Magical Child spellcasting? Why the Summoner class?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

1 to 50 of 54 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

So, having watched Sailor Moon a few times with my GF (who is an avid fan of the show) and also watched a few other magical girl animes I seem to get the feeling that most of the abilities these magical children use are elemental based attacks.

Yet the magical child archetype utilizes the Summoner's spellcasting list? I'm all down for the archetype casting arcane spells like a Sorcerer (aka without preparation) but shouldn't the archetype utilize spells up to 6th level via the Sorcerer / Wizard spell list instead?

Any thoughts on this?


That's what the Warlock does. They don't want two archetypes that are so similar.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Actually it is the unchained summoner's spell list, wich is worse.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It would probably have been better to give the Magical Child Kineticist powers. The Summoner's list works on the assumption you're commanding a d12 HD monster. The magical child has a familiar, which does not exactly an eidolon make.

The Bard list would be great for a magical girl too. Maybe we'll get a retooled magical girl archetype in a player companion. "Musical Hero" or something.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The bard list would have been awesome...actually the ability to choose wich spell list you get during character creation would have been best.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The spell list is a problem, but honestly, what really kills Magical Child is the lack of unique talents. It effectively loses access to around 10 talents each version of the base Vig has baked in, while not getting anything in return. That plus half its talents being traded fro one of the worst 3/4 caster spell lists and a familiar+ really makes it underwhelm.


I really feel like it might have been better to have the magical girl transformation sequence be a talent or a feat rather than an archetype, since there's a lot of different ways to play a magical girl/henshin hero.

Really, with a magical transformation talent I'd probably be using Avenger or Warlock 90% of the time if I wanted to imitate most magical girls or sentai characters.

Still, I do think there's something to be said for the bard list. It'd have fit the concept a lot better than the Summoner's, magical girls that actually ARE spellcasters rather than weapon-users/martial artists (Avenger has this covered) tend to either

A.) Be blaster-casters (Warlock has this covered)

or

B.) Tend to have magic based in healing, emotion, and illusions.

The summoner list doesn't really cover how most spell-casting magical girls that aren't blaster casters tend to go about it. The bard's does.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The real question about magical girls, is how do I get a human being who is adept at every weapon that exists to be my familiar and how do I use null magic as my only source of magic.

I think to handle Louise a Kineticist would have been MUCH better, with an eidolon instead of a familiar, that would work for the entire Familiar of Zero world


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Brew Bird wrote:
It would probably have been better to give the Magical Child Kineticist powers.

YES...YES THIS...YES SO VERY MUCH THIS! SOMEONE PLEASE FIND A WAY TO WORD THIS RULES WISE CORRECTLY SO WE CAN ALL DO IT! :D


Dot.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I agree kineticist powers would have been a great option as well.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Am I the only one who's thought immediately went to Heman and Battle Cat with this one?


Oxylepy wrote:

The real question about magical girls, is how do I get a human being who is adept at every weapon that exists to be my familiar and how do I use null magic as my only source of magic.

I think to handle Louise a Kineticist would have been MUCH better, with an eidolon instead of a familiar, that would work for the entire Familiar of Zero world

You use the noble scion prestige class and have a fighter cohort of the same level as you, he's proficient with every martial weapon, you can cast bestow weapon proficiency on him for anything exotic, that's not on the unchained summoner list, but you get the transformation sequence at level 1, so you can just play another class that sucks less, you're multiclassing into noble scion anyway so your spellcasting is going to suck no matter what.

The Exchange

I think the problem is more that Paizo aren't always very good at naming archetypes. Now, I'm pretty sure I couldn't do any better, and I comprehend that after the first few dozen archetypes names that are both evocative and relevant to the mechanics of the archetype start to be difficult to come by, but the 'Magical Child' seems to fall into this category. For example, nothing in the archetype states you have to be a child, and the talk of 'capricious whimsy' and 'wonder' in the fluff text has no backing at all in the mechanics (by your spell list you're specializing in acid-based damage... which could be 'creepy as Hell' if inflicted by a grinning kawaii sailor senshi type... but hardly 'whimsical'...) but 'Familiar-based caster vigilante' or something just sounds a little boring...

