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Can a Metamorph Alchemist use his Shapechanger ability and keep Discoveries such as wings active?
Nope, you grew wings, those wings would go away when you changed.
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Edit: Never mind, found it.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.
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Wings is a class ability though, not an ability dependent on your original form.
So you metamorph into some other shape, but you're still an alchemist and you still have the wings discovery that gives you the ability to fly for X minutes per day.
Nope, the wings grow from your body as an EX ability. That makes them dependent on your form.
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Note if you take your mutagen and then transform with feral mutagen, you will lose the claws and bite feral give you. If you take your mutagen after you change you will gain claws/bite on whatever form you currently have and I am not sure what would happen if your mutagen lasts longer than your current Metamorphosis.
So basically you're telling me that all these EX features of a class, just poof out? I think this has greater implications and issues than letting them stay, if possible.
Like yes, a snake doesn't have limbs to have claws. But an orc could, since they have fingers and nails. And in this form, you could apply the class feature to said orc.
I personally thing that is how it should be. If the new form could have the class features applied to it, it should have it.
Cause the Metamorph can only use on of its two main class features at a time, since the second, Adaptive Physiology, is an EX ability that could be argued easily that it requires your organs to be something that could resist the attacks. Since you decided you needed to change from a male orc to a female orc, Blam. No class feature for you.
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Looking at the discovery, the wings are out all the time but you can only use them so many minutes a day. I'm basing this off the use of the word 'gains' instead of a phrase like 'as an X action, the alchemist can grow a set of wings."
Even so, the spell of fly has no need for wings.
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On the bright side, you have basically no need to get the Wings discovery since you're picking up flight from Monstrous Physique I anyways.
Wow,this is certainly a kick in the gut. As if this archetype wasn't terrible enough, now apparently Discoveries can't be used either. Alchemist was a bad choice to serve as the chassis for this archetype, Druid or Hunter would've been a much better fit.
I think it depends on how "depends on form" is interpreted. I think Chameleon and Nauseating Flesh would still work. Preserve Organs would be wasteful because you get those free. Spontaneous Healing would definitely work.
the only metamorph i could find was in the Psionic class not alchemist. is this a cross class thing?
It is from Ultimate Intrigue, which is not yet on any free sources.
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I think it depends on how "depends on form" is interpreted. I think Chameleon and Nauseating Flesh would still work. Preserve Organs would be wasteful because you get those free. Spontaneous Healing would definitely work.Yeah, only good reason to get Preserve Organs is if you're going for Mummify. Though, since so few discoveries seem to be worth getting with this Archetype, it may well be worth getting a useless one to pick up those sweet Mummify immunities.
Lots of discoveries work.
Alchemical Simulacrum
Alchemical Zombie
Celestial Poisons
Chameleon [it's a supernatural power that affect equipment so not form based]
Cognatogen [plus variants]
Concentrate Poison
Dilution
Doppelganger Simulacrum
Elixir of Life
Enhance Potion
Eternal Potion
Extend Potion
Healing Touch
Lingering Spirit
Malignant Poison
Material Mastery
Mutagen [plus variants]
Nauseating Flesh [maybe as it's not listed as ex, sp or su and other forms still have flesh]
Phantom Limb
Poison Conversion
Promethean Disciple
Psychokinetic Tincture
Ranged Baptism
Sandstone Solution
Spontaneous Healing [not limited by form as it can be given out with Healing Touch]
Tumor Familiar
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What bummed me out was it sounded cool but they took away both bombs (half the class) and extracts (the other half of the class) so you've got a shape-changing 3/4 BAB with some negation of crits and sneak attack with light armor proficiency and simple weapons.
Unless I'm really underestimating the value of Monstrous Physique...
What bummed me out was it sounded cool but they took away both bombs (half the class) and extracts (the other half of the class) so you've got a shape-changing 3/4 BAB with some negation of crits and sneak attack with light armor proficiency and simple weapons.
Unless I'm really underestimating the value of Monstrous Physique...
Yep, you're underestimating it. 3/4 BAB is more than enough for natural attacks. off the top of my head...
Monstrous Physique I
gargoyle: Bite 1d4, 2 claws 1d6, gore 1d4. 4 attacks at full BAB, +2 Strength, +2 natural AC, 40' move, fly 30', darkvision 60', freeze.
