|
If you don't mind the alignment stuff, the paladin offers a lot for those interested in a dip: weapon and armor proficiencies, adding your Charisma mod to your saves, immunity to fear and even a bit of healing, possibly.
Of late I've been pondering a character who starts with a 3-level dip into paladin, then moves on to psychic (with the Faith discipline) for the rest of their career, wondering if any paladin archetypes might be worth taking. Obviously I want to hang on to Divine Grace and Aura of Courage at all costs, but would hanging on to Lay On Hands be worth it considering I won't be able to accumulate Mercies and stuff, and I'm not as dependent on using it to act as a HP battery like the popular Oradin build. The Mind Sword archetype, in particular, feels very flavorful when blended with psychic.
What do you here in the forum think? Can I get away with ditching Lay On Hands, or is it vital even at its most basic? What other paladin archetypes are worth looking into if I only go to 3rd level as one?
Seems to me you will end up with a character who isn't very good at being a Paladin, and isn't very good a being a Psychic.
You will probably make your saving throws, although why anyone would bother to target you is the question.
Your martial abilities aren't adequate to your level nor is your casting so why should you?
Dipping Pladin into a non-caster could be very interesting however, especially if you pick up 4 levels of oatch of vengance paladin.
I like the sacred shield archetype for 2-3 level paladin dips. The single smite you get from vanilla pally mainly be used only for bypassing dr. Whereas the bastion of good ability retains the Cha to AC aspect, but instead halves damage from the target of the effect vs any of your allies within 10 ft (but not you).
Aren't psychics casters? Don't Eldritch Knights, Arcane Archers and Hellknight Signifiers run on this principle? I'm just skipping the prestige class stuff since there's no "psychic/warrior hybrid" prestige class like those two.
EKs are potentially good at higher level, but very difficult to get into. Requiring both full martial weapon proficiency and 3rd level spells means that you're either struggling with a handful of useless martial abilities until you get into the PrC or you're taking a hit to your casting progression and hitting the PrC late.
Signifier can be gotten into as a full cleric or at the cost of three feats (doable as your 1st, 3rd, and 5th) as a wizard and requires no dipping to do.These are things to consider when comparing to PrCs.
So, the real question at the end of the day; what are you trying to do with your Psychic/Paladin?
Are you trying to be an armored caster, still maintaining your psychic casting powerhouse?
Are you trying to be a martial warrior with a little bit of psychic abilities?
Or are you aiming for a middle ground; a holy warrior with some martial ability and some psychic discipline, but not particularly strong in either camp?
Knowing what you're looking to make in the end with help you figure out what to build in the first place.
Eldritch Knights and Arcane Archers are most typically focused on weapon damage. They use magic to augment their weapon attacks. Losing a couple points of BAB is easier to overcome for a martially focused character than losing caster levels is for a casting focused class. In addition, it is the prestige classes, where you can get good BAB and spellcasting levels that makes up for the cost of the dip.
Even then, it usually takes a pretty well designed build and plan to make an effective character.
Lets look at your character at level 6. Many consider this to be right in the sweet spot for the best gaming, when the characters start to have some great capabilities, but aren't going to be breaking the system. Quite a few campaigns don't make it much beyond this.
You will have a BAB of 4. The same as a 3/4 BAB class, but you don't have much in the way of quick boosts to that, outside your 1/d day smite. Spells might help though, so lets look there. At 6th level, when facing the big bad, you can pull out your best spell...oh, it is a 1st level spell. Not really too impressive. So you will fight almost as well as an core Rogue of your level, and cast like a 3rd level character.
Will it get better at later levels. A little. the martial side will actually become worse, but that probably isn't the focus anyway. As the caster levels pile up you will of course become a better caster, but you will always be at least a full level of spells behind where you would have been if you hadn't dipped. Even if the campaign goes to level 20, you won't get 9th level spells.
Is the build playable? Of course. You can have fun playing just about anything, and depending on the style of your group it might be a great character to play. The best numbers aren't always the best characters, and similar levels of optimization across a group tend to make for more enjoyable games.
