One level man!

[Suthainn]

So, I've recently been trying to figure out a still playable character who only ever takes one level of any particular class, it has to still be able to not be a drag on a party and ideally actually prove useful. Thus far I've opted for a switch-hitter since that seems the most likely to work, but any other ideas are welcome, I'm not married to anything yet.

So far I have a build as follows, any ideas, advice, thoughts on a completely different way to do it are more than welcome!

1 Monk (Zen Archer) - PBS, Bonus: Precise Shot
2 Barbarian (Savage Technologist) - Deadly Aim
3 Ranger (Hooded Champion)- Weapon Focus (Longbow)
4 Bloodrager (Prowler at Worlds End)
5 Swashbuckler (Falcata Swashbuckler)- Power Attack
6 Hunter (Feral Hunter)
7 Occultist (Battlehost)- Extra Panache
8 Investigator (Mastermind)
9 Vigilante (Avenger) - Snap Shot
10 Fighter - Bonus: Combat Reflexes
11 Slayer (Sniper) - Improved Snap Shot

The Rage classes grant him some much needed buffs for melee combat (and bonus to hit for ranged, but no damage until he gets an adaptable bow), mostly full BAB classes should mean a decent chance to hit and frankly his saves are ridiculously good (even Will isn't too shabby by level 11 though it probably needs some propping up tbh).

Overall he seems like he'll make a passable archer/melee combatant, have a smattering of social/knowledge abilities and reasonable saves along with a bunch of cool (if very limited use) tricks he can throw out. AC might be a problem without wearing armour, though possibly no more than any other high dex character, so I'm not sure if the Monk level is worth it. That said, I'm sure he can be better, help me hive mind!

[Ridiculon]

what oracle curse did you take? I mean its a drop in the pond but i had to start somewhere haha

[Chess Pwn]

vigilante - gives a +4 to a skill
fighter - bonus feat
barb/paladin - I prefer paladin, also torutured crusader gives 2 more skills
Umonk* - unarmored flurry, needs a trait to work with barb or go with paladin
bloodrager - familiar, go urban for no AC loss
cavalier - archetype for power attack
slayer
gunslinger
ranger
brawler
swashbuckler

this is 11 levels worth of full bab classes.
saves end up to be 18/14/4 which places will still better than most martials, and your familiar can be a hedgehog to boost it. 46 skills over 11 levels is slightly better than 4 skills per level. your bloodrager level lets you use wands of mage armor to up your ac.

dips that don't drop accuracy
Warpriest - weapon focus
champion medium - +3 damage too
archaeologist bard - as a swift action, even better with fate's favored

sub these in for things like gunslinger and other classes that aren't offering much, added bonus of really helping your will save

wild child brawler
druid
sacred huntmaster inquisitor
mad dog
cavalier
oracle
vigilante
hunter
warpriest

9 classes with animal companion/mount at lv1 use boon companion to get to 13 - bab is hit pretty hard on this one though

[BadBird]

Make the Fighter level Unbreakable Fighter, and take one level of Ka Stone Living Monolith. Living Monolith uses character level for it's free Enlarge Person effect, and Ka Stone grants full BAB when enlarged and free Toughness.

[Mark Carlson 255]

I this this topic is in response to another in which the poster said he had a player who wanted to do what you are doing.
I am glad that we can actually see your thought process in action.

But as I told the other poster, you should build out your ideas and test them vs other builds at equal levels.
Why?

Well, IMHO there is often a lot more then just level bonuses, saves and feasts that make a PC equal to the challenge rating he/she/it/them/other gets in the game. So if your PC is not taking up the slack on the "ability" end but keeps it on the numbers end then your CR should be reduced when figuring out encounters.

So my advice is test test test to see if it is viable.
My guess is that you gain some versatility/power but you lose quite a bit of those things also.

MDC

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Jason Wu did one better in the Living Force campaign. His stated goal was to reach as high a level as he could without going beyond 0 BAB. He got up to 7th level with his last class being Jedi Counsular.

This is also the character who knocked himself out with his own stun baton, when trying to prove how "defective" it was. He'd just survived a battle where he couldn't roll beyond a 5 and so the character thought it was the baton that was defective.

When he hit himself to demonstrate this.. he rolled a nat 20.... and confirmed it.

[Avoron]

Ooh, how about loading up on channels for the ultimate condition remover machine? Rerolls are always fun, so we can work that in as well.

Let's try it with only divine spellcasting classes. Neutral good alignment, human race, starting stats something like 7/14/14/12/12/18.

Start with a level in dual-cursed life oracle with the deaf and wolf-scarred face curses. Take the channel revelation with the self-perfection variant channeling for incredibly versatile 5/day condition suppression, along with Selective Channel so you enemies don't receive the benefits. Then grab Extra Revelation to start handing out immediate action rerolls through the ridiculously good Misfortune revelation. You also have a small collection of first level spells, which continue to grow as you enter more divine classes.