Monstrous Physique II
4 armed gargoyle: Bite 1d8, 4 claws 1d6, gore 1d4. 6 attacks at full BAB, +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, and +4 natural armor bonus, 40' move, fly 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet. freeze.
Tikbalang: bite 2d4, 2 hooves, pounce, 40' speed, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
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And before you get MP I and II you get alter self, which means stuff like Troglodytes for natural attacks.
I just really, really wish they hadn't lost all their alchemy abilities to become knock-off barbarians/druids.
And before you get MP I and II you get alter self, which means stuff like Troglodytes for natural attacks.
I just really, really wish they hadn't lost all their alchemy abilities to become knock-off barbarians/druids.
Yeah, I agree. They could have left them with ranger type 4 level casting.
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I am entirely positive the intention of the metamorph was to create a spell-less polymorpher, because people have been asking for something like that for a very long time. I know this, because I am one of those people, and I am naturally very happy with the metamorph; leaving the metamorph with any of its spellcasting would have defeated the purpose of the archetype.
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I just really, really wish they hadn't lost all their alchemy abilities to become knock-off barbarians/druids.
Well, according to Paizo, there is no caster/martial disparity, therefor loosing your spellcasting to be better at melee is totally a fair trade.
I like the archetype, but I think it should have some extra benefit. Like Persistent Mutagen at level 1, replacing the totally useless Brew Potion.
I also think that you should get the forms, apart from Alter Self, at the level a wizard gets those spells: MP1 @ 5, MP2 @ 7, MP3 @ 9, MP4 @ 11, GF1 @ 13, GF2 @ 15.
And before you get MP I and II you get alter self, which means stuff like Troglodytes for natural attacks.
Wereboar hybrid form + feral mutagen should work for 4 attacks at level 2, right?
And yet they keep Brew Potion strangely...
The real irony is that the archetype shouldn't even replace bombs - those are a completly seperate class feature from alchemy. The archetype only looses bombs because of text in parentheses that drastically changes the meaning, instead of a clarification or additional information like parentheses should be used. Unless there's some usage in (american) english that I don't know about, that's some really bad writing right there.
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No need for the lycanthropy template! Ragebred skinwalker, Extra Feature racial feat. Feral Mutagen + two hooves and a gore attack. Level two.
I don't think Alchemist was the way to go. Maybe Barbarian, replacing rage powers with Shapeshifting.
Yeah, but I completly deny the existence of the whole Skinwalker race. I mean, seriously, who wrote that s%$@? It doesn't even say if those natural attacks or primary or secondary.
Dammit, Paizo, don't you have editors?
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Arachnofiend: I don't mind a spell-less metamorph but this archetype seems lacking a bit vs a normal alchemist. Maybe it's because I think other classes would fit better for the spell-less polymorpher. For example, a ranger without spell and/or a AC seems a better fit than an alchemist that doesn't use alchemy.
Derklord: You can't use Wereboar hybrid form as you can assume template creatures.
Alchemy: I agree it seems quite odd what they include with alchemy. Everything to this point counts alchemy as a separate feature from bombs,
and mutagen. It seems to be a new invention of this book that they are somehow one feature called Alchemy that alchemy that includes bombs and mutagen.
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I don't have an issue with the idea of a martial shapeshifter, but that's unfortunately not what the developers did here. What they did was take a class that is completely non-functional without its magical abilities, strip it of all those abilities, and replace them with shapeshifting. Problem is, Alchemist is STILL not a martial class: it has terrible weapon and armor proficiencies, no extra feats/talents/anything to add some martial prowess, and doesn't even get any extra skills to compensate. To make matters even worse, the few class abilities left over don't even work right: mutagen is gimped because natural armor doesn't stack with Monstrous Physique, Brew Potion doesn't work because no spellcasting, and the vast majority of discoveries don't apply when you shapeshift. This was just poorly done altogether.
There are a number of classes that would've made a much better chassis for this archetype: Ranger, Hunter, Slayer, Brawler, Barbarian, probably several more that I can't recall right now.
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oh wow, slayer shifter would have been awesome,they even have the tracking/primal hunter feel already... im sad now.
EDIT: im sad enough that i kinda want to homebrew that into existence.
so would you replace slayer talents with like animal forms or something? what kind of action would it be to shift?
(i don't have the new book yet so i haven't actually seen the archetype)
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@Ridiculon: Personally, if I were making the Metamorph a Slayer archetype, I would dump Sneak Attack and 3 of the talents and replace them with the Shapeshifting powers in the metamorph archetype.
