many, that $500 loss is a hard pill to swallow when ever I think about PF/SF.

I know there is many wheels turning on things that can be or can't be said. I have nearly every PF product, so I have spent thousands on this system over the years. In my mind the only satisfaction I would get to resolve this would be either A. Getting the minis. B. A refund for what was not received or C. for Paizo to offer some sort of credit (even if just for digital product) to near the amount lost. An apology would be great too.

I want to support Paizo, but like every relationship (Even a business one on consumer / content creator) communication is vital. I'm, sorry you hung out with the wrong crowd Paizo, but you've changed. You won't talk, you seem to be hiding things. Right now I need some space, to sort through this all. We need a break. I think I should see other game developers. When you get things sorted and worked out; then you can call me. Maybe then we can give it another shot.

[TriOmegaZero]

"Summersnow” wrote:

Given the provocation by Ninja Division I wouldn't want Paizo to work with a company that took offense at them "breaking contract" when it seems clear that Ninja Division deliberately entered into said contract fraudulently with the intention to screw Paizo from the get go.

There is a lot of understandable but speculative rethoric in that response, so I will return to watching this thread rather than continue inciting you.

[technarken]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

"Summersnow” wrote:

Given the provocation by Ninja Division I wouldn't want Paizo to work with a company that took offense at them "breaking contract" when it seems clear that Ninja Division deliberately entered into said contract fraudulently with the intention to screw Paizo from the get go.

There is a lot of understandable but speculative rethoric in that response, so I will return to watching this thread rather than continue inciting you.

Concrete information has a way of eliminating speculation.

[TriOmegaZero]

I haven't seen anything like that, but then I haven't really been looking.

[Sabirwolf]

Honestly I really do feel like this topic is just a can getting repeatedly kicked down the road into perpetuity.

I know and understand that there's not much that can be said or done at the moment, I know CS is 'walking a fine line', and I know they 'care', but seriously, we keep getting told that X is going to make a statement soon, BUT...

Each event that is supposedly the reason we need to wait a little longer before we hear something other than the same line we got from the beginning comes and goes, and frankly it's starting to turn into white noise. We may not be getting 'radio silence', but endless static is starting to get old, especially now that the newest hurdle is 'too busy with 2E'. It feels like Rumplestiltskin, and each time a bigger room has to be spun into gold before we get our freedom.

I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed.

[SCSi]

Sabirwolf wrote:

We may not be getting 'radio silence', but endless static is starting to get old, especially now that the newest hurdle is 'too busy with 2E'

This is the sticking point that really got under my skin. I probably have written/deleted a bunch of posts to this extent, but decided against posting due to me coming off like a huge A-hole.

Everything else seems to be 'more important (Cons, PF2, etc)' than this. CS will say that this is def not the case, but from reading the prior posts, its being come across as totally the case. Paizo is 'too busy' to handle this correctly. If this isn't the case then they need to prove all of us wrong.

NDA's dont have to be airtight, and with ND posting their %age in licensing fees, the NDA might have already been broken on their end.

The lack of concrete info/CS admitting that its NDA's that are the blocking factor/etc makes me think that some deals were made under the table/favors made and the reputation of the higher-ups are more important than the reputation of the Paizotanic they are plowing slowly into the iceberg.

To the CS team: I feel bad that you need to be the human shields of execs that are throwing you under the bus by proxy. All of us aren't angry at you, and I hope you all dont feel targeted.

[Opsylum]

Do we have any reason to believe there are any controversial secrets going around? I mean, apart from what’s just recently happened, Paizo’s generally had an unblemished record going back to the time they were founded - like, 17 years ago. Correct me if I’m wrong. The company may have had a few people leave since then, but more or less the same people running it then are still running it now. Over the short time I’ve been buying from them, I’ve already seen them take losses to do right by their customers several times, most significantly with the Starfinder binding issue. The idea that they’re trying to cover something up for selfish reasons just seems...really out of character. Given their stellar record of more than a decade and a half, couldn’t they get some kind of benefit of the doubt? Looking at everything that’s happened since this fiasco started, I kind of get the feeling Paizo was duped into helping a friend, and have since found themselves in over their heads in a completely unprecedented nightmare scenario, where they have no idea what to do or how to approach it, beyond trying to salvage as much from the Kickstarter for their customers as they can.

Not to diminish anyone’s completely justified grievances. This whole thing has been, just, terrible. I really hope Erik finishes his response soon so we can have Paizo’s formal position. This situation just seems really unprecedented to me, and a lot of the speculation out of character for Paizo. Any one of these people probably could have found better paying jobs in video game design (or even WotC) - and some have -but the people who are working here really strike me as people doing what they love, and doing it for the fans.

