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I didn't kill him, his own heart did when it pumped that last precious hit-point out of his veins to take him from negative 13 to negative 14.
Conversely, I didn't kill him. My animal companion did. I merely cast mage armor stone skin barkskin strongjaw and aspect of the wolf on my animal companion.
I didn't kill him, gravity did. I merely moved him 5 feet into open air.
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Since the rule for PFS is that I can't voluntarily kill another character, then it's completely legit for me to kill their stupid eidolon, right, because that's not their character?
Similarly, can I play an evil character by committing an evil act at the beginning of a scenario, accepting the consequential alignment shift bestowed by the GM, playing through the scenario with my newly evil alignment, then buying an atonement at the end to revert to my original non-evil alignment and prevent my character's removal from the campaign?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'm pretty sure Paladins are in fact the only class.
I've had Paladins kill Pathfinder NPC that they were supposed to "return to the VC" when the NPC Pathfinder didn't want to return. "They said we needed to return them right? So I kill him and return the body."
I've also had Paladins who were trying to get information and got into a Diplomacy with a Succubus where the Paladin agreed to be their slave in exchange got the information.
Paladins! Sheesh.
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Agreeing to sacrifice people to sate the hunger of an undead creature, slaughtering helpless enemies before they can be redeemed as a Sarenrite, and rubbing magic evil rocks for no discernible reason, on the other hands, are much more blatant violations of the paladin code.
Uh... no, they're not; at least not always. I really dislike this attitude that there's only one possible way to play a Paladin, and everyone who does something different is "wrong" or "in need of correction."
Case 1: Torag's paladin's code is very much in the spirit of "Screw you, Protected mine." If negotiating with the creature is what's best and safest for your people then you're totally in the clear to do it. If the creatures you sacrifice just happen to be enemies of people... well... there's a saying involving birds and stones which applies here.
Case 2: Sarenrae has an explicit exemption for those who can't be redeemed, show no desire to do so, or whose continued existence is a threat to others. People keep forgetting Sarenrae isn't just a goddess of love and sunshine, she's just as much a goddess of blood and fire.
Case 3: The evil rocks are something of a point of contention, but I lump them in with raising undead. It's using evil to fight evil. Now there are some paladins (including one of mine) who are incredibly uncomfortable with that notion, and would rather let it be. But there are some who are willing to jeopardize their own salvation, in order to better fight evil. Neither side is right or wrong.
Being a paladin isn't just about being a glorious, perfect fairytale-esque knight in shinning armor. Sometimes it's about making the tough calls, to keep people safe. Sometimes it's about doing things other can't, or won't. Sometimes it's about falling. (Warning: 1d4chan link. Story is clean and awesome, rest of the website varies.)
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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Not sure, but it's really awkward when you sit at a table and you have seven people all trying to take on the role of GM. More comedic gold than the time-worn sketch 'Who's on First'...Locally I have seen people *role*play instead of *roll*play.
What's up with that?
...Now I want a session where we all do things trough interpretive dance...
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I have to warn tables that my Paladin of Erastil will not be charging into melee and does not wear heavy armor. I often get puzzled stares back. When I patiently explain that Erastil is the God of Archery they still don't seem to get it.The weight of evidence highly suggests that people in my area generally have no idea how a paladin is meant to be playedBut isn't that somewhat true in all areas?I have no evidence regarding other areas, and thus wished to cast no aspersions on those who may not be so deserving.
It has engendered a burning desire to play a 'proper' paladin, however... just gotta finalize a build.
I'm really looking forward to confusing people with my Paladin/Ninja of Kelinahat.
ETA: The Lawful Good Empyreal Lord of Spies.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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I have to warn tables that my Paladin of Erastil will not be charging into melee and does not wear heavy armor. I often get puzzled stares back. When I patiently explain that Erastil is the God of Archery they still don't seem to get it.The weight of evidence highly suggests that people in my area generally have no idea how a paladin is meant to be playedBut isn't that somewhat true in all areas?I have no evidence regarding other areas, and thus wished to cast no aspersions on those who may not be so deserving.
It has engendered a burning desire to play a 'proper' paladin, however... just gotta finalize a build.
I'm really looking forward to confusing people with my Paladin/Ninja of Kelinahat.
ETA: The Lawful Good Empyreal Lord of Spies.
I still need to make that psychic/paladin of Erecura. She's just reading your thoughts to make sure there's nothing naughty in them.
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I'm really looking forward to confusing people with my Paladin/Ninja of Kelinahat.ETA: The Lawful Good Empyreal Lord of Spies.
My name is Mikel Westcrown.
I used to be a spy until.....
"We've got a Fall Notice on you, you're blacklisted."
(Whistles).
When you Fall you've got nothing.
No cash, no credit, no job history.
You're stuck in whatever city they decide to dump you in.
"Where am I...?" "Okeno".
You do whatever work comes your way.
You rely on anyone who's still talking to you.
(Laughs). A trigger happy ex-girlfriend. "Should we shoot them?"