Next we can take a level in cleric of Desna for seven more uses of channel energy, freedom and luck domain powers, and a few prepared spells to go with your spontaneous ones. Follow it up with a level in sacred huntmaster inquisitor, getting an inquisition and Boon Companion for a nice little mount. Then a level of warpriest with the liberation and luck blessings, gaining proficiency in heavy armor. Top it all off with a level of life shaman for five more uses of channel energy, the feat Quick Channel, and a familiar. As soon as possible, get your hands on a sacred amulet of mighty fists.

By level 5 you still have +0 BAB, but your Fort and Will saves are great and you have all the AC that the clunkiest armor can provide. More importantly, you have at least 17 uses of channel energy that can be activated as a move action and suppress any conditions in the game, as well as handing out free rerolls and freedom of movement from your blessings with no extra action cost for you. When you don't feel like channeling you can still buff allies with your luck domain reroll power or one of your many first level spells. And all the while you can spam the insane power of immediate action Misfortune on both enemies and allies.

Maybe not the best possible contribution to a 5th level party, but still pretty good for a +0 BAB character.

[Darigaaz the Igniter]

If you have any barb or bloodrager levels I'd consider a level of lame metal oracle at 9th or later. You become immune to fatigue and negated the speed penalty with the Dance of Blades revelation.

EDIT: Also a character concept like this is almost begging for VMC.

[Alex Mack]

Champion medium is probably the best single level dip for a martial character thanks to the massive damage bonus and the good saves. Also opens up some nice items (that armor from Armor Master Handbook) and the spirit Focus feat.

[Suthainn]

Awesome, thanks for the ideas everyone!

The Living Monolith, Champion and Archaeologist Bard especially all like really good levels to add to it, each bringing a significant buff that should help keep the character viable (and not just annoy his party!)

The Divine version with all those channels is actually a really cool idea Avoron, seems like it would be great at low to mid levels but might be tough to contribute at higher levels, maybe, possibly ot could go Witch/Shaman for hexes which aren't save based?

That's a fantastic story Drahliana, sounds like a ton of fun, though the idea here is to create a character that remains useful to his party, after all no likes someone who just drags the group down (unless you're all close friends playing for giggles maybe), still a fun story though :D

I'm not really up on VMC, doesn't that use most of your feats? Meaning he'd likely have to go melee beat stick (since Power Attack is all they *really* need)?

[Bober]

The followings are all classes with a +1 BAB at 1st level, and without great alignment limitations (actually the only one is non-lawful for the barbarian).
- Ranger
- Fighter
- Slayer | Vanguard (Could go with Sniper, but I focus more on close-mid range, and vanguard gives a +1 to INIT which is always nice)
- Bloodrager | Bloodline Arcana (Bonded item or familiar, also the only bloodline not linked to CHA)
- Brawler | Mutagenic Mauler (bonus on DEX is nice)
- Samurai
- Barbarian | Primal Hunter (Exceptional Pull, +2 on ranged attack rolls while raging)
- Cavalier | Luring Cavalier (Far Challenge, Friendly Fire teamwork feat)
- Gunslinger | (I would pick Pistolero, because your firearm wouldn't be your main weapon, and the pistol is the only one easy to conceal and to carry around without giving up other items/weapons)
- Swashbuckler | (I would pick Picaroon, because it works well with the Pistolero Gunslinger)

That's 10 classes with +1 BAB each. Those without an archetype it's because I didn't find any archetype that I believe works better than the standard class on a ranged build (with longbow)

You could give up barbarian, and pick both Paladin and UC Monk, by being Lawful Good, having one more class with +1 BAB. I didn't choose this path because I believe CHA is most likely going to be your first dump stat, which makes paladin skills very limited.
You could also pick the Anti-Paladin class, if your DM lets you play a Chaotic Evil character. So that would be another +1 BAB that works with the Barbarian.

Then there is the Vigilante Avenger, which has +1 BAB at 1st level..

The list is in no particular order, and I don't really know which order would be better if you had to start from level 1.

That makes 10 (or 11 if you go the Paladin/UC Monk way) levels with full BAB. After that it's up to you: you can keep going with new classes, stopping your BAB progression, or you could pick one (or more) of the classes above and level it up to keep having full BAB.

I personally would not give up BAB to have a few more lvl1 powers. I would either go full fighter/ranger from that point on, or get lvl2-3 of a few of those classes to unlock even more powers (which would eventually open up different archetypes too, since some archetypes like Fighter-Archer begin with changes at lvl 2 or 3)

[Avoron]

Suthainn wrote:

The Divine version with all those channels is actually a really cool idea Avoron, seems like it would be great at low to mid levels but might be tough to contribute at higher levels, maybe, possibly ot could go Witch/Shaman for hexes which aren't save based?

Hmmm... the main reason I didn't include anything to do with higher levels wasn't so much that there wouldn't be any way to contribute, it was more that there wasn't much else the build needed in order to work. I think that's an inevitable consequence of this sort of dip-heavy build: you get all of your class features in the exact order you want them, so of course you get the best ones first. The self-perfection variant channeling, for instance, is versatile enough that it is stays relevant all the way until level 20: it can free your whole party from a crushing hand or a scintillating pattern or a power word stun or a mass hold monster. And it's easy enough to keep your uses per day up with magic items, Extra Channel, and triple-counted Charisma boosts.