[Steve Geddes]

Opsylum wrote:

Do we have any reason to believe there are any controversial secrets going around? I mean, apart from what’s just recently happened, Paizo’s generally had an unblemished record going back to the time they were founded - like, 17 years ago. Correct me if I’m wrong. The company may have had a few people leave since then, but more or less the same people running it then are still running it now. Over the short time I’ve been buying from them, I’ve already seen them take losses to do right by their customers, most significantly with the Starfinder binding issue. The idea that they’re trying to cover something up for selfish reasons just seems...really out of character. Given their stellar record of more than a decade and a half, couldn’t they get some kind of benefit of the doubt? Looking at everything that’s happened since this fiasco started, I kind of get the feeling Paizo was duped into helping a friend, and have since found themselves in over their heads in a completely unprecedented nightmare scenario, where they have no idea what to do or how to approach it, beyond trying to salvage as much from the Kickstarter for their customers as they can.

Not to diminish anyone’s completely justified grievances. This whole thing has been, just, terrible. I really hope Erik finishes his response soon so we can have Paizo’s formal position. This situation just seems really unprecedented to me, and a lot of the speculation out of character for Paizo.

I count myself as a fan of Paizo and it’s certainly my instinct to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don’t think there’s any nefarious motivation, but by their own admission it is a matter of priorities.

I’m aware that things always take longer than customers think it should and appreciate that Ninja Division are going to have to be part of any meaningful resolution.

Nonetheless, it feels to me that Erik is the person able to judge what can be said and what can’t - I would appreciate comments from him outlining what that delineation is and sharing what he can. I don’t know how long it takes to type up a response and vet it with the rest of exec, but it’s harder and harder to believe “I haven’t had time” as the months stretch on.

It begins to feel more like “you guys aren’t going to like what I have to say, so I’m going to put it off and hope I get better news before I have to say anything”.

[Steve Geddes]

That may not be fair, but we can’t really choose how we feel - the nature of leaving us without a statement is that we will all try and piece together what we think is going on.

[Silas Stadatilas]

Opsylum wrote:

Do we have any reason to believe there are any controversial secrets going around? I mean, apart from what’s just recently happened, Paizo’s generally had an unblemished record going back to the time they were founded - like, 17 years ago. Correct me if I’m wrong. The company may have had a few people leave since then, but more or less the same people running it then are still running it now. Over the short time I’ve been buying from them, I’ve already seen them take losses to do right by their customers several times, most significantly with the Starfinder binding issue. The idea that they’re trying to cover something up for selfish reasons just seems...really out of character. Given their stellar record of more than a decade and a half, couldn’t they get some kind of benefit of the doubt? Looking at everything that’s happened since this fiasco started, I kind of get the feeling Paizo was duped into helping a friend, and have since found themselves in over their heads in a completely unprecedented nightmare scenario, where they have no idea what to do or how to approach it, beyond trying to salvage as much from the Kickstarter for their customers as they can.

Not to diminish anyone’s completely justified grievances. This whole thing has been, just, terrible. I really hope Erik finishes his response soon so we can have Paizo’s formal position. This situation just seems really unprecedented to me, and a lot of the speculation out of character for Paizo. Any one of these people probably could have found better paying jobs in video game design (or even WotC) - and some have -but the people who are working here really strike me as people doing what they love, and doing it for the fans.

My read on this situation is that Paizo's role is more negligent than nefarious. I believe that Paizo wanted to have miniatures for this game near release, they were having difficulty finding a manufacturer that was interested and along came Ninja Division who swore that they could do it. Ninja Division had made some great minis before, they said they could do it, everyone wants them, lets do it. When folks correctly pointed out that Ninja Division had a poor record for kickstarters, we had the COO and CCO/Publisher double down on this forum and state what I think they truly believed, they thought that Ninja Division could do what they promised. I think they saw what they wanted to be true rather than looking at the writing on the wall of Ninja Divisions past and ongoing failures. In doing so, Paizo used the goodwill that it has created with its fans and created more sales by giving assurances that they thought Ninja Division could do it. Unfortunately, this lead to more people spending their funds with this kickstarter. It is my current hope and belief that that Paizo vouched for this Kickstarter out of misguided belief of Ninja Division's ability to do what they promised rather than a desire to increase Paizo's take from it's share of the kickstarter.

At this point, you cannot dispute that delivery is very overdue, that Ninja Division has announced that they are broke, and that Ninja Division has announced they are seeking an Angel Investor. We also know that in Ninja Division's announcement of a month ago, they listed that a little over 6% of the funds for this kickstarter went for licensing fees, ie. went to Paizo. In this forum, we have estimated that this equates to approximately forty thousand dollars. I have, repeatedly, asked for Paizo to confirm this, but they have ignored this request or outright refused to confirm or deny they have been paid.

