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I know Pathfinder is set up to discourage multi-classing of any form (and indeed that what I am posting about is veering into 3.5 territory).
But are their any builds (say under level 10) involving 3 classes that are even close to workable?
I know it would never be optimal but is there anything that is not massively under-powered?
I am not thinking about 2 classes and a prestige class as there are quite a few of them (Theurge, Arcane Trickster, Rage Prophet etc.)
Biggest concern with multiple classes is incredibly delayed spell progression.
Does an Alchemist and Investigator stack for extracts? Because if it does you could have Inspired Blade Swashbuckler, Investigator, Alchemist to get Panache, Inspiration, Bombs, Extracts, Dex to damage with a rapier
Otherwise you would have to avoid spell casting classes I imagine.
Could there be something that plays off Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier for intimidate, using Thug Rogue and maybe a third class (Court Bard for further debuffs...)
Just trying to think of some crazy build ideas...
(Weirdly this is partially inspired by an NPC in Crimson Throne who is Expert, Bard, Rogue - and I was looking at a rebuild because I hate it when NPC and PC classes are mixed)
lots of martial builds multiclass fairly freely.
Inspired blade is a pretty famous one level dip.
Most martial builds can make use of both barbarian and fighter dips. Using both can be beneficial.
Monk is a famous dipping class.
Brawler is really nice for dipping too.
All of the above can be mixed and matched with any martial build.
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I've got tons of PFS builds using 3 (or more) classes that are great.
Divine Hunter Paladin 4/Life Oracle 3/Weapon Master Fighter 3/Medium 1
Unchained Monk 6/Weapon Master Fighter 4/Id Rager Bloodrager 1
Zen Archer Monk 3/Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest 7/Medium 1
Hunter 3/Divine Commander Warpriest 7/Sohei Monk 1
Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 3/Hexcrafter Magus 7/Crossblooded Sorcerer 1
I can elaborate on any of these builds if you'd like. They're all fantastically effective.
I've never played it but I have an idea for an Unchained rogue 3/Unchained Monk 1/Urban Barbarian rest of the way
Regular Monk might be better though otherwise my Will save will be extremely bad.... Then again if I go regular monk my bab would be pretty bad untill level 5
A dip of bard could be useful to get some quick spells. You can use 0-level spells constantly and get a few useful level one spells like Cure Light Wounds. Something like that could be very good to have, especially if the classes you stick to can't cast spells. Hybrid classes might also be worth considering. Three levels of Hunter gets you six 0-level spells, 4 level one spells, an animal companion, either Outflank or Precise Shot without having to qualify, and a Teamwork feat. And the companion gets all Teamwork feats you pick for free.
Spellcasting is a resource like any other; while a character focused on casting doesn't want to lose much, a character can certainly blend casting and other things to advantage. A full caster with two one-level dips is still a strong caster with full CL if using Magical Knack.
One build that comes to mind is Snakebite Striker Brawler 1/ Fighter 1/ Spell Specialist Arcanist 4/ Arcane Trickster 2, then Eldritch Knight and maybe more Trickster later. Mixing the three base classes grants a character who has sneak attack and fighting skills, and who can specialize in casting Dazzling Blade to blind opponents as a swift action while attacking them. Overall casting is reasonably strong, and is ultimately stronger than a 6-level caster, while Dazzling Blade is extremely strong. Combat involves an Agile weapon, arcane buffs, and sneak attack plus powerful blind-spamming.
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Druid 4 with Shaping Focus/ Unchained Rogue 3/ Weapon Master 3 can take medium air elemental form all day for bonus dex and flight, wield weapons with Finesse Training and Sneak Attack, and use Gloves of Dueling and Fighter feats.
I have a vague outline of a wildchild brawler/ hunter/ order of the paw cavalier kicking around in the back of my head.
I have a vague outline of a wildchild brawler/ hunter/ order of the paw cavalier kicking around in the back of my head.
If you're going both hunter and cavalier, don't forget to choose the animal you're going to ride as your hunter's companion so the levels stack. Otherwise you're going to have a mount and a companion and one won't be as effective as the other.
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I played in PFS a rather fun mix of many classes that had very low spellcasting abilities and had a lot of versatility through the use of wands. In fact, many low-priced magic items and consumables can bring lot of new possibilities to a non-spellcaster if used right.
That PC originated as a melee combattant dumping STR and aimed at making the best possible use of the capstone of the Halfling Opportunist PrC (sneak attack to AoOs). He was build to maximize AC and saves (and pile on sneak attacks) while still keeping some CMB and damage ability.
Its DPR sucked around level 4-6, but he was great fun to play.
