This sounds awesome. Challenges will probably arise in unexpected ways and people who are used to 9 level casters solving every problem will be thrown for a loop. I can tell by their responses that a number of people here would be against this kind of play, but I personally love the concept and I bet quite a few others would too. If your players are willing, it should make for a unique experience.
Willing players will make this fun. but players who enjoy playing caster probably shouldn't play in this setting.
The players are probably going to love AoOs
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Ok, with what you've detailed and what other's have brought up I think you're in a decent place to either know how to adjust or at least what you need to find a way to deal with before you present it to the party (Incorporeals/swarms..)
However there's one issue that I don't really see a good answer for, that's in combat healing. You seem to have good things in mind for healing up after battles, but if you're relying solely on that then that means you're not expecting any battles to deal enough damage that a character would need healing during combat. I think if my characters never needed healing during combat, I'd feel like they were never being properly challenged. By the same token, you can't rely on methods of healing that take a character out of combat while healing (such as the draw/drink full round of a potion) as it does you no good to have to spend a round to heal yourself, just for the opponents to get to spend their round dealing that damage right back to you again.
In-combat healing is a good point - and quite frankly, with this system I see that as a feature, not a bug. If the world is going to be brutal, then having healing generally happen out of combat makes sense to me. Punches as far as raw damage goes will NOT be thrown, so I expect to see characters get KO'd in a fight every now and then.
I do think there are sources of good in-combat healing, however. Paladins exist, and therefore so does Lay on Hands. Bards will exist in one form or another, so Cure Light Wounds is to be expected concerning downed allies. Channel Energy probably won't exist, however, and nor will higher end healing spells.
Also, there will be no such thing as Reincarnate / Raise Dead / Resurrect. Once someone is dead... That's it. Only Undeath is an option, and that's either a Lichdom thing, a Vampire thing, or a mindless undead minion thing.
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The Herbalist is an idea I'm super fond of anyway, so I'll see what I can do. Maybe I can make that hybrid Druid/Investigator I've been wanting to see... Elsewise, yeah, a Hunter may be a good call.
Setting up a framework, I'd suggest:
- Medium BAB/HD
- Good Fort and Will saves
- Either 4 skill points and Int-based or 6 and Wis-based (you don't want them to have significantly more skills than the bard).
- Infusions (as the discovery) with a limited spell list, mostly remedies, toxins, and subtle personal buffs like Bull's Strength or Barkskin.
Ideas for special features:
- Skill bonuses to Knowledge (nature), Craft (alchemy), Profession (herbalist), Heal, Survival.
- Poison resistance
- Poison Use
- Abilities to improve poisons (from alchemist)
- Tonic of Vigor. Similar to mutagen but provides +2 Str, +2 Con. Possible high-level improvement: DR.
- Tonic of Celerity. Similar to mutagen but provides +2 Dex, +10ft movement. Possible high-level improvement: Evasion
- Tonic of Acuity. Similar to mutagen but provides +2 Int, +2 Wis, low light vision, and scent. Possible high-level improvements: blindsense, see invisibility, or improved uncanny dodge.
- Noxious Missile: Like bombs but instead of fire could deal acid damage, sicken (stink bomb), deal ability damage (poison), or infect with a disease.
- Studied Combat or something like it if you want the character to be able to melee.
I'm leaning towards giving every Herbalist the skill bonuses and a choice between Noxious Missile or Studied Combat, and then filling in the gaps with talent-style poison/tonic abilities (and whatever else you feel like grabbing from the druid or investigator).
That should make them similar to the bard in terms of having good skills, a selection of subtle magic, and some offensive combat abilities.
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In-combat healing is a good point - and quite frankly, with this system I see that as a feature, not a bug. If the world is going to be brutal, then having healing generally happen out of combat makes sense to me. Punches as far as raw damage goes will NOT be thrown, so I expect to see characters get KO'd in a fight every now and then.
I do think there are sources of good in-combat healing, however. Paladins exist, and therefore so does Lay on Hands. Bards will exist in one form or another, so Cure Light Wounds is to be expected concerning downed allies. Channel Energy probably won't exist, however, and nor will higher end healing spells.
Also, there will be no such thing as Reincarnate / Raise Dead / Resurrect. Once someone is dead... That's it. Only Undeath is an option, and that's either a Lichdom thing, a Vampire thing, or a mindless undead minion thing.
