Found another Fighter archetype that I somehow missed on the previous go-around (and when adding this one, also add Sensate, posted earlier in this thread).
Siegebreaker (Dip Versatility +0, Power +1; Full Versatility +0, Power +0): For a Dip of 1 level, Breaker Rush is like getting Improved Bull Rush and Improved Overrun for the price of 1 Bonus Combat Feat, and it even stacks a little bit with the actual feats (which you will need if you want the Greater versions of these feats). For a dip of 2 levels, you get to do a free Improved Overrun in all but name (again stacking a little bit with the actual feat) if you succeed at a Bull Rush (Breaker Momentum) -- this is worth losing the first rank of Bravery for a worse ability (Armored Vigor, which gives you an average of 1/2 Hit Point per level -- definitely less useful than Bravery, even though that isn't stellar itself). For Full Progression, though, losing Bravery for Armored Vigor hurts; the other tradeoffs are decent, but do not really make up for this. At least you get to keep both Armor Training (and Armor Mastery) and Weapon Training (but not Weapon Mastery), so when the Armor Master's Handbook comes out, as with the Weapon Master's Handbook, this archetype may become better to most other Fighter archetypes (which trade out Armor Training and Weapon Training).
The true strength of this archetype is that it stacks with so many others most notably mutation warrior or whatever it's name is... but it is only really interesting for very specific builds.
I also disagree with your assesement of armored vigor. It's a swift action and can be used multiple times per combat so it really significantly ups your survivability.
Repost, just cause I can.Obligatory link to the document!
It is convenient to have atleast one link at each page (preferably at the top), but it is rather tedious to keep posting it. Maybe a forum admin could edit the original post with the link?
And by the way, I've noticed that every archetype except the Alchemist's are written with centered text. Do you guys prefer the text to the left, or centered?
The Dread Vanguard archetype for Antipaladins should be listed. By giving up the ability to cast spells from the very, very weak antipaladin spell list you get extra touch of corruption usage. You also get an amazing +1 aura morale bonus to pretty much everything for you and your group within the radius. Additionally the aura keeps getting stronger the higher up you go as an antipaladin.
Frankly, there's no reason to ever play a vanilla antipaladin over this archetype. It really is that amazing. I have played this archetype in several campaigns and it is a beast.
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I have to add that the link to the google doc should be added to the original post by a mod.
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Also, this thread should be a sticky considering how important archetypes are in making characters.
They aren't worth what the Dread Vanguard does. Trust me, I played vanilla AP for years until someone on here led me to the light..er, dark. :OP
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I also disagree with your assesement of armored vigor. It's a swift action and can be used multiple times per combat so it really significantly ups your survivability.
Noted, but this is still going to save you only going to save you a fairly small number of hit points until you get way up, at which point both you and your opponents will be doing massive amounts of damage, and if you get scared and run away, your party will lose more damage output from you (and more meat shield service from you) than even the 50 extra hit points you could have at level 20 with Constitution 14 (as a typical example). It gets worse if you get Shaken and then, being thus impaired, blow another Will Save and get Charmed or Dominated as a result. Of course, if everybody manages to load up with Belts of Constitution from the local Lord Waldmart's, this ability could get significantly better.
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For convenient reference in adding this to the Fighter section of the guide, here is avr's rating of Sensate Fighter, followed by my comments:
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Sensate (Dip vers 0, power -1; Full vers +1, power 0): As a dip the save bonuses are similar to bravery, and trading heavy armor/tower shield prof for a better class skill list is only mildly worse. The sensate's replacement for weapon training 2-4 is more friendly to those who like to use different weapons than the standard version, and keeping weapon training 1 lets the archetype benefit from bonuses which apply only to that feature. The armor training replacements are a little more powerful and certainly more interesting.
