Int and wisdom


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Melkiador wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
And the end of Solomon's reign is marked by a staggering lack of wisdom that ultimately sunders his kingdom

But it makes pretty good sense if you replace all instances of "wisdom" with "intellect" or "knowledge". So, maybe it's a translation issue, and "wisdom" didn't mean what we mean when we say wisdom.

You have to consider that these stories would only be told in hindsight. Which means that even in hindsight, the people telling these stories considered Solomon "wise". That only makes sense if they use a different meaning of "wisdom" than we do.

Perhaps. then again it's very important to realize that we use Intellect and Wisdom as wargaming constructs, not to any claim of simulating reality. Nor is the game intended to be a literary vehicle. Int and Wisdom are fine as they are for the purposes the game uses them, that's all that matters.

In the end, Pathfinder arose from a wargame which had roleplaying bolted onto it. Any attempt to make it a reality simulation game is doomed from the outset.

Liberty's Edge

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
In the end, Pathfinder arose from a wargame which had roleplaying bolted onto it. Any attempt to make it a reality simulation game is doomed from the outset.

I disagree almost entirely. Pathfinder can be made to reflect reality to a reasonable degree so long as an entire table is on the same page regarding HOW it reflects reality, there are plenty of houserules that can improved this. As well good roleplaying by players and GM, and good storytelling can really enhance the effect.

It's only doomed if you won't agree to run with what the rest of the table agrees on, or you run afoul of the nirvana fallacy where anything short of "perfection" isn't worth pursuing.


Melkiador wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
And the end of Solomon's reign is marked by a staggering lack of wisdom that ultimately sunders his kingdom
But it makes pretty good sense if you replace all instances of "wisdom" with "intellect" or "knowledge". So, maybe it's a translation issue, and "wisdom" didn't mean what we mean when we say wisdom.

Gaming is the only context I know of where wisdom is defined as common sense, willpower, intuition, and such. In every other context that I know of, wisdom is a synonym for knowledge, skill, savvy, etc.. Basically, a combination of stuff we call Int, skills, and certain feats in rpgs.

So...yeah. Best not to equate literary, mythological, or historical wisdom with rpg wisdom. :)


Analytical vs intuitive?

No matter what how we define the two ability scores, some will dissent. Is knowing that intelligence or wisdom? Hmm.


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MeanMutton wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Haladir wrote:

Perhaps we should shy away from referencing real-world religious figures when talking about game mechanics.

Just sayin'.

This game is thoroughly riddled with mythology: titans, angels, elves, gods, etc. I don't see why references to this particular mythological being should be different from those to any other. Would you have the same concerns about other demi-gods like Hercules or Perseus?

Just sayin'.

I wasn't aware that roughly half the world's population consider Hercules and Perseus to have religious import.

Were you aware that the ancestors of the current religious majorities politicked, tyrannized, conquered, and murdered the former religious majorities out of existence?

I like to think that the merits of treating religious belief as what it is outweighs the merits of treating it as a popularity contest.

Sovereign Court

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Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
And the end of Solomon's reign is marked by a staggering lack of wisdom that ultimately sunders his kingdom
But it makes pretty good sense if you replace all instances of "wisdom" with "intellect" or "knowledge". So, maybe it's a translation issue, and "wisdom" didn't mean what we mean when we say wisdom.

Gaming is the only context I know of where wisdom is defined as common sense, willpower, intuition, and such. In every other context that I know of, wisdom is a synonym for knowledge, skill, savvy, etc.. Basically, a combination of stuff we call Int, skills, and certain feats in rpgs.

So...yeah. Best not to equate literary, mythological, or historical wisdom with rpg wisdom. :)

Yes - I think that D&D basically redefined 'wisdom' for the sake of a having a 1 word description of a game mechanic. Not the first time that I wish Gygax had had a better thesaurus.

Like with level vs level


Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
And the end of Solomon's reign is marked by a staggering lack of wisdom that ultimately sunders his kingdom
But it makes pretty good sense if you replace all instances of "wisdom" with "intellect" or "knowledge". So, maybe it's a translation issue, and "wisdom" didn't mean what we mean when we say wisdom.
Gaming is the only context I know of where wisdom is defined as common sense, willpower, intuition, and such.

Nestor the wise vs. wily Odysseus?

Silver Crusade

Orfamay Quest wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
And the end of Solomon's reign is marked by a staggering lack of wisdom that ultimately sunders his kingdom
But it makes pretty good sense if you replace all instances of "wisdom" with "intellect" or "knowledge". So, maybe it's a translation issue, and "wisdom" didn't mean what we mean when we say wisdom.
Gaming is the only context I know of where wisdom is defined as common sense, willpower, intuition, and such.
Nestor the wise vs. wily Odysseus?

Because Odysseus CLEARLY used wisdom as a dump stat. Do not EVER taunt the son of the god who rules the domain you're currently crossing, that you just put his eye out. Reasonably high intelligence, wisdom as far below sea level as Louisiana.

Sovereign Court

I just don't think that Homer worried too much about characters acting consistently. They pretty much just did whatever Homer wanted them to do in order to advance the plot to show off more weird mythology to fight.


