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chbgraphicarts wrote:

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

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I'd get mainly stat-increasing items like belt of dex+con, headband wis, and similar. Also get cloak resistance and clear spindle ioun+wayfinder.

I think another trick is you can get a belt of just +con and really push that to be +6 asap, and just try to get an ioun stone for dex.

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Escape Artist plus Liberating Command

PS: The sleep stuff doesn't seem to be a big deal to me. He could have dipped 1 level in witch and taken slumber hex as well. Regardless, his stats should be low enough that the save for sleep is super-easy. Having a save-or-suck spell with a low DC seems largely pointless to me. Honestly, it seems like a waste of a level, especially in a party which already has a sorcerer.

The actual sorcerer can presumably keep selecting deep slumber, cloak of dreams, etc., if you want someone in the party sleeping people.

If your husband really wants a magic rogue, he could look at eldritch scoundrel or any of the numerous archetypes of various spellcasting classes that get sneak attack dice.

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Here is a recent build for an earth kineticist if that helps:

PFS Legal, 20 Point buy

N alignment

Dual Talent Human

Lessons of Chaldira
Indomitable Will

STR: 7
DEX: 18
CON: 20 (Increase every opportunity)
INT: 7
WIS: 14
CHA: 7

Use Magic Device

1. Point Blank Shot
3. Precise Shot
5. Weapon Finesse
7. Iron Will
9. Improved Iron Will
11. Tribal Scars (Sloth Jaw)

First Element: Earth
Second Element: Earth

1. Kinetic Blade
2. Elemental Whispers (Hedgehog familiar +2 will save, Sage archetype)
3. Pushing Infusion
4. Earth Climb
5. Extended Range
6. Tremorsense
7. Rare-metal infusion
8. Kinetic Cover
9. Magnetic Infusion
10. Earth Glide
11. Wall Infusion

Main things to keep in mind:
(1) No stats matter except Con, Dex, and Wis. Buy your points accordingly.
(2) I do think PB Shot, Precise Shot, and Weapon Finesse should be your first three feats, not necessarily in that order.
(3) If you do go with fire, BE SURE TO MAKE YOUR SECOND ELEMENT SOMETHING LIKE AETHER so you have a choice when encountering enemies with spell resistance.
(4) For above, I didn't really care about the saving throws for abilities, because it is just a single target blaster. If you do, keep in mind affinity of the elements trait and (greater) elemental focus feats.

SUMMARY: Have fun! I think a properly built kineticist can solo from lvl 1 onward better than pretty much anyone else. You can seriously solo like CR+3 encounters. Just keep in mind that your only weakness is your will save. Try to get it up to snuff and also to buy a clear spindle ioun stone in a wayfinder.

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2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm with the others who say leave him alone. This is how he wants to play the game.

I would say try to cooperate so you can all play the characters you want, him included. Not everyone gets the same things out of playing a game.

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For a melee natural attacking build, look no further than the Goliath Druid.

You can 24/7 be a regenerating (so you NEVER die unless--if you choose the right troll--you are hit with fire and/or acid and/or sonic) troll with natural attacks. Since it is by giant form, you can keep all of your equipment. Giant form II also gives +8 bonus to strength, and you can be in it 24/7.

Also, you are full caster level as a druid.

For traits, take both magical lineage and wayang spellhunter for frostbite. That gets you empowered for free. You can add rime and quicken metamagic later, and any other metamagic you want.

I would start with this as a base and choose rage subdomain. Have 20 STR at level 1 and okayish (say 14) wisdom. Have good CON, like 18ish at the beginning. Don't worry about your other stats---tank them.

On this Druid 20 base, add whatever other prestige classes you want for flavor. Don't do bloodrager--you already have rage subdomain and are a full caster.

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Thanks to escherblacksmith and bitter lily!

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What is the cost of barding for a tiny animal? Say some equivalent of studded leather armor or the like?

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Can a swarm monger cast reduce person on their familiar and then make them swarm?

"As a standard action, a swarm monger can cause her familiar to burst forth into a full swarm of identical creatures, filling four contiguous 5-foot squares and gaining temporary hit points equal to half its master’s maximum hit points. While in swarm form, the familiar loses the improved evasion, share spells, deliver touch attack, and scry on familiar special abilities. It uses its normal AC, saving throws, and skill bonuses, and it gains the swarm subtype and the ability to make swarm attacks (dealing 1d6 points of damage at 1st level and using the swarm monger’s druid level as the swarm’s Hit Dice to determine damage increases as per the swarm subtype). The swarm monger is immune to her own familiar’s swarm attack."

