Do the Fighter / Sorcerer classes need unchained versions?

[Berselius]

So, does anyone think the Fighter or Sorcerer classes both need some retooling? Just wondering.

[Bob Bob Bob]

For Fighter I actually think it's covered. Weapon Master's Handbook, Armor Master's Handbook, and a few of the archetypes cover it quite well. The benefit to a Fighter was always the "build what you want" design, it just did it in the worst way possible (feats).

Sorcerer probably needs one (mostly because Oracle looks so much better designed by comparison). Not a real pressing need though.

Having just recently made a Cleric, I think they desperately need real class features. Two domains, channel energy, and spells. Nothing else. Not even a capstone. Wizards aren't much better but still get more than the cleric, and most of the schools have a capstone.

[Berselius]

Cool, what fixes would you apply for the Sorcerer?

More Bloodline features? Or possibly allowing bonus spells (via their charisma modifier) to apply to their "spells known"?

[Bob Bob Bob]

Spells at the level they use them, to start. It makes no sense that you get bloodline spells a level after you can cast that spell level. Either let them skip prereqs for bloodline feats or replace them with something like the wizard has (feats spellcasters actually use instead of the weird hodgepodge that bloodlines give). But other than that, I don't actually know what would make them better. I can point out problems, but solutions (especially ones without unintended consequences) take a lot more work. The basic problem with sorcerer is that they have literally one real class feature other than spells, bloodline. And it's not a particularly spectacular one.

[Scythia]

The change I'd make for sorcerer is switching them to a choose from slate basis, like Oracle. This would be non-disruptive and would only require adding a few powers as options to each bloodline.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Give sorcerers more skill-points. 4+ Int would be fine; wizards would still get far more in practice, but at least sorcerers could actually get Spellcraft/Knowledge: Arcana and have a couple points leftover.

[My Self]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Give sorcerers more skill-points. 4+ Int would be fine; wizards would still get far more in practice, but at least sorcerers could actually get Spellcraft/Knowledge: Arcana and have a couple points leftover.

Honestly, Cleric needs an Unchained version more than the Sorcerer. But since they're both 9-level casters, they don't need an unchained version *that* bad. 4+INT skillpoints on either of those classes would be great.

I'd love to see a Fighter that had all the WMH and AMH-like options integrated into the class, while retaining the "wall of feats" that no other class can quite match. Then maybe also some of the archetypes rolled into class, or Martial Flexibility as a semi-default option. The Advanced (x) Training things were basically class patches, meant to non-invasively fix a broken feature. If there was an Unchained version with a more comprehensive fix that gave some those options as default things (extra skill points, bravery to intimidate DC, assigning single-weapon feats to all weapons in the same weapon group) and others (spellcut, weapon mastery feats) as another regularly selectable class feature, akin to UMonk Style Strikes, we'd have a much cleaner class. No class's default build should require you to dive into a splatbook.

[Dexion1619]

Between Armor Master handbook, Weapon Masters Handbook and free Combat Stamina (assuming you use that new system), Fighters end up in a decent place (at least compared to before).

Combat Stamina does a good job of giving the fighter some "tricks"of his own. And being able to boost your attacks is a bonus.

[Dasrak]

4+int skill points minimum on any class that isn't intelligence-based would definitely be appreciated, and it's a house-rule I endorse even if some of the beneficiaries are very powerful classes already.

If you give him those extra skill points and access to all the new content, Fighter is looking pretty decent now. For all intents and purposes he is unchained... but the problem is the individual pieces of that rewrite are strewn across half a dozen books <_<

Sorcerer really doesn't have a problem; he's a powerful and well-rounded class with tons of awesome class features. The "issue" is that he's standing in the shadow of his big brother, the Wizard. Of course if comparing unfavorably against the Wizard is reason enough for a rewrite... well, 95% of all classes just qualified.

[Blackwaltzomega]

An unchained fighter would be convenient, even if all you did was put Advanced Weapon and Armor Training all in one place.

