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Society field guide was a $20 Book - which most people have had for 3 years
Adventurers Guide is $40
I am personally against a $40 "Tax" to be able to Continue playing a character that is Legal at the time of this Posting and has been for 3 years... but Will not be legal in 1-3 Months Time and on top of that Removes the entire reason for (at least me) taking the Archtype (for me it was the Skill point bonus and not loosing the 2nd level bonus feat - I could care less about expertise)
this Marketing Strategy is getting Dangerously Close to an EA Style Cash Grab or Micro-transaction for my Liking
Notice Im not arguing the Clear Spindle ... it was a 100% Necessary Item to buy ... Im just a little annoyed that it took 7 years for the nerf hammer to come down ... that's a Relatively absurd amount of time to let something go before Nerfing it ...
Im not 100% but I think it may be the Longest period of time for an Item to be Nerfed ...
previous Recordholder was the Cayden Cailene Rapier IIRC ?
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I follow the rules.
I bought the Field Guide so I could play a Lore Warden.
I bought Seekers of Secrets so I could use Ioun Stone resonances (not just the clear spindle).
Now it seems I won't be able to use content I have paid for - and it's possible that if I want to use the nerfed versions I would need to make another purchase.
I object very strongly to this. I am not certain I will want to remain a part of this campaign if this is Paizo's policy.
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I bet like the recent replica's before now, your old sources will continue to work. Campaign clarifications will say how to update the old versions to the new versions. Yes it sucks that you'll have to look there and not just at the book you own, but your character will still be legal. They've done this for things changed in new books so far, there's little reason to think that they'll stop that now.
And if they did stop the old source from being legal at all, they'd probably do grandfathering like the summoner.
There's very little reason to think that they are going to pull the plug on your character, tell you your source is not valid, and tell you you must buy the new book to make your character legal.
and there's still the chance that the old lore warden will remain legal as is and both will be valid options.
Like PFS leadership are people and understand that people have character's using material. They have no track record of forcing people to buy new material for old characters. Like, lets stop with the gloom and doom and threats until we see what they actually do.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The wide consensus among VOs I've spoken to is that:
1) You won't be forced to buy new books to continue playing an existing character, even if a new book features a revision of something you're using from your current books.
2) If an old source is a legal source, then it is a legal source. It doesn't matter if there's another book with the same thing but new rules; if the old book is a legal source then you can keep using the old version. Unless...
3) If Paizo wants everyone to use the new version of an item/ability from a new book, then a Clarification will be issued for all other books featuring the item/ability so that they follow the same rules as the new book.
So, nerfs will happen now and then. Sometimes nerfs are needed to make the overall game better. But we'll try to make the process as fair as possible.
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Two thoughts:
1) I'm hoping/assuming that any nerfs will be posted in additional resources or somewhere similar so that no one will have to purchase new material in order to continue playing an existing character. I find Lau's post above to be reassuring.
2) Even though I just purchased the clear spindle for one of my PCs, I'm strongly in favor of its nerf and any others that the design team thinks are necessary. My biggest concern has always been intra-party imbalance. I often see a situation where one or two folks who have studied and purchased a very large number of books and who have discovered very high powered options dominate tables at the expense of less wealthy/more casual players. I think nerfs or other appropriate adjustments can be very important tools for ensuring that everyone at a table has a good gaming experience.
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Did your books spontaneously combust? Pathfinder material is not written specifically for PFS. Your books remain perfectly workable for any other form of gaming. PFS is a living campaign and you can expect things to change over time.I follow the rules.
I bought the Field Guide so I could play a Lore Warden.
I bought Seekers of Secrets so I could use Ioun Stone resonances (not just the clear spindle).
Now it seems I won't be able to use content I have paid for - and it's possible that if I want to use the nerfed versions I would need to make another purchase.
I object very strongly to this. I am not certain I will want to remain a part of this campaign if this is Paizo's policy.
Actually yes mine did spontaneously combust. All my pdfs are now not what I purchased with no recourse to download the original. Why do I have this errated nonsense when there is an errata document or at the very least not another version of the pdf?
I want the material I purchased back so I can go play it in the home games and not PFS.