But, yeah, hexes are a nice idea. Unfortunately, shamans don't get hexes until second level, but a dip in witch for Fortune would be a great idea. It sticks with the reroll theme from Luck domain and Misfortune revelation, with similar potential that lasts late into the game and a very generous use restriction.

Ooh, what about a halfling jinxer? The Halfling Jinxer racial trait gets you an at-will debuff with saves that aren't tied to class, so it could fit right into any non-feat intensive chasis. Start out with Great Fortitude at level 1, and at level 3 grab Bolster Jinx and dip into Id Rager for the bonus Iron Will, and your raging jinxes will be inflicting -3 Fort, -1 Ref, -3 Will. Sluggish Jinx at level 5 makes that -3 to attack and AC as well, and Ability Focus (jinx) at level 7 gives the DC a nice boost. And at level 9, you can dip into arcanist for Metamagic Knowledge (Widen Spell) and Area Jinx to debuff in a 10-ft. burst.

And here's a one-level-per-class build that's... actually sort of terrifying (albeit with help from the alarmingly powerful damnation feats):

Human
Lawful Evil
starting stats: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 11
Traits: Adopted (Fiery Glare), Steel Skin

Level 1: Fighter (Vengeful Hunter) Feats: Enforcer, Fiendskin, Soulless Gaze
You start with 18 AC from your scale mail and shield and a sap attack at +4 (1d6+3) that triggers an automatic demoralize attempt, on which you can take 10 to get a 17. These demoralize attempts stack over multiple rounds to make the target frightened, then panicked. Also, you have resist acid 10.
Level 2: Bloodrager (Id Rager, Steelblood) [despair focus] Feat: Skill Focus (intimidate)
You get bloodrage, full plate proficiency, an extra +5 to Intimidate, and +2 attack and damage against any creature you demoralize when in rage.
Level 3: Unchained Monk (Scaled Fist) Feats: Intimidating Prowess, Mask of Virtue
You get another +5 to Intimidate, immunity to fire, and a concealed alignment.
Level 4: Cleric (Evangelist) [destruction (torture) domain]
You get inspire courage and a 4/day free action sneak attack that stacks with Enforcer and gets a bonus equal to your damage.
Level 5: Cavalier (Gendarme) [order of the eclipse] Feats: Maleficium, Power Attack
You get Power Attack, challenge, immunity to cold, mostly useless spell boosts, a completely useless mount, and an unbelievably useful swift action demoralize that stacks with all your others.
Level 6: Battle Herald [shake it off inspiring command]
You get +2 Intimidate and a bit of versatile condition removal.
Level 7: Ulfen Guard [intimidating glare rage power] Feat: Cornugon Smash
You get another free action intimidate on every attack that stacks with the Enforcer one, and you can intimidate with a move action when in rage. When you add in your brand new iterative, this is the level where you really start handing out those higher fear effects.
Level 8: Unchained Rogue (Rake) Feat: Weapon Finesse
Yet another free action intimidate on every would-be sneak attack. Because why leave them frightened when you can leave them panicked?
Level 9: Warpriest [destruction and madness blessings] Feats: Weapon Focus (whip), Whip Mastery
Hopefully you didn't invest too much into that sap of yours, because whips are now so much cooler. 15 foot reach, 1.5x Str/Power Attack damage, Weapon Focus, the whole nine yards. Also, a blessing that can take your frightened victims and give them an enhanced version of the confused condition.
Level 10: Brawler (Snakebite Striker)
This gives you +1d6 sneak attack that can translate into +5 Intimidate with your rake ability.
Level 11: Wizard (Spirit Binder) [enchantment school, peacock familiar] Feat: Dazzling Display
You get +5 intimidate and a potential flanking buddy, plus the ability to demoralize an entire area.
Level 12: Mesmerist (Mindwyrm Mesmer) [fearsome guise trick]
You get +1 Intimidate, no penalty for intimidating creatures larger than you, and the ability to implant illusions that trigger as free intimidate checks.

By level 12, you've got all the basics of the build down. You get 2-4 free demoralize checks on every hit with your whip, and you can demoralize as a move action or a swift action as well. You can even demoralize in a 30 foot radius or through a triggered fearsome guise. Your Intimidate bonus has risen to insane proportions, and all of your successful checks stack to inflict frightened and panicked conditions. If an enemy isn't immune to fear or mind control, they're basically already running away. Apart from that primary focus, you're acting as a moderately powerful melee combatant, two-handed Power Attacking with a whip and a quasi-3/4 BAB. You also have plenty of skills, a scattering of spells, and a handful of beneficial abilities.