Personally, I feel like leaving it at that is still a meh decision. Including some things like 4+int skills, Perception and Heal as class skills, and a strong Reflex save would bring it more in line with other martials, and I feel makes more sense for what the class is supposed to represent. The ultimate soldier would, in my view, have better reflexes than a man who sings for his supper, on top of being able to assess his surroundings and treat injuries; if you spend all your time on the battlefield, disease, poison, and flesh wounds are something you get familiar with.

The sorcerer should probably have 4+Int skills as well, because 2+int is just really stingy unless you're an INT-focused class, but other than that the only actual adjustment I think the class needs is the bonus spells thing.

[UnArcaneElection]

Proposed change for all classes/archetpes that are not Intelligence-based casters: Use the Pathfinder Unchained Background Skills option (which came out in Pathfinder Unchained but that I've never heard of anybody actually using). This alleviates skill starvation for many classes including Fighter and Sorcerer other than Sage Sorcerer, but also including Eldritch Scion Magus (although THAT needs other fixes as well -- another thread has already been created for fixing archetypes, but needs some Breath of Life to be performed on it.

For Fighter, with the above change we might be in pretty good shape (although see the thread I just linked above for fixes to some of the archetypes to let them actually use the Weapon Master's Handbook material), although I would still be inclined to tweak the Saves as some have posted above.

For Sorcerer, with the above change, the next thing we need is to fix Bloodlines, which are currently a mess, being VERY UNEVEN in quality -- some of them have mostly awesome abilities, and some of them have mostly stinkers for abilities, and many of them have bonus feats that a single-class Sorcerer can't even qualify for (often due to BAB requirements, and in any case a Bloodline never gets you off the hook for prerequisites) unless the campaign goes Epic (and sometimes nearly all of their feat list is like this). Also, most of the Wildblooded Bloodlines should NOT be archetypes (which just adds unnecessary complication), but just sub-Bloodlines (or better yet rolled into their parent Bloodlines if Bloodlines are REALLY reworked the way they should be and made like Oracle Mysteries). The Psychic Bloodline, on the other hand, isn't an archetype, but should be (like Id Rager for Bloodrager). Sage and Empyreal are the only current Wildblooded Bloodlines that should remain as archetypes.

[The Mortonator]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Proposed change for all classes/archetpes that are not Intelligence-based casters: Use the Pathfinder Unchained Background Skills option (which came out in Pathfinder Unchained but that I've never heard of anybody actually using).

It's swiftly becoming an assumed rule in our games since I suggested it. For some it just seems to end up being they are master linguists. Though, this happened in our group before using the system so...

[SheepishEidolon]

Berselius wrote:

So, does anyone think the Fighter or Sorcerer classes both need some retooling? Just wondering.

Fighter got upgrades all the time, since Unchained (or even before). His main class features (feats) leads to a sandbox character - which can be overwhelming and low on flavor, but it's unique and should stay by all means. The 2 ranks problem can be overcome in multiple ways, so why solving this for the players?

Sorcerer is not bad either. Like Scythia, I'd prefer the oracle way of picking powers, but because of cherry-picking it would be a straight power increase, for experienced players. Even with the same amount of powers, picked at the same levels. Given sorcerer's relativ strength, something else would have to been sacrificed in return - spells? When it comes to skills, sorcerer suffers from 2 ranks, but also adds his enormous Cha score and can bypass some checks with magic anyway.

Generally, I dislike the tendency of fixing classes upwards - it needs a lot of changes, with a lot of collateral damage. Rather ask your wizard, druid etc. players to restrict themselves somewhat. In the case they don't do that already - often enough they pick a theme and focus on it, instead of mercilessly exploiting all the strength their class has to offer.

[Harleequin]

Not remotely for the sorceror

Fighter could do with a couple of small tweaks.... I had an idea that at 10th level they could half move but then still full attack?

[wraithstrike]

The sorcerer still holds its own in games. The fighter could use some help though, but I don't think it will get enough to matter.

[Rhedyn]

Berselius wrote:

So, does anyone think the Fighter or Sorcerer classes both need some retooling? Just wondering.

The fighter is far too difficult to make an effective character with. Yes it needs an unchained version.

No, the sorcerer is fine. It is actually very hard to make a bad sorcerer unless your optimization abilities are just miles behind everyone else at the table.