One issue is share spells is lost in swarm form (see above) and this is what lets you cast reduce person on them "A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast)."

Still, what happens if you reduce the familiar in size first (when share spells is active) so that they get smaller, and then swarm the familiar?

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I can see building a warlock basically as an archer who has 6th level wizard spells. It is sad that basically every single feat is going to get used up making the mystic bolts not suck, but at the end of things you do have an okay-ish ranged attacker who also can cast spells from one of the best lists.

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I will echo others here that you want one of your good stats to be CON and the other to be either WIS or DEX. This is just common sense as far as needing to get saves up.

So I will support the others who said:

Caster cleric with CON/WIS
Kineticist with DEX/CON

I think you could also add

Empyreal Sorcerer with CON/WIS

to the list.

I am not so sure about those saying wizard...That would mean you have two saves that suck, which seems to be pushing the issue.

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Permanent Hallucination: "This spell functions as audiovisual hallucination, except that the phantasm you create includes visual, auditory, olfactory, tactile, and thermal components, and the phantasm follows a complex script. The phantasm follows that script without your having to concentrate on it and can react to stimuli the target perceives, as appropriate for the script. Unlike most illusions with a save to disbelieve, if the target disbelieves a permanent hallucination, she can choose to end the effect entirely at any time."

Note that audiovisual hallucination refers to auditory hallucination, which has a will save.

My concern is the statement, "Unlike most illusions with a save to disbelieve, if the target disbelieves a permanent hallucination, she can choose to end the effect entirely at any time."

(1) Can the target choose to disbelieve and not even need a roll and automatically disbelieve?

(2) Or do they need to make a successful will save to disbelieve?

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Rub-Eta wrote:
ChocRage wrote:
I want to check this cave out or try and scout ahead but one of those two always pushed me aside (In character or ooc, sometimes both) and either does it for me or we do what they want.

Not kosher, not cool. You really should talk to these players and the DM about this - if this is how they do things with refusal of change, you're not really invited to their game (because you don't get to play), so why bother showing up?

Also, you really should be allowed to play the character you want and any DM should work with you to make any necessary changes WITHOUT penalizing you. It sucks to abandon one of the original party members all of a sudden, but it sucks even more to have a player who doesn't want to play - that's the ultimate receipt to a DM that they've failed.

All this gets worse because of you being a new player. They really should be able to cut you some slack and properly introduce you to the game, even if it means giving you privileges that the other players don't have.

OP: I would talk over your concerns (out of character) with the DM and the other players. If they value you being with them, they will make at least some small attempt to accommodate you.

If they do try to change things up (either by letting you create a new character or by letting you make more decisions with your current character), then that is a good sign. If this happens, keep playing with them and see if you can compromise to get something everyone enjoys.

If they just say "you are wrong" and don't show any attempt to compromise, I would just find a new group.

Best of luck! I have definitely been there, by the way, and have ended up just leaving the group. For what it's worth, I am happy with the group I have now, and you just have to keep looking. Also, if you do leave the group, make sure to visit people playing other systems, because it might be that these are more popular in your area.

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Krell44 wrote:

I am curious about the feasibility of building a PFS legal Sorcerer that is focused on ranged/melee touch spells which debuff the target.

What would be a solid, defensive focused bloodline to take?
What should my statline look like? I imagine high CHA, and some ST/DEX/CON?
Any feats that support this build?

Cartomancer witch is pretty good. You can throw cards for bad touch effects, and you get bestow curse as a lvl 3 spell rather than the lvl 4 wizard/sorcerer spell.

Just max int, and have a pretty good dex and con, and you should be good. Take spell focus and greater spell focus necromancy soon, and misfortune, and you should be slinging those cards-of-save-or-suck-but-my-stats-are-high-enough-that-you-will-suck in no time.

Yes, not a sorcerer, and sorry about that... Dark Fey bloodline for sorcerer can also do bad touch, but I think it is a little more difficult.

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As others have said, they can buy wands. Most casters either have cure light wounds or infernal healing on their lists. As long as you adopt the PFS-ruling of infernal healing (doesn't turn you evil) I think there should be plenty of people who can wand their HP up between fights.

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Can a spontaneous (say an oracle) worshipper of Asmodeus use the spellcasting contract?

"This spell functions exactly like imbue with spell ability, except that you can imbue the target with any spell you have prepared (instead of just abjuration, divination, or conjuration [healing] spells) and the target may have more than one use of the imbued spells, depending upon the arrangements made when it is cast.