This forum, in my opinion, has been extraordinarily kind considering the situation. The amount of money that many of the backers are out is not an insignificant sum and, frankly, people do not like to feel that they have been cheated or that they can no longer trust a company that they once trusted. Your earlier post talks of Paizo taking actions to the benefit of their customers to their own detriment. This time and situation should be no different. I've suggested at least twice now that Paizo use all the funds it received from this kickstarter to do something for the backers. Paizo can't create the miniatures that the backers are due, but they could do something. Forty Thousand dollars spread between less than 4 thousand people can do something nice. To me, what Paizo does with the funds it received from this kickstarter tells me a lot about what this company is and what it stands for. (If they did not receive any funds as part of this, well, they need to say it. Personally, if they weren't paid, I firmly believe that they would have told us that by now.)

Now, what about something that will cost Paizo nothing monetarily, but will matter. An apology. There is value to people to hear that someone will admit that what they did was wrong, and that they feel bad for the damage that their actions helped cause. Not having your customer service folks, but the CCO/Publisher and COO for that matter, both need to make a good, detailed and heartfelt apology for their role in this failed kickstarter. Folks on here have been practically begging for one, and they just get put off. At some point, when your told some other project is keeping folks busy, you can not help but feel hurt and that they really don't care. The repeated statements that the Executives 'care' rings hollow when there is no action. Not even an apology when its really clear that things have gone wrong here.

Its Paizo's very history that makes us expect better. The company that I think Paizo is would take every reasonable action to do something to make the situation a little more right for the backers. They may be doing something, and I hope they are, but their silence on the issue doesn't help. If Paizo is the company I think it is, it will use the proceeds that it received from this Kickstarter to do something for the backers. If Paizo takes the position that this was Ninja Division's kickstarter and they have no obligation to the backers, than Paizo is not the company that I thought it was and, I think it is fair to say, that you think it is.

[Berik]

Steve Geddes wrote:

Fwiw, it matters to me.

I don’t think I’m getting any more minis and I don’t think I’m getting my money back. I have an ongoing relationship with Paizo and my confidence in them has been dented - this project has already impacted on my support for Paizo-licensed kickstarters. Without sounding too accusatory of him, I’d like to hear why ND were given such backing from Paizo since from my perspective there wasn’t any grounds for confidence in them.

“Sorry, my bad” might be all he can say (and that would disappoint me), but I’m hoping to hear a more thorough explanation of what went wrong.

Obviously I'm nothing to do with Paizo and this post is pretty old now, but as someone who was a big fan of Paizo at the time, and who had a number of positive projects fulfil with Soda Pop in the past, I did feel that there were grounds to have confidence in them and I'd like to share that perspective, though I certainly grant there were potential risks too.

With their first few projects (the original Super Dungeon Explore with CMON, the second they ran themselves, and the Ninja All-Stars project) the pattern of the company had been to release stunning miniatures, generally great board game components, and pretty darn uninspired rules. After the Super Dungeon Explore Legends project did so well, they seemed to realise poor rules had held them back and had pledged to make the rules better this time. But it seemed like they were struggling to succeed at that.

Their first Kickstarter had been pretty delayed anyway, but I still got all my things fine. So I wasn't all that dismayed that Legends was running slow. I was keen on better rules so I'd want to play the game as well as paint the figures and that seemed to be something worth waiting for.

When the Starfinder project was announced a few months later I was admittedly feeling a bit more concerned. They'd had three more projects since then, two of which were late as well (though one I think only just). I can certainly understand not backing then, but I still felt it was an acceptable risk. For all of their issues with game rules, they'd still been producing some excellent miniatures. This seemed like a sensible project for them. Get back to their core competency of making cool looking miniatures while working through the other issues the company was delayed with.

Obviously that didn't work out and we are where we are now. But Paizo also had all of the information that I had and surely a bunch more about Ninja Division's ability to fulfil at that point. I can't get too mad at them for concluding that it was still an acceptable risk. Unfortunately this just wasn't one that panned out. They should certainly look long and hard at why that was, but if it fulfilled all of their risk criteria (whatever metrics they may use for that) at the time and just went bad afterwards I wouldn't be shocked.

Speaking in general to the thread. If people want to be angry, then be angry, I can understand that reaction. But honestly for me this is much more of a sad story than one for me to be angry about. I'm certainly not happy that I'm out a lot of money with very little in return, but I think this was some people trying to make a cool product and making poor decisions along the way, not people who tried to rip me off.

[Steve Geddes]

Thanks, Berik. I really appreciate that perspective. It doesn't really help resolve things, but it is another datapoint as to what might have 'gone wrong' at paizo's end.

I'm also not angry - just disappointed at ND and frustrated at the lack of information from either them or Paizo.

