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Yes, I'm serious. I've wanted to finish designing this world for a long time, but I want to make sure this is "Balanced" in so far as it's a tough game but the players have plenty of opportunity to overcome adversity.
So, to give a little setting synopsis without making things long and rambling, here's the general gist of the setting:
The setting in question focuses on a region about the size of the medieval HRE + Italy, probably resembling the Baltic Seas region. I haven't decided on what sort of culture I'll be using for inspiration when naming cities and stuff, but this is a setting with lots of infighting between small-time kings and feudal lords, with bandits and monsters preying on the outskirts of this region and slowly encroaching a little more with each passing week.
The inspiration for this setting is doubtlessly the video game Battle Brothers.
In this setting the gods are not a certainty. They are a matter of faith. Magic is almost always associated with old, pagan ways and with evil; and humanity is torn between worshiping the Old Ways and worshiping the One True God.
Spellcasters, therefore, are rare in civilization, but much more common among the forces of evil. Necromancers play God in cemeteries, druids make living sacrifices to old and forgotten spirits, Liches raise armies of the damned, orcish sorcerers wield dreadful powers in the name of their god of war, and evokers with slipping sanity find refuge among bandits who are willing to bear with their company in return for their fireballs.
Basically, powerful magic either drives you insane or corrupts you. Period.
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The players will be mercenaries in this setting. The individual characters should all have personal reasons for being mercenaries, but the group's overarching goal is to travel from town to town taking contracts to kill monsters (or people) and get paid. This is not a glamorous campaign setting I have in mind: this is a gritty one.
Now, with all the fluff out of the way, here's some mechanical considerations I've made. Please give me your opinions on them:
- 1. Players don't get to be 9th or 6th level spellcasters. Players can be Rogues, Barbarians, Fighters, Bloodragers, Paladins, Rangers, Brawlers, Swashbucklers, Slayers... But all those 6th and 9th level spellcasters belong solely to the enemy. Monks will have to be foreigners from faraway lands.
- 2. Save or Die will NOT be used against the players. Save or suck is fine - entangle will be used, as will fireball, as will burning hands and what not. But Phantasmal Killer, Disintegrate, Finger of Death... Nope. Not using them. Likewise, Sleep is more likely to be thrown at them than Color Spray; Color Spray means multiple rounds of "you can't do crap," whereas if you take damage while under Sleep you CAN wake up and keep fighting.
- 3. Alignment is nixed. There is no alignment system. Protection From Evil-like effects work against all magic and outsiders and undead, and the Paladin's Smite operates on goblinoids, orcs, giants, undead, outsiders, and high level magic users. Also, the Paladin's Detect Evil is replaced with Detect Magic.
- 4. Players will be limited to the following races: Human, Dwarf, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, and Halfling. Any alternate racial trait that grants SLAs is banned. I'm considering allowing Tieflings, but only under the condition that they have the Pass For Human alternate racial trait, and with no variant heritages.
- 5. Also, there is no difference between Arcane and Divine spellcasting. Both are derived either from intense study or from some inherent talent for magic - usually both. Some believe that the Gods grant magic, but the Gods are not like Pathfinder deities. Some claim the Gods speak to them directly, but there's no more proof of this than there is that Moses got the Ten Commandments from God directly in the real world. In the end, this comes down to a matter of faith.
- 6. Oh, right. No guns. Probably no Bolt Ace either.
- 7. Magic items WOULD be available, but you can't just buy them at a shop. They're quest rewards, rarities, often taken from the corpses of powerful foes, and if you DO buy them it's at a steep cost. However, I think I'd let +1 weapons and armor be available fairly commonly as just the epitome of what a masterwork item can be before magic comes into play.
I'm considering reworking the Bard to better fit this setting so the players can use it. A full BAB, no-magic Bard that nevertheless has bardic music might be worth considering - but how would you balance that? Or a Bard with 4th level spellcasting but medium BAB? Again, how would you balance that with the other available character classes?
I'm also trying to decide if the Unchained Rogue might need some love or if its 8 skill points + DEX-to-damage would make it worth having around.
Would this fit best as an E6/P6 type of setting?
What are your general thoughts on balancing something like this?
No-no-no, you don't understand: I'm ENFORCING there NOT being spellcasters higher than 4th level for the party. As in, the party is not ALLOWED to have spellcasting better than that of a paladin, ranger, or bloodrager.
That's the point.
I'm also considering making the Heal skill much better to allow them to survive, and letting Survival and Knowledge: Nature produce healing items somehow. And Craft: Alchemy, only without magic.
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So wait... you're enforcing a restriction on Party spell casting to the weakest hybrid casters there are. Then you're sending full caster opponents against them?
And you want help to make it balanced? I don't know if you CAN balance that... Not without throwing high CL wands at them for loot every time they turn around.
I know. That's why I'm here.
The idea is to make a gritty setting wherein player death WILL happen at some point, wherein players are stacked against really nasty odds, BUT to make it, to some degree, fair.
To quote something I wrote, for instance...
Save or Die will NOT be used against the players. Save or suck is fine - entangle will be used, as will fireball, as will burning hands and what not. But Phantasmal Killer, Disintegrate, Finger of Death... Nope. Not using them.