@Graystone: a Ranger without spells and Animal Companion, maybe even without Favored Terrain, would make a terrific Metamorph.
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I was also a bit disappointed. I have been playing shapechangers in games from 1st Edition D&D through 4th Ed. and Pathfinder and have yet to find one that really emphasizes the versatility of the shapeshifter concept.
The wild shape equivalent is designed not to turn into something when needed but to pick something stick with it for hours. The only class that really gets the versatility of shapeshifting is the Wizard/Sorceror/Arcanist but the chassis doesn't really fit.
I would love to see a class built on the Druid chassis with wild shape but instead of spells they have a host of abilities (similar in spell by level) that provide new forms for different abilities.
I think this archetype gives up way to much and its own design conflicts with the function of the class that it is just a poor fit.
Take a 2nd level build from this class. Any adventure during the day that occurs after that 2 hour window of shapeshift leaves you with a 3/4 Bab, 1d8 HD with weapon prof and light armor and no real other abilities.
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HeHateMe: The alchemist isn't super bad for this, just bad.
Mutagen: I see Mutagen as your backup for when you're out of shapeshifting so natural armor stacking isn't an issue.
Weapon proficiencies: They too aren't much of an issue as this screams natural weapons. For me, I'd pick a race that already has natural attacks and maybe some natural armor. Get just a single attack and it's even 1.5 strength damage. That way all the same feats/magic items work all the time. Secondly, I'd snag Feral mutagen to get claws/bite to keep up attacks there too.
Discoveries: I think vast is an overstatement. In fact most are not there because of no extracts and bombs and a few more because of form. There are plenty left that work in any form. In fact there are very few discoveries that I can't take that I would have taken of they where an option.
Armor: It sucks, I agree. I'd trade the brew potion to bump it up to at least medium.
Full BAB: This is the biggest issue for me and why I'd have wanted another class have this type of archetype.
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@graystone: Respectfully, I think Alchemist is one of the worst classes to use for this archetype. If they wanted to create a martial shapeshifter, they should've used a martial class for the chassis. If they really wanted to use a 2/3 BAB, 6 lvl caster for the chassis, then Hunter is a much better choice: strip out the AC, spells and teamwork feats, add in shapeshifting and keep Animal Focus and bam, you have a martial shapeshifter that doesn't suck. The only 6 lvl caster I can think of that's a worse fit for this archetype than Alchemist is the Bard.
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If you take Improved Natural Weapons (claws), does it apply to the claws of any form or only (claws, troglodyte), for example.
Can you metamorph into monsters you've never seen? Or only what you have first hand knowledge of like the Skinshaper?
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If they really wanted to use a 2/3 BAB, 6 lvl caster for the chassis, then Hunter is a much better choice: strip out the AC, spells and teamwork feats, add in shapeshifting and keep Animal Focus and bam, you have a martial shapeshifter that doesn't suck.That exists already: Feral Hunter. It's just limited to medium Wild Shape and keeps 6th level spells.
Not really though, because the Feral Hunter can only turn into animals, and that's really dull. The people who are disappointed with the Metamorph want the ability to turn into monsters, that's where the fun is.
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From a balance point, using a 3/4 BAB class isn't bad. I haven't stattet higher levels yet, but the damage on a full attack is really high at lower levels. You are pretty reliant on those full attacks, though.
There are four problems I have with the metamorph:
1. Alchemist without the class-naming ability is really silly. What's next, a fighter who doesn't fight?
2. Short duration mutagen: This bugs me on every martial Alchemist, but Metamorph doesn't even have spells to compensate. Maybe not a problem on a traditional dungeon crawl, it's totally annoying having to spend an hour (curse them for removing swift alchemy) multiple times each day just to do what for instance barbarians get for free. Would at least be partially fixed by getting either Persistant Mutagen, or even better a "swift mutagen" ability that allows them to create mutagens in a few minutes, at level 1 instead of Brew Potion.
3. Dead levels: It's amazing how much this archetype doesn't follow the guidlines to archtype building (see the spoiler below). Your main class ability stalls between level 5 and 9 (although level 6 gives you all day form). Could be fixed by spreading out the forms as I posted above. Yeah, you get Pounce at level 7. So do unchained eidolons, and you more restricted.
Also, especially at low levels, you really have a hard time picking Discoveries.
