Who is the paladin's deity?
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Yeah, groping (aka sexually assaulting people) is not a thing paladins can do without falling. I'd have a talk with your player about whether he understands the Paladin code.
As for archetypes, I don't believe there's any specifically geared towards sex. A paladin of Shelyn could certainly focus of the physical side of love, though I doubt this player could handle that well based on what you described already.
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according to my Translation groping is not implying discontent automatically?
You've run up against the 'denotation' versus 'connotation' problem.
In American English, 'groping' has a negative connotation when used while talking about people. It is a word that is only used in situations where the touching is unwanted.
If you are 'groping' for objects or items (because of a vision problem) then it is neutral.
Right, I just fixed that to include inanimate objects.
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Wow this blew up far faster then I expected.
I will respond to the individual post later.. when I am on my computer and not on the phone but to add a little content the only people he groped so far are his fellow teammates, all of whole from backstory requirements are in character childhood friends of his. The entire party grew up togeth....none of them have taken real offense at the characters actions.
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Are the teammate characters male or female?
Are the people playing those characters male or female?Your wording "none of them have taken real offense" pings my radar. If any of the players are women, and if this guy is groping their characters (especially if the characters are female) then you need to talk to the women away from the game, and away from the other players to make sure they're really OK with this.
Women in gaming groups often face immense social pressure to not make waves when their characters are assaulted in the game. "It's just a game." "He's only joking" And they are sometimes uncomfortable talking about the situation with other players present, especially if the 'groping' player is there.
Forcing women to put up with in-character sexual assaults just so they can keep gaming with their friends is wrong.
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Arshea and Lymnieris are solid choices for a sexually focused deity a paladin can follow, but consent is quite important for both.That great and all...but the Paladin has a detiey already. ^.^;;
He following the one of the deities from the homebrewed setting I am running the campaign in. Her name is Maara. She is the goddess of heroes, the harvest, liquor and fertility. Think of her as a mix between Dionysus and Demeter....she is also known to be rather promiscuous. The Pali is not going to fall because he is playing Paladin of Maara acutely.
Oh one more think I will put in the opening post. I am not a fan of the Alignement system. I find the idea of good and evil to be completely dependent on an individual person's point as well as the cultural norms of the region. There for I tend not to enforce the system in my game.
Well then you're pretty far into homebrew territory already, so you might as well just make up an archetype for a sex-crazed paladin that fits your campaign cuz you won't find one in the normal game.
Not all groping is nonconsensual. If the paladin is sexually assaulting people he should have fallen, but if it is consensual he should not fall. Without knowing the full situation it is impossible to determine if this is something he should fall for. Considering the OP is the GM and has already stated he has done nothing that would trigger him to fall I have to differ to his judgement.
As long as he is not offending anyone with his actions and the rest of the table is ok with his behavior I say cut him some slack.
When a Dentist gropes his patients, is it illegal?
When a Doctor gropes his patients is it unethical?
When a Massage Therapist gropes his clients is it actionable?
When a Paladin gropes his charges is it somehow different?
I understand in this case it is meant as a joke and maybe it's ok at this particular table. In general though sexual assault is not really a funny thing to be made light of.
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Groping someone without them having openly agreed to the act is pretty much sexual assault right there. Sure, there's an off chance that they might appreciate the advances, but if the character does it without knowing then he pretty much does it without caring about consent. Which is definitely not a paladin thing to do.
Alignment system aside, paladins are supposed to fight for the greater good, this can arguably involve underhanded tactics at times, maybe even teaming up with a lesser evil (depends a bit on how strict the DM is about it, but that's another can of worms). But sexually assaulting people is a thing that people do for their own satisfaction, it's not an evil that a paladin can justify. Even if you don't believe in the strict alignment scheme it's something that's definitely seen as wrong and evil even in our non-alignment society.
If the paladin uses his lay on hands to assault someone like that then it's pretty much either that he doesn't care about consent or or makes sure that he gets sexual satisfaction in exchange for healing his comrades. Either way it's quite sickening and he should've fallen long ago.
I'm also in favor of talking to the players away from the table, preferably separately or at least away from the paladin player so they can get a chance to voice any concerns they might harbor. Especially if some of the players are females. They shouldn't have to deal with that crap if it makes them even the slightest bit uncomfortable.
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Yeah, just stick to the pick up lines.
Groping is usually not welcome in most places, and it is usually a safe assumption that it would be too much for at least one person at your table. Maybe your group is comfortable with it, but most people aren't.
Heck, typically, paladins are the ones CUTTING DOWN the guys that grope women against their will.
So yeah- leering looks and pick up lines. That is the safer bet. Still a sleeze bag, but not crossing most people's line. Particularly since the character arc is growing out of that.