{. . .}
I would add that strangely, the Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge are Supernatural instead of Exceptional, meaning that you're out of luck in an Antimagic Field or Dead Magic area -- depending upon how often these come up (or your party needs to use them), this could actually make a significant difference, and hurts one of the Fighter's strengths, of not needing Magic for class abilities. Not saying that this is wrong, but something to keep in mind when choosing an archetype. Another oddity is that Fear is not one of the things that prevents you from using Centered Senses, although the transition into a state of Fear will often cause this (and Rules As Written, a No Save Fear effect is potentially less bad than one with a Save, because the conditions that cause you to lose your Centered State do not include Shaken or Frightened, but DO include failing a Will Save. Finally, situationally, Guarded Senses could be better than Bravery -- this is campaign-specific.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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ORACLE!
Ancient Lorekeeper: pow +2, vrs +2; The wizard spell list is arguably the best in the game, and clearly better than what pretty much every mystery offers as bonus spells. As there are basically no drawbacks to this archetype, every elf or half-elf should take this.
Black-Blooded: pow +0, vrs +1; This is less of an archetype and more an extra set of revelations; more choice is always good. Black blood spray is decent for a melee character. Dark resilience is good at higher levels. Darkvision is probably not worth the slot. The curse is problematic if channel energy is your main source of healing, though.
Commmunity Guardian: pow -1, vrs -1; This halfling archetype grants a pretty bad spell list, and two very weak but mandatory revelations. If you want an ability like this, just take the life revelation's channel ability, it's much better.
Dual-Cursed: pow +2, vrs +1; Again, basically an extra set of revelations. Misfortune is an extremely powerful ability, and you can find a secondary curse that offers only minor drawbacks.
Elementalist: pow -1, vrs -1; Another extra set of revelations. That said, it has mediocre bonus spells and its mandatory first revelation is pretty weak. The abilities at level 11 can easily be obtained with your spells, and at lower level too. Even the capstone is not very good.
Enlightened Philosopher: pow +0, vrs +1; Getting all knowledges on your list is pretty good, as is the slowly growing bonus to intelligence, and the capstone is excellent. You don't lose a lot for taking this, but you may end up with worse bonus spells than your mystery would give you.
Planar Oracle: pow +0, vrs -1; The bonus spells and the mandatory revelation are pretty weak; the capstone is not all that impressive either. This archetype simply doesn't do a lot.
Possessed: pow +1, vrs -1; Here, the bonus spells are a mixed bunch, but Screech in particular is pretty good. The revelation you must take is not so great at the start, but can be a life saver at level 7 and up.
Psychic Searcher: pow +0, vrs +2; Finally, an archetype with real alternate abilities! Inspiration provides a great bonus to your skills, and there are some good investigator abilities you can take at level 3, such as empathy or inspired alertness. The downside is that the bonus spells are very situational.
Purifier: pow +1, vrs -1; You gain some good bonus spells, but the mandatory revelations are pretty bad (your armor weighs half as much, seriously?!). The holy terror ability at level 9 is pretty good though, considering that fighting evil outsiders is a common theme in many campaigns. Of course, this is only for aasimar.
Reincarnated: pow -1, vrs -1; Another one to skip; weak bonus spells and two mandatory revelations that are passable but not very good. Samsaran only.
Seeker: pow +1, vrs +1; You gain trapfinding and a very good bonus to concentration and spell resistance checks. The seeker magic ability is very good, but comes online pretty late, and there are traits with the same effect.
Seer: pow +1, vrs -1; Yep, it's another mystery-disguised-as-archetype. The bonuses from natural divination are pretty good, the bonus spells not so much.
Shigenjo: pow -1, vrs -1; Only for tengu. You gain a ki pool at level 7, but you don't actually gain any of the abilities that make a ki pool good, such as a monk's extra attack or a ninja's vanishing trick. Quivering palm is pretty weak compared to cleric spells at that level, and the only real gem on the bonus spell list (divine power) is already on your list anyway. So overall, not very impressive.
Spirit Guide: pow +1, vrs +2; You gain access to any hex from the shaman's spirit list, and can pick a different one each day. How this interacts with the Extra Hex feat is unclear, but regardless it is a huge boost to your versatility.