[ForeverQueen]

Not sure if anyone has posted anything in reference to this, but it appears they still have enough money to go to a gaming convention for a week in Reno, NV.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explor e-legends/posts/2458440?fbclid=IwAR2WRfxmCglxgf5nj5HnFO314PNc_s-vqiPvijlnfH rSmJmYFGb98T0_ejE

[Silas Stadatilas]

ForeverQueen wrote:

Not sure if anyone has posted anything in reference to this, but it appears they still have enough money to go to a gaming convention for a week in Reno, NV.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sodapopminiatures/super-dungeon-explor e-legends/posts/2458440?fbclid=IwAR2WRfxmCglxgf5nj5HnFO314PNc_s-vqiPvijlnfH rSmJmYFGb98T0_ejE

The link didn't work for me, but I went to the comments section of Super Dungeon Explore Legends kickstarter and found this comment:

Soda Pop Miniatures wrote:

Hi guys,

Sorry for the silence,

Yes, we were at GAMA, our focus was not on spending money on product presentations, well, frankly, because without moving these KSs along, we dont have anything to promote - but it was all business and searching for partners to help us move things along.

There was progress, and steps towards formulating more attractive solutions to people investing in our success, with all eyes on making sure EVERYONE here is getting taking care of - or no deal.

GAMA, the same Gaming Industry Conference Paizo attended and we were told the Paizo CCO/Publisher attended. I wonder if Ninja Division and Paizo found any time to talk, share, and discuss this kickstarter. I wonder what was said. . . .

[ForeverQueen]

Sorry the link didn't work, that is what I was referencing, yea.

[Silas Stadatilas]

ForeverQueen wrote:

Sorry the link didn't work, that is what I was referencing, yea.

Not a problem, I appreciate you posting it. With that information we can ask questions like: "When you saw Ninja Division at GAMA, did you drag them into the Piazo booth and make them talk?"

[SCSi]

Silas Stadatilas wrote:

Now, what about something that will cost Paizo nothing monetarily, but will matter. An apology. There is value to people to hear that someone will admit that what they did was wrong, and that they feel bad for the damage that their actions helped cause. Not having your customer service folks, but the CCO/Publisher and COO for that matter, both need to make a good, detailed and heartfelt apology for their role in this failed kickstarter. Folks on here have been practically begging for one, and they just get put off. At some point, when your told some other project is keeping folks busy, you can not help but feel hurt and that they really don't care. The repeated statements that the Executives 'care' rings hollow when there is no action. Not even an apology when its really clear that things have gone wrong here.

An apology would be admitting guilt and mistakes. Obviously the silence from the higher-ups mean that egos here are more important than the feelings of who pays your bills.

The apology would not be "Im sorry that we messed up" but rather "We're sorry that this didnt turn out how we wanted it". Big difference.

Of course we'll never hear what happened at GAMA regarding this issue, or if they even talked. The situation of this whole thread is obviously low priority to Paizo compared to PFv2 and GAMA by the thread content.

My players and I are seriously contemplating breaking up with Paizo over this. I know if this happened 10 years ago Lisa would be all over this thread. Unfortunate how things progress.

[Themetricsystem]

At this point leaving this thread up is causing more trouble than it's worth with the same tired points being made over and over and over.

The melodrama is reaching a fever pitch and everyone screaming about their lost money are getting out how hand, people aren't even reading the actual facts at hand here and just keep spiraling angrily until someone comes along to rationally defend the Golem... at which point it devolves into hyperbole and personal attacks which get deleted along with any post that the attack quoted.

It's a nasty cycle that is only serving to MISinform the poor folks who just want news about the project they backed.

If Paizo COULD come out and say anything they would, and temper tantrums being thrown and threatening to stop buy their products or boycott them is ENTIRELY MISSING THE POINT that they are NOT LIABLE for the poor handling, delays, and production issues that ND has. It only makes it HARDER for them to reply to your questions when the whole garden has been salted with bad info, hate, and trollfat.

[Grayson Pendragon]

I had completely forgotten about this Kickstarter. I've received 2 packages, I don't remember when I got the 2nd one. As of right now, it is the most outstanding, undelivered, campaign I had pledged. I've even had 10 campaigns come after this one that have fully been delivered. I guess that's why I forgot about this one.

Anyways, I'm only out $180. I've spent far more on the Starfinder subscriptions that are currently collecting dust since there doesn't seem to be all that much interest in it in my area.

[kadance]

How many Paizo employees pledged on this kickstarter?

[Arcaian]

Hey everyone - asking a question here for a friend. They backed this kickstarter when it first came out, and just saw the message sent out about fulfillment. Ninja Divison hasn't been very responsive, but he's moved houses recently - he's not yet had any product delivered, but wants it delivered to his new place. Does anyone on this thread have an idea how to most easily update his address?

[Sabirwolf]

Arcaian wrote:

Hey everyone - asking a question here for a friend. They backed this kickstarter when it first came out, and just saw the message sent out about fulfillment. Ninja Divison hasn't been very responsive, but he's moved houses recently - he's not yet had any product delivered, but wants it delivered to his new place. Does anyone on this thread have an idea how to most easily update his address?