For the next eight levels, you can take a mixture of full BAB classes that provide a minor combat boost (swashbuckler, insinuator antipaladin, hellknight, freebooter ranger, slayer) and lower BAB classes that provide bonuses to Intimidate and miscellaneous useful abilities (dual-cursed oracle, mastermind investigator, spellbreaker torture inquisitor). Gear will be standard for a melee character, with a few minor purchases to boost intimidate like a battle mask, a maiden's helm, and plenty of gravelly tonic.

And yeah, this character has to be to be Evil with a capital "E," but that's sort of its theme. It's actually really neat how well all these levels fit together into a coherent concept: damnation feats, despair focus, torture and madness domains ...and of course, lots and lots of fear.

[Suthainn]

That's absolutely fantastic :D

It's amazing how well that build all comes together despite the class limitations, I'm certainly imagining it as some Balor wannabe, driving the masses (and enemies) before them in terror (probably have to get flaming weapon enchantment on the whip just for sheer style points ;)).

Many thanks for your input (and everyone elses!), you've given me some really great ideas and opened up what I thought was possible, whilst remaining useful, to a far greater degree than I would have suspected existed.

A few solid melee and ranged types, a channeler, and the king of intimidation... most excellent!

I might even have a game of Hells Vengeance coming up sometime in the future so the Intimimancer may well end up played, thanks again Avoron!

[Bigdaddyjug]

Avoron wrote:

...

There are at least 2 problems with this build. First, I'm fairly certain you can't take levels in oracle and shaman. Second, I do not believe variant channeling is available to life oracles.

[Suthainn]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Avoron wrote:

...

There are at least 2 problems with this build. First, I'm fairly certain you can't take levels in oracle and shaman. Second, I do not believe variant channeling is available to life oracles.

Thankfully you can definitely take levels in original and hybrid classes, it just usually isn't very useful.

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).

Variant channeling is a different kettle of fish, since it was originally based on the various Gods portfolios when it came out in Ultimate Magic I suspect you'll see a lot of table variation. Some GMs will be fine with variant channeling that matches your Mystery, some won't.

[Havoq]

Quote:

A character who has the channel energy ability from a class other than cleric may use these variant channeling rules if the class’s abilities are tied to serving a deity. For example, paladins can select alternative channeling abilities if they serve a deity, as can oracles with the Life mystery (as they serve many deities), but necromancer wizards cannot.

Great thread. Love the concept.

[Grumbaki]

Ok, fun thought process time.

Race: Half-Orc (+2 strength, +2 all saves, darkvision, +2 intimidate, +2 knowledge local)
20 point buy: Str (17) Dex (15) Con (14) Int (10) Wis (10) Cha (11)

Lvl 1: Relic Master Fighter (2 feats at lvl 1 for level and fighter. Also get use magic device as a class skill) +2 Fort
Lvl 2: Brawler (Brawler's Cunning, Martial Flexibility, Martial Training) +2 Fort, +2 Ref
Lvl 3: Trapper Guide Ranger (Trapfinding, Ranger's Focus to give +2hit and +2 dmg against one enemy once per day) +2 Fort, +2 Ref.
Lvl 4: Enlightened Bloodrager (+10ft movement, Bloodrage, lvl 0 spells!) +2 Fort, +2 Will when raging...+1 Strength
Lvl 5: Vanguard Slayer (Studied Target, +1 Initiative) +2 Fort, +2 Ref
Lvl 6: Standard Bearer Cavalier (Banner, Challenge. Pick whichever order fits your RP the best. Bonus points for making it fit the enlightened paladin self-perfection, Tactician) +2 Fort
Lvl 7: Unchained Monk (lvl 3 fists, stunning fist, flurry of blows, bonus feat) +2 Fort, +2 Ref
Lvl 8: Enlightened Paladin (+1 AC for your Cha. Count as lvl 2 now for your fists on the monk table. Personal trial once per day for extra damage against anyone. Quest for self perfection rather than paladin code) +2 Fort, +2 Will...+1 Cha
Lvl 9: Avenger Vigilante (+4 to your favorite face skill) +2 Ref, +2 Will
Lvl 10: Furious Guardian (Chosen ally, guard dedication, rage) +1 Fort, +1 Will
Lvl 11: Courser Swashbuckler (Deeds/Panache, Dodge Bonus Feat, +5ft movement speed) +2 Ref
Lvl 12: Chevalier (Aura of Courage, Reckless for bonus on 1st round enter combat) +1 Fort, +1 Will...+1 Con

End with Str (18) Dex (16) Con (14) Int (10) Wis (10) Cha (12)

All in all gives you a full +12 BaB.
Fort (+24 / +26 when raging) Ref (+17) Will (+8 / +10 when raging)

You're fortitude save is so high that you are pretty much auto pass. Your reflex save is up there as well. Your will save isn't bad, but you could take Iron Will to get it to a safer +10/+12.

Unlike other martials you can take stealth, perception and disable device to be a backup rogue. You can also make intimidate pretty damn good with your +2 racial bonus, +4 vigilante bonus and Cha12. You have enough mix of high and low skill point classes that each of the above skills should be fairly good. Not great, but pretty good. Better than what a fighter could do, at least. Throw in skill focus-perception while you are at it, because your Wis isn't great and your trapfinding only gives you +1.