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Did your books spontaneously combust? Pathfinder material is not written specifically for PFS. Your books remain perfectly workable for any other form of gaming. PFS is a living campaign and you can expect things to change over time.I follow the rules.
I bought the Field Guide so I could play a Lore Warden.
I bought Seekers of Secrets so I could use Ioun Stone resonances (not just the clear spindle).
Now it seems I won't be able to use content I have paid for - and it's possible that if I want to use the nerfed versions I would need to make another purchase.
I object very strongly to this. I am not certain I will want to remain a part of this campaign if this is Paizo's policy.
Actually yes mine did spontaneously combust. All my pdfs are now not what I purchased with no recourse to download the original. Why do I have this errated nonsense when there is an errata document or at the very least not another version of the pdf?
I want the material I purchased back so I can go play it in the home games and not PFS.
Did you re-download the PDF? If not, your saved and downloaded PDF did not spontaneously change.
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More specifically they haven't even technically changed the books you already own.
They just adjusted the options for them in another book elsewhere.
Whether or not PFS let's you use your old copy or make you get the other book is up to them.
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Did you re-download the PDF? If not, your saved and downloaded PDF did not spontaneously change.Did your books spontaneously combust? Pathfinder material is not written specifically for PFS. Your books remain perfectly workable for any other form of gaming. PFS is a living campaign and you can expect things to change over time.I follow the rules.
I bought the Field Guide so I could play a Lore Warden.
I bought Seekers of Secrets so I could use Ioun Stone resonances (not just the clear spindle).
Now it seems I won't be able to use content I have paid for - and it's possible that if I want to use the nerfed versions I would need to make another purchase.
I object very strongly to this. I am not certain I will want to remain a part of this campaign if this is Paizo's policy.
Actually yes mine did spontaneously combust. All my pdfs are now not what I purchased with no recourse to download the original. Why do I have this errated nonsense when there is an errata document or at the very least not another version of the pdf?
I want the material I purchased back so I can go play it in the home games and not PFS.
Yes I re-downloaded when the change was made to read it. I don't have access to the original download anymore.
More specifically they haven't even technically changed the books you already own.
Yes they have? This issue isn't just about reprinting in one book. That book is a symptom of a larger trend happening for the last 2 years. My PDFs downloads HAVE been altered without access to the original.
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They have no track record of forcing people to buy new material for old characters. Like, lets stop with the gloom and doom and threats until we see what they actually do.
My Halfling APG Summoner would disagree with this assessment as he was not played at 2nd+ and the PFS leadership decided that GM credit is insufficient to grandfather - I am no longer able to use my APG source material to play him.
Pathfinder material is not written specifically for PFS.
and yet...
In addition, all content within this book is 100% legal for use in the world-spanning Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign.
Because this book covers the Pathfinder Society so well and because it contains a great deal of magnificent new material for Pathfinders everywhere, we've decided to include this book as part of the core assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. What this means for you as a Pathfinder Society GM is that you will likely see references to the new rules, magic items, feats, and prestige classes in future Pathfinder Society scenarios. What this means for you as a Pathfinder Society player, is that everything contained within this book is legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play and you may begin using the material from this book immediately.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Online—PbP
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Did you re-download the PDF? If not, your saved and downloaded PDF did not spontaneously change.Did your books spontaneously combust? Pathfinder material is not written specifically for PFS. Your books remain perfectly workable for any other form of gaming. PFS is a living campaign and you can expect things to change over time.I follow the rules.
I bought the Field Guide so I could play a Lore Warden.
I bought Seekers of Secrets so I could use Ioun Stone resonances (not just the clear spindle).
Now it seems I won't be able to use content I have paid for - and it's possible that if I want to use the nerfed versions I would need to make another purchase.
I object very strongly to this. I am not certain I will want to remain a part of this campaign if this is Paizo's policy.
Actually yes mine did spontaneously combust. All my pdfs are now not what I purchased with no recourse to download the original. Why do I have this errated nonsense when there is an errata document or at the very least not another version of the pdf?
I want the material I purchased back so I can go play it in the home games and not PFS.
Yes I re-downloaded when the change was made to read it. I don't have access to the original download anymore.