Casting this spell requires a contract between you and the target, explaining what spells are to be imbued and the circumstances that cause the contract to expire. The contract may be as simple as allowing the target one casting of each of the imbued spells (as per imbue with spell ability), or may continue for multiple days or even indefinitely, with the target regaining use of the imbued spells when you next prepare your own spells. You may include any proviso you see ft, such as requiring the target to pray to Asmodeus each morning, or restricting the target to only casting the imbued spells on himself. If the target does not agree to all the conditions in the contract, this spell fails when cast. The contract (and this spell) automatically expires if you or the target dies. While the contract remains in effect, you gain a profane bonus to your Armor Class, saving throws, and checks equal to the highest- level spell you have imbued.

Once you cast this spell, you cannot prepare a new 5th-level spell to replace it until the contract expires. If the number of 5th-level spells you can cast decreases, and that number drops below your current number of active lesser spellcasting contract spells, the more recently cast imbued spells are dispelled.

Unlike imbue with spell ability, how the target uses the spell has no refection on your alignment or relationship with Asmodeus; the Prince of Darkness accepts that allowing another access to his magic for good may benefit his plans in the long run. Note that unlike imbue with spell ability, you cannot dismiss this spell; you must abide by the contract’s termination clause (though the contract may include a proviso for at-will nullification by either or both parties). This spell cannot be combined with imbue with spell ability or similar spells to give a target more spells than the limit.

Example: You cast this spell on your 5 HD fighter cohort after negotiating an appropriate contract, imbuing him with the ability to cast cure moderate wounds, magic weapon, and shield of faith once per day for 1 month. If he casts any of these spells, he recovers them when you prepare your spells. Until the contract ends, your 5th-level spell slot used to cast this spell remains expended and cannot be filled with a new spell. Because you imbued your cohort with a 2nd-level spell, you gain a +2 profane bonus to attacks, saves, and checks while the contract remains in effect."

I kind of think the answer is no, but wish it was yes. So if anyone can make me happy (or :D destroy my dreams) please go ahead and post!

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I made an unarmed fighter 1/ mouser 1/ vexing daredevil xxx halfling build that used crane style and a fighting fan.

I think it was a pretty good build. When I created the build, I put way too many points toward charisma. If I had to do it again, I would instead max dex first and then get middling cha and con. Having played a mesmerist, I now think charisma is something of a trap option, and one should focus on the combat stuff instead. Doubtless people will disagree with me, but I think they just don't pull enough weight to be a full caster.

The only benefit of a fighting fan is the distracting quality, so you might as well do a feint build. Vexing daredevils do feint better than almost anyone else.

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Hi all,

We are going to be starting a reign of winter campaign. Rules are that builds must be PFS legal (even though the campaign will not be played in PFS.) So we will start with level 1 characters.

I also think there might just be 3 of us, rather than the traditional 4. So we should probably be relatively optimized because we will lack the 4th person.

My understanding is that we will have me, a melee focused druid with a tiger (Hi Theconiel!--You are welcome to chime in on this thread!) and a third person with an unknown build. The third person tends to play barbarians, monks, etc., so I expect some sort of melee-ish non-spellcasting build from them.

I volunteered that I would at least have the "party face" role covered, so I should do that.

My tentative build so far is:

Name: Paine

CN alignment

Human Psychic

Pain Discipline

Human dual talent alternate racial trait
CON 14
INT 20
CHA 18

Harrow Deck: +2 CL divination
Irrepressible: CHA to will vs charm+compulsion

Phrenic Amplifications:
1. Will of the dead
3. Undercast Surge
7. Relentless Casting
11. Mimic metamagic Intuitive Spell and Quicken Spell
15. Subordinate spell
19. Dual amplification

1. Fortune Teller (with Harrow Deck as focus)
3. Intensified Spell
5. Spell Focus: Divination
7. Spell Specialization (Mind Thrust--Change at appropriate even levels as upgrade version of mind thrust)
9. Greater Spell Focus: Divination
11. Empower Spell
13. Maximize Spell
15. Spell Perfection (Mind Thrust VI)
17. Bloatmage Initiate: Divination
19. Diviner's Delving

Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Diplomacy, Perception, alternate various knowledge skills

Spells from discipline:
Persuasive goad (1st), pain strike (4th), vampiric touch (6th), mass pain strike (8th),

synapse overload (10th), mass inflict pain (12th), waves of exhaustion (14th), horrid

wilting (16th), mass suffocation (18th).