Latest incarnation (4 years ago) was Fighter (Lore Warden - original version -) 2 / Ninja 1 / Wizard (Foresight) 1 / Monk (Flowing) 1/ Halfling Opportunist 1
And I planned to add a slew of PrCs with sneak attack later on.
Note that the DPR issue mentioned above might be solved with the more recent full-BAB classes / archetypes that get sneak attacks
I've got tons of PFS builds using 3 (or more) classes that are great.
Divine Hunter Paladin 4/Life Oracle 3/Weapon Master Fighter 3/Medium 1
Unchained Monk 6/Weapon Master Fighter 4/Id Rager Bloodrager 1
Zen Archer Monk 3/Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest 7/Medium 1
Hunter 3/Divine Commander Warpriest 7/Sohei Monk 1
Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 3/Hexcrafter Magus 7/Crossblooded Sorcerer 1I can elaborate on any of these builds if you'd like. They're all fantastically effective.
Thanks
What is the purpose of the one level dips in Medium?
I haven't ever looked at medium in detail. I tried reading it last night but was clealy not focusing as I did not take it all in
And why does the last one use cross blooded?
(Weirdly this is partially inspired by an NPC in Crimson Throne who is Expert, Bard, Rogue - and I was looking at a rebuild because I hate it when NPC and PC classes are mixed)
Well, if it's just a NPC, variant multiclassing might suffice.
Traditional multiclassing is more complex: Rogue makes a good level 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 dip, while I'd restrict a bard dip to 1 level. You can catch up a bit on rogue's progression with Accomplished Sneak Attacker and Extra Rogue Talent, while the bard profits from the good old Magical Knack trait. Combining them at the very first two levels means an amazing list of class skills, a bit of casting, various small bonuses and boosted saves, while it delays BAB progression a bit - a trade I find worthwhile.
I have had another look at the medium and understand the dip due to champion spirit
Also it feels like something that can be explained in flavour as a dip as the character not wanting to expose themselves to overly powerful spirits
I suppose a linked question is what are all of the feats and traits that can make up for lags in abilities. There have already been one or two mentioned here that I haven't seen before.
So ones I know of:
- All the 'Extra' feats
- Magical Knack
- Shaping Focus
- Boon Companion
- Accomplished Sneak Attacker
For cavaliers, there's Horse Master to keep their mount up to par when they multiclass out. Prestigious Spellcaster can give spellcasters who lose casting levels to a prestige class a leg up. Shapeshifting Hunter probably isn't worth it, but it can advance a druid / ranger's favored enemy.
Thanks, I hadn't seen Horse Master before.
It helps the multi-class cavalier bloodrager I was making for fun. A very useful one to know
I suppose a linked question is what are all of the feats and traits that can make up for lags in abilities. There have already been one or two mentioned here that I haven't seen before.
So ones I know of:
- All the 'Extra' feats
- Magical Knack
- Shaping Focus
- Boon Companion
- Accomplished Sneak Attacker
Magical Knack is the best-known trait to keep up with CL, but half-elves also have access to the race trait Bifurcated Magic and the alternative racial trait Multidisciplined. You can go crazy and combine them all - while Magical Knack and Bifurcated Magic don't stack, there is the option to have 3+ caster classes.
There are not so many more options to compensate missing levels, for example Shapeshifting Hunter is the sibling feat of Shaping Focus. Practiced Tactician is an 'Extra' feat with an unusual name. You can speed up an oracle curse's progression with favored class bonuses, but you have to take oracle levels for this.
You can find way more options to fake class features without taking any level in the class: Amateur Gunslinger, the stalker talent for rogues or the fighter archetype martial master, emulating a brawler.
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I've got tons of PFS builds using 3 (or more) classes that are great.
Divine Hunter Paladin 4/Life Oracle 3/Weapon Master Fighter 3/Medium 1
Unchained Monk 6/Weapon Master Fighter 4/Id Rager Bloodrager 1
Zen Archer Monk 3/Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest 7/Medium 1
Hunter 3/Divine Commander Warpriest 7/Sohei Monk 1
Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 3/Hexcrafter Magus 7/Crossblooded Sorcerer 1I can elaborate on any of these builds if you'd like. They're all fantastically effective.
Thanks
What is the purpose of the one level dips in Medium?
I haven't ever looked at medium in detail. I tried reading it last night but was clealy not focusing as I did not take it all inAnd why does the last one use cross blooded?
The 1st level of Medium allows you to get access to the Spirit, which gives you: lesser Spirit Power, Spirit Bonus +1, Seance Boon, Spirit Surge 1d6. Oh, and you also get some cantrips.