More specifically they haven't even technically changed the books you already own.Yes they have? This issue isn't just about reprinting in one book. That book is a symptom of a larger trend happening for the last 2 years. My PDFs downloads HAVE been altered without access to the original.
I'm sorry, but this is the result of a choice you made. When you downloaded the new one, you should have renamed it (such as tacking 'second printing' on to the end), rather than overwriting your existing file. I agree it's annoying, but you chose to overwrite the file.
edited to use less inflamatory language
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Did you re-download the PDF? If not, your saved and downloaded PDF did not spontaneously change.Did your books spontaneously combust? Pathfinder material is not written specifically for PFS. Your books remain perfectly workable for any other form of gaming. PFS is a living campaign and you can expect things to change over time.I follow the rules.
I bought the Field Guide so I could play a Lore Warden.
I bought Seekers of Secrets so I could use Ioun Stone resonances (not just the clear spindle).
Now it seems I won't be able to use content I have paid for - and it's possible that if I want to use the nerfed versions I would need to make another purchase.
I object very strongly to this. I am not certain I will want to remain a part of this campaign if this is Paizo's policy.
Actually yes mine did spontaneously combust. All my pdfs are now not what I purchased with no recourse to download the original. Why do I have this errated nonsense when there is an errata document or at the very least not another version of the pdf?
I want the material I purchased back so I can go play it in the home games and not PFS.
Yes I re-downloaded when the change was made to read it. I don't have access to the original download anymore.
More specifically they haven't even technically changed the books you already own.Yes they have? This issue isn't just about reprinting in one book. That book is a symptom of a larger trend happening for the last 2 years. My PDFs downloads HAVE been altered without access to the original.I'm sorry, but this is the result of a choice you made. When you downloaded the new one, you should have renamed it (such as tacking 'second printing' on to the end), rather than overwriting your existing file. I agree it's annoying, but you chose to overwrite the file.
edited to use less inflamatory language
I'm not sure I understand. My old laptop is dead and contained the file. Paizo pushed the updated version without leaving the legacy version behind despite having errata documents.
I thought he was saying the downloads section would contain the old version if I hadn't downloaded or something.
Either way there really isn't a reason to pull the old version from downloads.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Online—PbP
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Yes I re-downloaded when the change was made to read it. I don't have access to the original download anymore.Did you re-download the PDF? If not, your saved and downloaded PDF did not spontaneously change.
Actually yes mine did spontaneously combust. All my pdfs are now not what I purchased with no recourse to download the original. Why do I have this errated nonsense when there is an errata document or at the very least not another version of the pdf?I want the material I purchased back so I can go play it in the home games and not PFS.
I'm sorry, but this is the result of a choice you made. When you downloaded the new one, you should have renamed it (such as tacking 'second printing' on to the end), rather than overwriting your existing file. I agree it's annoying, but you chose to overwrite the file.
I'm not sure I understand. My old laptop is dead and contained the file. Paizo pushed the updated version without leaving the legacy version behind despite having errata documents.
I thought he was saying the downloads section would contain the old version if I hadn't downloaded or something.
Either way there really isn't a reason to pull the old version from downloads.
Ah, OK, then all I can say to you is that your Paizo downloads should in the future be among the files you back up regularly. I'm especially careful about this with my first printing PDF of the Advanced Class Guide. It's on my laptop, but also on my home server. Unless both machines are killed by a power spike at the same time, I can't lose access.
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Either way there really isn't a reason to pull the old version from downloads.
Sorry to step into this but there is a very good reason to not keep old versions around after they have been updated. It would cause much greater confusion if someone was able to pick a version to download and use that PDF as an official resource.
Right now, someone can download the current version of a PDF and know that it has the most current rules included. That same someone would not need to check if PDF was version 1 or 2, or look for an errata like we have do with hardcopies.
This is the beauty and power of having electronic documents.
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Every Lore Warden I have seen was a 2-3 level dip combined with Monk (old days) or Brawler (since ACG).
I only dipped one level of Lore Warden so I could go into Eldritch Knight. The extra skill points and "All Int skills are Class Skills" appealed to me, and the Character described himself as a "Warden of Lore".
I had no clue that Lore Warden was big on maneuvers until this thread.