Just tell him to make sure he keeps his info on Game On Tabletop (the service they were using to process the orders) up to date. That's about all any of us can do these days, really.

[Arcaian]

Sabirwolf wrote:

Arcaian wrote:

Hey everyone - asking a question here for a friend. They backed this kickstarter when it first came out, and just saw the message sent out about fulfillment. Ninja Divison hasn't been very responsive, but he's moved houses recently - he's not yet had any product delivered, but wants it delivered to his new place. Does anyone on this thread have an idea how to most easily update his address?

Just tell him to make sure he keeps his info on Game On Tabletop (the service they were using to process the orders) up to date. That's about all any of us can do these days, really.

Thanks for the help! :)

[Summersnow]

Themetricsystem wrote:

If Paizo COULD come out and say anything they would, and temper tantrums being thrown and threatening to stop buy their products or boycott them is ENTIRELY MISSING THE POINT that they are NOT LIABLE for the poor handling, delays, and production issues that ND has. It only makes it HARDER for them to reply to your questions when the whole garden has been salted with bad info, hate, and trollfat.

When Paizo was informed of ND's history of poor handling, delays, production issues and inabilities to fulfill previous kickstarters during the kickstarter Paizo doubled down and reassured everyone that ND could be trusted and backers would get what they pledged for.

I don't think its unfair to ask Paizo to explain why they felt so strongly about ND's ability to fulfill this KS, whats being done to honor the KS and how Paizo is going to get backers what they pledged for as per there reassurances during the kickstarter.

I strongly doubt the difficulty in answering that is due to backers requests for information or anything else happening in this thread, but rather Paizo not having a plan in place to back up there reassurances and promises and can't come up with one in light of ND's spectacular failure that doesn't cost them more money then they are willing to spend to make this right.

As to weather its Paizo's responsibility to make this right in my mind is based on weather Paizo's reassurances and promises were what tipped a backer into making a pledge in spite of ND's reputation.

[Burro-crat]

Themetricsystem wrote:

At this point leaving this thread up is causing more trouble than it's worth with the same tired points being made over and over and over.

No, I daresay leaving this thread up is a lot less trouble than if the thread were deleted/removed/closed. For many people, that would send a very loud signal. Paizo knows that.

Plus, you can choose not to read it. The ball is ENTIRELY in your court.

Themetricsystem wrote:

The melodrama is reaching a fever pitch and everyone screaming about their lost money are getting out how hand, people aren't even reading the actual facts at hand here and just keep spiraling angrily until someone comes along to rationally defend the Golem... at which point it devolves into hyperbole and personal attacks which get deleted along with any post that the attack quoted.

I would also say that outside of a few moments, the tone of this thread has been pretty appropriate and measured and not outlandish. People have the right to be upset and angry, and everyone is out some amount of money, and for many, it's not an insignificant amount of money. If you'll notice, the flames of this thread tend to get worse right after apologetics are posted (which are almost always baseless). To be fair and clear, it has NOT been Paizo doing that. Customer Service has walked an appropriate and difficult line.

Themetricsystem wrote:

It's a nasty cycle that is only serving to MISinform the poor folks who just want news about the project they backed.

People are sharing information they have gathered from other sources on the internet. Don't act like it's all misinformation. I learned about ND breaking the silence on this thread. And about Archon's plans. There is useful information being conveyed.

Themetricsystem wrote:

If Paizo COULD come out and say anything they would, and temper tantrums being thrown and threatening to stop buy their products or boycott them is ENTIRELY MISSING THE POINT that they are NOT LIABLE for the poor handling, delays, and production issues that ND has. It only makes it HARDER for them to reply to your questions when the whole garden has been salted with bad info, hate, and trollfat.

Maybe, maybe not? I don't know if this is the agreed upon tactic, but a lot of companies get through bad PR by just not saying anything. It's probably the most common tactic. I don't think that's what's going on here since Customer Service has participated in this thread, but none of us can know for sure until the silence is actually broken.

Claiming Paizo is not liable at all is just as disingenuous as saying they are completely liable. Maybe a post or two suggested they are totally liable, but I can't recall any posts like that and the overwhelming majority--if not virtually everyone--who is upset is not claiming that at all. Too many of the apologetics involve forcing completely binary arguments like that one, and THAT is what's not helpful. If (1) Paizo hadn't been so publicly vocal about their confidence in ND and (2) the Kickstarter not had Paizo featured so prominently--and primarily really--as the owner of the Kickstarter, I don't think this situation would be where it was. There is no doubt that this Kickstarter had WAY more participants because of those two issues.

Acting like the ground has salted here is, in itself, a melodramatic statement. Folks have been pretty patient considering it's been a couple months since this thread was re-animated and yet there are still no real developments.

[Silas Stadatilas]

Ninja Division posted on the kickstarter page an update and comments. Copied and pasted without comment.