Basically what that boils down to is: the Spirit gives you some static bonuses based on what type of spirit you pick, Spirit Surge allows you to add +1d6 to any roll that was modified by your Spirit Bonus (1/round, a few times per day, and you can add this AFTER you find out your fail, possibly turning it into a success), and the lesser Spirit Power will give you some other little benefit (you can also choose to give up the lesser spirit power to get one extra free Spirit Surge roll per day).
The biggest use of this is the Champion Spirit. With this, you get:
- Spirit Bonus gives +1 to attack rolls, non-spell damage rolls, STR checks, STR skill checks, and fort saves.
- Spirit Surge allows you to add +1d6 to any of the above rolls a few times per day. To be clear, this means you get to add +1d6 to a failed attack roll or fort save to try to make it succeed.
- Seance Boon gives you +2 on non-spell damage rolls.
- Lesser Spirit Power gives you proficiency with all martial weapons and one exotic weapon of your choice.
So, in summary, for the dip you're getting:
- +1 to hit
- +3 to damage
- +1 to fort save
- +1 to all STR based checks
- +1d6 on any of the above a few times per day
- Weapon proficiencies
- Cantrips
It's really a pretty great dip. The other two most worthwhile spirits are Archmage and Hierophant, if you want to look into those.
I know Pathfinder is set up to discourage multi-classing of any form (and indeed that what I am posting about is veering into 3.5 territory).
But are their any builds (say under level 10) involving 3 classes that are even close to workable?
I know it would never be optimal but is there anything that is not massively under-powered?
Draconic Sorcerer 1/Scaled Fist UnMonk 1/Paladin 2-3/Dragon Disciple
Cha to Saves, AC, Stunning fist, Immunities (if 3 paladin), Some spell casting, Polymorph into a dragon, static boosts to stats like STR, CON, and INT, Natural armor, Natural attacks...
I'm sure there are a few others you can do.
Inspired Blade or Mouser (if small race going to tiny) Swash 1/ Vivisectionist Alchemist 3/Urban Barbarian 2
Dex to damage, +10 dex with Reduce Person + Mutagen + Rage, Sneak attack damage, Brew Potion, A few Extracts (If you build up the Alchemist after getting 2 Barbarian. You can accomplish by Level 3 the +10 to Dex.
There are a few people on these forums that are good at making Multiclassing monstrosities.
He was talking about being a Draconic Druid, a Dragon Disciple, a Barbarian, and a Bloodrager with a Draconic Bloodline.
I don't think you can be both a barbarian and a bloodrager. I remember seeing that a hybrid class cannot take levels in a parent class when they were introduced.
It specifically says that you CAN take levels in your parent, but you might not want to as abilities are not guaranteed to stack and you might find things redundant
(Edited to remove something that could have been misinterpreted)
He was talking about being a Draconic Druid, a Dragon Disciple, a Barbarian, and a Bloodrager with a Draconic Bloodline.I don't think you can be both a barbarian and a bloodrager. I remember seeing that a hybrid class cannot take levels in a parent class when they were introduced.
That has been changed
This is only tangentially related to the original post, but I saw a workup in the latter days of 3.5 where a player had managed to multiclass 20 classes and prestige classes into a 20th level character with a base attack of +0 as a project to design the most ridiculous character possible. It was on ENWorld. I can't remember exactly how he managed to do it, but as I recall it WAS pretty ridiculous. Saves were off the scale, too.
In the days of 3.0, my friend made a gnome barbarian 2/fighter 2/ranger 2. Really good Fort Saves, really really bad Reflex and Will saves. Lots of feats.
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I know Pathfinder is set up to discourage multi-classing of any form...
It's set up to discourage it in casters, but encourages it in martials. I.e., a barbarian/bloodrager/ranger/rogue/fighter/cleric is something you can actually make and have a ball with in and out of combat. Having SoS magic just bounce off you is something almost no other straight class (aside from maybe chained monk) gets to enjoy, because remaining vertical during fights is the best ability of them all.
I used to get good results out of Fighter X/Ranger 1/Barbarian 1. It had good movement and out of combat skills, combined with pretty good melee combat. You lose a little bit of combat crunch, but the gains in skills and special abilities are often worth it!
To avoid problems with Base Attack Bonus loss from multiclassing non-multiples of 4 of levels of 3/4 BAB classes and/or odd numbers of levels of 1/2 BAB classes, in exchange for not getting ridiculously high Saves, use Fractional Base Bonuses from Pathfinder Unchained Classes. Unfortunately, last time I checked, PFS doesn't allow this.