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Either way there really isn't a reason to pull the old version from downloads.Sorry to step into this but there is a very good reason to not keep old versions around after they have been updated. It would cause much greater confusion if someone was able to pick a version to download and use that PDF as an official resource.
Right now, someone can download the current version of a PDF and know that it has the most current rules included. That same someone would not need to check if PDF was version 1 or 2, or look for an errata like we have do with hardcopies.
This is the beauty and power of having electronic documents.
Besides, I prefer when books gain errata, that the PDF automatically updates and sends me an email to such. That way I always have the most current version of the rules.
If there was an errata document, why did you not just download that and read through it before copying over your old downloaded PDF?
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Pathfinder material is not written specifically for PFS.and yet...
In addition, all content within this book is 100% legal for use in the world-spanning Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign.So your response to "Pathfinder material is not written specifically for PFS" is to point out one specific book with "Pathfinder Society" in the title to disprove that?
Yes, the Pathfinder Society Field Guide was written with PFS in mind. So was the Pathfinder Society Primer, and probably Seekers of Secrets, as well. The existence of these three books does not suddenly mean that the entire rest of the product line even takes PFS into consideration.
I do agree with this. But I would like to point out that with Mark Seifter on the design team, that I think much more consideration of what he learned as a Venture-Officer within PFS helps inform his choices as a rules designer. And that many of the reprints in the new book as well as FAQ's and Errata are directly relateable to this experience.
So while I agree, you can't write books with a single campaign with a specific focus in mind, I am pleased to see that the trend is going towards using all that play-test knowledge to their advantage when designing new material and reprinting old material.
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My Lore Warden is level 13. He has a 14 intelligence because even with free combat expertise, he wouldn't have qualified for many of the combat maneuver feats.
If there is no grandfathering, he will have to endure his third nerf via stealth errata.
The first came with the printing of Ultimate Equipment changing the description of the whip.
Adventurer's Guide will be a double whammy: CMB/CMD hit from class changes and from the Dusty Rose prism resonance changes.
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What happened to the Dusty Rose?The dusty rose prism ioun stone's resonance went from +2 CMB/CMD to +1 CMB.
That's an annoying level of minutia -_-
I guess I won't get rid of them, because the AC bump is still nice, but for my 3/4 BAB martials that +2 CMD was a lifesaver.
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The wide consensus among VOs I've spoken to is that:
1) You won't be forced to buy new books to continue playing an existing character, even if a new book features a revision of something you're using from your current books.
2) If an old source is a legal source, then it is a legal source. It doesn't matter if there's another book with the same thing but new rules; if the old book is a legal source then you can keep using the old version. Unless...
3) If Paizo wants everyone to use the new version of an item/ability from a new book, then a Clarification will be issued for all other books featuring the item/ability so that they follow the same rules as the new book.
So, nerfs will happen now and then. Sometimes nerfs are needed to make the overall game better. But we'll try to make the process as fair as possible.
Thanks Lau. This post helps. I totally accept that we all want a thriving, fun, campaign.
I'd like to ask for some particular considerations.
Could we get advance notice of when a longstanding option is going to be changed? This would help character planning and development and might possibly avoid the problem TimD brought up.
Secondly, could any free rebuilds include characters that have not yet taken levels in a class or archetype that is revised/nerfed, but include that revised/nerfed content as an essential element? This is something that might have to be taken on an honour system, I know. It goes beyond what is currently allowed. But it is a possible way of addressing nerfs/errata that break builds.
My preference is still not to nerf. Make judgements when new material is published about what fits with the campaign and what doesn't, but don't kill off longstanding options that were never overpowered. I never heard anyone complain when a clear spindle ioun stone stopped a barbarian from killing the whole party. I never heard anyone say a Lore Warden broke a scenario.
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As far as lore warden, being best at combat maneuvers, is like being king of a trash heap.They may work marginally more often in PFS scenarios, but there are still a large percentage of time they are all worthless.
This is how I view most uses of maneuvers (and Acrobatics to avoid AoOs).
When CMDs start getting in the 50s by 10th-11th level there's really nothing as a player you can do to keep up.
Grappling casters is about the only solid use. IME.