With out a significant form of healing (Lay on Hands would work, but you now have a required class for literally any adventuring party). You will Quickly level into a range where KO's are possible, but Death's are just as (and probably more) likely. As Creatures hit harder the odds of being knocked straight to dead will increase.
I would probably implement something like a doubletap rule. A hit that knock's a player out, can not also kill them. A second hit, even for 1 damage however can. This allows an option for players knocked far into negative to remain alive, as long as the rest of the party can prevent them from taking any further damage.
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With out a significant form of healing (Lay on Hands would work, but you now have a required class for literally any adventuring party). You will Quickly level into a range where KO's are possible, but Death's are just as (and probably more) likely. As Creatures hit harder the odds of being knocked straight to dead will increase.
I would probably implement something like a doubletap rule. A hit that knock's a player out, can not also kill them. A second hit, even for 1 damage however can. This allows an option for players knocked far into negative to remain alive, as long as the rest of the party can prevent them from taking any further damage.
You could also extend the "unconscious and dying" window. The Alexandrian has some interesting house rules that might also be useful here. (You can skip the "Resurrection" option, though note that it's much more limited than the usual Raise Dead.)
I'm considering the following houserules concerning HP:
1. First, double CON = the negative HP you can reach before death. So, 15 CON = -30. However, you take 2 damage per round you bleed out, not 1, so this means you can take bigger hits before going down but bleed out at the same rate.
2. Faster out of combat healing. As mentioned before, this setting is only rarely going to throw parties at multiple combat encounters a day, unless the party makes odd decisions. If you fight a battle against some bandits you have a bounty for, travel three more days, and then get ambushed as you're crossing a river by two werecrocodiles, well... You've had three days to heal up through various means.
And... Honestly, Glorf's post is making me wonder if the Paladin's Lay on Hands actually WOULD be too good in this setting. I don't want people to feel like picking a paladin is necessary, nor do I want to say "Welp, NO PALADINS!" And I don't want to nerf them; their targets for Smite Evil are already limited given the "no alignment" rules (orcs/goblinoids/undead/outsiders/dragons/spellcasters)... But maybe it's best to just leave them as they are.
I'm working on the Herbalist, by the by. I'll eventually post it.
Normally SOP and gestalt scare and confuse me, but I have seen topics like this. So far, most people have tried to throw you some sort of life preserver, and only one seems angry. When someone attacks me for trying to help, I will hide the topic.
Let's face it, the bad guys having access to things the good guys do not, is already non core, and you don't want to swim after a ship that sailed.
When someone attacks me for trying to help, I will hide the topic.
I'm confused - have I come across as aggressive? I apologize if so. I'm certainly not trying to.
Normally SOP and gestalt scare and confuse me, but I have seen topics like this. So far, most people have tried to throw you some sort of life preserver...
Let's face it, the bad guys having access to things the good guys do not, is already non core, and you don't want to swim after a ship that sailed.
Again, slightly confused by exactly what you're saying in the last sentence, but I think I get your drift: this is an idea that is inherently deadly to the players and I need to be careful not to make it TOO difficult.
I think that's fair. It's going to be a rough setting for sure. I think it'll appeal to a certain kind of player, and I'll be recruiting people specifically for this style of campaign when I run it (and not simply springing it on unaware players).
To summarize my present ideas on the campaign:
- 1. Magic users will be rare and feared. Ergo, if the party encounters a wizard, he should feel terrifying.
- 2. But because magic is rare, getting a perfect understanding of magic is also rare. The magic-slinging enemies they face will not be entirely optimized, though they'll play as intelligently as they can given their resources.
- 3. To compensate for a general lack of healing, the number of negative hit points players have will be increased, and they will have increased out of combat healing. Battles will also GENERALLY be spaced out, and there should be opportunities for the players to use dirty tactics and the like to get necessary advantages.
- 4. The level cap will either be 6, 8 or 9. I'm favoring level 9. This limits how heavy hitting enemies will be later on, meaning that extra negative HP block should last the players longer, and it also limits the spells I can bring to bear against them.
- 5. As there is no alignment system, the players can mix and match the classes available to them as they please. Paladin/Barbarians are doable, for example. Also, this means the Paladin won't Fall.
- 6. The party will have the option of retreating in some cases. If they deem a fight too terrible to face, then it's sometimes better to ditch a given contract and find easier prey.