You can find the update here or copied and pasted below: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-minia tures/posts/2460060

NinjaDivision wrote:

Status updates - Ahoy Starfinders!

Posted by Ninja Division Publishing (Creator)

21 Comments


Like
12 likes

Greetings backers,

After a rocky start to the year, we are currently exploring new opportunities to move the Starfinder Miniatures Kickstarter forward. We don’t have any major announcements to make on that front, but want to give you visibility on what we’re working on:

• Financing: We are working with investment groups to find the right financial partners to fulfill our obligations and move Ninja Division forward. We have several options for moving the resin line forward and hope to be able to reveal more details as our plans finalize.
• Manufacturing: We are in discussions with other resin manufacturers to make the transition more affordable and attractive for investors.
• Logistics: We are looking into more economical shipping methods to help cut costs of fulfillment. More US based manufacturing will be a significant help on that front.
• Promotions: We are working toward releasing premium products from our other product lines to put profits towards manageable bites of outstanding Kickstarter content. These special minis and offers for fans of our other games will generate revenue and allow us to begin moving forward.

Our online absence has led to a lot of speculation and attacks on our partners in this process. Paizo entered into a contract in good faith and worked closely with us to ensure the quality and depth of the Starfinder universe was captured in miniature form by our amazing sculpting and creative team. Ninja Division licensed the rights to the miniatures; this was not a joint business operation but a license to develop minis.

We are working doggedly to return to operations and manufacturing to fulfill your pledges. We very much understand how justifiably upset the community is, and we want to ask that you do not take it out on our partners, we own this, the fault lies with Ninja Division alone, until this product is delivered. We remain dedicated to deliver these miniatures as soon as possible. Our missteps were tragic and unplanned, as we have desired from the beginning to bring you the best possible miniatures and will continue to work toward that end.

If you have questions to these or any other matters, please reach out to us at [e-mail]. We are unfortunately responding slowly, but we are responding. Or more directly, we will be engaging again on this Kickstarter page to try and keep you guys apprised of solutions and status, even if its only that we are still working on it.

Sincerely,

The Ninja Division Team

You can find the comments Ninja Division made to other posters here: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/325468910/comments

Or, I also copied and pasted below.

You may wish to refer to the comment they are responding to for context.

NinjaDivision wrote:

“
Hey guys, @Josh/Chris - understanding our license and products: The pre-painted ranges were our first license with Paizo, and we produced a short run of promotional resins for players after those designs were initiated. This was a slow process, but a start in our relationship - the Masterclass Kickstarter was a follow-on project, as the time it took to get pre-paints to market meant that you guys would be playing with a handful of prepaints - when a full range is what the product needed. We are hobbyists, and wanted that full world to be at your fingertips and not drip/drop into your hands. We had every indication that this would be successful, and for the health of our business, and for future partnerships, we wanted to work closer with Paizo, as they have the same passion for products. The snowballing effects of our situation made this perilous after the fact, we did not enter in to contracts with any foreknowledge of imminent failure or "betting". The KS, if failed, would not go forward, and it would be back to business, it was a success, and we proceeded with all haste - I make the minis with my studio around here - so I was full bore with everything, concepts, minis, sculpting, printing, approvals, engineering, you name it - During the 2+ years we had been working with Paizo to make all these products, and as we have discussed in our releases - and as our other projects were getting long in the tooth in terms of scope and cost - the snowball started, key sales and projections were not met, and a lack of those other projects' making it to market failed to raise and maintain the huge catalog of supplements revenues that we had, appropriately, been applying to our forecasts. This is how a business operates, and those flows were unceremoniously interrupted across our whole organization, and that is when we slowed to a crawl to seek investment to cover the gaps to keep things rolling. This is literally the complete story - this is where we are today, restructuring and stoking the engines to move products out. To imagine a bunch of sneaky shadow projects and not taking care of you guys to enrich ourselves, its simply not true, It is a sad day that all our troubles came to a point at once, and it affects all of our fans and followers, this is a huge challenge, but we are not giving up. For EU backers, We have been refining our fulfillment process to get you guys, and other regions served as near simultaneous as we can, all this product will be boxed and packed out from the US going forward (to current planning) and we will have a great control over things. We are spread thin - but even short staffed, when this is going, we will ship in complete waves, get them out in groups, servicing the regions that are typically the hardest/longest to get things to first, and as they are smaller amounts of orders overall, the most easy to get to 100%. US backers, will likely be its own animal to start packing when this is all going on - but Ill provide a clearer picture when we are at that stage Like I said, we are super spread thin but I will check in more regularly, and to the best of my ability Best, Ninja John

Mar 27 2019 on #48: from the project Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

“
Hey all, we are here and kicking - YES we were at a trade show working to secure a future for getting you these minis. We paid out of pocket to attend to business and to our obligations to move things along. Grousing here is pointless. But yes, we are here, spread super thin, and working to get things going. The update covers our current status.