4. Lack of good forms: Sure, you get flight all day long. And pounce. And cool vision types. And a bunch of other totally strong abilities.
Exept you don't! I have found but three forms with Pounce (one medium, one large, and one large but can only pounce in water). From a pure martial point of view not really a big problems, but I'd expect something more from giving up 6/9th casting.
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I personally like it and the fact that unlike a lot of other shapechanging abilities, metamorph allows you to change your shape without using up a daily use or time - just fatigues you for 1 round afterwards.
As for things like wings and vestigial limbs, I read it as something you add to your body and therefore something that can crossover when you shapeshift, not that you necessarily want it with the options you get.
Keeping brew potion is a weird design choice though.
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Yeah, but I completly deny the existence of the whole Skinwalker race. I mean, seriously, who wrote that s@$*? It doesn't even say if those natural attacks or primary or secondary.
Dammit, Paizo, don't you have editors?
It doesn't need to say if they are primary or secondary, that is determined by the type of attack as defined in the natural attacks section of the bestiary.
I know, but nearly everything that gives natural attacks to PCs does. I'm all for concise language, but I'd expect the editors to ensure some consistency.
But really, that's the least of my problems with that race (and wereboar-kin are the worst). Like how every single race with normal stat modifiers - exept changelings - get one +2 one a physical and one +2 on a mental stat; and then there comes the ragebred with +2str, +2con and a -2 to everyone's favourite dump stat. Or how skinwalkers are supposed to be some lycanthrope light with the ability to change into some sort of hybrid, yet wereboar-kin have hoof attacks that neither any other boar nor wereboars have.
I personally like it and the fact that unlike a lot of other shapechanging abilities, metamorph allows you to change your shape without using up a daily use or time - just fatigues you for 1 round afterwards.
As for things like wings and vestigial limbs, I read it as something you add to your body and therefore something that can crossover when you shapeshift, not that you necessarily want it with the options you get.
Keeping brew potion is a weird design choice though.
I may be wrong, but I believe the shapeshifting abilities are daily use abilities. 1/day at 1st level, 2/day at 4th, and one more use per day every other level.
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Actually if the ability was at will, unlimited duration it might just work out. That would provide the flexibility of shapes in return for losing pretty much everything else the alchemist gets.
Consider at level 1 you don't have bombs, extracts or anything but 1 hour per day alter self and a mutagen.
Instead imagine you had Alter Self at will. Grab small forms for sneaking, other races for disguise options, lizard folk and trogs for natural attacks, lots of options open up.
At 5th level you have Monstrous Physique 1. Now you have access to a variety of movement modes when you need it, a variety of shapes for different sensory abilities. Switching will still have the effect of leaving you fatigued, which is a great balance for in combat use but still pretty good class.
At 9th you add Monstrous Physique to your abilities (I think this is a bit late personally) giving you a few things like pounce and grab, but like 3 level later than druids.
At 11th level you get some neat abilities again but it is fairly late in the game for them. I wish they would have really allowed access to these, unlimited, at the following break points:
4th Level gain Monstrous Physique 1 (Druids are getting Wild Shape)
6th Level Monstrous Physique 2
8th Level Monstrous Physique 3
10th level Monstrous Physique 4
12th level Giant Form 1
14th Level Persistent Mutagen
16th Level Giant Form 2
18th Additional Stat boost of some kind, like the arcanist/transmuter ability.
I would also add either feats or in class abilities to increase the speed of the shift from Standard to Move to Swift to Free to Immediate at odd level with Immediate being the capstone ability. I would also allow all mutagen and alchemical discovery abilities to carry over to the form and allow the preserve organs ability to increase the crit/sa resistance given by 10 - 15%.
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I may be wrong, but I believe the shapeshifting abilities are daily use abilities. 1/day at 1st level, 2/day at 4th, and one more use per day every other level.I personally like it and the fact that unlike a lot of other shapechanging abilities, metamorph allows you to change your shape without using up a daily use or time - just fatigues you for 1 round afterwards.
As for things like wings and vestigial limbs, I read it as something you add to your body and therefore something that can crossover when you shapeshift, not that you necessarily want it with the options you get.
Keeping brew potion is a weird design choice though.
You get multiple uses per day, yes, however it specifically states that you can change form as a standard action at any time during that duration. So by level 6 or so you have 3 uses of 6h which equates to a full day almost of being whatever you want, whenever you want.