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Either way there really isn't a reason to pull the old version from downloads.Sorry to step into this but there is a very good reason to not keep old versions around after they have been updated. It would cause much greater confusion if someone was able to pick a version to download and use that PDF as an official resource.
Right now, someone can download the current version of a PDF and know that it has the most current rules included. That same someone would not need to check if PDF was version 1 or 2, or look for an errata like we have do with hardcopies.
This is the beauty and power of having electronic documents.
The power of electronic documents is I should be able to see all the previous versions. Alternatively start including the original text being replaced in the errata publications rather than saying "Replace sentence 2 of the ability with this." In fact just do both.
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In a game with this much bloat (or crunch, if you prefer), publishing at least a few over-powered mechanics is unavoidable. I think they're better off adjusting those options (although I definitely agree that the original resource should count as owning the revised version for PFS purposes...whether or not the revision is offered in a new book).
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Yes, the Pathfinder Society Field Guide was written with PFS in mind. So was the Pathfinder Society Primer, and probably Seekers of Secrets, as well. The existence of these three books does not suddenly mean that the entire rest of the product line even takes PFS into consideration.
I didn't really want to get involved with this one, but I will try to explain the frustration.
A book was published that was then inserted into the Core Assumption. Back when it was added, that meant it was basically the equivalent of saying "everybody has access to this product". Sure, it was taken off the Core Assumption list, but the ramifications for that is an argument for a different time. The point is, anybody was assumed to be able to use it. So if I've been sitting on this great idea that uses the class as currently written, I'm SOL once the new content comes out in two aspects:
1) I don't get to make what I anticipated (fine, things get updated, let's not get into that), but 2) I don't own the legal source anymore where before I didn't need to.
I think what bothers many individuals (and the more I think about it, me) is that this existing process is akin to to the MMO "Adventures of Princesss Puppy-pants" having the great class of "Puppywrangler" available in the free "Puppies of Penzance" DLC, but then at a later point releasing an update in the "Puppywrangler" class (which weakens them) but then says, "oh yes, but even though you originally got this, you need to shell out $30 more for the "Puppies take Paris" DLC before you can play the class again. That just feels fishy (again, I recognize that's the way things are).
It's been pointed out to me that a different path was taken with the Skinwalker, which is a more reasonable alternative, but the general rate of updates at this point have been more along the Pain Taster, Living Monolith, or Summoner. Which is to say, it's not as if there aren't solutions, it's just saying that publishing a book with a significant amount of recycled content that requires you obtain it in order to make characters with that content regardless of whether that material used to be Core Assumption or not does feel like dirty pool. Sure it's happened in the past, but I don't think it's ever been to this extent.
And here's the rub - I can afford product, so I don't feel the pain. VOs get product for free, so they don't feel the pain. It's the run of the mill player that has to carefully weigh their gaming dollars that winds up getting punished here, and it's unfortunate we don't always see their point of view.
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Every Lore Warden I have seen was a 2-3 level dip combined with Monk (old days) or Brawler (since ACG).I only dipped one level of Lore Warden so I could go into Eldritch Knight. The extra skill points and "All Int skills are Class Skills" appealed to me, and the Character described himself as a "Warden of Lore".
I had no clue that Lore Warden was big on maneuvers until this thread.
I did the same, but for different reasons. I needed medium armor proficiency for my Hellknight Signifer, and didn't want to lose skills. Of course, if it becomes legal I will change it to Armiger, as I am only level 1 anyhow.
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I did the same, but for different reasons. I needed medium armor proficiency for my Hellknight Signifer, and didn't want to lose skills. Of course, if it becomes legal I will change it to Armiger, as I am only level 1 anyhow.Every Lore Warden I have seen was a 2-3 level dip combined with Monk (old days) or Brawler (since ACG).I only dipped one level of Lore Warden so I could go into Eldritch Knight. The extra skill points and "All Int skills are Class Skills" appealed to me, and the Character described himself as a "Warden of Lore".
I had no clue that Lore Warden was big on maneuvers until this thread.
Lore wardens didn't have medium armor proficiency.
"Scholastic:This ability replaces the lore warden’s proficiency with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields."
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Pathfinder material is not written specifically for PFS.and yet...