Sidenote- it is best if the character also has some kind of defining perosnality traits/routines other than hitting on women. Because you are going to cut down on that, which means you are going to be left with... what? Generic, bland, personality-less paladin #471?
...why is he doing that? Is he the kind of person that makes these kind of jokes as well? I don't know but to me this sounds somewhat weird.
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I'm just going to assume this is a made up hypothetical.
Or a fourteen year old.
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I'm going to second/third/whatever talking one on one with the players of the groped characters about it, just in case they are actually bothered about it but reluctant to say so.
its called fondling if its consensual
Usually but not necessarily. As CrystalSeas says it's more of a connotation than a denotation. While in most cases the word implies nonconsensual touching, it's also sometimes used to convey clumsiness (eg two teenagers groping each other) or even just roughness (in contrast to fondling, which tends to refer to gentler forms of touching).
verb (used with object), groped, groping.
4. to touch or handle (someone) for sexual pleasure.
noun
6. Slang. an act or instance of sexually fondling another person.
4. If one person gropes another, they touch or take hold of them in a rough, sexual way.
informal to touch someone's body in order to get sexual pleasure, usually when the person does not like it
When used in a sexual context, groping is touching or fondling another person in an unwelcome sexual way using the hands. The term generally has a negative connotation in many societies, and may be considered sexual assault, and terms such as frotteurism (or toucherism) may describe the practice of a person rubbing up against another person, typically using their sexual parts. Touching a consenting person's body during sexual activity, massage, or medical examination is not usually considered groping, though the term is sometimes used to include clumsy, selfish, or inappropriate sexual touching.
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Oh one more think I will put in the opening post. I am not a fan of the Alignement system. I find the idea of good and evil to be completely dependent on an individual person's point as well as the cultural norms of the region. There for I tend not to enforce the system in my game.
That's all well and good, but Pathfinder defaultly runs on an objective alignment system with actual beings and planes of existence that embody these concepts, so most of us are going to assume you play with alignment.
Also, if you've removed alignment, then what's the point of asking for Paladin help when you just want assistance with some Google-Fu to look up archetypes? It's not like you have an actual Paladin with morality and a code influencing what works for the character, just a class with the abilities (which don't actually function without the alignment system, but whatever).I'm not sure what you want here, so the best I can do is direct you to D20PFSRD, which is a great resource for finding what you want, though Archives of Nethys is where to go for lot of the deity-centric stuff due to D20PFSRD not wanting to strain the legality of posting non-OGL content. Here is a link to the Paladin Archetypes page.
As for the "groping" thing, if the players and characters are okay with it and it's all just fun between friends, that's fine, I guess. If it's a problem among your players or it makes you uncomfortable, though, you need to take this guy aside out of game and talk it over.
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Best antipaladin of calistria theme.
This is more chaotic than legal if not abuses. And indeed evil if abuses.
Another chance is letting him the calistrian antipaladin code, still being paladin standard.
Not standard paladin rules for being a pervert. But you can homebrew let him some calistrian things like the deific obedience feats.
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Alright, so one of my players is playing a Aasmir paladin and is being a bit raunchy about it. He literally is flirting with every sentient with every sentient NPC they meet, turned a fair amount of situation into sex jokes and has repeatedly groped his teammates (when he uses lay on hands).
Nothing he done has triggered a fall as far as I am concerned. One of the aspects the deity he follows is in fact "fertility and sex." I am just wondering if there is any archetypes you guys think would accurately represent an "errotic" paladin beside Channel Variants.
Look up Roland. He is the Paladin prototype and was known for his drinking and whoring....pretty much legendary for it in his day. It's possible to be a holy warrior and a hornball but it has to be done with the best of intentions and not intentionally harm anyone, both physically and emotionally.
Groping people who don't want you to, definitely violates that. To play a "Mature" Paladin requires a mature player first and foremost.
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>TFW a thread reminds you why the hobby has the reputation it does.
I'm just going to assume this is a made up hypothetical.
Or a fourteen year old.
One can only hope. Should we simply shut down the thread? I suspect a lot of people are uncomfortable by this topic.
Is there any way to sage posts here as well?
Scott if you are going to quote me don’t take only part of what I wrote. I specifically stated that if the groping was nonconsensual he should fall. I don’t think anyone is arguing differently, what I and several others are saying is that there is not enough information to make a solid judgement of what happened. A paladin should be held to higher standards, but that does not mean the characters sexuality needs to conform to your standards.
There is also a difference between players being offended and characters being offended. The second part of my post was directed at the comfort of the table and other players not the characters. If his actions do not offend the rest of the table, AND his actions are not in fact sexual assaults I don’t see a problem. If on the other hand his behavior is offensive to someone at the table he should tone them down regardless of whether are consensual or not.