Stargazer: pow +1, vrs -1; Just for once, an archetype with a very good bonus spell list, and adding perception to your list is always useful. However, the two mandatory revelations are not very good, as you probably won't be adventuring outdoors at night very often.
Warsighted: pow +0, vrs +1; You lose a number of revelations in exchange for the brawler's flexible feat. For the more martially inclined oracles, this is a decent boost, especially as many mysteries will eventually run out of good revelations to pick.
Monk of the Healing Hand deserves a demerit for having the ABSOLUTE WORST capstone of any archetype of any class. A self-destruct that overrides the power of even a deity to reverse, while NOT overriding the power of a deity to reverse the accompanying resurrection of your friends, AND nobody can even remember what you did? Give me a break.
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Unchained Monk is going to have to get its own archetype list. Only a couple of Unchained-Monk-compatible archetypes exist now, but Unchained Monk section should be put in the document.
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I see that Siegebreaker got into the document, but I also see that I made a typo in it -- "this archetype may become better to most other" should be "this archetype may become better compared to most other" (near the end).
Also, Sensate archetype of Fighter (main contribution from avr) still isn't in there (I compiled this in my previous post).
Monk of the Healing Hand deserves a demerit for having the ABSOLUTE WORST capstone of any archetype of any class. A self-destruct that overrides the power of even a deity to reverse, while NOT overriding the power of a deity to reverse the accompanying resurrection of your friends, AND nobody can even remember what you did? Give me a break.
...
[snark]What are you talking about. Being able to reroll as a 9th level caster with roughly 1 million GP in gear is totally broken. And that's not even taking into account the ability to erase all knowledge of the monk's name(assuming the player *did* name the monk after Asmodeus or another big wheel in the setting). [/snark]
Monk of the Healing Hand deserves a demerit for having the ABSOLUTE WORST capstone of any archetype of any class. A self-destruct that overrides the power of even a deity to reverse, while NOT overriding the power of a deity to reverse the accompanying resurrection of your friends, AND nobody can even remember what you did? Give me a break.
At least you can still be the target of enlarge person, sooo... still better than core monk's capstone? ;-)
Regarding Monk of the Four Winds: Note that you can get Shadow Step via Qing Gong in exchange for Diamond Soul at level 13 (or 11, if you for some reason don't take restoration or ki leech then), which is rather similar to DD. If only Slow Time didn't have that retarded "you can't combine this with your class's main ability because we are paizo and we utterly hate monks"-wording!
As an add on to the cleric list...
Appeaser
-2, -2
Unless you have an incredibly niche character idea for a campaign..... completely terrible!
I don't know about this. You lose way too much going from Abundant Step to Shadow Step. Being limited to dim light conditions is quite a bit, being able to teleport as a move action is great for action economy, and going Shadow Step locks you out of Dimensional Agility/Assault/Dervish. It's just too much of a downgrade, even for Slow Time.
Fair enough. My problem with the Dimensional Dervish line is that it doesn't get good until level 17 (can you combine Dimensional Assault with Pummeling charge? That would lower it to lvl15).
I guess I just like the archetype for the fabulous hair!
^Fabulous hair sounds like White-Haired Witch . . .
Looks like the Advanced Weapon Training feat is now on www.d20pfsrd.com, and was just left out for a long time by mistake. This feat still isn't on Archives of Nethys (it says on their front page that they haven't gotten through with the Weapon Master's Handbook yet), and as far as I know is not on the actual Paizo PRD (I don't think that book will be going in there). This feat makes the Weapon Master Fighter archetype not be obsolete -- I will have to do a new review of that archetype later. By the way, this feat also makes archetypes of other things that also receive the Weapon Training class feature (such as Myrmidarch Magus and VMC Fighter) a lot better.
Cleric still hasn't been converted to the new format yet? I'll leave the reasoning of the original contributor unchanged unless my opinion differs substantially.