- 7. The available classes are: Barbarian, Bard (Int-based, learns spells the same way a Wizard does, 6th level casting), Bloodrager, Brawler, Cavalier, Fighter, Herbalist (Wis-based, 6th level casting, to be designed), Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Skald, Slayer, Swashbuckler. This means there are three 6th level spellcasters: Skald for CHA Spontaneous, Bard for INT prepared, and Herbalist for WIS prepared. I've decided that having 6th level casters available will make things a little easier for the party, so while I'll be vetting the Bard and Herbalist spell lists, I think this is a good start.
- 8. Magic items will be rare. I will give the players automatic bonus progression.
Some things I'm considering doing to shake things up, unpopular as these might be:
I might just nix paladins. They don't necessarily fit the grit of this setting, and as much as I ADORE paladins (they're my favorite class alongside bards), Glorf's point about them feeling NECESSARY in this game seems a bit too true, so removing them is possibly my simplest solution. There ARE three different 6th level casters around to do healing if necessary, anyway.
I'm also debating giving Toughness as a bonus feat to everyone, just to make things a little easier. These are all mercenaries, after all. They lead a hard life.
Finally, I'm still debating giving all the 6th level casters Adept-style progression (except getting 1 spell on levels when they'd get "0" spells). But I'm leaning toward a level 8 cap with regular progression for the Bard/Skald/Herbalist, just slightly trimmed spell lists.
Thoughts?
Will alchemy be a thing? Maybe that could fill the "need HP right now to not die" niche that would normally be filled by classes like the Cleric and Shaman.
EVERYONE GET SPELL SUNDER.
EVERYONE.
BARBARIAN STILL GET BEST SAVES, THOUGH, BECAUSE BARBARIAN.
Will alchemy be a thing? Maybe that could fill the "need HP right now to not die" niche that would normally be filled by classes like the Cleric and Shaman.
There will be limited alchemy. That'll be the Herbalist's forte.
Skill unlocks and combat stamina being available might help too.
Skill unlocks and combat stamina being available might help too.
Oh yeah! I forgot to list those.
Yeah, everyone's getting Combat Stamina, and everyone gets 1 skill unlock at level 5. The Unchained Rogue gets a free bonus feat in lieu of a Skill Unlock at level 5 to compensate.
I started out giving out single use healing items when i did something similar like id call them lemba leaves or what have you and it would be a one shot cure light wounds item.
For magic items (including those for bad status removal and other healing), make a large part of the source be those that the party manages to loot off spellcasting enemies -- have part of the party's them be that it uses their enemies' own tools against them.
Also, will any friendly NPC 6/9 or 9/9 spellcasters exist in the setting (for instance, church patron)? This could help as long as the party can return to base.
Alternatively, if they don't exist, but other adventurers also manage to collect a few items as above, the PCs base could have some kind of magic item exchange to help out in case they get in a real fix with needing one particular bad status removal that they can't otherwise get off enemies.
Also, will any friendly NPC 6/9 or 9/9 spellcasters exist in the setting (for instance, church patron)? This could help as long as the party can return to base.
Yes, though they'll be spread out. They'll belong to the Bard, Skald, Herbalist, and Adept classes. There won't be one in every town, nor will they always be affiliated with a religion.
I think I'm going to give Bards and Skalds Lesser Restoration as a 2nd level spell.
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Let's face it, the bad guys having access to things the good guys do not, is already non core, and you don't want to swim after a ship that sailed.
Not really. Most of the monsters in the bestiaries get weird powers, some of which are completely OP compared to anything that PCs get. Say, a lich's phylactery.
Given that the players are knowingly signing on to a low-magic game, I don't see a meaningful difference between "Hey, you might run into a lich/vampire/dragon" and "Hey, you might run into a wizard."
Just make sure they have the tools to deal with it.
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That is interesting. If I were rolling in that kind of setting I'd probably be doing something like kineticist, medium(channel heirophant spirit) via relic channeler. I wonder if animal companions would become more powerful as it would be the few ways to gain extra mobility options, I.e fly.
If mediums and kineticists were allowed, I'd be willing to playtest the system even though I generally play magic users.
Wild child brawler, superstitious barbarians are also good choices.
While my initial reaction was to poo-poo on the entire thing, I find myself intrigued by the idea and would like to see where this goes. It might end up being a disaster; but if it can be pulled off correctly, it would be a pretty epic campaign.
From how you describe it, a wizard would be as terrifying as a dragon flying overhead a group of 1st-level adventurers. It might not attack them at that point in time, but it would definitely give the party a good reason to wear the brown pants.
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I started out giving out single use healing items when i did something similar like id call them lemba leaves or what have you and it would be a one shot cure light wounds item.