Getting back to the question the OP asked. I don’t really think he needs an archetype. An archetype should be to make the characters different mechanically this seems to be strictly a roleplaying situation. Not every concept needs an archetype.
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I guess this discussion has moved far away from what the OP wanted to discuss.
He was not asking for advice on how to deal with women being oppressed and assuming these problems is simply making them up if there is no other clue for it.
As to archetype questions, it seems there is no better choices than the ones presented.
But maybe make your own "Oath of Love" or whatever.
Edit: Noticed this post from earlier and decided to quote it since I'm pretty much agreeing here so rest of my post was waste. But yeah, unless OP is asking for advice on how to handle player who is offending/causing discomfort for other players, you shouldn't really assume there is actually problem with that since we don't know context, group or what players are like. Heck at this point we don't even know if op meant "groping" in the way word is supposed to mean <_< I'm not English native speaker so I didn't realize its not another synonym for fondling.(never has gotten into conversation where I had to use either of those words, comes with being prude-ish I guess...)
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That great and all...but the Paladin has a detiey already. ^.^;;
He following the one of the deities from the homebrewed setting I am running the campaign in. Her name is Maara. She is the goddess of heroes, the harvest, liquor and fertility. Think of her as a mix between Dionysus and Demeter....she is also known to be rather promiscuous. The Pali is not going to fall because he is playing Paladin of Maara acutely.
Oh one more think I will put in the opening post. I am not a fan of the Alignement system. I find the idea of good and evil to be completely dependent on an individual person's point as well as the cultural norms of the region. There for I tend not to enforce the system in my game.
First and foremost - put all in-game character concerns aside for a moment. Real Life reference only here.
You are playing a game where (although relatively minor), sexual assault is a defining trait of a character, and a repeating occurrence in your game.Make absolutely SURE, that ALL of your PLAYERS are completely comfortable with that being part of the game experience. Speak privately with them individually, to make sure they aren't keeping quiet so as not to stand out.
If it's not OK with all of them, then it needs to be ceased immediately.
No excuses - No exceptions.
No player should EVER be asked to sit down to a game, where other players are offending them. Not under any circumstances. Not ever.
That said:
My next question, is if (as you state) the ideas of good or evil are passe' in your world, then why is there even a paladin class?
Paladins are supposed to be the gold-standard of good and honorable behavior. To have one being an unapologetic, repeat sex-offender, means you are having a class (with very strict requirements) be played completely at odds with RAW and RAI.
It's not a paladin, as the vast majority of people understand the class to be. You just have the "paladin" name slapped on it.
Call it something else, and drop the 'good' alignment. Or maybe go with a cleric, inquisitor, or warpriest variant.
I say this only because the moment you enter the public forums with anything about a paladin + offensive/dishonorable/illegal behavior, then few are going to let that premise pass and address your intended subject.
Now don't misunderstand me. Your game - your rules. And you can home-brew to your heart's content. But if you come to the general public with a corrupted paladin class, few are going to look past that, and move forward with your actual question.
As for your actual question; you can make your own archetype up.
You've already converted the paladin class to a fully home-brewed variant. So you might as well do so with an archetype.
I don't think you are going to find a (Pathfinder) paladin archetype, that fits a corrupted paladin home-brew, precisely because the game system assumptions on the class wouldn't think to go there.
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Thinking about it... there seems like multiple places where roleplaying might break down to this planned character arc.
I've seen enough anime to know where this is going- the man will straighten out his act, and the childood friend won't have to complain about that anymore....
...but that means you are going to remove what is likely the defining character traits of two characters. What does the paladin do when he is not sexually harassing/assaulting people? What does the childhood friend do when she doesn't have to get on the paladin's case?
I've seen enough anime to know where this is going- they are going to be boring characters with little defining traits after the character arc is done... Your players need more to define these characters than stereotypes of 'perverted male lead' and 'tsundere childhood friend'.
Thinking about it... there seems like multiple places where roleplaying might break down to this planned character arc.
I've seen enough anime to know where this is going- the man will straighten out his act, and the childood friend won't have to complain about that anymore....
...but that means you are going to remove what is likely the defining character traits of two characters. What does the paladin do when he is not sexually harassing/assaulting people? What does the childhood friend do when she doesn't have to get on the paladin's case?
I've seen enough anime to know where this is going- they are going to be boring characters with little defining traits after the character arc is done... Your players need more to define these characters than stereotypes of 'perverted male lead' and 'tsundere childhood friend'.
Let's hope not too many anime tropes enter the story.
* Any female offended by the 'paladin' instantly receives +20 strength bonus for the purpose of beating the "paladin" senseless for 3-5 rounds.