0: Light, Detect Magic, Stabilize, Resistance
1: Mind Thrust (always choose and use even level forget ability to forget old versions),

Endure Elements, Magic Missile
2: Mirror Image, See invisibility
3: Gaseous form (Stay in this 24/7 when adventuring!), Blink, Fly, Dispel Magic,

Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, Tongues
4: Overland Flight, Divination, Arcane Eye, Scrying
5: Contact Other Plane, True seeing
6: Greater Dispel Magic, Legend Lore
7: Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Vision, Mind Blank
8: Mind Blank (Communal), Discern Location
9: Foresight, Greater Communal Spell Immunity, Time Stop, Wish

Good psychic spells that can be undercast--Choose at some level:
Intellect fortress (help saves!)
Mental Barrier
Tower of Iron will

Items to pick up sometime:
Headband of Vast Int
Belt of Con
Pink and Green Sphere (Ioun Stone) -- +CHA w/o needing headband mental prowess/superiority
Incandescent Blue sphere +2 wis Ioun Stone -- ditto, avoid expensive headband
Ring of Inner Fortitude
Guardian weapon (put on armor spikes or something--help saves!)
Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone
Stone of Good Luck

Mind thrust a lot. Use magic missile if you can't mind thrust. Once you get 6th level, stay in gaseous form all of the time.

WHAT I WANT FROM YOU, DEAR READERS!!! <---Feel free to skip to here if TLDR!
I know I can't choose ALL of the spells I listed above, and there are doubtless some I forgot. Please help me with the spell selection. I definitely want mind thrust, magic missile, gaseous form, and endure elements (remember--reign of winter--although hopefully the druid will take it too so that I don't have to waste all of my slots on it). Everything else is uncertain. Keep in mind that the character will have great DCs with divination spells and very high caster level with divination, so divination spells are good. Other good spells would be non-divination spells that don't have a save and/or don't use spell resistance.


Errata: If it is following PFS rules, it has to take developer commentary into account. So you can assume that this ruling stands.

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Maybe it's a problem because the GM read somewhere that a character should have a problem 1 out of every 9 fights? I don't f!@#ing know...

But Mr. Bob^3 has it right; the issue isn't with the feat being chosen, it's with the fact that a character who is already buffed up by your GM experience (even though the other players were equally weak anyway) and system mastery is buffed up even more (albeit not much) by another player's equal or superior system mastery, and the other players are still using the same, crappy characters, and taking the same, crappy options (like Prone Shooter).

In short, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. You helped the "noob" archer player out (who is no longer there, and whose character was inherited by a much more skilled player), but you didn't help the other "noob" players who appear to equally require your help.

If you don't want the Archer to constantly outshine your PCs, then it's time for a Deus Ex Machina in relation to the other PCs. Create a scenario (no fighting, presumably) where an NPC "unlocks their potential," granting a one-time "rebuild" with your help, so that they aren't so far behind in comparison to the "problem PC." This way, it doesn't matter if the Archer PC took PBM, because the other PCs have received an equal (or greater) gain in power (and it actually gives you an excuse to buff up the monsters a little bit in comparison).

+1 This seems like an excellent idea. It is especially useful because after all of the house rules of the OP have been implemented, probably only he/she knows what is best.

I am still surprised the witch is underperforming. With the max hit points every level buff, you would think saves are the way to attack a typical character.

Please tell me they took slumber and accursed hex at level 1, right, and max'd INT at 20? They should be taking most non-immune enemies out of the fight the first round or two (unless coup de grace and/or slumber are illegal in your voluminous house rules...)

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Thanks for the FAQ!

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(1) You should have 2 traits but only have one, namely magical lineage with shocking grasp. The arcane focus from elf you have replaces weapon familiarity and is an alternate racial trait. Confusing, I know, but the summary of things is that you get one more trait.

(2) I would go either shocking grasp or frostbite in a build, not both (or at least don't spend feats on both.) Since you already have the trait for shocking grasp and intensified spell, you have apparently decided on shocking grasp. You could certainly easily switch things around, however, to a frostbite build if you wanted to.

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It's an interesting archetype. The main value I see for it is getting out of grapples. Otherwise, it seems largely pointless.

Assume you are always maxing INT, because that is your prime stat. Lets say you really try hard to get CHA as well, and start with a 16 CHA.

BY 13th level, when you just barely get gaseous body for minutes a level, you can use the formless adept gaseous body for 3+3=6 minutes a day.

By contrast, at level 13, you could just cast the gaseous form spell and have it last for 2x13=26 minutes per day.

Before level 13, it is even worse. At level 12, you can use the SU ability for 6 rounds per day, but if you just cast the spell it would be 24 minutes a day.