If you think though this dip makes your character mechanically better though, you are incorrect.
|
|
Aren't psychics casters? Don't Eldritch Knights, Arcane Archers and Hellknight Signifiers run on this principle? I'm just skipping the prestige class stuff since there's no "psychic/warrior hybrid" prestige class like those two.EKs are potentially good at higher level, but very difficult to get into. Requiring both full martial weapon proficiency and 3rd level spells means that you're either struggling with a handful of useless martial abilities until you get into the PrC or you're taking a hit to your casting progression and hitting the PrC late.
Signifier can be gotten into as a full cleric or at the cost of three feats (doable as your 1st, 3rd, and 5th) as a wizard and requires no dipping to do.
These are things to consider when comparing to PrCs.So, the real question at the end of the day; what are you trying to do with your Psychic/Paladin?
Are you trying to be an armored caster, still maintaining your psychic casting powerhouse?
Are you trying to be a martial warrior with a little bit of psychic abilities?
Or are you aiming for a middle ground; a holy warrior with some martial ability and some psychic discipline, but not particularly strong in either camp?
Knowing what you're looking to make in the end with help you figure out what to build in the first place.
That's easy: I want the character to be an armored caster with saves through the roof, which the guide I was looking at says was the point of the multiclass.
It seems the OP wants a Psychic that is immune to fear so you can't have your spellcasting shut down, and has great saves and heavy armor.
a 3 level paladin dip does get him all that.
I'm not aware of anything else that does similarly in a faster time.
|
|
It seems the OP wants a Psychic that is immune to fear so you can't have your spellcasting shut down, and has great saves and heavy armor.
a 3 level paladin dip does get him all that.
I'm not aware of anything else that does similarly in a faster time.
EXACTLY! :)
What I was wondering is if playing around with different archetypes which don't touch Divine Grace or Aura of Courage would hurt the character, if the other stuff was just as essential, but it sounds like it isn't.
|
|
First off, I'm looking to play an android, not a half-orc. And second, psychic is the core part of the build, as psychics emerge from Numeria often, and the Faith discipline meshes with Iron Gods' primary theme of faith and science coming together to create something greater than the sum of its parts.
|
First off, I'm looking to play an android, not a half-orc. And second, psychic is the core part of the build, as psychics emerge from Numeria often, and the Faith discipline meshes with Iron Gods' primary theme of faith and science coming together to create something greater than the sum of its parts.
You will need to take the emotional feat to cast any psychic spell with an emotion component as an android.
|
|
First off, I'm looking to play an android, not a half-orc. And second, psychic is the core part of the build, as psychics emerge from Numeria often, and the Faith discipline meshes with Iron Gods' primary theme of faith and science coming together to create something greater than the sum of its parts.You will need to take the emotional feat to cast any psychic spell with an emotion component as an android.
Yup! That's the first feat on my list!
For Eldritch Knight, you don't even have to take a 1-level dip outside of your casting class anymore - VMC Battle Oracle, grab Skill at Arms at 3, and you're set.
Hellknight Signifer is designed for full casters and you don't lose a single level of casting.
Evangelist loses you a level of casting, but like Eldritch Knight, above, offers a suite of abilities that are worthy of the 1-level loss for certain characters.
Losing 3 levels of casting makes you a terribly bad caster, if that's your focus.
I second the advice to look at Mesmerist, or I'll add to look at Occultist. And, as mentioned, an android can't even be a psychic caster; and if you take the feat to be able to do so, then you also lose the racial immunity you're hoping to gain.
|
|
If this idea is so bad, then why'd the guide to the psychic I was looking at recommend the class combo in the first place? And no other race connects better to the plot of Iron Gods than the android. I mean, it's practically the only Adventure Path where you could get away with playing an android! What else would I play an android in? Jade Regent? Kingmaker?
You could always dip a single level of the Chevalier prestige class to get immunity to fear if it's that important.