The idea is to make sure the players feel like they're fighting against really awful odds and let them use every dirty trick in a warrior's book to overcome them. Killing the enemy at night while they camp - acceptable. Focus firing the mage with arrows before drawing swords and going for the mooks - acceptable. Dragging a small number of hirelings and war dogs into the mess - honestly, that's also probably acceptable, and I just need to decide where I'll draw the line as far as hirelings and pets go, or if I'll give the players extra characters or something.
This is going to be a setting where the player characters are going to be considered fools for doing what they do at first, but if they make it to higher levels (6+, for instance), they'll be viewed with a lot of awe and respect. A lot.
Also, full casters will not be in every fight. Indeed, most fights will NOT involve them. I want it to be such that the first time Entangle is cast, the players s%%# their pants and say "This is going to be tough."
This also is meant to make certain kinds of monsters just TERRIFYING. Werewolves howling? Better be glad you brought that silver dagger. Ogre charging at you? Yeah, time to spread out and make it a pincushion.
Shadows...? Crap.
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Hmm, ok. Two strong tactics against casters are to act first and hit hard or to have perfect condition removal, the first of those is much easier and effective.
So the strongest builds in that setting will be high initiative, high round one damage characters, or high save characters with supernatural resistances to common magic attacks. Attempting to sneak up and surprise round will be a strong tactic.
Step one is are your players game for this type of game? You are creating a world where the game is intentionally unbalanced so that there are a few capital letter Good Choices. Now that that is out of the way, you will need to pull your punches in boring ways, or get creative when it comes to giving the group tools.
So here are the big things to consider;
Lvl 1-2: Swarms and healing?
Lvl 3-4: Incorporeal Enemies, invisible enemies?
Lvl 5-6: Flying, Darkness, Ability drain?
Lvl 7-8: Low Saves?
This list is just a heads up for you so you can start planning what tools are available to the players or what spells you want to nix. Also for this setting, consider the automatic gear progression from unchained, it might hit a lot of birds with one stone.
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So wait... you're enforcing a restriction on Party spell casting to the weakest hybrid casters there are. Then you're sending full caster opponents against them?
And you want help to make it balanced? I don't know if you CAN balance that... Not without throwing high CL wands at them for loot every time they turn around.
You balance it the same way Robert Howard pitted Conan against dark sorcerers... You don't optmise your high level spellcasters the way the munchkins on this board would. You put limits on the magic they can acquire and wield.
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1. Healing: how does the party manage to recuperate HP between combats when Clerics, Oracles, etc. are not readily available? Will you have an accelerated HP recovery during rests, for example? Or, will psuedo-magical and/or alchemical healing items be available at rates no more expensive than the ubiquitous wand of CLW? The same consideration needs to be made towards status removal.
There will be alchemical healing items around for sure, and I want players to have access to skills that allow them to make this sort of stuff without casting magic. I don't want these abilities to be SUPER powerful, though.
I imagine the players also fight less in a day than standard parties. A lot of mercenary work involves TRAVEL. Lots and lots of travel. So, most times they'll fight a battle, and then fight another one a few days later (or a WEEK later). On days filled with combat they might fight 2-4 battles, most likely 2-3.
I will have the very rare dungeon crawl available to them, but I'll give hints that it's going to be dangerous delving into those places.
I have been considering accelerating HP recovery during rests, but I'm not sure how good it should be.
2. Bonus progression: The game's mathematics assumes that characters will have a certain range of bonuses for to hit, damage, saves, skills, etc. as they progress from level to level. The usual way to make sure a character has these bonuses is through gaining magical items that enhance the bonuses. If casters are rare, are these magical items also rare? If so, how do the characters make sure they are at the level of bonus they should be at in order to not be at a disadvantage? Have you considered the Automatic Bonus Progression alternate rule? Or, will "technological" items exist that provide the same bonuses (sort of like that crazy repeating crossbow from the Van Helsing movie)?
So, high tech stuff generally won't be available, generally speaking. Think of this as a classic medieval setting without magic, and then suddenly throw in the enemies WITH magic into the mix. Like, if you took medieval Germany and Italy with their warring city-states and then tossed monsters and magic into the mix, this is what you get.
I might allow some weird Da Vinci esque inventions to pop up eventually, but these will be rare and far, FAR from the norm.
With that said, automatic bonuses are a good idea. I don't know if it's the best solution, though. A part of me really wants to hammer home the idea that magic isn't the norm, and automatic bonuses seem to detract from that.
With that said, yes, magic items will be rarer, but I'm also going to try to make the TRULY magical stuff feel fantastic. For instance, if you go to an old tomb where a great hero is buried and find his magical sword, it might be a +2 greatsword that also makes automatic sunder attempts your enemies' armor whenever you strike them. You might find a helmet that gives you 120' darkvision and gives you the 'scent' ability. Or you might find a magical amulet that grants you +2 natural AC, but also lets you Immediate Action cast Stoneskin on yourself as a caster equal to your level 1/day.