... the big question is whether or not your character is nude during their transformation sequence (which could be less than titillating if your 'magical child' is actually a pot-bellied old man...). ;)


ProfPotts wrote:

I think the problem is more that Paizo aren't always very good at naming archetypes. Now, I'm pretty sure I couldn't do any better, and I comprehend that after the first few dozen archetypes names that are both evocative and relevant to the mechanics of the archetype start to be difficult to come by, but the 'Magical Child' seems to fall into this category. For example, nothing in the archetype states you have to be a child, and the talk of 'capricious whimsy' and 'wonder' in the fluff text has no backing at all in the mechanics (by your spell list you're specializing in acid-based damage... which could be 'creepy as Hell' if inflicted by a grinning kawaii sailor senshi type... but hardly 'whimsical'...) but 'Familiar-based caster vigilante' or something just sounds a little boring...

... the big question is whether or not your character is nude during their transformation sequence (which could be less than titillating if your 'magical child' is actually a pot-bellied old man...). ;)

It's a charisma focused class, so if charisma affects how you look it might not be so bad.


Dragon78 wrote:
I agree kineticist powers would have been a great option as well.

I contacted the guy who runs "Archives of Nethys" about rewriting the Archetype to do something like this. Hopefully he has the time and will be willing to do it sometime this year for a reasonable price. :D


Endency wrote:
Am I the only one who's thought immediately went to Heman and Battle Cat with this one?

I certainly hope so. :P


And there's the fact a book of houserules(Unchained) isn't houserules anymore...

Liberty's Edge

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

I really feel like it might have been better to have the magical girl transformation sequence be a talent or a feat rather than an archetype, since there's a lot of different ways to play a magical girl/henshin hero.

Really, with a magical transformation talent I'd probably be using Avenger or Warlock 90% of the time if I wanted to imitate most magical girls or sentai characters.

Still, I do think there's something to be said for the bard list. It'd have fit the concept a lot better than the Summoner's, magical girls that actually ARE spellcasters rather than weapon-users/martial artists (Avenger has this covered) tend to either

A.) Be blaster-casters (Warlock has this covered)

or

B.) Tend to have magic based in healing, emotion, and illusions.

The summoner list doesn't really cover how most spell-casting magical girls that aren't blaster casters tend to go about it. The bard's does.

Yeah, just take a warlock and get fast transformation so you can pretend you are a magical child.


Endency wrote:
Am I the only one who's thought immediately went to Heman and Battle Cat with this one?

A lot more of us went to Final Fantasy with all those summoning magical girl characters.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Magical Child only have few superficial trappings of Magical Girls. If they lost the transformation sequence, they'd never be associated to that kind of character.
The Archetype is built around its familiar, perhaps because whoever wrote it heard that Magical Girls have cute little pets following them around, and uses a spell list made to enhance that particular feature.

It's an unfortunate choice, that has nothing to do with any Magical Girl I've ever heard about. Magical Girls don't fight with pets. They blast the heck out of things and in some cases, punch bad guys in the face. Even Card Captor Sakura, the closest to the Magical Child Archetype, is closer to a Wizard with one or two Eidolon(s) than to Magical Child.


Cruel Illusion wrote:

Magical Child only have few superficial trappings of Magical Girls. If they lost the transformation sequence, they'd never be associated to that kind of character.

The Archetype is built around its familiar, perhaps because whoever wrote it heard that Magical Girls have cute little pets following them around, and uses a spell list made to enhance that particular feature.

It's an unfortunate choice, that has nothing to do with any Magical Girl I've ever heard about. Magical Girls don't fight with pets. They blast the heck out of things and in some cases, punch bad guys in the face. Even Card Captor Sakura, the closest to the Magical Child Archetype, is closer to a Wizard with one or two Eidolon(s) than to Magical Child.

Archetypes still need to be fitted to existing classes. Pathfinder's wargaming methodology isn't really fitted well to the freeform themes of Anime. That's more BESM territory.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Cruel Illusion wrote:

Magical Child only have few superficial trappings of Magical Girls. If they lost the transformation sequence, they'd never be associated to that kind of character.

The Archetype is built around its familiar, perhaps because whoever wrote it heard that Magical Girls have cute little pets following them around, and uses a spell list made to enhance that particular feature.