In addition, all content within this book is 100% legal for use in the world-spanning Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign.So your response to "Pathfinder material is not written specifically for PFS" is to point out one specific book with "Pathfinder Society" in the title to disprove that?
Yes, the Pathfinder Society Field Guide was written with PFS in mind. So was the Pathfinder Society Primer, and probably Seekers of Secrets, as well.
Yes, my answer to "material is not written specifically for PFS" was an example of two books which were. Bonus point for you for pointing out a third and further proving my point, I guess
The existence of these three books does not suddenly mean that the entire rest of the product line even takes PFS into consideration.
No one is arguing that Critical Fumble Decks suddenly be added to PFS, if that's where you're going with that.
[long rambling post redacted as Mr. Slanky addressed it a bit better (and with less annoyance) than I would have. Thanks, Mr.S!]
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Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Everett
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Ok, I'm seeing many people here complaining about having to buy a new book to be able to use an option; or that an archetype they were using was nerfed.
However, it was my understanding that if you have an old source, you don't need the new one to continue using the option (Like how you can use Advanced class origins for fencing grace without Ultimate intrigue as long as you use the new wording). and if an item or character option you are using is changed you have the option in PFS to rebuild your character for free, and sell back the affected items at full price.
Am I wrong?
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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I gather there's some confusion and concern about legal versions of resources.
Should the Additional Resources for Adventurer's Guide require using the more recent version of a legal character option, having any version of that resource will be sufficient for Additional Resources purposes. You don't need to buy a new book to use an option you already had.
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I gather there's some confusion and concern about legal versions of resources.
Should the Additional Resources for Adventurer's Guide require using the more recent version of a legal character option, having any version of that resource will be sufficient for Additional Resources purposes. You don't need to buy a new book to use an option you already had.
So that means that the PRD, should it get put up on the PRD, will be sufficient?
What if it doesn't get on the PRD? Then someone would need to purchase the book just so they know what the new rules are.
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I gather there's some confusion and concern about legal versions of resources.
Should the Additional Resources for Adventurer's Guide require using the more recent version of a legal character option, having any version of that resource will be sufficient for Additional Resources purposes. You don't need to buy a new book to use an option you already had.
So that means that the PRD, should it get put up on the PRD, will be sufficient?
What if it doesn't get on the PRD? Then someone would need to purchase the book just so they know what the new rules are.
I bet they'll list it in campaign clarifications. Since the PRD isn't always updated as quickly as needed.
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Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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I gather there's some confusion and concern about legal versions of resources.
Should the Additional Resources for Adventurer's Guide require using the more recent version of a legal character option, having any version of that resource will be sufficient for Additional Resources purposes. You don't need to buy a new book to use an option you already had.
So that means that the PRD, should it get put up on the PRD, will be sufficient?
What if it doesn't get on the PRD? Then someone would need to purchase the book just so they know what the new rules are.
Once the PRD's on the website, that would serve as the place to confirm the official wording for a character option, yes. Before the PRD's live, being able to reference an official version (assuming all new versions are the official versions) would be more difficult, and that's something we're keeping in mind for how we handle the Additional Resources.
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Should the Additional Resources for Adventurer's Guide require using the more recent version of a legal character option, having any version of that resource will be sufficient for Additional Resources purposes. You don't need to buy a new book to use an option you already had.
There we go. Thanks, John.
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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As long as there's some sense to the banning.
Is the option clearly better than all of the others in its food group?
Is the option sucking all the fun out of the game
Is the option so good that everyone has to take it?
Does the option completely alter the way the game is played for everyone?
By any sane measure of "should we be breaking out the nerf/banhammer for this option" the lorewarden is so far down the list that Santa's not going to be able to check him until the year 2073
The Wolf speaks my mind. While I am incredibly unhappy about the pending loss of the Clear White Spindle, I can see that it probably led to some players dumping wisdom hard. (My reason for wanting to see it stay in the game is that it makes sense in my head canon that Pathfinders would have developed safety equipment...) Still, this is one that I can understand.
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A Lore Warden revision? This still makes no sense to me. Isn't it nice to have a fighter archetype with some relevancy? When I look at all the other martial types out there with all their tricks... Really, the lore warden is a nice tame, team player.