3. Magical defenses: In a typical game of Pathfinder, the best defenses against an enemy high level caster is your own high level caster. Lacking this option, what can you do to balance the playing field? Again, maybe rare, ancient magical items that provide some of the spell casting abilities of higher level casters on a limited daily basis (like Fly once per day, or Dimension Door twice per day, or Dispel Magic once per day, etc.). You're writing the adventures, so you can tailor the objects the party finds towards obstacles that they will later encounter. (And as the adventure progresses, tailor encounters to give the characters the opportunity to use things they had previously found.)
This is just very good advice in general. Thank you very much.
So here are the big things to consider;
That list is pretty important. I'm going to talk about that really quickly I suppose.
So here are the big things to consider;
Lvl 1-2: Swarms and healing?
Swarms won't be used against them - except as creatures summoned by crazy druids that do crazy stuff in the woods. That much I know. Eventually, at higher levels, I'll start using them a little more when the party deals with weird nature-themed enemies.
As for healing, that's one of the biggest issues I'm chewing on. I'm thinking of making various skills better in relation to healing, but they shouldn't be so good that a Paladin's Lay on Hands or Cure Light Wounds spells are invalidated. I'm tempted to assume everyone gets a free skill unlock at level 5, and that you can use Treat Deadly Wounds on yourself.
I'm also contemplating letting Knowledge: Nature and Survival turn up ingredients that can produce healing effects (slow poison, allow a reroll against a failed save, automatic stabilize, etc), but to also allow Craft: Alchemy to use these ingredients to create more potent stuff. I'm open to ideas.
Lvl 3-4: Incorporeal Enemies, invisible enemies?
I'll try to make sure the group has a magic weapon or two by this point. I'm thinking that there may be a way of temporarily gaining Blind Fight through alchemical items, perhaps. Silver weapons will be fully effective against incorporeal enemies, and I know I'm gonna allow +1 weapons to exist as "they aren't ACTUALLY magical but they function as if they are," basically as super well crafted items.
But yes, I imagine Incorporeal/Invisible foes will be AWFUL to fight.
Lvl 5-6: Flying, Darkness, Ability drain?
As far as flying enemies go, I've been considering some sort of alchemical tar component that's used to coat arrows and stuff that can help bring down fliers so the melee combatants can fight them. Elsewise, they'll have to depend on ranged weapons and what spells they have at that point.
Ability drain is going to suck. It NEEDS to be able to be dealt with via the Heal Skill - another reason to allow free Skill Unlocks and buff the Heal skill.
Lvl 7-8: Low Saves?
Yeah, this one's gonna be a problem. Certain classes will have an advantage here (paladins, barbarians, monks). I can always assume the enemy casters don't have HUGE spellcasting scores, as an enemy wizard with 14 intelligence is much less threatening than an enemy wizard with 20 intelligence, but both can cast 4th level spells.
You balance it the same way Robert Howard pitted Conan against dark sorcerers... You don't optmise your high level spellcasters the way the munchkins on this board would. You put limits on the magic they can acquire and wield.So wait... you're enforcing a restriction on Party spell casting to the weakest hybrid casters there are. Then you're sending full caster opponents against them?
And you want help to make it balanced? I don't know if you CAN balance that... Not without throwing high CL wands at them for loot every time they turn around.
Exactly. That's how I'm going to do this: the enemy spellcasters aren't min-maxed. Some will be powerful, but they won't be using God Wizard tactics like level 20 caster PCs are wont to do.
On automatic gear progression: that pretty much just gives you flat bonuses as you level, right? Like +1 to Natural armor / deflection / etc. at a certain level, then +2 at another? That actually might very well be exactly what I need.
Then I can focus on making magical items flavorful, like the magic sword and helmet and amulet I mentioned above.
Triple posting, I know, but another arbitrary thought I forgot to mention:
I've been considering giving the Human's free bonus feat to ALL Player Characters in this setting - but what should Humans get in return? I don't want them to have two bonus feats of their choice.
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Exactly. That's how I'm going to do this: the enemy spellcasters aren't min-maxed. Some will be powerful, but they won't be using God Wizard tactics like level 20 caster PCs are wont to do.You balance it the same way Robert Howard pitted Conan against dark sorcerers... You don't optmise your high level spellcasters the way the munchkins on this board would. You put limits on the magic they can acquire and wield.So wait... you're enforcing a restriction on Party spell casting to the weakest hybrid casters there are. Then you're sending full caster opponents against them?
And you want help to make it balanced? I don't know if you CAN balance that... Not without throwing high CL wands at them for loot every time they turn around.
In that vein, I'd say have each of your magic big bads themed around certain kinds of spells. Don't have a necromancer throwing fireballs, for example.
Also, maybe consider if Occult Rituals are a thing that the PCs will have access to.
Exactly. That's how I'm going to do this: the enemy spellcasters aren't min-maxed. Some will be powerful, but they won't be using God Wizard tactics like level 20 caster PCs are wont to do.You balance it the same way Robert Howard pitted Conan against dark sorcerers... You don't optmise your high level spellcasters the way the munchkins on this board would. You put limits on the magic they can acquire and wield.So wait... you're enforcing a restriction on Party spell casting to the weakest hybrid casters there are. Then you're sending full caster opponents against them?