Asmodean Advocate
Power 0
Versatility +1
Cloistered Cleric
Power -2
Versatility -2
Crusader
Versatility -1
Power -1
Devilbane Priest
Versatility -1
Power 0
Devout Pilgrim
Versatility 0
Power 0
Differing opinion: While this archetype has numerous restrictions they are all fairly easy to work around. If it fits your build, this archetype works just fine.
Divine Strategist
Power +1
Versatility -1
Ecclesitheurge
Power -1
Versatility +1
Herald Caller
Power +1
Versatility +1
Hidden Priest
Power -1
Versatility -1
Iron Priest
Power 0
Versatility 0
Merciful Healer
Power -1
Versatility -1
Roaming Exorcist
Power 0
Versatility -1
Scroll Scholar
Power 0
Versatility 0
Differing opinion: While the benefits are sparse, the penalties can be worked around rather easily. It's not a great archetype, but it's workable.
Separatist
Power 0
Versatility 0
Differing Opinion: This archetype is difficult to rank due to the fact that its usefulness is setting-specific. In a setting with a small number of deities and a ban on non-theistic clerics, it could easily be +1/+2 for allowing normally-illegal domain combinations. In settings with non-theistic Clerics allowed, or in a setting like Golarion where there's a huge pantheon to pick from, it's a lot less appealing.
Theologian
Power +1
Versatility 0
Undead Lord
Power -1
Versatility -1
Differing Opinion: This archetype has severe issues. The corpse companion is laughably weak and not even worth the downtime to replace when it dies. While unlife healer is a useful ability, it's not worth the draconian domain restrictions and was made obsolete in the same book it was published in by the variant channeling options that essentially duplicate its only redeeming class feature.
And since they were never done, racial archetypes:
Fiendish Vessel (Tiefling)
Power +1
Versatility +1
While this archetype is only useful for capital-E Evil clerics, it basically has no downsides. The deity and domain lock-in is basically the only tradeoff, and if that doesn't bother you then there's really no downside to be had.
Demonic Apostle (Drow)
Power 0
Versatility -1
There's a nasty lock-in here on domain, but otherwise the benefits are fairly reasonable and a familiar is always nice.
Forgemaster (Dwarf)
Power -1
Versatility -1
This archetype is awesome for crafting weapons and armor and not much else. This is the archetype is wonderful for NPC's but simply ill suited for a PC.
While redoing my rating of the Weapon Master archetype of Fighter, I noticed that www.d20pfsrd.com is still missing some relevant information -- notably Weapon Mastery feats and the Martial Focus feat. Text in the last paragraph of the Advanced Weapon Training feat references these, but they are not available on the site (and as noted in my previous post, Archives of Nethys has not gotten around to the Weapon Master's Handbook yet). Anyway, here's my re-rating of this archetype, based upon the information that is available:
Weapon Master (Dip vers +0, power -1; Full vers -1, power +0 to +1): For a Dip, the 1st rank of Weapon Guard is probably somewhat less useful than Bravery, especially if you are in a Fear-heavy campaign or plan to do Psychic Spellcasting; for a Dip up to 3rd level, getting Weapon Training instead of Armor Training is potentially helpful, but it only applies to 1 weapon instead of a whole Weapon Group (so it semi-upgrades this archetype to Dip vers -1, power +1). For Full progression, the early Weapon Training is not as good as it looks -- although you get the full basic bonus progression of Weapon Training 2 levels early, by default (but see below) you get no more actual ranks of Weapon Training to use for Advanced Weapon Training, and your Weapon Training still applies to just 1 weapon instead of 1 Weapon Group. You do keep Weapon Mastery and get some benefits that improve your Criticals, and all the way up at 19th level, you get a Standard Action Touch Attack that ignores Damage Reduction and Hardness, apparently unlimited times per day, and apparently without sacrificing anything this high level (strangely, you keep Armor Mastery, even though you lose all ranks of Armor Training). Therefore, this archetype could be great for a Critical Fisher (upgrades to vers -1, power +1 to +2). The thing that saves this archetype from being obsoleted by the Weapon Master's Handbook is the Advanced Weapon Training feat that most Fighters can take every 5 levels starting at 5th level, but that Weapon Master Fighters can take in place of regular Bonus Combat Feats starting at 4th level, without counting against the limit of taking it no more than once every 5 Fighter levels, although as a Weapon Master, you only get to apply the benefits of these Advanced Weapon Training options to your one weapon of choice, rather than to all weapons in its Weapon Group (even when the text of the Advanced Weapon Training option would appear at a glance to be weapon-independent, such as Armed Bravery). This will eat even further into your versatility by eating up a significant fraction of your feats, but you can get REALLY GOOD with your one weapon, replacing those feats with more Advanced Weapon Training options than normal Fighters would be able to get -- hence the somewhat smeared ratings for both versatility and power for Full progression, depending upon just how much of this tradeoff you make, and how much you are into Critical Fishing; the ability to adjust this tradeoff keeps this archetype from going to -2 versatility, despite the lock-in to one weapon and the decrease in the sum of Bonus Combat Feats and Advanced Weapon Training options (even though the latter number can be higher than for a standard Fighter).