Mar 26 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

“
Hey guys, So a couple of quick answers. @Josh We are back to a healthy discussion with Aarchon about solutions, and working to that ends to liberate the minis (paid of course) and get an assessment of status of molds etc so that if runs were short, we can pay the additional manufacturing. @Brian - you are totally right, I eat crow on this daily, and the decision was a defensive posture while we were in a super tight and fluid situation. That instability makes us liars every time we tried to update you, we are firming up that ground to be able to confidently re-engage and move this beast forward @Chris - we'll take it all, and I am here letting you know we are not dodging out and working to get this in your hands.

Mar 26 2019 on #48: from the project Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

[Briit]

I come back here when I get an update from Ninja Division and see that nothing has changed. It's quite depressing and seems only to reinforce a toxic association I find growing in me for Starfinder and I suppose Paizo in general. Its is a shame as I really enjoyed the time I spent playing the game in the past. I've moved on, and I suppose I should move on from checking these forums and website as it just makes me more sad.

[Yoshua]

Came back to see if anything had been posted since/about Ninja Division's new post on the kickstarter asking people not to blame Paizo for vouching for them.

No?

Kk, will check again tomorrow.

[Steve Geddes]

There was a bit of information provided as to what they're actually doing and maybe a sign that Archon aren't actually going to destroy the unpaid for stock.

Personally, I don't have much faith in their ability to provide accurate information, but there is a bit there if you're willing to dig through the KS comments and updates.

[Yoshua]

Steve Geddes wrote:

There was a bit of information provided as to what they're actually doing and maybe a sign that Archon aren't actually going to destroy the unpaid for stock.

Personally, I don't have much faith in their ability to provide accurate information, but there is a bit there if you're willing to dig through the KS comments and updates.

Faith in their ability to provide accurate information?

Exactly that.

This is why I come here hoping to get any information I get from ND confirmed by Paizo. Not really happening though.

As for Archon not disposing of the inventory they have? I haven't seen why my own eyes where they said that they were going to in the first place, and until I see with my own eyes that Archon ISN'T going to dispose of the inventory from THEM? Then I am taking it with a mountain of salt. I don't trust Ninja Division to be honest. Their current 'transparency' is a joke. Choosing to tell a version of the truth because you have no current way to lie yourself out of a situation doesn't make you honest.

Until Paizo comes in and tells us what is really going on? I will have my doubts about anything ND or Archon says is happening. Paizo, even with this debacle, still has my faith as a customer. Mistakes happen and we can get pissed off about it.

Currently not happy with the radio silence. Some people may not feel it is 'silence' but having the CS team come in and let us know we are being heard isn't actually telling us anything. Just telling us they are listening.

[Robert Gooding]

Well the latest update from ND tells us that paizo has been working diligently on this problem...

By pressuring ND into admitting responsibility for their actions, which is a good step

However the clearly forced message saying to not to take it out on their partners in italics, combined with the continued absence of a comment from those who convinced us to invest in this project in the first place, tells us that paizo just wants us to go away and leave them alone.

You’re showing you care, just not about us.

[Rysky the Dark Solarion]

*blink* *blink*

[SCSi]

Robert Gooding wrote:

You’re showing you care, just not about us.

"We're not sorry we lead you astray, we're sorry that the KS turned out the way it did"

<Insert PF2 Advertisement>

[Silas Stadatilas]

Ninja Division posted again, presented without comment.

You can see the posts at the kickstarter page here. You can go through the comments to read them in context if you would like.

https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/325468910/comments

Ninja Division wrote:

“
No one asked you to be silent. We kindly requested that you direct your comments to us, harassment directed at partners is just that, harassment. -Ninja John

Mar 30 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

“
Further insinuation that there is illegal activity here will continue to be reported as spam until removed, whether it's the comment or the backer.

Mar 29 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

“
@everyone - Clarity regarding pre-painted and masterclass Two different products: We sold thousands of prepainted sets into the US markets, retailers have had access to them since they launched. That is a completely separate line of business from the prospective Kickstarter resin line we are working to fulfill.

Mar 29 2019 on #48: from the project Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

“
@ Thank you Stephen - our previous year was one of shifting sands, and we were silent with hopes of solutions that never came - I am sorry both from Ninja and from myself. I am not giving up.

Mar 29 2019 on #48: from the project Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

[Burro-crat]

Has anyone seen any updates from Archon since the fiscal quarter ended this past weekend?

[Summersnow]

Burro-crat wrote:

Has anyone seen any updates from Archon since the fiscal quarter ended this past weekend?

If you mean did they post a pic of all the starcraft mini's they supposedly have done getting tossed into the garbage, no.

I am also curious if that happened or was just a negotiating tactic they used.