So the only real advantage of it is being able to use it as an SU ability to escape a grapple. Pretty nice, but I am kind of wondering if you might just as well buy some boots of escape (or even 2 pairs if you are really worried about it) and just choose a psychic discipline that would have more of a benefit for you.

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You can always cast all of the touch spells while blurred.

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Thanks for the FAQ votes everyone!

Lacking any more detail/guidance, I think I will just cautiously go ahead with my character...

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26 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

When I search the forums on this, all I see is a great deal of murkiness. It would be nice if some official Paizo person chimed in to let me know. I have definitely been pleasantly surprised many times in the past when Paizo has chimed in (even if it was to say something that disagreed with me!)

Question: Can a magical child have a familiar with the mauler archetype?

Points against this: The magical child gets improved familiar for free later on, and these give up "speak with animals". Since Mauler also gives this up, this means you can't have the mauler archetype.

Points for this: A careful reading of magical child reveals that they do not get the improved familiar feat per se. Instead, it says:

* "At 3rd level, the magical child's familiar reveals another aspect of its form, and its vigilante identity changes into a creature on the Improved Familiar list that would be available to a 3rd-level spellcaster."

Note: This means that the option to take that creature is open, but nowhere does it say one has to give up all of the things that improved familiar gives up.

* As far as accepting the drawbacks of the improved familiar feat, the only thing I can find in the magical child writeup is: "The Improved Familiar feat's alignment restrictions apply to this ability, but only the magical child's vigilante identity needs to have an alignment that fulfills the alignment requirements of the improved familiar."

Note: In other words, one has to accept the alignment restrictions of the improved familiar feat, but it does not seem to be the case that one has to give up "speak with animals of its own kind."

From this, it seems that by a strict RAW analysis, a magical child in PFS can have an improved familiar with a Mauler archetype.

Agree, disagree, want more dev input? Then please chime in on this thread. The more input (even if you disagree with me) the better, as far as I am concerned...

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I created a PFS LN cardinal cleric of Baalzebul (aka Baal aka Hadad) who is a cardinal. I took the undead subdomain. I am basically going to max charisma and any spells will be buff spells so it doesn't matter what their DC is.

Why I chose cardinal:

* Skills per level!
* Bluff and intimidate to class skills. This really helps a charisma based character.
* Undead subdomain because I am a negative energy channeler.
* All of the things a cardinal gives up don't really matter to me. I just need to max charisma first, then constitution, and make sure wisdom is enough to cast spells at my level, and I don't really care about anything else.

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Travel domain gets dimension door. I would go for the dimensional agility feat line...

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I recently discovered the Android app and love it. I hope they expand on it. I have been having a lot of fun.

For whatever reason, I have been soloing only with one character whenever I play.

In just a couple of days, I already have Lini in the 4-*** zone. She is definitely an awesome soloer. Being able to add 1d4+4 to any check at all AND being able to heal makes her pretty invulnerable. She never dies, only sometimes fails to fulfill the mission.

Next I have a solo Merisiel. She is really good in all combats. As far as skill checks go, sometimes she suffers.

Finally, I have a solo Seoni. She is definitely the weakest of the three characters as far as soloing goes, as she seems to go through cards too quickly. Still, I am having fun.

Keep up the good work Paizo/Obsidian and I hope to see more.

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The shadow caller one can be made into a reasonable fear/intimidate bot.

More generally, I think if there is some useful ability that is gated behind a bunch of feats, you can have the phantom do it.

There is probably some amusing thing you can do where both of you take the monkey style chain and intrepid rescuer.

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James Risner wrote:
Option 1

Thank you!

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I'd say take slumber. You can use spells for flight.

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TEXT FOR ABILITY: "Incite Rage (Su): At 6th level, the thundercaller can induce a furious rage in one creature within 30 feet. This effect functions as the rage spell and lasts as long as the target can hear the thundercaller’s performance. Unwilling creatures can be affected if they fail a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the thundercaller’s level + the thundercaller’s Cha modifier).

Success renders the target immune to this power for 24 hours. The thundercaller cannot target herself with this ability. If the target has the rage class feature, it can instead immediately rage and stay in this rage without consuming rounds of rage per day as long as the thundercaller continues performing. This mind-affecting effect requires audible components."

MY QUESTION: What exactly does, "Success renders the target immune to this power for 24 hours," mean? It seems to me that it could mean two things:

Option 1: If an unwilling target succeeds on a saving throw vs incite rage, they are immune to the ability for 24 hours.