You won't be able to do so until 12th but you lose less CL.
Alternatively Greater Heroism makes you immune but that's also late.
If this idea is so bad, then why'd the guide to the psychic I was looking at recommend the class combo in the first place? And no other race connects better to the plot of Iron Gods than the android. I mean, it's practically the only Adventure Path where you could get away with playing an android! What else would I play an android in? Jade Regent? Kingmaker?
Guides are, by and large, opinion pieces. Clearly many on the boards disagree with the guide's opinions. Also, the guide isn't working off the assumption that you're playing an Andriod, a race not particularly suited to the class (despite the misleading fluff in Occult Realms). Now, if you're married to this idea of an android Psychic/Paladin, go for it. If you'll have fun with it, it won't matter that it's not that good.
However, if you're trying to make an optimized (or even semi-optimized) character you might want to consider going a different route.
Which are you more married to? The Android? or the Psychic? As others have stated, the Psychic/Paladin combo could potentially work, but you're sacrificing an awful lot to make it work as an android.
|
|
That's the question: how "not that good" are we talking here? Are we talking "not as good as completely tricked-out-optimized" or "basically non-functional?" From what I'm seeing it at least can DO stuff to help the party, even if it doesn't reach the heights of a pure psychic, that I may be more dependent on the other party members but able to contribute. What I'm hearing here is that essentially Pathfinder will chew up and spit this concept out like a Dark Souls game, and that I'd effectively be dead weight a party'd be better off discarding. Why is caster level so important?
|
I easily see it as workable as casters in general are stupidly powerful so losing any amount of spells wont stop you from having the big player of "Spells".
I would likely specialize in ranged capability and whatnot with the Android chassis but other than that it should work fine.
Do you have a specific point buy or just a vague idea of this concept?
Where is this guide you're saying says to go paladin? Do you have a link to it?
That's the question: how "not that good" are we talking here? Are we talking "not as good as completely tricked-out-optimized" or "basically non-functional?" From what I'm seeing it at least can DO stuff to help the party, even if it doesn't reach the heights of a pure psychic, that I may be more dependent on the other party members but able to contribute. What I'm hearing here is that essentially Pathfinder will chew up and spit this concept out like a Dark Souls game, and that I'd effectively be dead weight a party'd be better off discarding. Why is caster level so important?
Here's why caster levels are important.
you're lv5, that means paladin 3 psychic 2. Listed in no particular order
1) You're casting lv1 spells as a lv 5 character. instead of lv2 almost lv3 spells.
2) To over come level appropriate spell resistance you're at a -3 from normal, and the meta feat adds 5, so -3 is kinda a big deal.
3) your spells wont last as long
4) your save DC's are lower since you don't have the higher spell levels
5) your concentration checks are at a -3, and feats give +4, so kinda losing out on almost a feat.
6) You're casting lv1 spells for 2 more levels. You'll be lv 7 when you finally get lv2 spells, a normal caster would be at 3rd almost 4th level spells.
7) you have less spells per day than a full level caster.
8) your spells are no longer an offensive threat. You can maybe use them to do some buff spells and other utility.
This definitely goes into the "so bad, you're sabotaging yourself and your party." Finding out this is for Iron Gods only makes this even worse.
Let's break this down.
You want to play a race/class combo that:
* Requires burning a feat to lose a racial bonus because the race/class is incompatible
* Has a racial stat penalty that directly penalizes one of the classes you want to take, specifically one of the bonuses you're hoping to gain from the class
* Puts you three levels behind in casting, which it sounds like you want to be your focus, putting you two tiers behind in spells (2nd level spells at level 7 compared to a wizard with 4th, 3rd at 9 compared to a wizard with 5th, etc)
* In an adventure path that you know will feature enemies immune to your spellcasting, because it's mind-affecting, and the AP is full of robots
As Alex Mack suggested, if you're planning to dip Paladin for 3 levels you should probably go on ahead to 4th and take Oath of Vengeance. Get yourself a Silver Smite Bracelet and soon you'll be smiting every Evil foe in sight. Unless your DM avoids using Evil foes this is a great power since it boosts your attacks, AC, and damage. That damage boost could also help out some of your spells (say Force Punch - BAM!)