It's an unfortunate choice, that has nothing to do with any Magical Girl I've ever heard about. Magical Girls don't fight with pets. They blast the heck out of things and in some cases, punch bad guys in the face. Even Card Captor Sakura, the closest to the Magical Child Archetype, is closer to a Wizard with one or two Eidolon(s) than to Magical Child.

Archetypes still need to be fitted to existing classes. Pathfinder's wargaming methodology isn't really fitted well to the freeform themes of Anime. That's more BESM territory.

I don't know, give the Warlock the Magical Child's Transformation Sequence and familiar, and it would become a passable Magical Girl Archetype, though the Warlock has its own issues. I just get the feeling that the person who wrote the thing hasn't watched many animes or at least Magical Girls animes.


Cruel Illusion wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Cruel Illusion wrote:

Magical Child only have few superficial trappings of Magical Girls. If they lost the transformation sequence, they'd never be associated to that kind of character.

The Archetype is built around its familiar, perhaps because whoever wrote it heard that Magical Girls have cute little pets following them around, and uses a spell list made to enhance that particular feature.

It's an unfortunate choice, that has nothing to do with any Magical Girl I've ever heard about. Magical Girls don't fight with pets. They blast the heck out of things and in some cases, punch bad guys in the face. Even Card Captor Sakura, the closest to the Magical Child Archetype, is closer to a Wizard with one or two Eidolon(s) than to Magical Child.

Archetypes still need to be fitted to existing classes. Pathfinder's wargaming methodology isn't really fitted well to the freeform themes of Anime. That's more BESM territory.
I don't know, give the Warlock the Magical Child's Transformation Sequence and familiar, and it would become a passable Magical Girl Archetype, though the Warlock has its own issues. I just get the feeling that the person who wrote the thing hasn't watched many animes or at least Magical Girls animes.

To be fair, that subgenre isn't particularly narrow. But they had to go with a narrow interpretation and pick. Magical Girls of different types can be played with different classes and archetypes with the addition of a magic item or two. (which is how it works in Sailor Moon).


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:


Archetypes still need to be fitted to existing classes. Pathfinder's wargaming methodology isn't really fitted well to the freeform themes of Anime. That's more BESM territory.

Completely true, but I think the Magical Child still sort of struggles to have an identity. You cast off a so-so, not so great spell list, change identities faster and have a familiar that auto improves as you level up.

I can't figure out what you're intended to do with that. The spell list is mostly ancillary stuff, but the archetype doesn't really support direct combat either. The lack of unique talents hurts too.

Cruel Illusion wrote:
I don't know, give the Warlock the Magical Child's Transformation Sequence and familiar, and it would become a passable Magical Girl Archetype, though the Warlock has its own issues. I just get the feeling that the person who wrote the thing hasn't watched many animes or at least Magical Girls animes.

Don't quote me on this, but if I remember right someone said the Magical Child was originally more traditional but got changed because it was too similar to the warlock. I think.

My homebrew fix was to give it magus spellcasting and the warlock's mystic bolt class feature(with some modifications to make it more functional). In turn the warlock got something to improve its casting and emphasize its versatility in pulling off the wizard list.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Berselius wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:
It would probably have been better to give the Magical Child Kineticist powers.
YES...YES THIS...YES SO VERY MUCH THIS! SOMEONE PLEASE FIND A WAY TO WORD THIS RULES WISE CORRECTLY SO WE CAN ALL DO IT! :D

Hm, I was already working on something similar to this, although adding more of a magical child vibe to it wouldn't be too hard. I think you can trust someone who knows the kineticist as well as I do to make this work. Henshin a go go, baby!

But yeah, I really agree that the unchained list wasn't super great for this. Bard or magus would have probably been a stronger choice.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:


To be fair, that subgenre isn't particularly narrow.

While this is true, I can't think of any magic girls that this is close to [which one has different magic animals at various times and can't switch?]. At best it's sort of kind of what you end up if you give someone a picture of a magic girl and make something up from that instead of actually watching one in action.

On top of that, it struggles mechanically for a role. It's familiars aren't combat ready, it's spells are focused around a pet it doesn't have and it lacks any ability to mimic the vast majority of magic girl abilities. It really seems to have no reason for being.