And you want help to make it balanced? I don't know if you CAN balance that... Not without throwing high CL wands at them for loot every time they turn around.
In that vein, I'd say have each of your magic big bads themed around certain kinds of spells. Don't have a necromancer throwing fireballs, for example.
Also, maybe consider if Occult Rituals are a thing that the PCs will have access to.
You mean from this page?
I... didn't know that was a thing. I'm going to look into that. It sounds awesome, thank you.
EDIT: And yeah, the big bads will definitely be themed. At least, that's my intention.
Sounds like you haven't run this yet... I suspect this will fall apart before level 9 spells become an issue but my suggestion is to look over the mythic rules.
You'll likely need to curate it slightly, but if you provide even limited access to them to the players they should be fine against non optimized casters under your control.
I also recommend the ABP, you may want to do +2 or even go higher in later levels, ie by level 8 give them +3 or +4.
You'll also want to introduce artifacts and artifact weapons in particular -- or mythic legendary weapons.
Another optional sub system to look over is stamina, gives everyone extra stuff to do with their feats. Also skill unlocks from unchained rogue, players will depend on skills more so let skills do cooler stuff, and consider incorporating magic items that give significant skill bonuses.
As far as 9th level spells go: I'm going to put a cap on character level, that much I know. I haven't decided where it will be - 6th level? 9th level? 12th level? Somewhere between 6-12, such that the most powerful spells never come into play.
Thoughts on where I should place the level cap would be appreciated. I'm also considering starting the PCs at level 2 with max HP for their first two levels and 1/2 for the rest.
EDIT: I should've titled this with '9th-level spellcasting,' not 9th level spells.
Another optional sub system to look over is stamina, gives everyone extra stuff to do with their feats. Also skill unlocks from unchained rogue, players will depend on skills more so let skills do cooler stuff, and consider incorporating magic items that give significant skill bonuses.
I was considering free Combat Stamina for everyone and 1 free skill unlock per person at level 5. Also, Background Skills.
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The game is built with certain assumptions. You are either going to have to rewrite a lot of the base rules or go easy on the party, or just not use certain things against them.
As an example ability drain and energy drain require higher level spells than the party will have access to, and if they run into other things that require higher level spells when they are nowhere near a town they will be in trouble.
The easiest way to make this work is to use the rules from the unchained book which allows for the players to get the power of better stat improvements built into the character progression, and make sure they dont run into anything they can not fix within a reasonable time.
In terms of setting lore: powerful magic comes from corrupt older powers (The Old Ways). Most of humanity is torn between that and following The One True God. Right?
... why would the One True God allow his followers to go up against super-powered necromancers with no good way to fight back?
... why would people follow a god who cannot offer them a decent chance at surviving a dangerous world? What are they getting out of it? Promises of eternal life in the hereafter?
Hm. Okay, let me go ahead and discuss that in more depth.
So, as I noted in the opening post, faith is meant to be... well, based around actual FAITH. Nobody gets their magical powers through prayer. Magic comes from study or from abilities from within that are unlocked, but often it's a mixture of both. Someone with an incredibly keen mind (16-17 INT) might have no magical talent at all despite that, and so could not become a Wizard, for instance. And Druids develop their powers not through worship but through a bit of talent and a study of the natural world - and, in many cases, making a pact or sacrifices to the entities they believe rule the natural domain.
Now, there are two primary faiths, as discussed: the Old Faith and that of the One True God. But the Old Faith does not necessitate the dark deeds performed by druids. The Old Faith, in fact, views the entities they follow as evil. Rangers are often followers of the Old Faith, for instance; they worship a collection of more benign spirits. Of course, there are evil Rangers as well who have cast off the laws of the Old Faith and serve darker powers alongside Druids and their ilk.
But again, there's no real solid PROOF that it's the deities worshiped by the Rangers and Druids that give them their strength. There's no divine connection, and there's no difference between Arcane and Divine magic. Some people may claim to be prophets of their gods, to receive visions, etc., but the facts remain that magic is achieved through inherent power and through study.
Ergo, to answer the question of "Why would the One True God allow his followers to go up against super-powered necromancers with no good way to fight back?" you should ask the same in a real world Christian context. Why does God allow plague and war to happen? Why does God allow good people to die? Why do bad things happen?
And so, in this world, we have the same crisis of faith that is experienced in the real world, because there is no proof that God is real, or that the Old Gods are real. Characters must simply accept these things to be true.
The promise of reward in the afterlife and the like is very much an incentive though, yes. Also, remember that magic often makes people go CRAZY or EVIL. We may not be using alignment, but paladins can smite powerful magic users for a reason.
As currently described, it sounds like a setup for death. Is martyrdom the goal? I can see telling stories about virtuous heroes who go up against horrifically powerful enemies and die horribly but with their honor intact. Such things were certainly stock-in-trade for the early Christians. Better be sure your players are on board for that kind of experience, though -- knowing it's not a matter of IF your character will die, but WHEN and HOW.
Yeah, this isn't going to be sprung as a surprise on my players whenever I host this game. It'll be an online game, either PbP or via Roll20, and this will be... Yeah, a game where you should expect your character to die eventually.