Option 2: If the ability is successfully used on a target, the target is (after the ability runs its course) immune to the effects for 24 hours.

I am leaning towards Option 1 being the correct option. Do you agree? If option 1 is correct, then the thundercaller could (as long as they have enough rounds of performance) keep using incite rage on the same friendly target (who would not need to make a save because they are not unwilling) for several different battles in a given day.

Does this sound correct to people?

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(1) Be a sorcerer. You are actually more versatile. I know wizard devotees say wizards are more versatile, but they are only this when they rely on metagame knowledge. In actuality, a sorcerer is more versatile because you can memorize your defensive spells and cast as many of them as you want to.

(2) Have high CON. Dump STR and INT. Get belts of CON.

(3) Choose defensive spells from lvl 2+. Don't worry about AC. Your AC sucks. Any attempt to make your AC not suck will cripple your character. (You are maxing CHA and CON at startup, are you not?)

(4) Choose spells that help you. Beyond level 1, these are:
* Mirror Image
* Flight
* Blink

Cast these spells whenever you need to,

(5) Emergency Force Sphere is a nice spell. If you are a sorcerer, you can cast it whenever you want.

(6) Reminder, but max CON after CHA.

(7) So you have your headbands of alluring CHA and belts of CON? Get a wayfinder plus clear spindle ioun stone ASAP. Also, don't forget Irrepressible that lets you substitute CHA for WIS in the most common will saving group.

If you follow these rules, you will only die if the GM has it out for you. And if they do, you should say GOODBYE and plan your own gaming group!

(8) Just remember, 90% of wizard superiority is metagame knowledge that they should not have. If you are just showing up for the scenario of the day, sorcerer will be better. Learn mostly defensive spells with enough offensive spells to get you by. Practically speaking, this means about 1 offensive spell per level.

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(1) Be a sorcerer. You are actually more versatile. I know wizard devotees say wizards are more versatile, but they are only this when they rely on metagame knowledge. In actuality, a sorcerer is more versatile because you can memorize your defensive spells and cast as many of them as you want to.

(2) Have high CON. Dump STR and INT. Get belts of CON.

(3) Choose defensive spells from lvl 2+. Don't worry about AC. Your AC sucks. Any attempt to make your AC not suck will cripple your character. (You are maxing CHA and CON at startup, are you not?)

(4) Choose spells that help you. Beyond level 1, these are:
* Mirror Image
* Flight
* Blink

Cast these spells whenever you need to,

(5) Emergency Force Sphere is a nice spell. If you are a sorcerer, you can cast it whenever you want.

(6) Reminder, but max CON after CHA.

(7) So you have your headbands of alluring CHA and belts of CON? Get a wayfinder plus clear spindle ioun stone ASAP. Also, don't forget Irrepressible that lets you substitute CHA for WIS in the most common will saving group.

If you follow these rules, you will only die if the GM has it out for you. And if they do, you should say GOODBYE and plan your own gaming group!

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Deific obedience Irori (just the cost of 1 feat, roleplay to change alignment to N from NG--maybe coup de grace a few enemies that you did not need to and then change your sheet) gives you +4 on all knowledge checks.

You could take that and just start adding to knowledges.

Also, if you can take another feat, extra traits will let you have +1 to some and have them be class skills.

If you want to go the evangelist route, you will only lose out on a 1 level of barbarian and can do foxes cunning at evangelist lvl 3. In the event you do this, maybe take retraining so that you took the evangelist levels earlier in your career. You will also need retraining to get the 3 ranks of knowledge religion.

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K-kun the Insane wrote:

My PFS Dragon Disciple will reach level 12 with 1 more xp and while I am aware that his career is coming to an end, I still feel that applying the levelup is important.

His highest level of spell he can cast is 4th and he learns a new 2nd 3rd and 4th upon leveling. My choices are pretty much made:

2nd - Spontaneous Immolation
3rd - Draconic Reservoir OR Shifting Sand
4th - Dragon's Breath

Dragon's Breath will give me an 11d6 acid/cold/electric breath or an 11d6+11 fire breath with a DC18 Reflex save for half. I could potentially cast this 4/day.

I also have a breath weapon useable 2/day at 15d6 fire with a DC21 Reflex save for half.

The fire version of the spell has an average damage of 49.5 (22-77)
The sneeze has an average damage of 52.5 (15-90)

They're fairly close so the main difference is the DC. How much of a difference do the DCs make?


I tend either to optimize characters to have ridiculously high DCs -or- don't bother with them at all and just cast spells without saves.