[Aellia]

Archon is at Salute in London. They have warned us on another Kickstarter that they wouldn't post any updates before they come back.
Salute is from 5 April to 8 April

[Burro-crat]

Sara Marie, is there any estimate on when a statement will be made? Even just a "no later than [date]," or a "hope by" date?

[Silas Stadatilas]

Ninja is at it again. As usual, presented without comment.

Here is a direct url to Ninja's comments on the Kickstarter:

https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/325468910/comments

As usual, you might want to read them in context with the other base comments.

Ninja Division wrote:

“
I always like Hawaiian punch.

Apr 2 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

“
Ya, one of the biggest selling factors was a special mold and release technique and tech they pioneered to get good quality at a decreased part count - primarily so that you guys weren't stuck putting minis together and could basically base them and use them out of the box. It was reason enough to go with them, and both companies gave a good effort to work on solutions and make great things. We worked through some early Quality concerns, and were happy with recent delivery, and have every reason to believe that the held stock now, as we have samples of most of them, is of the quality that they are known for, and will be great minis once they are on their way.

Apr 2 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

“
Ya... nothing destroyed yet. We are working on getting them out of hock, and we are on good grounds in our discussions while we work out a solution. There is not value in destroying these miniatures, they are a priority to recover and distribute and are valuable to both entities.

Apr 2 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

“
We cannot. Paizo ultimately owns the files.

Apr 2 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

“
@ Keith - this is not feelings, this is just how we are going to monitor these discussions. We are here communicating and trying to answer questions. We are working on securing resources to get these minis going pronto - and until i have signed production contracts, Ill keep you up to date with as much as I can. I didnt say we wouldnt take your slings and arrows, but as the folks here say - we are working to get this done, try to be constructive, because everyone who reads after these comments is either learning how to deal with frustrations poorly, or constructively. And that long tail effect might not make this immediate situation better, but might make another kickstarter project a great place to explore and communicate with creators.

Apr 2 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

“
lord i hope not

Apr 2 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

[Silas Stadatilas]

So, according to Ninja, Paizo owns the model files not Ninja. So, Paizo could release the files. . .

[technarken]

Context on the Hawaiian Punch line: he was responding to my comment "It looks like JSC is abandoning us again since we didn't drink the koolaid" from 3 weeks before. What a witty comeback.

I must admit, I was misled about the situation with Archon, and would eat my hat if I had one on that.

Still don't have any explanation for why Ninja Division's financial disclosures to a state AG and to the KS backers are mutually exclusive.
Still have no concrete information about how this project is going to be fulfilled.
Still nothing from the people at Paizo we were assured would have something to say.
Still no miniatures.
Still out $400.

[technarken]

If Paizo owns the files and could technically fulfill the KS project by releasing them (with some sort of legalese to fill out) to backers, I'll happily take that. It will at least be something. I've got a buddy with a 3d Printer and everything.

If Paizo does not own the files, for the love of God call his bluff.

[Rednal]

Paizo owning the model files isn't the same thing as Paizo being in a position to publicly release them - there could very well be something in the agreement that says they can't be given to others unless X happens, and if ND is really still trying to fulfill things, they might not want the competition.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see Paizo release them or something, I'm just saying it might not be as simple as emailing them out.

[Sabirwolf]

Summersnow wrote:

Burro-crat wrote:

Has anyone seen any updates from Archon since the fiscal quarter ended this past weekend?

If you mean did they post a pic of all the starcraft mini's they supposedly have done getting tossed into the garbage, no.

I am also curious if that happened or was just a negotiating tactic they used.

Not ~exactly~ related, but I noticed that Prodos (which is also Archon) are having a 40% off sale on all AvP minis (except for the "new" ones, which means Machiko isn't, nor is the dropship :( ). People are making comments that it's odd that they're selling off all of the stock and trying to get rid of it while backers from the kickstarter still haven't gotten theirs. I was going to order both of the Machiko's, but between the time I put it in my cart and checkout, they sold the last masked one, and that's what I really wanted :(

Wondering if we'll see something similar before this debacle ends...

[Robert Gooding]

This is an open call for paizo to comment on ownership of the production files and if or why they cannot release them to backers

[Summersnow]

Robert Gooding wrote:

This is an open call for paizo to comment on ownership of the production files and if or why they cannot release them to backers

Keep in mind from Paizo's point of view based on earlier comments they have no legal responsibility to the backers. The kickstarter was done by Ninja Division under license, not by Paizo.

Also, the files in question would be set up for resin molding, not 3d printing, and could very well not work without considerable man hours of tweaking to make them printable. Just looking at the pictures from the kickstarter I see a lot of rifles , limbs, snakey tendrils, etc. that would be unprintable without supports or tweaks and some details that look to be too fine for a FDM printer.

The best bet would still be to somehow force Ninja Division and Archon to finish the project and get backers the mini's they bought.