Power Attack, Rage, Ranger Focus, Challenge, Personal Trial, Martial Flexibility. Something to do pretty much any combat. And when all else fails, impress your friends with some cantrips and pretend that you are alos a wizard.

[Avoron]

Suthainn wrote:

That's absolutely fantastic :D

It's amazing how well that build all comes together despite the class limitations, I'm certainly imagining it as some Balor wannabe, driving the masses (and enemies) before them in terror (probably have to get flaming weapon enchantment on the whip just for sheer style points ;)).

Thanks, I was very pleased with how it all came together for both mechanics and flavor. Note that a balor wannabe should probably be taking a level in barbarian rather than monk so they can be chaotic rather than lawful. This knocks out hellknight as an eventual option, but also means you can get the intimidating glare rage power with a helm of fearsome mein and take a different one with your ulfen guard level.

And while we're on the subject of flavor, can I just point out how much I appreciate the fact that this character's peacock familiar gets a mechanical benefit from being an antipaladin in a past life?

[ShroudedInLight]

I've been working on one of these that is also charisma based but I haven't gotten past planning out the first four levels.

Musketeer (Swashbuckler Archetype)
Mysterious Stranger (Gunslinger Archetype)
Savage Technologist (Barbarian Archetype)
Archaeologist (Bard Archetype) + Fate's Favored trait

You have double your charisma available for use on deeds, which means plenty for quick clear of Cha to Damage on fire-arms. I would love to find a way to duel wield firearms with this build since the cha to damage deed grants the boost for all firearm attack rolls. However the problem comes down to reloading the guns because with only one level you cannot get the extra arm from alchemist or the ability to combat juggle from bard.

It helps that my GM has homeruled that my character gains the benefits of FCB as long as I never take more than one level in any class.

[Havoq]

I wonder if it's possible make a pure caster this way...ermm humph.

[ShroudedInLight]

Hey folks, I have a question that relates to this, well a build I was thinking of. Do different sources of Inspire Courage stack?

For instance if you were an Evangelist Cleric and a Bard multiclass, would their levels stack to determine the effects of Inspire Courage or would you have two separate pools of performance?

[Avoron]

Havoq wrote:

I wonder if it's possible make a pure caster this way...ermm humph.

How about the ultimate color sprayer?

True Neutral
Gnome (blended view/dimdweller/eternal hope/faerie dragon magic/fey magic)
Initial Stats: 5/14/16/11/7/20
Traits: Magical Lineage (color spray), Pattern Seeker, Wayang Spellhunter (color spray)
Drawback: Hedonistic

1 (Psychic Sorcerer): Eschew Materials, Persistent Spell
2 (Heavens Oracle): Awesome Display revelation
3 (Spirit Walker Mesmerist): Deific Obedience (Mahathallah)
4 (Eldritch Scion Magus):
5 (Mindchemist Alchemist): Spell Focus (illusion)

By level 5 you'll be tossing around 11/day DC 22 persistent color sprays that treat enemies as 6HD lower. You'll also have a cognatogen that can raise that to DC 24 and 8HD lower, as well as a mesmerist stare that can make undead susceptible to your sprays and give anyone a -2 penalty on their save. Not to mention a few alchemist extracts, a mesmerist trick, a mithral breastplate, and a bloodline familiar.

[pulseoptional]

I tried doing this with things that give you sneak attack at every level, or something akin to it. I was also trying to keep the BAB at 0.

It made my head hurt.

[Tacticslion]

dotin

[Skull]

We frequently joke about making a character that keeps taking 1 level of a new class that does not have +1BAB at first level. Get to level 10 with 0 BAB!

[UnArcaneElection]

If you use Pathfinder Unchained Fractional Base Bonus Progression(*), taking levels in classes with less than full BAB is a lot less painful, but on the flip side, you don't get to stack all those starting +2s for the good Saves of each class (although you will get the starting +2 for each type of Save unless you somehow manage to take no classes that have a good Save of one type).

(*)Not allowed in PFS, last I checked.

[Dukasaurus82]

The Falconer Ranger gets an animal companion at level 1, you could add a level of Druid & Nature Warden to level it up.

[Dukasaurus82]

1 level of Alchemist will give you
the ability to identify potions as if using detect magic by examining the potion for 1 round,
Brew Potion as a bonus feat,
Throw Anything as a bonus feat,
Extracts,
Bombs,
& a Mutagen that gives you +2 natural armour & increases 1 physical stat of your choice by +4.

[Dukasaurus82]

If you want to add Sneak Attack classes, you could add
Rogue or Ninja,
Vivisectionist Alchemist (no bombs),
Snakebite Striker Brawler (no martial flexibility),
Assassin,
Guild Thief,
Ninja of the Crescent Moon,
Outlaw of the Crimson road,
& Spymaster.

They all get Sneak Attack at level 1.

[Dukasaurus82]

1 level of Shadowdancer lets you hide in plain sight.