I'm not going to spend a lot of time in this discussion because I have found most of these discussions to be somewhat counterproductive. I will say though that I don't mind rebalancing of power. But as a player, I find it frustrating that the team spends so much time fixing things that I don't see as broken.
And maybe that is the crux of the matter... I realize that we here on the ground likely don't have the larger picture from which the design team may work. Because of that, we may not understand the reasoning from which these changes flow. I get that. Honestly, I do. So here's a challenge to the design team that might help these changes go better. Can you have a blog or something about where you talk about changes that are coming, and why you see them as needed?
From the view of ordinary players, when we see changes, what we see primarily are nerfs. So I have this great fire engine in my toy box that I love because it rolls better downhill than any of my other engines (though not as fast as my police cars). It doesn't have crazy lights or an annoying siren noise like some other fire engines. It also doesn't spray me in the face like some of the engines do when we reach a certain level of power. I just simply love it. But when it comes time to recall the fire engines, it doesn't seem like the super disruptive noisy ones or the one that sprays me in the face are recalled. No, it's the quiet one that rolls well -- even if there are other toys in the box that roll far faster than it does.
The reasons for the toy recall at this point seem very confusing, especially if the toy has been one that we've been playing with three years, and that we've come to rely upon. The rebalances would not be so painful if more of them were along the lines of the unchained rogue, giving a boost to a class or archetype that could use the assistance, or that fix class abilities that simply don't work.
All that said, I want to offer thanks to the campaign for clarifying that people will not need to purchase the new book to continue using the books they've already bought. I do appreciate the time and effort that the PFS team makes to cushion the blow on some of these changes. This does help, and we do appreciate it.
Yours,
Hmm
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So, I get some of the changes, clear spindle ion stones and tribal scars (help, that feat was OP). But Lore Warden? Really? Master of Many Styles is what broke a whole style chain, and made a 5/6th lvl feat available at 2/3rd if dipping, but the feat, not the archetype got blasted. Similar to a trait that broke a nice hat (that was way to cheep). I just don't think I'm a fan of how Paizo fixes issues at times, original writing of slashing grace and compare with dervish dance, both let the off hand be used with spell combat. Now only dervish dance still works with spell combat.
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I'll try to keep this brief, as many before me have stated the case far more eloquently than I ever could have.
Nerfing Lore Warden was not needed. I purchased the appropriate source. It was vetted at that time (or more likely two months later). I should be able to continue to use it to build new characters. The fact that someone wasted word-count in a new product in an unneeded nerf is galling. Who is the author for that fleabag anyway?
Nerfing the Lore Warden behind a $40 price tag smells doubly so like brown matter. John Compton's ruling seems to kindly mitigate that somewhat, the fact that it is a reactionary ruling tells me it was an unforeseen consequence. Good Game designers should foresee consequences better.
Nerfing the ioun stone was not needed.
What's next? Nerf Deflect Arrow, because it forces Manticores to enter melee?
Nerfing Tribal Scars invalidated the entire People of the North purchase as far as I'm concerned, and you've cost yourself sales... again. Though perhaps you don't care at this point, because that's a product that wasn't moving anyway.
When every PFS-effective option is dead in the water, there will be no PFS and this saddens me.
With Additional Resource sanctioning taking an unconscionably long time, thereby causing me to hesitate with my purchase, thereby costing retailers a timely sale, thereby causing retailers to rethink carrying Paizo product at all, thereby costing Paizo shelf space, thereby freeing up shelf space for 5E....
With retro-nerfs and invalidation of PFS-effective character builds becoming more commonplace...
With the nuclear option being the first-line option (e.g. jingasa)...
With continued purchase-invalidation, double-switching, and poorly edited product...
With player benefits disappearing (Where'd that Retail Incentive Program go?)...
With the Additional Resources, no, wait, it's in the Campaign Clarifications, no, wait, it's in a blog, no, wait... dance continuing...
With a new product line (Starfinder) and only one new hire (Thursty), thus inevitably PFS must be even more talent-diluted....
I too am reconsidering my discretionary spending.
C'mon Paizo. You can do much, much better than this.
Please continue the dialog.