I've been looking at the Unchained Rogue and I am liking what I see so far. A definite improvement over the old rogue and being able to actually use the rogue archetypes is the icing on the cake. Naturally I plan to shift a rogue I had into an unchiained rogue but I need to know what would be good feats to select besides the ones I've already decided to go with.
Human with the focused study racial, Rogue Unchained no archetype.
Ability Scores:
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 14
Feats:
(Keep in mind, I am not listing them by the order with which I'll get them.)
1. Two-Weapon Fighting
2. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
3. Two-Weapon Feint
4. Improved Two-Weapon Feint
5. Iron Will
6. Improved Critical(short swords)
7.
8.
9.
10.
Combat Trick Talent:
Feat Advanced Talent:
and last but not least the Weapon Training Rogue Talent with short swords.
I am going for dual wielding short swords, and was hoping to get this rogue something to fall back on should sneak attacking the enemy not become an option, something like debuffing foes or assisting other party members.
maybe focus on dirty trick
The Dazzling Display line of feats (just about anything with "Display in it's name) make for a really nice debuff rogue.
Take a look at my merciless pirate, Kujo, who was also an unchained rogue that used these feats to AMAZING effect!
EDIT: Scroll down a few posts in the thread for further build advice on this concept.
It's a pity that the Unchained Rogue gets access to Ninja Trick but not Ki Pool, so no access to Vanishing Trick / Extra Ki. However,
Major Magic: Vanish can now grant level/2 Vanish uses per day, and that's a great thing to have, either to get things rolling with a starting sneak attack and/or easy move into flank position, or to disappear at the end of your turn when it's a wise move.
I really love the idea of using Canny Tumble and Circling Mongoose in conjunction. Of course it doesn't come online in it's full glory until level 8 and is otherwise feat heavy. But focusing on this build feels like it could be very rewarding, especially if you take the skill unlock for acrobatics.
How do you feel about dips? Three levels in Hunter will get you access to Outflank and let you share all of your teamwork feats with your animal companion. Pack Flanking means sneak attack is on all the time and frees up all of the feat slots/talents that you would have used to try to create sneak attacks. Escape Route means no attacks of opportunity against you. Paired Opportunist and Broken Wing Gambit make lots of attacks of opportunity for you.
It does change what you're doing but I think you can still be reasonably "rogueish," especially if you're a small character riding a medium sized animal.
With dipping, three levels of Weaponmaster Fighter could grab Weapon Training + Gloves of Dueling for a nice combat bonus, and the extra feats would make going into performance feats plausible. Mocking Dance with Slow Reactions is amazing combat mobility, and combined with Lunge it can get really tactical as you dance around out of full-attack reach, positioning for your next flanking full-attack...
maybe focus on dirty trickRogues don't have the BAB/accuracy for a dirty trick focus.
true.
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true.maybe focus on dirty trickRogues don't have the BAB/accuracy for a dirty trick focus.
It's too bad - I like the idea of it. I kinda expected some sort of Dirty Trick ability when Unchained Rogue came out. Debilitating Injury has a similar vibe though - not as potent, but doesn't give up attacks and works against nearly everything.
It's too bad - I like the idea of it. I kinda expected some sort of Dirty Trick ability when Unchained Rogue came out.true.maybe focus on dirty trickRogues don't have the BAB/accuracy for a dirty trick focus.
It's yet another situation where Rogue multiclassing can save the day; three levels of Weapon Master for access to +3AB/ extra feats/ better early BAB, or 2+ levels of Scarred Rager to rage cycle with bonus strength/ Strength Surge/ Reckless Abandon.
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It's yet another situation where Rogue multiclassing can save the day; three levels of Weapon Master for access to +3AB/ extra feats/ better early BAB, or 2+ levels of Scarred Rager to rage cycle with bonus strength/ Strength Surge/ Reckless Abandon.
You still wouldn't be very good at it. Mediocre instead of horrible.
The other nice thing about a Hunter or Fighter dip is getting martial weapon proficiency, which lets you use a kukri. The kukri has an 18-20 crit range, is eminently dual-wieldable, and plays well with Piranha Strike. It also works nicely with the Knife Master archetype, which gives the single biggest boost to sneak attack damage that I'm aware of.