Some examples of combinations of 3 base classes can be gleaned from the Battle Herald guide -- usually you combine two base classes and then enter the prestige class, but this guide also gives some pretty good options for both single-class entry (uses VMC) and triple-class entry (especially dipping Fighter or Paladin in addition to your Challenge and Inspire Courage classes).
Also see the Very Helpful Halfling thread, but keep in mind that the recent Lore Warden Fighter change at least partially hosed some of the builds.
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In 3.5, we played with a Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster X. He mostly did a bunch of two-weapon fighting sneak attacking. Then one day in the middle of a fight, he dropped a 10d6 fireball, and the rest of the table was like *blink* *blink* *blink* *jaws drop to the floor*
We had totally forgotten he could do stuff like that!
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To avoid problems with Base Attack Bonus loss from multiclassing non-multiples of 4 of levels of 3/4 BAB classes and/or odd numbers of levels of 1/2 BAB classes, in exchange for not getting ridiculously high Saves, use Fractional Base Bonuses from Pathfinder Unchained Classes. Unfortunately, last time I checked, PFS doesn't allow this.
I WISH we could use these rules in PFS. I've never even seen a home game allow them, unfortunately.
I WISH we could use these rules in PFS. I've never even seen a home game allow them, unfortunately.
Maybe it's because the math looks complicated first. A player might have a better chance to convince their GM by showing the original and unchained numbers in comparison, for the given PC. Preferably without the irritating fractions.
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Maybe. Fractions are scary for a lot of people, so it's easy to see that as a reason people don't use it.
Oh well. Even if/when I get around to playing in a home game again, if I've got a cool build in mind that warrants it, maybe I'll try to talk the GM into it.
That and variant multiclassing. Another variant rule I'd love the chance to play with a time or two.
Maybe. Fractions are scary for a lot of people, so it's easy to see that as a reason people don't use it.
Oh well. Even if/when I get around to playing in a home game again, if I've got a cool build in mind that warrants it, maybe I'll try to talk the GM into it.
{. . .}
To build support for Fractional Base Bonuses, just imagine how much of a pain it would be to get Excel to calculate your Base Attack Bonus and Base Save Bonuses WITHOUT them. And add that without them, you can easily get absurdly high Saves.
I in pfs currently have what I plan to have a fighter(weapon master)3/brawler2/sentinelX which worships shelyn and uses a glaive.
I can kick adjacent targets from br and gets equvilent of +3 weapon training at level 8 and can haste the entire party. Also given a reach weapon I also have combat reflexes.
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I in pfs currently have what I plan to have a fighter(weapon master)3/brawler2/sentinelX which worships shelyn and uses a glaive.
I can kick adjacent targets from br and gets equvilent of +3 weapon training at level 8 and can haste the entire party. Also given a reach weapon I also have combat reflexes.
I was actually just thinking about something along the lines of Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest 7/Sentinel 3/Medium 1 or similar. I like combining Weapon Training and Symbolic Weapon, and grabbing Gloves of Dueling.
Something like that, at 11, would have somewhere around +22 to hit with around +21 to damage. More if two-handing something. Neat.
I know Pathfinder is set up to discourage multi-classing of any form (and indeed that what I am posting about is veering into 3.5 territory).
But are their any builds (say under level 10) involving 3 classes that are even close to workable?
I know it would never be optimal but is there anything that is not massively under-powered?I am not thinking about 2 classes and a prestige class as there are quite a few of them (Theurge, Arcane Trickster, Rage Prophet etc.)
Biggest concern with multiple classes is incredibly delayed spell progression.
Does an Alchemist and Investigator stack for extracts? Because if it does you could have Inspired Blade Swashbuckler, Investigator, Alchemist to get Panache, Inspiration, Bombs, Extracts, Dex to damage with a rapier
Otherwise you would have to avoid spell casting classes I imagine.
Could there be something that plays off Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier for intimidate, using Thug Rogue and maybe a third class (Court Bard for further debuffs...)Just trying to think of some crazy build ideas...
(Weirdly this is partially inspired by an NPC in Crimson Throne who is Expert, Bard, Rogue - and I was looking at a rebuild because I hate it when NPC and PC classes are mixed)
Back to the original post, seriously considering a x4 build for my next character
5 Swash (bravado), 1 ASL, 1 Brawler, 3 Fighter (Weapon Master)
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Feats (Including Bonus Combat Feats): Weapon Focus, Extra Pinache, Weapon Spec, Dueling Mastery, Combat expertise, Alertness, Combat Stamina, Not sure what else (1 more feat)
Feats From Classes: Weapon Finesse, EWP, Dazzling Display, Quick Draw, Critical Focus (some of these have a minor disadvantage or advantage
What is ASL?
Aldori Swordlord