At level 12 if I am playing a DC oriented character, they will tend to be 10+9+6=25 for class abilities and 10+9+2+6=27 for spells. Sometimes more, sometimes less...

If I don't care about DCs with a character, it doesn't matter what they are because I won't rely on them. I will either buff with spells or use ones with no saving throw.

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This is the feat you want!

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MichaelCullen wrote:
Yeah, I'm not super confident about that win. When Wiz Bang Mazed himself after the spell turning, by a strict reading of the rules he did leave the arena, as does anyone who teleports, as teleportation requires an instant in the astral plane.

+1 If you are mazed, you have left the arena. Can there be any doubt about this? So anyone who has been mazed has lost the match.

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OP: Good find! I agree that there does seem to be some synergy...even though my first thought was why would anyone do crossblooded orc without also doing draconic.

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(1) Is the reflex save one that the target (i.e., the rope) makes or is it one that the person getting tripped makes?

(2) "The rope attacks anything in a 10-foot-square area you designate." Does this mean you can just point to a square and the rope will joyfully go over there and start tripping people?
(a) If so, what is the range? The range of the spell is touch (because the target is the rope and you have to touch it) but there is no indication about the range of the square you designate.
(b) If not, this seems dangerous. Do you have physically to carry the rope over to the area yourself? Does it try to trip you the instant you put it down? Do you have to throw it at a square so it doesn't try to trip you as you place it?

(3) "The rope does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Its CMB is equal to your caster level +2. A tripped target that was running, jumping, or charging takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Creatures aware of the tripvine gain a +4 bonus to their CMD against it." I would assume anyone seeing you cast the spell is aware of it, correct?

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This is very entertaining. I like the dramatic flair the characters have!

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Kurald Galain wrote:

It is the shocking grasp builds that live or die by spell combat, not the frostbite ones.

Again no. A frostbite build using spell combat is much better than a frostbite build that avoids SC. Because of action economy, every Magus build benefits strongly from SC, and in fact the shocking grasp build is one of the few that can do without.

For a guide writer, you seem very uninformed here. The typical frostbite build doesn't really care about spell combat. In the typical example of starting battle away from the enemy, you can't even do spell combat because it is a full round action and you need to move to the enemy.

The frostbite build can (in the first round) swift action buff with arcane pool, cast frostbite, then draw weapon and approach and get a free action attack.

At that point, they are near the enemy and have several charges of frostbite that they can use while full attacking. At this point, they don't want to cast any other spells anyway (i.e., no more spell combat) because that would cause them to lose their frostbite charges.

So saying that spell combat is super important to a frostbite build is just missing the point. It is basically completely irrelevant in the most common applications of a frostbite build. The only time it is going to come up is when you have already used all of your previous frostbite charges, are still next to the enemy, and then want to buff up again. Hardly vital...

That said, I tend to play dex builds with high initiatives and so tend to go first. If you are used :P to playing some slow-as-snails STR build that doesn't tend to act first, you will get enemies first approaching you more so that you can use spell combat more that first round. You still won't be using it, however, on subsequent rounds.

Kurald Galain wrote:

So at lvl 8 you have 24 dex.

Yes, and at level 8 the strength build would have 24 strength. So your point is?

My point is that if the STR build has 24 strength, they have made a sacrifice that the dex build did not have to make. You have less AC, less CON, or less INT.

Edit: Bowing out in the interest of not mucking up the staff magus thread more. If you want to explain in detail in another thread why spell combat is so vital to a frostbite magus build, by all means do so. I would encourage you to be specific and use actual real play examples that would frequently come up. In my experience, it is something that is nice and that you occasionally want to use, but nowhere near as important as spellstrike or the other goodies a magus gets.

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MrCharisma wrote:
nennafir wrote:

Not really. You can play a dex based frostbite magus who never uses spell combat. So you always get the shield bonus. Again, it's all in the details.

Also, I think it is perfectly valid advice to say, "Why don't you try this other, similar build, that is probably going to be optimized better?"

So what you're saying is that you think a Staff Magus gives up to much to be a useful archetype, so instead you suggest dropping Spell-Combat (arguably the Magus' most powerful unique ability) so that you can still use a buckler?


The dps of a frostbite dex-to-damage build is quite good. This is especially true because they will have fewer stats to maximize. So the ones they do will tend to be higher.

It is the shocking grasp builds that live or die by spell combat, not the frostbite ones.

It seems that people don't really understand how it works and/or haven't actually number crunched things. Lets say you start with an 18 dex (very reasonable since you only pay attention to dex, con, int--the str magus is not so lucky.) And lets say you have a +4 dex item and put your extra points to dex. So at lvl 8 you have 24 dex. And lets say you have slashing grace or fencing grace or something like that with a d6 weapon.