The Warlock and Magical Child should perhaps have been a single Archetype. The Magical Child's special abilities could easily be Warlock talents.

As it is now, the Magical Child as some flavor but not much else.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cruel Illusion wrote:

The Warlock and Magical Child should perhaps have been a single Archetype. The Magical Child's special abilities could easily be Warlock talents.

As it is now, the Magical Child as some flavor but not much else.

Magical Child, IMO, would have been better served with a few custom lists and an actual way to use the familiars. For instance a vigilante talent that adds cure spells [and maybe some status removal ones] to the spell list and lets the familiar channel healing better for a healer type. A talent to add some evocations and a way for familiars to blast for the attack types. Work up several of these kind of talents and the base class is usable as a magic girl.


I think when they designed the magical child they were thinking more Kiki from Kiki's Delivery Service then magical girls like Sailor Moon. Well at least with the spell list and familiar aspect, the transformation was just a classic trope they couldn't ignore.


N. Jolly wrote:
Berselius wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:
It would probably have been better to give the Magical Child Kineticist powers.
YES...YES THIS...YES SO VERY MUCH THIS! SOMEONE PLEASE FIND A WAY TO WORD THIS RULES WISE CORRECTLY SO WE CAN ALL DO IT! :D

Hm, I was already working on something similar to this, although adding more of a magical child vibe to it wouldn't be too hard. I think you can trust someone who knows the kineticist as well as I do to make this work. Henshin a go go, baby!

But yeah, I really agree that the unchained list wasn't super great for this. Bard or magus would have probably been a stronger choice.

Cool dude, shoot me a Private Message when your finished with it cause I'd love to see it. :D


You can actually do a passible He-Man with it...

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Squiggit wrote:
Completely true, but I think the Magical Child still sort of struggles to have an identity. You cast off a so-so, not so great spell list, change identities faster and have a familiar that auto improves as you level up.

It is more than that. I think people really underestimate the Magical Child's 'Animal Guide'. It isn't just a familiar that improves to each stage of improved familiar as you level up... it is a familiar that effectively becomes FOUR familiars as you level up... and adds excellent DR and Vigilante attack abilities on top of that. With any other familiar you can try to have it specialize in combat, or scouting, or group support, or various other roles... whereas a single animal guide could have different forms that specialize in multiple roles.

That said, something like the Havoker with a transformation sequence would be a closer fit for most 'Magical Girls'.


CBDunkerson: The issue is that the animal guide ISN'T what you say until 9th level. Until then it's a single familiar that changed into something totally different every 2 levels forcing you to change tactics every time it does. So you have a mish-mash of ever changing abilities until 1/2 way through the class... I'll grant a 9th+ magic child can pull off some interesting things by swapping familiars but until then you 100% lack multiple roles and that's extremely lacking, as I expect more level 1-8 play than 9-20.


Well, going off the "Tend to have magic based in healing, emotion, and illusions" idea, why not use the mesmerist, occultist, or spiritualist lists? I mean the 'magical girl' trope is somewhere between witch and occultist in flavor anyways.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
thorin001 wrote:
Endency wrote:
Am I the only one who's thought immediately went to Heman and Battle Cat with this one?
I certainly hope so. :P

I did too.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Call me a conspiracy nut, but I think they threw in the "unchained summoner" list as a plug to sell more Pathfinder Unchained books.

The Exchange

Thinking about it, shouldn't the Warlock = Witch spells, Cabalist = Summoning stuff from beyond & Magical Child = Sorcerer/Wizard spells? It'd make much more sense if they rotated the names like that.

The Transformation Sequence is a limitation, rather than a bonus, right? It cuts the time needed to change identities in half, but makes it really obvious... and anyone with the Sorcerer/Wizard or Witch spell lists could just take the Fabricate Disguise spell and 'transform' in a standard action with mere somatic components and a 1st level spell slot instead.


darth_borehd wrote:
Call me a conspiracy nut, but I think they threw in the "unchained summoner" list as a plug to sell more Pathfinder Unchained books.

Save that Pathfinder books sell quite well without the need for shenannigans... because they are that good on the whole.