[Rogar Valertis]

The fighter yes. The sorcerer? Not so much.

Fighters can be great but they fall behind other martials in most areas including dealing damage. The only spot the fighter class currently shines is if you play it as full archer, then it's very effective even at high levels but that's more becaus aof how good archery is compared to pretty much any other type of fighting style (starting from the fact you don't need to put yourself within reach of creatures who could easily oneround the sturdiest of fighters.

The MAIN thing the fighter needs BEFORE going into mechanical tweaks is a new conceptual focus though. As it is the fighter is just a "a man who fights" ("Bob the man at arms") instead he should be something akin the heroes of legend, someone whose skill with weapons and armor makes him a true master of fighting, think Achilles, the comic version of Leonidas or Rambo as examples. He should be someone who relies on skill at arms to do exceptional things similar to those other martials can do with the help of a divinity (Paladins), totemic rituals and heritage (Barbarians) or natural atunement (Rangers) and instead as it is the class fails badly at this.

[Dragon78]

Yes to both.

I think both should have 4+Int skills and more class skills.

I think the fighter should be immune to fear by level 10.

I like the idea of sorcerers having a list of bloodline powers.

I think sorcerers should get a bloodline power at 6th and 12th level.

I think fighters should get tricks/technics with there chosen weapon training groups.

I think fighters should get abilities they can use with there shields and maybe armor.

I still want sorcerers to keep there final bloodline power the same.

[Deadmanwalking]

I think the Sorcerer could use some minor retooling (4+Int skills per level, getting Bloodline spells one level earlier...basically some minor stuff to make them a closer equivalent to Oracles), but nothing too big.

Fighter, meanwhile could do with some serious and profound re-writing on a major level, way too much to go into in a sentence or two, but just starting with some actual skill options and at least 4+Int er level, as well as some additional Class Features.

For my House Rules on both (and my full version of the Fighter), see my House Rule Document and attendant Discussion Thread.

[Kudaku]

I think the fighter is currently more or less where the chained monk was before Unchained was released - an extremely underwhelming class in its own right, but a player with access to the right books and a good grasp of optimization can make something decent out of it.

With that said, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing an unchained version that makes the fighter less generic and more approachable for new players.

Unchained sorcerer could be interesting, but I'd personally prefer to see an unchained cleric where the choice of deity more meaningfully impacts how the class plays.

[Aelryinth]

Fighter, definitely.

the armor and weapon feats are little more then a form of feat consolidation and power up for combat...which is the last thing a fighter needs.

Movement options.
Better defenses.
Something to balance the scales against the fact it is the ONLY baseline class with NO magical ability.
More and better skills. There is NO reason why the ranger, who is a spellcaster, gets more of both then the fighter. None at all. You can explain it away for the barb as being uneducated, the paladin as being a caster and relying on faith...but all a fighter does is train and learn. They have to have SOMETHING to make up for not casting.
Narrative power that can affect the campaign, that makes fighters a power in the campaign world for real, rather then a 'yeah, sure' because the spellcasters don't want to do it.
Saying that fighters are great because they have damage output is ignoring everything that is wrong with the fighter.

Sorcerers evening out bloodlines would be nice. Other then that, they don't need anything. They have spells that can sub for skills, they rely on their magic, not their learning, and with feats adn magic items they can get access to all the versatility of a wizard while retaining their excess number of spell slots.

Clerics? Get real. Clerics need NOTHING. They are prepared casters with full access to their entire spell list, without cost. They are a Tier1 class out the door, they don't need improvement. Really, they should be demoted to a d6 1/2 BAB 4skpt caster, and warpriests take over their martial role.

==Aelryinth

[Captain K.]

Kudaku wrote:

I'd personally prefer to see an unchained cleric where the choice of deity more meaningfully impacts how the class plays.

Honestly, Deific Obedience should be a compulsory feat for most Clerics. Difficult for players without the books (which are not all in the same place) so the Unchained concept is not an exact parallel. The obedience does make the Cleric behave in accordance with their god which is good for RP.

Aelyrinth is right about them - were they designed today they would be a d6 1/2 BAB 4skpt caster. Inquisitors and Warpriests and Sentinels do the fighting for the church.