Naturally occurring Good Berries would be a good idea too. Maybe your herbalists could preserve their power in preserves.
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I started out giving out single use healing items when i did something similar like id call them lemba leaves or what have you and it would be a one shot cure light wounds item.Naturally occurring Good Berries would be a good idea too. Maybe your herbalists could preserve their power in preserves.
That's my jam.
Oh God the preserves/jam jokes are too much but I find myself wanting to make it happen.
I'll keep folks apprised as I update things. I've spent the last couple nights focusing on setting lore / fluff and a map as well as some custom race ideas. Next is to create the Herbalist, tinker with the Bard and Skald spell lists, and then I'll start creating a document outlining the house rules and limitations in the setting.
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That's my jam.I started out giving out single use healing items when i did something similar like id call them lemba leaves or what have you and it would be a one shot cure light wounds item.Naturally occurring Good Berries would be a good idea too. Maybe your herbalists could preserve their power in preserves.
That pun made me jellyous
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I don't know, maybe we should spread this out.That pun made me jellyousThat's my jam.I started out giving out single use healing items when i did something similar like id call them lemba leaves or what have you and it would be a one shot cure light wounds item.Naturally occurring Good Berries would be a good idea too. Maybe your herbalists could preserve their power in preserves.
I propose a toast.:)
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You'd butter do it quickly, since your response was berry late.I propose a toast.:)I don't know, maybe we should spread this out.That pun made me jellyousThat's my jam.I started out giving out single use healing items when i did something similar like id call them lemba leaves or what have you and it would be a one shot cure light wounds item.Naturally occurring Good Berries would be a good idea too. Maybe your herbalists could preserve their power in preserves.
Must you all make these puns with such aplomb a plum?!
Have you talked to your players?
I may be wrong,but I'm seeing a lot of "I want" on the setting, tone, and feel of the game, which is fine. But, you've seemed to put a lot of time and effort into a world with lots assumptions on how your players will run their characters.
It is always a good idea to remember that it is not just your story, but theirs also.
I'll be recruiting players for this online when I start - specifically looking for players that want this kind of game. I'm not springing this on a group I already have.
That's something I wish I could edit into the first post so people would notice that right away. I regret not thinking my first post through very well.
One of the OP's rights is to amend and explain.
If someone responds to an earlier post before reading the entire topic, just gentilly update them.
If goodberries go sour they become bad berries and have harming energy. Sorry if the lid has been jammed shut on these puns.:)
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My first 3.5 experience was something akin to this. It really does come down to picking and choosing enemies carefully and being wary of certain tactics. But for context, it went up to level 15 and beyond, magic items barely existed at all and the only caster was a druid who spent most of his spell slots on being the party chauffeur. No crowd control or anything.
If you control the enemies (particularly casters) sub-optimally, and have a party who aren't particularly interested in power play it can be a total blast. Playing E6-9 will help a lot because the CR system will rapidly stop being helpful.
The only thing that makes me sad about being E6 is that the Heritor Knight's fun special moves won't get to see play. This is exactly the sort of campaign they'd kick ass in.
Either way, these games can make for excellent personal stories. I endorse this and wish you good luck!
Actually, you should be getting feedback on how to do this from your players. Player input is critical for a game like this. They'll have to be in on it, or it's just not going to fly.
If my group were doing this, I'd be playing my DVR at home - it's just not my style of game.
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Actually, you should be getting feedback on how to do this from your players. Player input is critical for a game like this. They'll have to be in on it, or it's just not going to fly.
If my group were doing this, I'd be playing my DVR at home - it's just not my style of game.
I believe the post three above yours addresses that concern:
I'll be recruiting players for this online when I start - specifically looking for players that want this kind of game. I'm not springing this on a group I already have.
That said, there's always some room for getting input after recruiting players - for example, you might not need to bother with writing an herbalist class or changing the bard's spell list if no one would be interested in playing those classes.
Yeah, I think I'll be focusing on writing the campaign setting and such first, and then balancing the game around the classes that already exist, and THEN seeing if there's a desire for an Herbalist class or Bard class afterwards.
So that's what I've been focusing on so far: the map, the races, the setting lore, and a rough idea of what sort of adventures can be found where. Then I'll start creating NPCs (hostile and friendly), monsters, and what-have-you.
I think the next thread I make will have a link to a Google Docs page on the first post with links inside it to things like Houserules and races and etc. for easy reference.