[Chess Pwn]

ShroudedInLight wrote:

Hey folks, I have a question that relates to this, well a build I was thinking of. Do different sources of Inspire Courage stack?

For instance if you were an Evangelist Cleric and a Bard multiclass, would their levels stack to determine the effects of Inspire Courage or would you have two separate pools of performance?

They don't stack because they don't say they stack and you'd have two separate pools.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Suthainn wrote:

That's a fantastic story Drahliana, sounds like a ton of fun, though the idea here is to create a character that remains useful to his party, after all no likes someone who just drags the group down (unless you're all close friends playing for giggles maybe), still a fun story though :D

Living Force was a very stand out campaign as far as network campaigns go. I was able to run a Jedi Knight character who made it to a hairs breadth of 7th level, i.e. full Knight status without killing a single living thing. (Robots didn't count in his opinion), redeem two jedi who had fallen to the Dark Side, and ultimately gave his life to bring a race out of a dark side trap. We actually had one module where I and another Jedi character managed to succeed without rolling a single combat die. I can't think of any other campaign where that would have been possible.

He was buried with full Jedi Knight honors, deemed having passed his final test.

[Suthainn]

Thanks for all the additional thoughts and builds!

I wonder if a Sneak attack build is actually possible, it's really going to rely on prestige classes from the look of your suggestions Dukasaurus82, which might end up making it rather spread everywhere feat wise and even then it looks like a good few of those aren't Paizo material so you'd have to run it past your GM, still I very much like the idea!

Ninja 1, Rogue 2, Alchemist (Vivisectionist) 3, Brawler (Snakebite Striker) 4, Assassin 5, Inner Sea Pirate 6, Mastery Spy 7, Sleepless Detective 8, Red Mantis Assassin 9, Vigilante (Serial Killer *might* stack with Sneak Attack) 10

Your feats are almost entirely going to be spent qualifying for Red Mantis Assassin but that still makes you a solid TWF sneak attacker so not a real problem. The real issue is that despite having a 10d6 Sneak Attack your BAB at level 10 is... 1.

Of note Grey Gardener has sneak attack at level 1 as well but sadly requires 2nd level Divine spells so it's out.

[Dukasaurus82]

Probably best not to have a level 10 character with BAB+1, but I personally like the idea of adding Alchemist & Shadowdancer to a list of BAB+1 classes for their level 1 abilities & choosing Falconer as your Ranger archetype for the animal companion.
Obviously depends on what you like personally though.

[Inlaa]

Hm.

Barbarian (Mad Dog) 1, Cavalier (Huntmaster) 2, Inquisitor (Sacred Huntsman) 3, Brawler (Wild Child) 4, Druid 5, Hunter 6, Unchained Summoner 7, Wizard (Spirit Binder) 8, Ranger (Falconer) 9, Mammoth Rider 10.

Be a Half-Orc. Have the Beast Rider feat (allowing all your animal companions to count as 2 levels higher and be DINOSAURS) and Boon Companion on one of the animals. You now qualify for Mammoth Rider. Also, you have 7 animal companions, 1 familiar, and 1 eidolon.

[Thanael]

Suthainn wrote:

Thanks for all the additional thoughts and builds!

I wonder if a Sneak attack build is actually possible, it's really going to rely on prestige classes from the look of your suggestions Dukasaurus82, which might end up making it rather spread everywhere feat wise and even then it looks like a good few of those aren't Paizo material so you'd have to run it past your GM, still I very much like the idea!

Ninja 1, Rogue 2, Alchemist (Vivisectionist) 3, Brawler (Snakebite Striker) 4, Assassin 5, Inner Sea Pirate 6, Mastery Spy 7, Sleepless Detective 8, Red Mantis Assassin 9, Vigilante (Serial Killer *might* stack with Sneak Attack) 10

Your feats are almost entirely going to be spent qualifying for Red Mantis Assassin but that still makes you a solid TWF sneak attacker so not a real problem. The real issue is that despite having a 10d6 Sneak Attack your BAB at level 10 is... 1.

Of note Grey Gardener has sneak attack at level 1 as well but sadly requires 2nd level Divine spells so it's out.

This build totally breaks gestalt. Imagine combining this with one of the full BAB one level builds above...

Or if non gestalt combine with Sword Saint Samurai for moar! iajitsu quasi sneak attack.

This list of classes with Sneak attack (not necessarily at level 1 though) might contain a few more...

Strangler Brawler 2 for +2d6 Sneak when grappling.

[Thanael]

Chess Pwn wrote:

ShroudedInLight wrote:

Hey folks, I have a question that relates to this, well a build I was thinking of. Do different sources of Inspire Courage stack?

For instance if you were an Evangelist Cleric and a Bard multiclass, would their levels stack to determine the effects of Inspire Courage or would you have two separate pools of performance?

They don't stack because they don't say they stack and you'd have two separate pools.

Which can be awesome if you find a way to stack onto both pools. For examples with Battle Herald.