[Aelryinth]

Forcing roleplay motivations on clerics above and beyond vague alignment guidelines?!? The horror.

==Aelryinth

[Captain K.]

Aelryinth wrote:

Forcing roleplay motivations on clerics above and beyond vague alignment guidelines?!? The horror.

==Aelryinth

BUT BUT BUT I want to just worship a concept...*

*invariably trickery and travel domains

[Dasrak]

Quote:

invariably trickery and travel domains

To be fair, those domains do fit well with the murder-hobo lifestyle and credo.

[Kudaku]

Captain K. wrote:

Kudaku wrote:

I'd personally prefer to see an unchained cleric where the choice of deity more meaningfully impacts how the class plays.

Honestly, Deific Obedience should be a compulsory feat for most Clerics. Difficult for players without the books (which are not all in the same place) so the Unchained concept is not an exact parallel. The obedience does make the Cleric behave in accordance with their god which is good for RP.

Deific Obedience is an interesting start, but ideally I'd like to see even more fundamental changes. Maybe something akin to basing the spell list on what domains are available to each deity. A cleric devoted to a goddess of agriculture and a cleric devoted to a god of war really shouldn't have identical spell lists.

[Aelryinth]

That would be a 'chained' cleric, not an Unchained one. :)

The first way you control the power of any casting class is to restrict the spell list.

==Aelryinth

[Anonymous Warrior]

Kudaku wrote:

Captain K. wrote:

Kudaku wrote:

I'd personally prefer to see an unchained cleric where the choice of deity more meaningfully impacts how the class plays.

Honestly, Deific Obedience should be a compulsory feat for most Clerics. Difficult for players without the books (which are not all in the same place) so the Unchained concept is not an exact parallel. The obedience does make the Cleric behave in accordance with their god which is good for RP.

Deific Obedience is an interesting start, but ideally I'd like to see even more fundamental changes. Maybe something akin to basing the spell list on what domains are available to each deity. A cleric devoted to a goddess of agriculture and a cleric devoted to a god of war really shouldn't have identical spell lists.

Well, yeah. However....

[Ms. Pleiades]

Dasrak wrote:

Quote:

invariably trickery and travel domains

To be fair, those domains do fit well with the murder-hobo lifestyle and credo.

Oh my gosh, you're right.

[Grey Lensman]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I think the Sorcerer could use some minor retooling (4+Int skills per level, getting Bloodline spells one level earlier...basically some minor stuff to make them a closer equivalent to Oracles), but nothing too big.

Fighter, meanwhile could do with some serious and profound re-writing on a major level, way too much to go into in a sentence or two, but just starting with some actual skill options and at least 4+Int er level, as well as some additional Class Features.

For my House Rules on both (and my full version of the Fighter), see my House Rule Document and attendant Discussion Thread.

My wishlist for the sorcerer is...

Bloodline spells added to the spells known list at the level they can be cast - sorcerers already have to wait an additional level as it is based on the percieved value of spontaneous casting.

Roll similar bloodlines together and allow for a list of abilities similar to oracle mysteries.

A permanent moratorium on ways wizards can get spontaneous casting - seriously, if it's supposed to be as valuable an ability as is claimed, the presence of ways to hand it to prepared casters is like a big banner with the words "We were lying about that' in huge letters.

[Kudaku]

Aelryinth wrote:

That would be a 'chained' cleric, not an Unchained one. :)

Oh! I see where you went wrong now, I was using the Paizo definition of "unchained" - I thought that was obvious from the context. As evidenced by the updated summoner, it's perfectly possible to "unchain" a class and curb its power level at the same time.

I'm fully aware of the power of the cleric, but I think it's absolutely doable to unchain it from the "generic" feel that has haunted the class since 3.0 and limit the power level of the class at the same time.

I'd love to see the spell list get cut down to a relatively narrow "base spell list" with generic spells like Bless, then add additional spell lists based on what aspect(s) of your deity you choose to focus on (ie what domain(s) you choose). IE the fire domain provides options to make you a decent blaster, the Trickery domain makes you a passable illusionist etc. Throw on four skill points per level and a talent mechanic akin to Oracle Revelations based on what domain you choose and I think we might be onto something.