I'd say versatility is a -1, not a -2. You lose a spell slot a day, but it gives you the option to play musical chairs with your domains and spontaneously cast from them, which is nice. It'll hurt the most with a dip, but at later levels, when you can use it multiple times a day and heal the charisma damage, you'll do better. Also, channeling positive, even at a reduced amount, is nice to have and lets you pick up certain positive energy feats (Turn undead has no HD cap) or heal the party at the end of the adventuring day.
Disagree..... the channel ability is so minor as to be useless. Bear in mind:
1) Channeling is a sub-par ability anyway
2) The Appeaser ability is a full round action.... poor economy
3) It operates at 2D6 less... so realistically the small amount of use will only come online at 10th level anyway
Also:
1) Appeaser cannot cast any good or evil spells....
2)Modified domain - leaving aside the CHA damage, its a minutes per use ability and any domain abilities can only be used once per time, irrespective of how many times you would ordinarily be able to use them!
Yes you can spontaneously cast the spells but all things considered the standard domain options are far simpler and more effective.
I stand by my original assessment -2,-2... its almost as bad as the Cloistered Cleric!!
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Only just started looking at this document but was surprised when I saw Pact Wizard listed as bad. At the very least you get a free Improved Familiar feat (+1 power) but you must select a familiar (-1 versatility). It is also one of the very few ways to get the aura class feature which can be interesting.
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Okay, here is the first part of my second pass at the Monk.
You seem to be very keen to hand out +2 power ratings.
By definition +2 indicates archetypes that are strictly superior to alternatives. But we have 10 Archetype with a +2 power rating so maybe you should tone some of those down a bit.
It really seems like the only Monk Archetype that deserves a +2 in Power (other than maybe the Qinggong if that actually counts as an archetype when it's something every monk should take always) is the Zen Archer Monk.
Like the Tetori can be really good, but let's calibrate our scale for the monk by putting the high end at the one thing we know is really powerful. Unless it's a monk archetype that is as powerful or nearly as powerful as the ZAM, it probably only deserves a +1.
Like Tetori: +1 Power/-1 Versatility seems just right to me- you're limited to one trick, you're very good at it, and it's a very good trick, but it's not the best trick (there may well be things that you cannot or do not want to grapple.)
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To be honest I really dont like how "power" and "versatility" are used in the definitions of the archetypes....
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hiQ4naLEsyVU81YRDJIP6yjAcFMIjMfpFZ6O_Cr bJC0/pub#id.5v4akp5gzc28
I believe Feral Hunter over a 20 level class is a -3/-3. After level 8, they don't get another class feature until level 17. However, a 2 level dip into Feral Hunter is a +1/+1. Feral Focus + Precise Shot + Wild Empathy + Divine Spellcasting = nice for archer builds.
(Feral Focus is a buff with an infinite duration that can be switched as a swift action, the options are : +2 dex, +2 str, +2 con, darkvision, scent, +4 perception, +4 swim/acrobatics (jump), +4 climb, evasion, +5 speed, +2 attack to aoos/+2 AC against aoos.)