Actually, does anybody know of anything better? Moving from 1d6 to 1d8 is on average an increase in 1 point of damage per die. None of the rogue talents save arguably bleed are as good, and the knife master bump stacks with whichever rogue talent you use.
Every time I read over the rogue talent list I feel like I must be inadvertently skipping over all of the good ones.
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Actually, does anybody know of anything better? Moving from 1d6 to 1d8 is on average an increase in 1 point of damage per die. None of the rogue talents save arguably bleed are as good, and the knife master bump stacks with whichever rogue talent you use.
A 1 level dip in Snakebite Striker can put you 1/2 a die higher for your level. Plus it lets you avoid needing a 13 Int for a Feint build as in the OP.
It's yet another situation where Rogue multiclassing can save the day; three levels of Weapon Master for access to +3AB/ extra feats/ better early BAB, or 2+ levels of Scarred Rager to rage cycle with bonus strength/ Strength Surge/ Reckless Abandon.You still wouldn't be very good at it. Mediocre instead of horrible.
Well, considering that the BAB difference between a multiclass and full BAB would be around -2/3 for mid-high levels, doing something like Scarred Rager rage cycle +2STR, +2(+?)Level, +1(+2?)Reckless = +5+? is going to do a pretty decent job, even if its not quite at optimized Lore Warden levels. Exploiting Rogue tactics like flanking and feinting and Pressure Points is also worth a bit. But yeah, it's not the best possible Dirty Trick build and you're less and less of a 'Rogue' the more you optimize it...
A 1 level dip in Snakebite Striker can put you 1/2 a die higher for your level. Plus it lets you avoid needing a 13 Int for a Feint build as in the OP.
When do you think it would be worth it? It can't be a good idea to delay dex to damage, so I can't see it in the first three. At fourth level would you rather have Debilitating Injury or one more sneak attack die?
I really do think rogue should have full BAB, even Urogue. they just don't have spells, there's no good reason to not have full BAB. they don't have weapon training or anything and so should be in general worse off that other martial characters in melee still anyway.
Much thanks for all helpful advice and hints, I should have mentioned earlier that I am not really planning to multiclass, still got some nice ideas from not mentioning it though.
In regards to combat maneuvers; isn't the unchained rogue better at them than the regular rogue since he has the bewildered debilitation? If I remember the rules correctly, any penalty to AC is also a penalty to CMD,
Every time I read over the rogue talent list I feel like I must be inadvertently skipping over all of the good ones.
There's plenty of good rogue talents. But those that improve sneak attack are mostly garbage. Even Bleed isn't that great. Your best bet for improving your combat abilities are combat Trick and Weapon Training.
It does get significantly better with advanced talents, though. Double Debilitation and Cripling Strike are both very good.You can indirectly improve your sneak attack be getting more or easier opportunities via minor and major magic. Acid splash, Vanish, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp can help quite a bit. Or you could just make your life near the enemies easier by getting shield.
With the inceased number of casts per day, Quicken Spell-like Ability is actually a pretty good feat for the unchained rogue. Quicken Vanish three times per day is very nice to have.
In regards to combat maneuvers; isn't the unchained rogue better at them than the regular rogue since he has the bewildered debilitation? If I remember the rules correctly, any penalty to AC is also a penalty to CMD
Well, the problem is the duration. You must hit your enemy twice in one round if you want him to have the penalty in the next round. After two successful sneak attacks, most foes should be weak enough to die within the next round, making combat maneuvers a waste of actions.
I guess you could sneak him with your fist attack and use your second attack far a disarm or something. But if you are in position to sneak attack already and the enemy suffers the AC penalty from the first hit, I'd much rather just sneak a second time.
@Blave I see your point, and agree that it usually is better to simply sneak attack a second time.
I've given the matter some thought, and I see that adding dazzling display and disheartening display would add the debuffing option I wanted. Maybe I'll even add shatter defenses and have yet another way to start sneak attacking. I am also planning to get the minor and major magic talents, so getting the bookish rogue feat and the arcane strike feat seems like the next logical step.
Again much thanks for the help guys, I think this rogue will be ready to take on whatever the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP throws at him.
Deific Obedience Pharasma and fighting with daggers goes a long way with such a build. Add in weapon focus.
That completely removes the penalty for two weapon fighting.
Along with other suggested feats and level 4 abilities, you have very good to hit chances!