But at the same time, I want it to be a game where the players have a mixed bag of Gritty Hero Stuff and Virtuous Hero Stuff available to them. They can be the gritty hero that does whatever is necessary to survive - and they're mercenaries, so this fits. And they can be virtuous heroes who, despite the fact that it's not profitable, despite the dangers involved, will rush in to help a poor village being ransacked by orcs because it's the right damned thing to do.
I've been thinking about this for a long time if you can't tell.
EDIT: Allowing Adept-style spellcasting on a Bard instead of standard Bard spellcasting might work. Thoughts?
EDIT 2: Also, studying Spheres of Magic and learning how it works may be a good idea - but that also means having my players learn a whole new magic system as well. I'm not sure how I feel about that. And I know NOTHING about Spheres of Magic power balance.
Deity intervention
High level martial PCs with decent equipment should perform well against NPC casters. One or more ranged characters can change the dynamic of combat drastically. At higher levels, there are some situations where they will need an ally who spams dispel magic to remove the caster's defensive buffs (I assume the bad guys have different teams, and the enemy of my enemy...). Alternatively, you could also limit the amount of buffs that a caster can have in effect at the same time.
The gm advice from Iron Heroes would apply to what you are doing here.
I don't really have advice for this but good luck to you.
Let us know how it works out, because I'm of the opinion that unless you really hold back the 9th level spell casters (playing them as stupid) once they hit around level 10 the party just shouldn't have much of a chance.
Are you giving the characters faith based magic resistance?
It seems like you are trying to reenact the bible and such.
Are you giving the characters faith based magic resistance?
It seems like you are trying to reenact the bible and such.
Not trying to reenact the Bible, but the simple truth is that I've always wanted to run a game that's A) low magic players vs. high magic evil and B) doesn't give a concrete answer to if the gods are real.
Basically, the problem I've always had with tabletop fantasy settings is they typically assume "Yes, without a doubt the gods are real, and everyone knows that." In the real world that may be an assumption that people make, but there are real challenges to everyone's belief systems. Basically, I find fantasy tabletop religion to feel unrealistic and arbitrary, and I'd REALLY love for there to be a level of ambiguity in whether the gods are real or not. And as the DM of this potential setting, I'm not sure what the answer to that is going to be - or IF I'm going to provide an answer at all.
But no, I don't imagine there being faith-based magic resistance. Items that grant magic resistance, yes. The closest to faith-based magic resistance will be increased Will saves through the selection of traits and feats (like Indomitable Faith for +1 Will), or playing a paladin, or actions through roleplay potentially leading to interesting discoveries/happenings that can be construed as "God is with us! / The Gods smile on us!" or "God has abandoned us! / We have lost the Gods' favor!"
You mentioned wanting to rework Bard. There are a few ways to do this. The simplest is to put it on a curated list of allowable Variant Multiclass options. (In general, the 6/9 caster VMCs should be just fine- it's only the full caster VMCs that really grant major magical stuff like hexes.) Brawler also has an archetype that grants bardic performance.
Don't forget Vigilante for your list of non-casters. (Obviously, casting archetypes aren't included, same as for Rogue.) Oh, and Cavalier, but I don't know that people actually play that. There are spell-less archetypes for Investigator and Alchemist that would be good to include. You're limiting classes a bunch, so bringing back as much variety as possible is a good idea.
I don't think the Vigilante fits the setting, nor do the Alchemist or Investigator. That's why I didn't list them.
This setting is a medieval fantasy setting at its core. The Alchemist is chock full of Victorian-era tropes, as is the Investigator, and thus they feel out of character for the setting (the Investigator less so than the Alchemist). The Vigilante is meant to simulate superheroics and the like, but we're dealing with a band of mercenaries, not superheroes. We're also looking at a setting where the player spends more time in the wilderness and on the road than in the city, so while I want my players to be able to negotiate past problems instead of fighting everyone (since fighting everyone is a recipe for disaster), I just don't think the Vigilante is good fit.
As for VMCs... I dunno. Besides not wanting to use VMC, I also just want someone who wants to be able to play the plucky bard to be able to do just that mechanically. I also like the idea of allowing the Adept NPC class to be in play, so I'm considering allowing the Bard BUT switching its spellcasting progression to that of the Adept (such that it casts bard spells but progresses more slowly than usual).
Finally, I think I'm going to make the level cap for this campaign level 9. That doesn't mean play stops at level 9 - it just means the players would stop getting level ups at that point. I may allow them to get extra skill points and feats after that, though.
I think a bard with 4-level spellcasting, full BAB, and its current list of features would be pretty close to balanced with paladins and bloodragers.
You may be onto something here.
Part of me REALLY wants to keep the bard around in its standard form, but at the same time I'm worried it would immediately start outshining everyone else with its magic. I'd be tempted to trim its spell list.
But I also like the idea of a full BAB warrior bard with some bard spells operating the same way, but developing at the speed a paladin's do.
And of course, a medium BAB bard whose spells develop at the Adept's rate might be a nice in-between? And in a 9th level capped campaign, a pure Bard of this sort would have 3rd level spells vs. everyone else's 2nd level spells (or their lack of spells). Then again... so would the regular bard.