Unfortunately I doubt that will ever happen. Rewriting the spell list is a monumental effort, especially considering there are 50+ domains and subdomains available. The changes I suggest above will likely also put the cleric in the shadow of the druid and shaman.

[Chengar Qordath]

Kudaku wrote:

Unfortunately I doubt that will ever happen. Rewriting the spell list is a monumental effort, especially considering there are 50+ domains and subdomains available. The changes I suggest above will likely also put the cleric in the shadow of the druid and shaman.

As I recall, one of the devs actually mentioned that. They initially wanted to make domains/deities have a much bigger effect on the spell list and class abilities, but once they realized just how much of a massive (and pagespace-consuming) task it would be they dropped the idea.

[Grey Lensman]

Chengar Qordath wrote:

Kudaku wrote:

Unfortunately I doubt that will ever happen. Rewriting the spell list is a monumental effort, especially considering there are 50+ domains and subdomains available. The changes I suggest above will likely also put the cleric in the shadow of the druid and shaman.

As I recall, one of the devs actually mentioned that. They initially wanted to make domains/deities have a much bigger effect on the spell list and class abilities, but once they realized just how much of a massive (and pagespace-consuming) task it would be they dropped the idea.

Interesting - I wonder if that's also something that got lost in 'backwards compatibility' - perhaps an option could have been to just add the domain spells to the class list like bloodlines and mysteries do rather than the one slot a day deal that things currently have.

[UnArcaneElection]

Grey Lensman wrote:

{. . .}

A permanent moratorium on ways wizards can get spontaneous casting - seriously, if it's supposed to be as valuable an ability as is claimed, the presence of ways to hand it to prepared casters is like a big banner with the words "We were lying about that' in huge letters.

Alternatively, introduce ways for spontaneous casters to get a limited amount of prepared spellcasting (I could have sworn to have seen one, but can't remember what it is called) and make limited use of spellbooks (I don't know of an example of that, but an easy one would be for a spontaneous spellcaster with a Wizard-style Bonded Object to be able to use it just like a Wizard, provided that they can get a spellbook -- this would make the Bonded Object option of the Arcane Bloodline be actually decent, but not overpowered any more than Skald's Spell Kenning, which looks actually more powerful to me).

* * * * * * * *

As for Cleric and related divine classes, here is a copy and paste and partial edit of what I put in another thread:

Cleric is not lacking in power, but lacking in easy ability to be interesting. So:

Caster Cleric = new d6, 1/2 BAB Priest class: 9/9 Cleric spellcasting progression with Arcanist-style hybrid prepared/spontaneous casting; has Domains reworked into hybrids of mini-Arcane-Schools and mini-Mysteries, and gets 3 of them; Channel Energy is not a core class feature, but is a Domain Power of certain Domains (like it is in the Oracle/Shaman Life Mystery/Spirit); likewise, spontaneously casting Cure/Inflict-series spells is not a core class feature, but instead the passive power of certain Domains. I also like the idea of a trimmed down Core Divine spell list that gets multiple spells added per level (not just 1), and otherwise works like a mini-Mystery.(*)

(*)Also do this for the arcane spellcasters.

New (Battle) Cleric (d8, 3/4 BAB): Remix of existing Inquisitor and Warpriest chassis.

New Inquisitor: Prestige class building preferentially off New Cleric (Judgment powered by Divine Fervor; can't think of an alternative right now, but make provision for an alternate way to power it if future divine casting classes get something similar).

New Paladin/Hellknight/Tyrant/Antipaladin/Other Holy Warrior: Set of Prestige classes building preferentially off Cavalier or New Cleric (Smite powered by Challenge or Divine Fervor, respectively), and remixing Paladin/Antipaladin/Hellknight.

Then do something similar for Druid, Hunter, and Ranger.

[Grey Lensman]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Grey Lensman wrote:

{. . .}

A permanent moratorium on ways wizards can get spontaneous casting - seriously, if it's supposed to be as valuable an ability as is claimed, the presence of ways to hand it to prepared casters is like a big banner with the words "We were lying about that' in huge letters.