An old friend who used to inform on you to the Decemvirate "You know spies--bunch of b**** wimpy elves."
Family too.
"Hey is that your mom again?" If you're desperate.
"Someone needs your help Mikel."
Bottom line: As long as you've Fallen, you're not going anywhere.
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Paladin of the god of hunting and paladin of the god of herding? I'm sure that would be fun.And my Paladin worships Rowdrosh, the Divine Herdsman, so he prioritizes targeting predatory beasts over other enemies, if given the choice.
He's not a friend of most Druids.
Though I think it'd be cool to have him adventure with a Paladin of Erastil.
Wait... that's a real god?
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Wait... that's a real god?Paladin of the god of hunting and paladin of the god of herding? I'm sure that would be fun.And my Paladin worships Rowdrosh, the Divine Herdsman, so he prioritizes targeting predatory beasts over other enemies, if given the choice.
He's not a friend of most Druids.
Though I think it'd be cool to have him adventure with a Paladin of Erastil.
Both are real, though I always viewed Erastil more as a god of Community rather than Hunting. I guess there are multiple sects of every deity.
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His Domains are Animal, Community, Good, Law and Plant.
His Portfolio is Family, Farming, Hunting and Trade.
So, yeah, I've always considered him more a god of Community, rather than Hunting.
But, this conversation is a great example of how different people focus on different aspects of a deity.
It makes for great character development.
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I'm really looking forward to confusing people with my Paladin/Ninja of Kelinahat.ETA: The Lawful Good Empyreal Lord of Spies.
My name is Mikel Westcrown.
I used to be a spy until.....
"We've got a Fall Notice on you, you're blacklisted."
(Whistles).
When you Fall you've got nothing.
No cash, no credit, no job history.
You're stuck in whatever city they decide to dump you in.
"Where am I...?" "Okeno".
You do whatever work comes your way.
You rely on anyone who's still talking to you.
(Laughs). A trigger happy ex-girlfriend. "Should we shoot them?"
An old friend who used to inform on you to the Decemvirate "You know spies--bunch of b**** wimpy elves."
Family too.
"Hey is that your mom again?" If you're desperate.
"Someone needs your help Mikel."
Bottom line: As long as you've Fallen, you're not going anywhere.
Dammit. Now I want to get a bunch of friends together and run Mike, Sam, and Fi for PFS.
Infernal Management: "Who do you think's been protecting this whole time, Mikel? Who do you think's been shielding you from all those old enemies, the ones who've literally crawled their way out of their graves? You want out? Off this dragon? There's the door, right there."
And Larry the Undead Spy being literally undead... the whole Organization acting as a division of Hell working on a truce with the Celestials by taking out high-profile demons and dismantling their schemes...
Yeah. This needs to happen.
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I can't see how agreeing to sacrifice living people is honorable. Even agreeing to sacrifice evil people is still an evil act, and still is a violation of the paladin code that Torag's code doesn't modify.
1. You're confusing "being honorable" with "honoring Torag". The Code tells you to do the latter, not the former. One could argue that sending the message: "if you come into conflict with me, I will use every resource at my disposal to ensure your destruction." Is a decent way to honor a god of strategy and tactics. (Tangentially, I don't see how it's dishonorable. I think it's completely unrelated to the honor/dishonor dichotomy. It's like asking if a lizard is a dog or a cat.)
2. Whether it's evil is debatable. As many, many, oh god so many, alignment threads have argued. Killing evil people isn't evil. What happens to the body afterwards is kinda irrelevant. If the Druid's bear wants to eat an enemy you killed, I doubt you'd say that's evil, so why is it suddenly beyond the pale once the bear gets zombified?
Case 2: Yeah, those human bandits totally had zero chance of being redeemed.
I would like to direct you to the very first sentence of my post. I said these are not always issues; it's dependent on the context, and then I listed 3 different contexts where the actions you mentioned would make sense. Stop re-contextualizing my statements to put words in my mouth.
Case 3: If you want to use evil to fight evil, you should not have rolled a paladin.
Well, that's just like, your opinion man. Don't chide other people for having differing perspectives.
If you want to play a gritty anti-hero, you shouldn't be playing a paladin.
Last time I checked, you don't get to tell people what/how to play.
There's a whole lot of space between "gritty anti-hero" and "fairytale knight in shining armor." A Paladin can fit anywhere on that spectrum.
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Is this new? (Not that I'm complaining, of course; this is as it should be.)
You must inform the GM that you plan to use additional resource material before play begins and allow the GM to use your material to familiarize herself with any new material.
It's not new; it does appear in the previous Guide. It seems silly to me, however; unless one is playing in the Core Campaign, I believe it's safe to assume everyone will be using additional resource material.
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Announcing it segues well into the GM looking over your sources, though. That's the big takeaway for me.
True. I just ask everyone upfront if they use any obscure feats, spells, class abilities, etc. with which they think I may be unfamiliar. If I am unfamiliar with it, then I have them explain it to me and show me the source so I can make sure my understanding of what's written aligns with their explanation.
But that's really a horse apiece.