1: Dwarves. Hardy, glory of old, steel soul (1 trait and 1 feat) = +5 all saves vs spells and spell like abilities. A dwarven warpriest, with good wisdom, will shrug off most magic.
2: Half-Orcs: Sacred Tattoos and Fates Favored (1 trait) = +2 all saves.
3: Half-Elves: Dual Minded= +2will saves
Save vs suck will obliterate martials. Good race choices will help.
Some sample builds...
Dwarf as above: Warpriest. Str16 Dex12 Con16 Wis16. At lvl1 that is +10 will saves.
Half-Orc as above. Witch Killer Slayer. Str18 Dex14 Con14. At lvl2 take superstition (with no raging downsides). Combined with studied target that is Will +5 and it increases at +2 every 4 levels or so. Also get abilities which specifically hurt spell casters when you hit them. A great spellcaster killing class.
Half Elf as above. Cha14 Paladin. At lvl2 will is at +7.
So combine magic resistant races with magic resistant classes.
Warpriest isn't available, but yeah, those sound like good ideas. And again, there won't be enemy spellcasters in every fight - but when they appear, having solid saving throws and trying to catch them off-guard should be good defenses. (Striking first is always a good tactic.)
As it is, I'm looking at making non-caster and 4th-level spellcasting classes available to players. Besides that, either turning the Bard into a full BAB class or keeping it in its core form seems like a good idea as well, since the bard has access to a wide variety of skills and spells and can come from a variety of backgrounds. (Archivists could easily represent learned scholars or priests; Arrowsong Minstrels make good magic-dabbling soldiers.)
I'm kinda surprised there is only one vote for Spheres of Power on here lol. It would be an excellent way to create very thematic casters, and it's Traditions could perfectly replicate the type of world you want.
Maybe - I just have never, ever used it before. Learning a new system of magic from a 200+ page PDF... I'm just not sure if that's worth it.
It's something I've always wanted to try, but I don't want my first try to be with me GMing it, if that makes sense. I'd rather learn the ropes by playing with Spheres of Magic before actually using it.
Maybe - I just have never, ever used it before. Learning a new system of magic from a 200+ page PDF... I'm just not sure if that's worth it.
It's something I've always wanted to try, but I don't want my first try to be with me GMing it, if that makes sense. I'd rather learn the ropes by playing with Spheres of Magic before actually using it.
Perfectly understandable really, I just know that since I read through it I almost exclusively use it as my go to magic system for games I DM.
The good news is it's leaps and bounds easier to learn, manage, and control than then vancian system. The PDF is large, but it's very easy to understand and the entire gist of the magic system is just in the first few pages, it also has conversions for all the core classes to spheres (the expanded options PDF has the others). There is a free wiki with all the information on it as well like the PFSRD. If not this game, I would very much suggest giving it a read, it's very fun for lower magic settings or ones similar to your own.
Alright then, since that is not on the table I don't know too much more I can contribute to things after what others have said, but I can endorse the scaling bonuses for level concept for sure, it's worked out pretty well in my games when I tried it. Pardon if I missed it, but are you allowing for any third party material at all?
Lots of hero points. Like, lots of them.
It's not that it's off the table entirely, actually. After all, I'm doing long-term planning here - I'm not expecting to actually run this game for a couple months at least. I just need an opportunity to actually play using Spheres of Magic first, I feel, so I can know if it's something I want to use.
I'm going to be going to bed shortly. I'll look into purchasing and studying Spheres of Magic and see how I feel about it.
Do you have any advice for running Spheres of Magic in a setting like this if I use it? My gut instinct is to limit players to 1/2 Caster Level classes and keep 3/4 and full casters out of their hands.
Pardon if I missed it, but are you allowing for any third party material at all?
My initial thought is "Only in doses, and on a case by case basis, but generally no." I'd prefer to stick to Paizo-specific material unless there's something that would make this concept shine.
Run them gestalt.
It's not that it's off the table entirely, actually. After all, I'm doing long-term planning here - I'm not expecting to actually run this game for a couple months at least. I just need an opportunity to actually play using Spheres of Magic first, I feel, so I can know if it's something I want to use.
I'm going to be going to bed shortly. I'll look into purchasing and studying Spheres of Magic and see how I feel about it.
Do you have any advice for running Spheres of Magic in a setting like this if I use it? My gut instinct is to limit players to 1/2 Caster Level classes and keep 3/4 and full casters out of their hands.
Pardon if I missed it, but are you allowing for any third party material at all?My initial thought is "Only in doses, and on a case by case basis, but generally no." I'd prefer to stick to Paizo-specific material unless there's something that would make this concept shine.