Alternatively, introduce ways for spontaneous casters to get a limited amount of prepared spellcasting (I could have sworn to have seen one, but can't remember what it is called) and make limited use of spellbooks (I don't know of an example of that, but an easy one would be for a spontaneous spellcaster with a Wizard-style Bonded Object to be able to use it just like a Wizard, provided that they can get a spellbook -- this would make the Bonded Object option of the Arcane Bloodline be actually decent, but not overpowered any more than Skald's Spell Kenning, which looks actually more powerful to me).

That could also work too - it's the presence of one and not the other that makes it so damned glaring.

[My Self]

It would be pretty awesome if a Sorcerer could spend time studying a number of spell levels equal to (level-1)/2, that they could cast as if the spell(s) were spells known. That way, a Sorcerer could get some of the Wizard's daily versatility without becoming both more versatile and more spammable than a Wizard. Cantrips would count as 1/2 a level as normal (and would be available to learn at 2nd level). Bloodline spells would be pushed one level earlier, to the next lowest odd level. So basically, the Sorcerer would get new bloodline spells at 1st, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 18th, and would be able to study/prepare higher spell levels at 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th.

[Dragon78]

I agree, sorcerers should get there bloodline spells when they gain spells of that level.

[MMCJawa]

Fighter sure. Don't really see the need for a unchained Sorceror.

Although at this point, if people want new updated versions of base classes, I think it would overall be better to just release a new core rulebook, rather than have a patchwork of unchained options.

The "give everyone +4 skill points" is already an option in Unchained, IIRC.

[wraithstrike]

If we are really talking about "need" as in can not keep up then no for sorcerers. Would it be nice for them to have some adjustments? Yes.

[Chengar Qordath]

I think I'll echo the general sentiment of the thread:

Fighter could use some consolidation. Right now the class is in a place where you need solid system mastery and knowledge of all the right supplements to really make the class hit its full potential. Getting advanced weapon/armor training, stamina, and all the different fix feats and everything else together in a single coherent package would help a lot.

Sorcerer doesn't need to be unchained, but the class could use some tweaks (bonus spell, skill points).

[Harleequin]

I dont agree with the whole 'give everyone 4+ skill points per level'.... why not just make everyone have D10 HD too ?!?!

[Grey Lensman]

Harleequin wrote:

I dont agree with the whole 'give everyone 4+ skill points per level'.... why not just make everyone have D10 HD too ?!?!

The skill point issue is to prevent players who take classes that aren't either high skill point or high int from becoming the audience when skill checks are needed. Upping HP does nothing about that. It's even worse with some classes, where certain skills are almost a requirement to function in the class, leaving a player with even less.

Of course, as with all things, your mileage may vary based on the group you are in. My group handles things by upping the base stat points and not allowing most items to be crafted by PC's - especially anything that boosts stats.

[Captain K.]

Harleequin wrote:

I dont agree with the whole 'give everyone 4+ skill points per level'.... why not just make everyone have D10 HD too ?!?!

Because skills are vital and some classes have too few to be functional at skills even as intended.

Take a Paladin. 2+ Int skills, and no Paladin has much Int to spare. Maybe 3 with favorite class, but they are front liners who need HP.

With those very few skill points they need a point in Climb, Swim, and Ride to be a mobile and athletic warrior. They are super charismatic and brave warriors so they should be leading armies eventually so a point or two goes into Profession Soldier. High Cha and Diplomacy is a class skill so should probably max it, it's a skill that rewards investment. A point in Know Nobility so the brave knight has any idea about other brave knights. Something in Sense Motive becuase it's a class skill and helps with Diplomacy. Try to get a point or two in Perception so the naive but brave soul isn't totally unaware of what's going on. Enjoy smiting undead? points in Know Religion (class skill) so you know what one is.

How is this doable on 2, 3 points per level? It isn't. You end up with Paladins who know nothing about soldiering, and who can't tell the difference between a Skeleton and a Lich.

It's even worse with the fighter who is meant to be a professional warrior but has nowhere near enough skills to pull it off. Fighters are ideal for the city watch, except the can't watch as they don't have Perception in class nor the skill points to cover it. To be fair, no GM I have played with gives fighters so few skill points because it is so foolish.