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Val'bryn2 wrote:
Because Odysseus CLEARLY used wisdom as a dump stat. Do not EVER taunt the son of the god who rules the domain you're currently crossing, that you just put his eye out. Reasonably high intelligence, wisdom as far below sea level as Louisiana.

You know who Polyphemus hates more than Odysseus?

Spoiler:
Nobody


Veilgn wrote:
Kinda funny that smart people could unwise.

Know too many cases in real life to find anything odd about it.


Kazaan wrote:
Val'bryn2 wrote:
Because Odysseus CLEARLY used wisdom as a dump stat. Do not EVER taunt the son of the god who rules the domain you're currently crossing, that you just put his eye out. Reasonably high intelligence, wisdom as far below sea level as Louisiana.

You know who Polyphemus hates more than Odysseus?

** spoiler omitted **

This is possibly the best Greek myth joke I've ever heard


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
I just don't think that Homer worried too much about characters acting consistently. They pretty much just did whatever Homer wanted them to do in order to advance the plot to show off more weird mythology to fight.

Isn't it generally believed that the Odyssey is based on an earlier oral tradition, and Homer just repackaged it and wrote it down. It therefore seems likely that inconsistent characterizations could be from multiple "authors".


Melkiador wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
I just don't think that Homer worried too much about characters acting consistently. They pretty much just did whatever Homer wanted them to do in order to advance the plot to show off more weird mythology to fight.
Isn't it generally believed that the Odyssey is based on an earlier oral tradition, and Homer just repackaged it and wrote it down. It therefore seems likely that inconsistent characterizations could be from multiple "authors".

He then repackaged Odysseus as having been a Trojan at birth.


Snowblind wrote:
Harleequin wrote:

...

1) Jesus - divinely wise but as far as we understand not academically trained at all
...

Your base ability scores are totally independent of academic training.

Also, while I haven't read the bible in ages, I don't remember Jesus being of particularly questionable intelligence. His wisdom was probably high, but I can't think of any particularly useful indicators of his intelligence.

Also, he was Jewish. They had the most universal and academic religious teaching in the classical world. To be recognized as a rabbi as he was even at the beginning of his ministry indicates way more book learning than most people of the time could hope to aspire to. It's not the most useful education for things other than religious debates, but then neither was a classical Greek education. The two are roughly comparable.


Looking for pants that increase Int.


Veilgn wrote:
Looking for pants that increase Int.

Pants are an invalid magic item slot. No magic pants. You're stuck with dresses, I guess.


Gobar the half-orc tailor is a standard NPC in games I run and offers magic cargo pants which work like the side pockets of a handy haversack. He hasn't produced any "smarty pants" yet and isn't quite sure which mental stat they should increase anyhow. Maybe a "smart aleck" would get +2 Int but -2 Cha?


hasteroth wrote:

I disagree almost entirely. Pathfinder can be made to reflect reality to a reasonable degree so long as an entire table is on the same page regarding HOW it reflects reality, there are plenty of houserules that can improved this. As well good roleplaying by players and GM, and good storytelling can really enhance the effect.

It's only doomed if you won't agree to run with what the rest of the table agrees on, or you run afoul of the nirvana fallacy where anything short of "perfection" isn't worth pursuing.

I don't see how anything with magic or powers of any sort could in any way, shape, or form reflect reality in any reasonable way whatsoever. Now, of course, you could get rid of all that and just focus on fighters and rogues and similar, even getting rid of things in classes like the cavalier or ranger that won't specifically match anything that can actually be done in reality, but by that time I think you'd be better off either using an entirely different system or LARPing.

As for the mental stats:

Intelligence: The more intelligent you are, the easier it is to understand theories and formulas. This does not translate into practical experience, however. You know, in theory how something ought to work, but you've never actually done it. On the other hand, you know enough about something to generally give you a good idea what it's worth, how to do it, or about it in a general way. [Appraise, Craft, Knowledge Skills, Linguistics, Spellcraft]

Wisdom: The wiser you are, the easier it is to understand the consequences of your actions and the actions of others. This does not translate into scholarly experience, however. You, from practice know how things (or people) work, what to look for, or what to do. [Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Survival]

Charisma: The more charismatic you are, the stronger the strength of your personality. You know how to get people or animals (or items, occasionally) to do what you want or to otherwise impress them or fool them. [Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, Use Magic Device]


Devilkiller wrote:
Gobar the half-orc tailor is a standard NPC in games I run and offers magic cargo pants which work like the side pockets of a handy haversack. He hasn't produced any "smarty pants" yet and isn't quite sure which mental stat they should increase anyhow. Maybe a "smart aleck" would get +2 Int but -2 Cha?

Could be worse. When I saw 'smarty pants' I was thinking of a cursed item enchanted by a young wizard with a powerful Sympathy spell focused on her own race, requiring a demigoddess's touch to dispel.


Qaianna wrote:
Veilgn wrote:
Looking for pants that increase Int.
Pants are an invalid magic item slot. No magic pants. You're stuck with dresses, I guess.

Of course they exist.

Only smart people can see it.

(Geez why people didnt see the joke).

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