Well I can say that your gut instinct won't really be out of place in some cases, but it shouldn't be to bad. The gist of spheres is that it removes Tier 1 power for almost every instance. Casting is VERY thematic, with a lot more 'at-will' and weaker (yet much more creatively active and customization) magic effects, that are tempered in power by a point based resource that is the same for all casters. The way caster level works is exactly like BAB. A high caster gains 1 caster level per level, a medium gains a caster level like a rogue does BAB, and a low caster gains caster level at the same level as a wizard would normally gain BAB. This means that even two people using the same spheres will not always be as powerful without even including the "talents" or how you add effects to the magic itself, these are also gained in MUCH greater number for higher casters than lower ones, meaning if you want a lord of blasting, they will be a LORD of blasting, but not have the same things other casters would as well (same for a necromancer and the like). You can use traditions to add drawbacks to the players casting but not to the enemies for example, making it harder for the players to summon strong magic without a steep price if they do attempt to try the methods employed by an enemy (this could be expanded on to possibly include a sanity/corruption mechanic for them with little effort).
The spheres are very cut and dry on what any caster with access to them can do, making it MUCH easier to manage encounters with them, while at the same time it allows still for just as much 'flavor = power' as one likes. I ran the game using spheres only for my first test of the game and found that in most cases it greatly encouraged my players to pursue builds that fit their own personal themes rather than "I need haste at "blank" level". It also made choices easier for them, because while the power was lower they no longer felt the pressure of "gotta out the spells I want from this huge list", but instead "I can make the character I want to make".
For enemies this makes specialized foes still very intimidating, or generalized enemies into threats with unpredictably versatile skill sets. A druid could specialize in the Nature sphere and focus solely on plants for example, making their forest home into a death trap. They could also be versed in the Weather sphere and become a terror across the battlefield as they cause terrible lightning storms. All of this is made simple to define, build, and adjust to power scale with the party in question from session to session because you no longer have exhaustive spell lists to consider on balancing among one another. In the games I ran it was a huge hit, because it makes magic much more about the 'feel' and 'character' than it did just "the most utterly powerful tool to use for any problem".
Warpriest isn't available, but yeah, those sound like good ideas. And again, there won't be enemy spellcasters in every fight - but when they appear, having solid saving throws and trying to catch them off-guard should be good defenses. (Striking first is always a good tactic.)
As it is, I'm looking at making non-caster and 4th-level spellcasting classes available to players. Besides that, either turning the Bard into a full BAB class or keeping it in its core form seems like a good idea as well, since the bard has access to a wide variety of skills and spells and can come from a variety of backgrounds. (Archivists could easily represent learned scholars or priests; Arrowsong Minstrels make good magic-dabbling soldiers.)
Well...Spellbreaker inquisitor then: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/inquisit or-archetypes-paizo/spellbreaker/
Solid class. Good against anything, especially when they get bane.
Couple that with a Witch Killer Slayer. With good saving throw classes, they can rock wizards and still kick ass against other martials.
For extra bit of team work here, add in an enlightened paladin to the mix to ensure that nobody in the party will have to re-roll saving throws.
No need to invent new classes when there are really good options out there already.
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To be frank, the best way to balance a low or no magic party vs enemies with superior classes is to play the superior classed NPCs like idiots.
Most reasonable precautions high level full casters can take are only viably negate by other caster techniques or specific class abilities (EX the Symbol spells are only detectable by Trapfinding, and nothing else).
Seriously, let them gestalt. Also allow metamorph alchemist.
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To be frank, the best way to balance a low or no magic party vs enemies with superior classes is to play the superior classed NPCs like idiots.
Most reasonable precautions high level full casters can take are only viably negate by other caster techniques or specific class abilities (EX the Symbol spells are only detectable by Trapfinding, and nothing else).
Or assume that it isn't as easy to learn and cast whatever spells are most effective as in the default PF rule set.
Instead of learning a Symbol spell because they've reached a high enough level, the wizard has to actually find a tome of forbidden secrets that details that particular magic.
Instead of casting whatever they like off their spell list, druids cast whatever happens to be in alignment with the phase of the moon and the position of the stars today.
Sorcerers get whatever they can wrangle from the weird forces that have tainted their very flesh.
Also, if OP is limiting advancement to 9th level, that eliminates problematic spells above 5th level - though there are still some very challenging lower level spells.
I think a bard with 4-level spellcasting, full BAB, and its current list of features would be pretty close to balanced with paladins and bloodragers.You may be onto something here.
Part of me REALLY wants to keep the bard around in its standard form, but at the same time I'm worried it would immediately start outshining everyone else with its magic. I'd be tempted to trim its spell list.
But I also like the idea of a full BAB warrior bard with some bard spells operating the same way, but developing at the speed a paladin's do.
And of course, a medium BAB bard whose spells develop at the Adept's rate might be a nice in-between? And in a 9th level capped campaign, a pure Bard of this sort would have 3rd level spells vs. everyone else's 2nd level spells (or their lack of spells). Then again... so would the regular bard.
I think I'd rather tailor the spell list than reduce the number of spells. That way you could give the bard access to things that the party is expected to have access to (Lesser Restoration) while controlling things that might trivialize encounters or just feel too flashy (Hold Person, Glitterdust). It also feels more like an extension of the limited choices idea than just taking stuff from bards.
You'd also want to deal thematically with the fact that the bard would be handling unusual amounts of magic in a setting where magic is scary. You might have others treat them with fearful respect if they know what the bard does. You might require the bard keep one or more "taboos" in order to keep themselves "safe" from the forces they're dealing with. (The effect of violating a taboo could be minor or more serious depending on how much you want to push 'hard mode.')