Further suppose you do an empowered frostbite at lvl 8 (maybe only as a second level spell because you took the right trait--could even be as a first level spell if you took 2 traits for this.)

First round, you are going to move toward the other guy and still do
1d6+15+1.5x(1d6+8) damage or an average of 35.75 damage. On subsequent rounds while you full attack you will (if each attack hits) do twice that. And you have fatigues the other guy. And if you rime spell it you have entangled them.

And you can keep this up for several rounds before needing to cast frostbite again. At higher levels, the +lvl damage from frostbite becomes even more significant. And the fact that you can get this damage on each attack in your full attack becomes even more significant.

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CBDunkerson wrote:
nennafir wrote:
Staff can't get dex to damage, so you need strength.
Actually, you can. Staff Magus gets Quarterstaff Master as a bonus feat. Add Spear Dancing Spiral and you can use various spears/polearms (e.g. Elven Branched Spear would be a good choice for an Elf PC) one-handed with weapon finesse and from there into various dex to damage options (e.g. UnRogue 3 Finesse Training).

Fair enough. It seems like a long road, however...

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Alex Mack wrote:
nennafir wrote:

Not really. You can play a dex based frostbite magus who never uses spell combat. So you always get the shield bonus. Again, it's all in the details.

Wouldn't such a Magus be talking an awful lot of single attacks the round after casting frostbite? Doesn't seem all that desireable tbh.


Typically, the first round of combat, you are moving toward the other guy anyway and couldn't get a full attack. First round, swift action arcane pool to buff, cast frostbite, move toward other guy and draw weapon, free action attack with spellstrike to deliver one charge of frostbite. Subsequent rounds, full attack with frostbite on each attack.

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Kurald Galain wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:

The OP said: "Playing an Elf Staff-Magus, need help."

And you replied with: "Don't play an Elf Staff-Magus."

It's completely unhelpful.

Not only that, it's also incorrect. Whenever the Magus uses spell combat, he loses the bonus from his buckler. Since a Magus should be spell combating as often as possible, he gets little or no benefit from a +5 buckler.

This means that the Staff Magus has better defenses than most other archetypes, while not getting the speed penalty for medium or heavy armor.

Not really. You can play a dex based frostbite magus who never uses spell combat. So you always get the shield bonus. Again, it's all in the details.

Also, I think it is perfectly valid advice to say, "Why don't you try this other, similar build, that is probably going to be optimized better?"

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The shield bonus of Staff Magus doesn't matter: It is still going to have less armor than the various kensai and/or medium and/or heavy armor options. Most dex or str magus (NOT kensai but they get INT to AC) can get a buckler and enhance it as much as they want and not interfere with slashing grace or whatever. So the shield bonus of the staff magi is quickly overtaken. And the other people still have better armor.

The staff magus has less armor than other magi. It is something to be aware of at least.

As I said before, I think you can make a build for it, but it is tricky. You need STR/DEX/CON/INT and any class that needs 4 stats is going to be somewhat gimp compared to others that need less. I think all of these people advising having a 12-ish con for a melee class which has less AC than the average magus are smoking something... You are just increasing your chance of dieing, unless you have a GM that is fudging rolls.

Let me know if you want me to post a good kensai+bladebound build. It will be serviceable and not so multi-stat dependent. You can PM as well if that is your preference.

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I think it is a bit of a tricky build. Staff can't get dex to damage, so you need strength. But also you are giving up medium+ armor and need dex. And of course you still need Int. I'd personally prefer a build where you could somewhat tank either str or dex.

It is further complicated by the fact that you are playing an elf in melee range, which means you are going to want CON even though elf takes a con hit.

Here is one of the guides if you want to take a look at it.

I'd personally go for one of the other archetypes and do a dex-to-damage build with frostbite. Or if you want to play a strength based build, get a weapon with more heft than a staff and don't give up heavy armor.

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Basically, people around you can wish for things and you get to cast a spell at +1 caster level. Also, you can eventually force enemies to wish for things and the DC against them will increase (if they fail the save against the wish.)

I actually have a really fun build planned out with wishcrafter that I am levelling. The main thing to realize, however, is that it is something of a gimp class. If you just want +1 CL to a large class of spells, choose tattood sorcerer archetype and you won't have to bother with wishes.

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Thanks for the suggestions everyone! Some great ideas!

I particularly like the pack mule, cave druid, and zen archer ideas.

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