The particular combination you're trying seems like it might not fit together very well though. I wonder why you want to be a Psychic instead of maybe a Sorcerer who has spell casting based on Charisma, the stat which would maximize your benefit from those Paladin levels.
|
|
Because Iron Gods explores the ideas of faith and science working together instead of in opposition to create something more powerful than the sum of their parts, and I want to play a character who explores that, but isn't tied down to a specific deity the way clerics are...
So the requirements are, more or less:
Android race (+2 dex +2 int -2 cha, must spend a feat to use psychic casting)
Game mechanic benefits from faith & no loss of those benefits from changing faith
If a psychic caster, immunity (or strong resistance?) to fear
Gish type character
(Assumed) Paizo material only, no 3rd party
Do I have that right? Because that particular list is telling me to find a way to graft some divine stuff on to a magus. A bonus to dex is not what you especially want on a heavy armor user, the paladin saves bonus really doesn't want a racial penalty especially if cha's likely to be your 3rd best stat and losing a feat (and a handy racial feature) first up hurts too.
I may be mistaken, but doesn't the *event that you have in the spoiler* happens at the exact end of the AP? Switching gods after that would bring you no disadvantage, as it'll happen after the AP has ended. Why not just be a Cleric of Brigh or some such?
Alternatively, bite the Cha penalty and make and Oracle of an appropriate mystery. Metal, perhaps? I think Kobold press did a Clockwork mystery, too.
You could always make a spiritualist if you're tied to the idea of exploring faith you can make him a religious man who was haunted by whatever you want to fluff the Phantom as whatever. Plenty of story fluff their, ghost in the system type thing? A character that was once human and was turned in a robot like the Cyber men in doctor who, haunted by the man you once were.
You'll end up with stronger Melee than your build and you're casting though eventually worse will be stronger for a long time because in your build you'll be catching up with the levels you lost to a paladin for a long time.
At level 6 you'd have 4 BAB (same as your build) and you'll probably have 4 level 2 spells as opposed to none, and you'll be on the cusp of level 3 spells next level. :)
As for the fear thing, you won't be immune to it but Spiritualists are very very good at shunting around mental effects and can have some pretty crazy saves.
What about an Android Monk? Can be Lawful Good, not tied to any particular deity, plenty of mind-over-matter flavored abilities that can be picked up, and already has a bit of divine flavor. Your resistance to mind-affecting would also buff up the Unchained Monk's lousy will save.
It's also important to remember that "Priest" doesn't mean "Divine Caster", it doesn't even have to mean "Caster".
|
|
It's tempting. I kinda really wanted the heavy armor, though, since that Smart Armor looks so cool. That was kind of the point of the paladin levels apart from Aura of Courage and Divine Grace: proficiency in heavy armor and martial weapons so I could look more like Optimus Prime! Paladin might be okay on its own (yeah the Charisma hit hurts, but I can work with that, and I've done it before). I just thought psychic'd be thematic what with those Psi-Tech things and how Occult Realms mentions that Numeria's weird radiation and fluids produces an above-average amount of psychics...
I hear ya. Sadly, that bit of fluff seems to forget that most androids can't even use psychic magic (without a lot of work to develop emotions.) Other heavy armor options you could try are the Warpriest or Gun Tank gunslinger archetype. The Gun Tank has the bonus of letting you easily use those high-tech energy weapons.
There is one Oracle Revelation that gives you proficiency with martial weapons and heavy armor, so VMC Oracle could be totally a thing for your character concept.
The whole "who the heck is giving me divine powers" might also help flavor-wise.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you're an Android, then you already have bizarre powers granted by technology. If you're playing a Paladin or other heavily armored class already, VMCing into Sorcerer could let you pick up the Nanite bloodline.