You are a conspiracy nut. Happy?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Trekkie90909 wrote:
Well, going off the "Tend to have magic based in healing, emotion, and illusions" idea, why not use the mesmerist, occultist, or spiritualist lists? I mean the 'magical girl' trope is somewhere between witch and occultist in flavor anyways.

That definition screams Bard to me, that would even be fitting given the musical nature of most megucas and transformation sequences.


I've seen lots of Magical Girls (Usagi/Serena in particular) have more angelic or holy powers to them. Maybe the Cleric list with the standard Magus progression of the other archetypes? The Zealot casts off a different list so it's not quite stepping on their toes.

The bard list and casting also has potential.


I'm playing one, and my big intent is to run her as a self-buffer with a reach weapon (lucrene hammer, gotta have hammers). Summoner buffs don't have to be used on the summons, after all.

The only attack spell I'm taking is Snowball.

Also, if you can use archetypes on the familiar's higher forms like Mauler, that helps.

The Exchange

Davia D wrote:
The only attack spell I'm taking is Snowball.

That brings up an interesting question for me, as I'm not really used to all the Unchained stuff (after all, I had no reason to when it was still optional...). Snowball is listed as being available for Summoners, but isn't on the Unchained Summoner spell list. Do Unchained Summoners get the spells on their list plus any spells listed as being available to Summoners, or just the spells on their list, or what?


ProfPotts wrote:
Davia D wrote:
The only attack spell I'm taking is Snowball.
That brings up an interesting question for me, as I'm not really used to all the Unchained stuff (after all, I had no reason to when it was still optional...). Snowball is listed as being available for Summoners, but isn't on the Unchained Summoner spell list. Do Unchained Summoners get the spells on their list plus any spells listed as being available to Summoners, or just the spells on their list, or what?

Oh, then I may have to change my spell-list a bit because I'm pretty sure that means I don't have it ^^ I just kinda assumed... and it's not a major factor in my spells either. Grease can serve as my movement control one, Long Arm and/or Enlarge for giving me more hitting opportunities.


Take Samsaran to add a few spells to spell list.


Starbuck_II wrote:
Take Samsaran to add a few spells to spell list.

Not my pick of options, because they'll pretty much have to go melee a lot, and -2 con is a hit.

They're a Gish that have limited spells-per-day. Adding more spells known helps some, but I think you'll be a bit on the fragile side with that pick.


N. Jolly wrote:
Berselius wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:
It would probably have been better to give the Magical Child Kineticist powers.
YES...YES THIS...YES SO VERY MUCH THIS! SOMEONE PLEASE FIND A WAY TO WORD THIS RULES WISE CORRECTLY SO WE CAN ALL DO IT! :D

Hm, I was already working on something similar to this, although adding more of a magical child vibe to it wouldn't be too hard. I think you can trust someone who knows the kineticist as well as I do to make this work. Henshin a go go, baby!

But yeah, I really agree that the unchained list wasn't super great for this. Bard or magus would have probably been a stronger choice.

Oh good, now I won't have to do it!

I certainly think Kineticist style magical child would've been a good direction though.


The magical child archetype could have just been a kineticist archetype with a secret identity and a bonded object/familiar option.


There's plenty of precedent for a more physical magic girl too- Sailor Uranus, the Magic Knights Rayearth, 2/3rds the magic types in Nanoha (Fate, Vita, Signum, Subaru, etc.), Valkyrie Yuuki.

Having elemental would makes sense, but the vigilante class is a nice fit.


The Mortonator wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
Berselius wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:
It would probably have been better to give the Magical Child Kineticist powers.
YES...YES THIS...YES SO VERY MUCH THIS! SOMEONE PLEASE FIND A WAY TO WORD THIS RULES WISE CORRECTLY SO WE CAN ALL DO IT! :D

Hm, I was already working on something similar to this, although adding more of a magical child vibe to it wouldn't be too hard. I think you can trust someone who knows the kineticist as well as I do to make this work. Henshin a go go, baby!

But yeah, I really agree that the unchained list wasn't super great for this. Bard or magus would have probably been a stronger choice.

Oh good, now I won't have to do it!

I certainly think Kineticist style magical child would've been a good direction though.

Though if you want to give it a try as well then by all means feel free. :D

1 to 50 of 54 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Magical Child spellcasting? Why the Summoner class? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.