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What's funny is a Cha caster with an Int and Wis of 7. Oh, the hijinks.
The concept does break down a bit when you min/max the 2 ability scores.... but in principal the idea is sound.
The 2 best examples I can think of:
1) Jesus - divinely wise but as far as we understand not academically trained at all
2) Sheldon Cooper - incredibly smart but very much lacking in WIS due to his complete incomprehension of the true nature of the world and people around him... although this is improving as the Seasons go by... ;))
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1) Jesus - divinely wise but as far as we understand not academically trained at all
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Your base ability scores are totally independent of academic training.
Also, while I haven't read the bible in ages, I don't remember Jesus being of particularly questionable intelligence. His wisdom was probably high, but I can't think of any particularly useful indicators of his intelligence.
One of the classic descriptions, which may have originated with Gygax himself, is that a person may well have the intelligence to know that smoking is bad for him, but lack the wisdom to stop.
Intelligence does not refer only to formal education (pace Harleequin), but it does generally refer to factual knowledge and quickness of formal reasoning/puzzle solving. Wisdom refers to things like common sense, determination, and strength of will.
And the smart-but-unwise person is a classic trope. Think, for example, of your favorite "mad scientist" character, ranging from Back to the Future's Doc Brown for a kindly version, to the classic cinematic Victor Frankenstein. You can also look for examples of the "nutty" or "absent-minded" "professor," starting with the eponymous film -- I'm fond of Reg from Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency.
The wise-but-not-intelligent person is another classic trope, and you can start with Forrest Gump for an example. Detectives Miss Jane Marple or Father Brown solve mysteries based on their ability to understand how people think, react, and behave, not based on Sherlockian analysis of thirty-five kinds of cigarette ash. Samwise or Meriadoc from Lord of the Rings probably qualify, too -- Frodo is the "smart" one, but Sam and Merry are the ones who are actually useful in a crisis, because while they may not speak Elvish, they have enough "plain hobbit sense" to figure out what needs doing and do it.
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Further to previous -- another good example of high wisdom, low intelligence, would be Vinny, from My Cousin Vinny. He's clearly set up as not very bright--- for example, he failed the bar exam to become a lawyer six times, and he's something of a jerk (so low charisma). On the other hand, he's also impossible to hustle, has an incredible ability to see what's important in a scene (unlike his high intelligence, low wisdom girlfriend), and can read people instantly, which makes him a very effective person at cross-examination.
And it's a good film to boot. "Four stars, would watch again." And, indeed, I have.
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Becoming a jerk is not a low charisma.
But chaotic.
I disagree. Being a jerk means that people react negatively to you, i.e. low charisma. A charismatic rogue could charm you into not following the rules ("Well,... I don't think we should do this one by the book, 'cause, you know, they've read the book, too!") A low charisma bureaucrat would insist on following the rules in a very annoying way (we've all dealt with that person at the DMV).
And a high-charisma bureaucrat would convince you that following the rules is what you wanted to do anyway.
Vinny isn't particularly chaotic, just stupid -- he doesn't actually know courtroom procedure. He's happy to follow the rules once he knows what they are, but even when he tries, he still manages to tick people off. Which, again, means low charisma.
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I like the tomato illustration. Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, not a vegetable. In fact, a tomato is a berry. Wisdom is not putting tomatoes in a fruit smoothie.
Charisma is the ability to sell the tomato smoothie that your friend with high intelligence and low wisdom made.
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I like the tomato illustration. Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, not a vegetable. In fact, a tomato is a berry. Wisdom is not putting tomatoes in a fruit smoothie.
Charisma is the ability to sell the tomato smoothie that your friend with high intelligence and low wisdom made.
(And specifically, that tomato smoothie is called "gazpacho.")
Five stars, would make again.
About 2 pounds ripe red tomatoes, cored and roughly cut into chunks
1 Italian frying (cubanelle) pepper or another long, light green pepper, such as Anaheim, cored, seeded and roughly cut into chunks
1 cucumber, about 8 inches long, peeled and roughly cut into chunks
1 small mild onion (white or red), peeled and roughly cut into chunks
1 clove garlic
2 teaspoons sherry vinegar, more to taste
Salt
½ cup extra-virgin olive oil, more to taste, plus more for drizzling
Combine tomatoes, pepper, cucumber, onion and garlic in a blender or, if using a hand blender, in a deep bowl. (If necessary, work in batches.) Blend at high speed until very smooth, at least 2 minutes, pausing occasionally to scrape down the sides with a rubber spatula.
With the motor running, add the vinegar and 2 teaspoons salt. Slowly drizzle in the olive oil. The mixture will turn bright orange or dark pink and become smooth and emulsified, like a salad dressing. If it still seems watery, drizzle in more olive oil until texture is creamy.
Strain the mixture through a strainer or a food mill, pushing all the liquid through with a spatula or the back of a ladle. Discard the solids. Transfer to a large pitcher (preferably glass) and chill until very cold, at least 6 hours or overnight.
Before serving, adjust the seasonings with salt and vinegar. If soup is very thick, stir in a few tablespoons ice water. Serve in glasses, over ice if desired. A few drops of olive oil on top are a nice touch.