Quote:

Sermonic Performance

An evangelist gains the ability to deliver a select number of supernatural and spell-like performances through the force and power of her divinely inspired preaching and exhortation. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory) as the evangelist’s performance skill. However, an evangelist gains only the following types of bardic performance: countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage at 1st level; inspire greatness at 9th level; and inspire heroics at 15th level.

Quote:

bard and battle herald levels stack to determine the bonuses provided by inspire courage.

(Arcane Duelist) Bard 1/Sensei (Unchained?) Monk 1/Evangelist Cleric 1/Cavalier or Samurai 3/Battle Herald x anyone?

[thunderspirit]

.

[The Mad Comrade]

Suthainn wrote:

That's absolutely fantastic :D

It's amazing how well that build all comes together despite the class limitations, I'm certainly imagining it as some Balor wannabe, driving the masses (and enemies) before them in terror (probably have to get flaming weapon enchantment on the whip just for sheer style points ;)).

Many thanks for your input (and everyone elses!), you've given me some really great ideas and opened up what I thought was possible, whilst remaining useful, to a far greater degree than I would have suspected existed.

A few solid melee and ranged types, a channeler, and the king of intimidation... most excellent!

I might even have a game of Hells Vengeance coming up sometime in the future so the Intimimancer may well end up played, thanks again Avoron!

I'll second this. Fantastic build when using standard multiclassing rules. It's really hurt by the much slower BAB, but base saves of 16 Fort, 8 Reflex and 10 Will are nothing to sneeze at. Losing 4 points of BAB progression is worth the greatly improved saving throws.

For 13th level, I used Tattooed Sorcerer (to stash the pathetic peacock familiar permanently out of harm's way). If one has a worthwhile Int bonus by this point, Spell Mastery takes care of the most pressing spell book protection issues, i.e., you won't need one anymore. sequestered grimoire is a neat solution otherwise, albeit it might be susceptible to random dispel magics by mooks.

For patron deity I went with Zepar, but any deity granting access to the Torture subdomain should do the trick. As I read it, the Bloodrager's Charm Blessing - if one possesses a sufficiently high Wisdom bonus - can generate a "fear aura" that lets you flog someone to death with your whip whilst everyone around you looks on in horror, unable to intervene (Charm instead of Madness) for 3 1-minute uses per day. Much amusement could be had using a merciful whip.

At 12th level, assuming a +4 Cha headband and a +4 Str belt, but no other gear, the LE "master of fear" should be sporting an Intimidate bonus of roughly +45, give or take a few points. Worst case scenario the bare minimum Intimidate bonus is ~+40. With the ease of dishing out nonlethal damage via Enforcer to ramp that up spells "FUN!" at the expense of one's foes.

[Avoron]

The Mad Comrade wrote:

For 13th level, I used Tattooed Sorcerer (to stash the pathetic peacock familiar permanently out of harm's way).

Pathetic?!? With the spirit binder archetype, this peacock familiar has a full BAB and good Fort and Will saves, not to mention decent hp from all your d10 classes. It's small-sized, which means it can serve as a flanking buddy, helping you get sneak attacks that provide free intimidate checks with a +5 bonus. Far from stashing it permanently out of harm's way, you should keep your familiar around to help out. You could boost its survivability further by giving it either the mauler archetype for enhanced combat performance or the figment archetype so it revives every morning.

[Red Griffyn]

Suthainn wrote:

1 Monk (Zen Archer) - PBS, Bonus: Precise Shot
2 Barbarian (Savage Technologist) - Deadly Aim
3 Ranger (Hooded Champion)- Weapon Focus (Longbow)

How are you getting Deadly Aim at level 2?

[Kemuri Kunoichi]

I would think building a pure dip character might work better going for social skills, defense, and buffing...get a bunch of 1 level caster dips for healing and basic buff spells, skills, etc.

Focus mainly on mental stats, go unarmored, dip monk for wisdom based AC, assorted casters for every cantrip/orison in the game, and so many level 1 spells you could cast all day long, bardsong for party buffing, cleric for channeled healing, etc.

If built right, you could have crazy high rolls on pretty much every skill, every knowledge, speak almost every language, etc. so you would be a fantastic face character.

Not what you were going for, but still an interesting idea.

[Chess Pwn]

I don't see having a smattering of lv1 spells will be that useful for you, the bonuses will just be too small and too short as you go.

[The Mad Comrade]

Avoron wrote:

The Mad Comrade wrote:

For 13th level, I used Tattooed Sorcerer (to stash the pathetic peacock familiar permanently out of harm's way).

Pathetic?!? With the spirit binder archetype, this peacock familiar has a full BAB and good Fort and Will saves, not to mention decent hp from all your d10 classes. It's small-sized, which means it can serve as a flanking buddy, helping you get sneak attacks that provide free intimidate checks with a +5 bonus. Far from stashing it permanently out of harm's way, you should keep your familiar around to help out. You could boost its survivability further by giving it either the mauler archetype for enhanced combat performance or the figment archetype so it revives every morning.

spirit binder archetype wrote:

using the spirit binder’s level as its level...

leads me to believe that your spirit binder level is the key basis. I figured it counts as a 3rd or maybe 4th level familiar with half your hp. Since it counts as a 3 or 4 HD critter, it is dead meat walking. Best to tuck it away so it doesn't die and enjoy that sweet +3 Intimidate bonus and free Alertness feat until your damned soul is called to the afterlife.