Target is considered defenseless against this attack.
* At some point (usually 5th-7th adventure), the party will find themselves either at the beach, or at an open-air bath.
* Somewhere, some place, inevitably, some sort of tentacle monster will be encountered.
Let's hope not too many anime tropes enter the story.
* Any female offended by the 'paladin' instantly receives +20 strength bonus for the purpose of beating the "paladin" senseless for 3-5 rounds.
Target is considered defenseless against this attack.* At some point (usually 5th-7th adventure), the party will find themselves either at the beach, or at an open-air bath.
* Somewhere, some place, inevitably, some sort of tentacle monster will be encountered.
And what I am worrying about is 'status quo is god', where no one actually changes despite 500 episodes.
Because, as I've note- the characters might end up as empty shells if the character arc ends. To avoid that, the players might end up just sticking to their shticks just to have some character stimulation.
In which means that the paladin might never stop the sexual assaults.
Which.... might be terrible for the situation you mentioned above (someone is not comfortable with this topic). The other player might originally let it slide, thinking 'he is supposed to grow out of it'. But then he never does. Which eventually gets to a breaking point for the polite player who complains, and the paladin's player might say 'you said you were ok with it!'. And then you have general table break down based on who falls where in the argument. And then things just devolve from there.
So the roleplaying problems of this idea might end up intensifying inter-player problems the idea might create. Even if people SAY they are ok with this topic, they might have much less tolerance than the player or the original poster.... this is something to be aware of.
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This has a few different issues in play.
First off, sexual contact with others against their consent isn't just a breach of Paladin code, it's a breach of Good alignment. This should be obvious. That it has to be pointed out is making me contemplating getting a stiff drink because I'm not the least bit surprised... but I am still disappointed.
Second, there is a deity for sexually oriented people: Arshea. However, all the wording in Arshea's write-up indicates it's about pleasure with a partner and building up their self-esteem too, not just using them as a random sexual 'toy' to grope whenever.
I do not plan to return to this thread, so make of this information what you will.
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People are way over reacting, and adding in their own hot buttonness to this. Groping IS a synonym for fondling, (but also feeling, searching, and touching). There is no implication of groping indicating it is unwelcome, or equating sexual assault.
Groping just means grasping or feeling for without looking. If it has any assumned extra meaning, it is only that it is specifically intimate or sexual in nature, but not consentual or not consentual.
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From Dictionary
From Wikipedia1) feel about or search blindly or uncertainly with the hands.
2) feel or fondle (someone) for sexual pleasure, especially against their will.
When used in a sexual context, groping is touching or fondling another person in an unwelcome sexual way using the hands. The term generally has a negative connotation in many societies, and may be considered sexual assault, and terms such as frotteurism (or toucherism) may describe the practice of a person rubbing up against another person, typically using their sexual parts. Touching a consenting person's body during sexual activity, massage, or medical examination is not usually considered groping, though the term is sometimes used to include clumsy, selfish, or inappropriate sexual touching
People are way over reacting, and adding in their own hot buttonness to this. Groping IS a synonym for fondling, (but also feeling, searching, and touching). There is no implication of groping indicating it is unwelcome, or equating sexual assault.
Groping just means grasping or feeling for without looking. If it has any assumned extra meaning, it is only that it is specifically intimate or sexual in nature, but not consentual or not consentual.
Beckett: I don't think this is a question of language interpretation
(like the definition of "is" for those old enough to remember).D4rtagnan's description makes it pretty obvious that the "groping" is of a sexual nature, and even undertaken during actions where it wouldn't otherwise wouldn't be warranted or expected it (without consent).
Technically, I admit it's an interpretation, but the posts describing the "paladin's' actions and how they relate to his faith, would make no sense unless that was exactly what he is talking about.
It's pretty obvious we have a sex-crazed paladin, that engages in what (our modern sensibilities), would constitute sexual harassment and uninvited sexual contact.
Now. You can argue the fantasy vs. real-life applications of behavioral expectations. But, what behavior is expected of a paladin (over 40 years of RPG usage) has been made clear USING real-life definitions.
Where I think things are getting muddled, is in delineating between the game/players (real life), and the character interactions and rules interpretations (in-game).
The real-life players need to all be OK with this component of the game, or it shouldn't continue.
If everything is acceptable on that front, then we run in to the behavior for a paladin character. The game system, and I believe the vast majority of players, would see this as being counter to the class's code of conduct.
That doesn't mean a group can't play it how they want. Their game.
They just need to know they are playing it outside of the game system's expectations. It home-brewed, and as long as they understand that, they can do whatever they want with it. It just won't be seen by most as within the rules/intent.