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Perhaps we should shy away from referencing real-world religious figures when talking about game mechanics.
Just sayin'.
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Perhaps we should shy away from referencing real-world religious figures when talking about game mechanics.
Just sayin'.
This game is thoroughly riddled with mythology: titans, angels, elves, gods, etc. I don't see why references to this particular mythological being should be different from those to any other. Would you have the same concerns about other demi-gods like Hercules or Perseus?
Just sayin'.
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I consider myself to have a high intelligence based on my IQ score that has consistently been around the 145 mark but a low wisdom, as demonstrated by this post bragging about my high intelligence to a bunch of strangers. It also suggests a low charisma score.
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you can have a bonus +2 charisma for being funny.
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I don't consider being disliked a low charisma trait. A low charisma is instead represented by being ignored.
Comparing scores to real world examples is difficult because you don't know how much "skill" they have invested in things you often associate with those skills. If someone gets good grades in school is it because they are actually more intelligent or do they simply study a lot more than most. Is someone good at sense motive because they have a high wisdom or because they have studied tells and facial reactions?
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Perhaps we should shy away from referencing real-world religious figures when talking about game mechanics.
Just sayin'.
This game is thoroughly riddled with mythology: titans, angels, elves, gods, etc. I don't see why references to this particular mythological being should be different from those to any other. Would you have the same concerns about other demi-gods like Hercules or Perseus?
Just sayin'.
Possibly because for some of the people dwelling here what you reference as "mythological beings" are real figures and they might be offended by your comparisons?
Btw I believe your comment could possibly be a good example of int vs wis...
1) Jesus - divinely wise but as far as we understand not academically trained at all
It is true that Jesus was divinely wise. Jesus was a carpenter though. Carpentry uses a variety of math skills including algebra and geometry. He may have even used trigonometric functions since they were first used ~150 years before Jesus was born.
Whether or not having a low cha makes you obnoxious or not depends on in my opinion your wisdom score. Witch a high wisdom score you are aware of your social deficiency and can take steps to mitigate it. With 7 in both cha and wis well... you impose yourself on people being as obnoxious as possible in an effort to make people like you as you can think of no other method. I've met someone like this. With scores likely lower than 7 (mentally challenged I think).
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High intelligence and low wisdom also fits a lot of trickster characters. Lots of ideas that are clever but foolish, requiring a lot of work to deal with the consequences. It can also be the inventor who goes penniless after a businessman got all the rights out from under them.
High wisdom with low intelligence is discernment without technical expertise. They may not be able to solve something themselves, but rather guide somebody else to the answer. Wisdom is something of a defensive stat, so they don't mess up a lot, but they lack the smarts to come up with the sort of clever ideas for sudden advances either. "Slow and steady wins the race" in general.
I always interpreted high wisdom means that you are not a fool. So if someone had a high inteligence and a low wisdom, like 5 or 7 then they could be prone to drinking themselves to a stupor. Or fooling around with too much women and getting bastard children they can't deal with. Or pick pocketing, ect ect.
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I like the tomato illustration. Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, not a vegetable. In fact, a tomato is a berry. Wisdom is not putting tomatoes in a fruit smoothie.
Charisma is the ability to sell the tomato smoothie that your friend with high intelligence and low wisdom made.
(And specifically, that tomato smoothie is called "gazpacho.")
** spoiler omitted **
Sounds wonderful, better than any of the gazpacho examples I have actually had the opportunity to try.
Short of that, supermarkets commonly sell some pretty good quasi-smoothies (too liquid to be true smoothies) that have tomatoes as a major ingredient. V8 is the most famous brand in the USA (not sure about elsewhere), but it has a decent amount of competition, so whoever came up with the idea of putting tomatoes in a smoothie wasn't so foolish after all.
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Perhaps we should shy away from referencing real-world religious figures when talking about game mechanics.
Just sayin'.
This game is thoroughly riddled with mythology: titans, angels, elves, gods, etc. I don't see why references to this particular mythological being should be different from those to any other. Would you have the same concerns about other demi-gods like Hercules or Perseus?
Just sayin'.
Possibly because for some of the people dwelling here what you reference as "mythological beings" are real figures and they might be offended by your comparisons?
Btw I believe your comment could possibly be a good example of int vs wis...
Treating all the religions alike is the best way to handle this.
Pathfinder takes elemets from christian, persian, greek, hindu,shinto and many other mythologies.You shouldn't treat one different than the other, just because it's your preferred faith, or if you believe it's the preferred faith of other visitors.
If you believe in one religion all the other are just myths.
So, for a person believing in the aesir, both Christian and Greek mythology is just that: Mythology.
Back to the original topic:
Int helps you to learn and remember. That's why skill points depend on int (that's the learning part=. And why knowledge is int based (that's the remember part).
Wis helps you to see the current state of things, make immediate connections between stuff. WIS is the connection from the World to you. How you percieve things. How you catalogue and register stuff.
Cha is the connection from you to the world. How you communicate stuff.