Figment archetype would eliminate the need for having familiar tattoo altogether, which would be my choice. By 12th level, the last thing you should be worrying about is how you're getting a flanking buddy. The other front-line PC in the group should be tag-teaming things with you well before you even acquire the familiar.

[Avoron]

The Mad Comrade wrote:

leads me to believe that your spirit binder level is the key basis. I figured it counts as a 3rd or maybe 4th level familiar with half your hp

Hmm, possible. I can see the merit of your argument, but I didn't interpret the wording that way. A normal familiar's stats are based on your full character level, not just your level in the class that grants it, and I just read the soulbound familiar ability as changing the progression to that of the chosen class, not dramatically weakening the familiars of multiclass characters.

If you familiar is stuck with level one BAB and saves, then by all means, tuck it away as securely as possible.

[The Mad Comrade]

Avoron wrote:

The Mad Comrade wrote:

leads me to believe that your spirit binder level is the key basis. I figured it counts as a 3rd or maybe 4th level familiar with half your hp

Hmm, possible. I can see the merit of your argument, but I didn't interpret the wording that way. A normal familiar's stats are based on your full character level, not just your level in the class that grants it, and I just read the soulbound familiar ability as changing the progression to that of the chosen class, not dramatically weakening the familiars of multiclass characters.

If you familiar is stuck with level one BAB and saves, then by all means, tuck it away as securely as possible.

Ah, I see now. The basics are character level based. The beneficial improvements to natural armor, Int score and the ability to deliver touch spells are derived from effective Wizard level (which is 3rd IIRC)...

Familiars wrote:

Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.

Basics (BAB, effective HD for figuring stuff out, base saves, hp total) are derived from character level. Specific bonuses (Int score, natural armor, special familiar abilities) are Master Level (combined levels of classes that contribute to making the peacock a better mini-onion).

Without a lot of spells invested into it, especially on the defensive, the poor thing has an AC of 14 and has to feebly swipe its +9 attack bonus talons against AC 27 foes. 1 round in 5 it'll land 1 or 2 points of nonlethal damage.

Or I've got it wrong at it has a base AC of 18 instead of 14. Still not a good survival prospect without slathering on a copious number of spells. Without tapping your buddies' spell slots (just your own), you can get the AC to a moderate range for an hour (22 via Mage Armor, which is tissue paper against most CR 12 foes), much higher for about 8 rounds after spending 2 of your few spells for the day buffing it up further (Shield, Shield of Faith = AC 28).

If your fellow PCs feel like burning still-precious spell slots on your familiar instead of themselves and your PC, the peacock can get a LOT tougher but not significantly more formidable offensively. It'd be interesting to see how that works out in play.

Excepting the figment, getting your familiar obliterated eats 8 days and 2,400 gp at a clip at 12th level. Rather keep it tucked away and not lose Alertness and the +3 bonus to Intimidate!

[Suthainn]

Red Griffyn wrote:

Suthainn wrote:

1 Monk (Zen Archer) - PBS, Bonus: Precise Shot
2 Barbarian (Savage Technologist) - Deadly Aim
3 Ranger (Hooded Champion)- Weapon Focus (Longbow)

How are you getting Deadly Aim at level 2?

The requirements for Deadly Aim are Dex 13 and 1 BAB, whilst the Monk would qualify when Flurrying with his bow at level 1 I prefer Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot to start with, by level 2 he has a 'genuine' BAB of 1 from the Barbarian level so is able to use Deadly Aim whenever he pleases.

[FormerFiend]

I'd go with a level of Samurai as opposed to a level of Cavalier. Resolve gives you a reroll for will saves which I'd value over a teamwork feat at this point.

I'd also consider the Exciter Spiritualist archetype. Has a Rage-equivalent ability that can be used to buff either Str and Con or Dex and Cha, or all four for half as much. Don't see any reason why you couldn't use the Exciter's Rapture to buff Dex and Cha while using rage to buff Str and Con at the same time, and the dex buff would be good when you're using your ranged abilities.

[Chess Pwn]

FormerFiend wrote:

I'd go with a level of Samurai as opposed to a level of Cavalier. Resolve gives you a reroll for will saves which I'd value over a teamwork feat at this point.

I'd also consider the Exciter Spiritualist archetype. Has a Rage-equivalent ability that can be used to buff either Str and Con or Dex and Cha, or all four for half as much. Don't see any reason why you couldn't use the Exciter's Rapture to buff Dex and Cha while using rage to buff Str and Con at the same time, and the dex buff would be good when you're using your ranged abilities.

There's the FAQ that you can't have 2 "rage or rage like" effects on at once, if you do get two, you pick which one is used and don't have the other.