[Dragon78]

I still think that all martials should get 6+Int skills, with full casters 4+Int, and skill based classes getting 8+Int(maybe 10+Int for rogues). Classes that do fit into these types should get 4-6+Int skill points.

[Mage of the Wyrmkin]

Some classes are better than skills than others this is how a class system works. Any 2+INT class can have 5 skill points/level with minimal investment (Human, 12 INT, Favored Class bonus). If a player chooses to play a character with low skill points that is his choice not a defect of the system.

[Harleequin]

Fighters cant have everything... the system has changed significantly in recent times to try and improve their lot.

They cant have.... all the HP, all the AC, full BAB, bonus feats, all the archetypes, extra skill points.... etc etc

If they want to be more of a professional soldier then fine... they might have to give up being a death dealing critmachine!!

[wraithstrike]

Harleequin wrote:

Fighters cant have everything... the system has changed significantly in recent times to try and improve their lot.

They cant have.... all the HP, all the AC, full BAB, bonus feats, all the archetypes, extra skill points.... etc etc

If they want to be more of a professional soldier then fine... they might have to give up being a death dealing critmachine!!

Have everything?

They only thing they can do is hit point damage, and they are not even always the best at that.

Barbarians are right with them and sometimes ahead, and they have out of combat utility without having to go into archetypes.

Barbarians can also have a decent AC, and if they go with the cookie-cutter build that boost DR they are ahead better in hit point defense. They can also get higher saves with superstition. They also have more hit points.

The fighter is better at archery, but that is not "everything". It might be the only thing they can claim as being consistently better at than a barbarian.

Overall the fighter is behind rangers, especially when you know hat enemies you will be fighting. Paladins are also ahead, unless the GM goes out of his way to mess with them.

[Lemmy]

Fighters don't have particularly high HP. Their AC isn't that much higher than anyone else's and their feats still pale in comparisson to real class features. They're not even particularly good at fighting... Or at getting criticals. Before 20th level, they don't crit any more often than any other martial class.

And of course... They don't come even close to the versatility of spell casting. Even 4/9 spell casting.

How is getting 4 skill points/level even close to "having it all"?

Don't worry. Fighters are in no danger to become OP any time soon...

[Badblood]

I think the fighter kind of suffers because its a relic that goes all the way back to 1st Edition. In the older edition's fighters had the monopoly on hitting things hard, as there weren't really any other classes that could do that. So if you wanted to play a character that was a tough guy, whether it was a knight, a barbarian, a mercenary, an archer, a samurai, or whatever idea that you had in mind; then fighter was your only option (there were also rangers and paladins, but both of those required a good alignment and fairly steep stat requirements. The Paladin required a 17 Cha for no real reason than just because).

Going into 3rd edition, the fighter kind of kept the role of being a basic warrior; but since then new options were introduced that had more specific flavors and mechanics; while the ranger and paladin were allowed to become more flexible. So now, if you wanted to make a knight in shining armor, the Cavalier is better suited. If you want a character out of Conan, obviously the Barbarian is a better choice. You have a concept to play a deadly bounty hunter or a cynical mercenary? How about Slayer?

So I think that more than boosting up the Fighter's power, I think the class needs an actual CONCEPT, with special abilities that match the flavor of what they're supposed to be. And it would be great if it could be something a little more interesting then the ability to buy into long feat chains and have big numbers to hit and damage. So I really agree that they would benefit from an Unchained version, but more for the same reason that Summoner's were "unchained;" which is to give it the sense of it having a character concept.

[Grey Lensman]

Also back in 1st and 2nd edition fighters had the second best saves at high levels (not so good at lower ones), beaten only by the paladin, who had....fighter saves with a plus 2 bonus. While each class had one save on the tree where they were king, a high level fighter was normally one point behind them, except they had those numbers for all their saves. Now, fighters have some of the weakest saves in the game.

And while the skills systems has certainly grown, back in 2E the skill disparity wasn't there either.

3rd edition, and by extension 3.5 and Pathfinder have not been kind to the class.