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Charisma is more PRESENCE. A perfectly nice wallflower of a person that lets others walk all over them can be low charisma. A jerk who is a jerk but fails to make an impression on people nonetheless also has low charisma. A high charisma jerk could inspire people to hate him. A low charisma jerk would tend to get a 'yeah, whatever.'
Not.... quite. Charisma is the ability TO GET WHAT YOU WANT using your presence. For example, if you are trying to get a good deal on a piece of merchandise, a high charisma jerk might manage to find a way to make himself disliked IN A WAY THAT CAUSES THE CLERK TO LOWER THE PRICE TO GET RID OF HIM. But that doesn't mean that merely being a noticeable and memorable jerk is a mark of a high charisma. If being a jerk gets you into trouble (instead of getting what you want), then that's a mark, not of a high, but of a low charisma.
That's actually implicit in the various skill rules; missing a Diplomacy roll by 5 or more, for example, will cause someone's attitude to you to be "decreased (emphasis mine) by one step." So a person with low charisma takes penalties, making it more likely that he will cause people to react negatively to him, while a person with high charisma gets bonuses which makes it both more likely that he succeeds and less likely that he actively fails.
Basically, when people react negatively to you and you get in trouble for it, that's a sign of a low charisma, not a high charisma. People with high charisma tend to get what they want in social situations..... which definitely (getting back to my example) doesn't describe Vinny and courtroom procedures. He's pissing off the judge enough that he gets thrown in jail himself..... in what sense could that possibly be high charisma?
I as well like divorcing Charisma from appearance. Wouldn't someone with Str 19, Con 16, and Dex 14 LOOK fit? But that Cha 8 means she's not quite as assertive. (In this case, I've decided it's more that teens/twenties age sorting out what you want to do in the world, and try to play that through her mannerisms--mixed, not quite one thing or the other.)
As far as Int and Wis, yes, I see the separation there. Would Rocky Balboa be another good example of low Int and high(ish) Wis? No-one is going to expect him to outsmart a guy, but he's probably packing a decent Will save there. (And Con of 20 or so, but that's another debate.)
Oddly, I'd say Charisma would be something that gets others to react the way you want them to. Naturally, the skills help -- my barbarian might pick up Diplomacy, or Perform, and show off better. Enough skill ranks and despite her usual out-of-ring demeanor she could have crowds eating out of her hands as she decks someone with her latest invention, a chair made out of metal that one can fold into a flat shape. (And this includes cheering AND booing her.)
Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in your fruit salad. Charisma is selling a tomato based fruit salad. Strength is squishing a tomato with your bare hand. Dexterity is dodging the tomato that gets thrown at you. Constitution is eating a rotten tomato and not getting sick.
Who says anything is wrong with tomatoes in fruit salad? Should work just fine with the right kind of tomatoes (admittedly NOT the ones you usually find in the regular produce section of a supermarket -- on the other hand, it's starting to get really hit-or-miss to find suitable oranges as well).
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Can I just toss this wrench into the mix? Empiricist Investigator with Student of Philosophy... And has High INT, low WIS and CHA. Uses INT for Sense Motive, Perception, Disable Device, Use Magic Device, Diplomacy, and Bluff (except to Feint).
I feel like Sherlock Holmes would fit this more or less, since he is able to apply his incredible intelligence to his observation, reading people, getting what he wants, etc. But by all accounts he still clearly lacks basic sense and his social skills are generally appalling.
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1) Jesus - divinely wise but as far as we understand not academically trained at all
...Your base ability scores are totally independent of academic training.
Also, while I haven't read the bible in ages, I don't remember Jesus being of particularly questionable intelligence. His wisdom was probably high, but I can't think of any particularly useful indicators of his intelligence.
You obviously forgot the passage where he out lectures his teachers.
Also remember that in many cultures wisdom and intelligence seem to be mostly the same thing. For example, most of the examples of Solomon's wisdom are actually intelligence. Like speaking the language of bees.
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Also remember that in many cultures wisdom and intelligence seem to be mostly the same thing. For example, most of the examples of Solomon's wisdom are actually intelligence. Like speaking the language of bees.
And the end of Solomon's reign is marked by a staggering lack of wisdom that ultimately sunders his kingdom, because he pissed off God that much. (Keep in mind, though that the God of the Old Testament is easily pissed off, and very big on punishment out of proportion to the offense.)
And the end of Solomon's reign is marked by a staggering lack of wisdom that ultimately sunders his kingdom
But it makes pretty good sense if you replace all instances of "wisdom" with "intellect" or "knowledge". So, maybe it's a translation issue, and "wisdom" didn't mean what we mean when we say wisdom.
You have to consider that these stories would only be told in hindsight. Which means that even in hindsight, the people telling these stories considered Solomon "wise". That only makes sense if they use a different meaning of "wisdom" than we do.
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Perhaps we should shy away from referencing real-world religious figures when talking about game mechanics.
Just sayin'.
This game is thoroughly riddled with mythology: titans, angels, elves, gods, etc. I don't see why references to this particular mythological being should be different from those to any other. Would you have the same concerns about other demi-gods like Hercules or Perseus?
Just sayin'.
I wasn't aware that roughly half the world's population consider Hercules and Perseus to have religious import.