If you do allow bard as a 6-level caster I might suggest also allowing hunter and/or even homebrewing a herbalist class (take investigator and replace whatever you find too "Victorian" with extra healing or poisoning abilities?)
I think I'd rather tailor the spell list than reduce the number of spells. That way you could give the bard access to things that the party is expected to have access to (Lesser Restoration) while controlling things that might trivialize encounters or just feel too flashy (Hold Person, Glitterdust). It also feels more like an extension of the limited choices idea than just taking stuff from bards.
You'd also want to deal thematically with the fact that the bard would be handling unusual amounts of magic in a setting where magic is scary. You might have others treat them with fearful respect if they know what the bard does. You might require the bard keep one or more "taboos" in order to keep themselves "safe" from the forces they're dealing with. (The effect of violating a taboo could be minor or more serious depending on how much you want to push 'hard mode.')
If you do allow bard as a 6-level caster I might suggest also allowing hunter and/or even homebrewing a herbalist class (take investigator and replace whatever you find too "Victorian" with extra healing or poisoning abilities?)
I think these are some good calls. I'll tinker with this and post again when I have something concrete to work with. I may end up making a more organized thread when I have a list of stuff I'll be using, with more detailed explanations of why/how things are being done in the first post.
The Herbalist is an idea I'm super fond of anyway, so I'll see what I can do. Maybe I can make that hybrid Druid/Investigator I've been wanting to see... Elsewise, yeah, a Hunter may be a good call.
And the idea on taboos is very interesting. Gives me ideas.
*Lots of stuff concerning Spheres of Power*
Hey, thanks. I'll be doing a bit more research into this - it looks fun and interesting, for sure. I'm still going to have to see if I can't get use of Spheres of Power in another game before I try using this in a game I DM.
Or assume that it isn't as easy to learn and cast whatever spells are most effective as in the default PF rule set.
Instead of learning a Symbol spell because they've reached a high enough level, the wizard has to actually find a tome of forbidden secrets that details that particular magic.
Instead of casting whatever they like off their spell list, druids cast whatever happens to be in alignment with the phase of the moon and the position of the stars today.
Sorcerers get whatever they can wrangle from the weird forces that have tainted their very flesh.
Also, if OP is limiting advancement to 9th level, that eliminates problematic spells above 5th level - though there are still some very challenging lower level spells.
Yeah, this is where I'm going with this.
The players shouldn't encounter higher than 5th level spells for the most part, though they can still be damning. A truly POWERFUL enemy spellcaster, an end-game level boss, might have 6th level spells and some powerful summons along with a more complete spell list. But generally speaking, these enemies simply don't have access to all the spells that highly optimized casters in regular games do because they have to hunt down all this forbidden knowledge.
Now, this does NOT these enemies will be played stupidly. I will try to throw a variety of tactics at the PCs and make them work for their victories. However, the enemies don't have the same resources available to them that PC spellcasters do in other campaigns.
Anyway, I've got a lot to think about now. Thanks, folks.
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This sounds like a perfect setup for an E6 game, which is specifically intended to create a "gritty," more realistic feel. Above 6th level, the PF game's genre shifts from struggling adventurers to comic book superheroes, simply based on what the characters can do. That applies even to martials, who by that time can wrestle dinosaurs, and go skydiving without parachutes and live every time.
People have a hard time with E6 because of expectations: "But... we want to play the same game at levels 7-20!" But that's not how PF is set up. If you go in with the expectation that level advancement will be slow, and that the campaign will stay somewhat grounded in realism, then it's ideal for what you're envisioning.
If you are going to downplay the caster NPCs I don't think you require to make special changes, you can play the game straight forward.
Also for ideas of special items to mitigate the lack of casters you can look at E6, I remember that it has a list of special abilities to gain after 6th level for the same purpose so you only need to translate it to items.
EDIT: Ninja'ed by Kirth
This sounds hateful to me.
Anyway on the healing thing, use the 5e short rest mechanic.
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This sounds like a perfect setup for an E6 game, which is specifically intended to create a "gritty," more realistic feel. Above 6th level, the PF game's genre shifts from struggling adventurers to comic book superheroes, simply based on what the characters can do. That applies even to martials, who by that time can wrestle dinosaurs, and go skydiving without parachutes and live every time.
People have a hard time with E6 because of expectations: "But... we want to play the same game at levels 7-20!" But that's not how PF is set up. If you go in with the expectation that level advancement will be slow, and that the campaign will stay somewhat grounded in realism, then it's ideal for what you're envisioning.
Yeah, I mentioned E6 at one point because of this. Either E6 or E9 is probably what I'll roll with. E9 allows enemy spellcasters to bring to bear much more vicious spells, however (5th/6th level spells depending on their CR compared to the party).
E9 may also be the sweet spot for rewarding characters who stay "pure" in a class, such as rewarding a Paladin or Bard with at least 7 levels in their class to get 2nd and 3rd level spells respectively. It also allows the opportunity for characters to get 2 iterative attacks without being full BAB.
Either way, do believe me when I say that I've been looking at the P6 thread as I've posted here.