Perhaps the solution would be to rate every base class on (say) a 10 point scale and then consider how the archetypes would change their rating on that 10 point scale?
That way, the 3/10 monk getting a lot of +2 archetypes and the 8/10 Wizard getting few +2 archetypes wouldn't seem like we're saying the Monk is better than the Wizard in any shape, way, or form.
But I imagine that might be acrimonious.
I really hate to say it in this manner but... yes, I was comparing to the Core Monk. As I mentioned in my opening the second go round, the Core Monk abilities are AWFUL. It's not hard to be "superior" to them. You'll also notice that only a quarter or so receive negative ratings. Same reasoning.By definition +2 indicates archetypes that are strictly superior to alternatives. But we have 10 Archetype with a +2 power rating so maybe you should tone some of those down a bit.Or maybe core monk is just sort of awful.
How do you code the spoiler and the drop down list into a post?
I really hate to say it in this manner but... yes, I was comparing to the Core Monk. As I mentioned in my opening the second go round, the Core Monk abilities are AWFUL. It's not hard to be "superior" to them. You'll also notice that only a quarter or so receive negative ratings. Same reasoning.By definition +2 indicates archetypes that are strictly superior to alternatives. But we have 10 Archetype with a +2 power rating so maybe you should tone some of those down a bit.Or maybe core monk is just sort of awful.
This is where our disagreement stems from... I|d side with possible Cabbage here...
And seriously you assigned a plus 2 to monk of the lotus because stunning fist is soo bad but touch of serenity is way better cause it has the same crappy DC but doesnt deal any damage...
Only just started looking at this document but was surprised when I saw Pact Wizard listed as bad. At the very least you get a free Improved Familiar feat (+1 power) but you must select a familiar (-1 versatility). It is also one of the very few ways to get the aura class feature which can be interesting.
A bonus feat isn't worth +1 power, at least not on its own. There just isn't enough here to merit any plus ranking, and having to take an extra opposition school costs it on the versatility side. Maybe if there was more you could do with the aura class feature it might salvage the archetype, but there's precious little aside from qualify from sacred summons.
You seem to be very keen to hand out +2 power ratings.
By definition +2 indicates archetypes that are strictly superior to alternatives. But we have 10 Archetype with a +2 power rating so maybe you should tone some of those down a bit.
Agreed, both +2 and -2 are extremes. That should be used sparingly.
I believe Feral Hunter over a 20 level class is a -3/-3
There's no need for a ranking lower than -2, which basically says "this archetype doesn't even function". Getting -2 on both sides in general is a stern warning to steer clear.
How do you code the spoiler and the drop down list into a post?
The tags are called "spoiler" and "list" respectively. You can just quote someone's post and look at the formatting.
Perhaps the solution would be to rate every base class on (say) a 10 point scale and then consider how the archetypes would change their rating on that 10 point scale?
That way, the 3/10 monk getting a lot of +2 archetypes and the 8/10 Wizard getting few +2 archetypes wouldn't seem like we're saying the Monk is better than the Wizard in any shape, way, or form.
But I imagine that might be acrimonious.
I strongly disagree; this brings up a whole new layer of subjectivity and would be incredibly clunky for little gain. I think there's broad agreement over the general Pathfinder tier list, and that archetypes in general do not change a class's position on that list. To me, this is an acknowledgement that comparing wizard to monk is like comparing the golden Apples of the Hesperides or oranges. I don't feel that's within the scope of this guide, and that archetypes should be ranked based on a comparison with the vanilla class.
Will Save vs Fort save makes a huge difference on the front line. As well, ToS extends beyond a single round for MotL. It's a clear upgrade.
Sure high Fort saves are more common than high WIL saves.
However your logic: if the monk fights on the front lines all he cares about is the opponents Wil save is highly flawed.
Stunning Fist actually makes you good at going after soft targets (against which you are generally better due to your awesome saves and mobility and your crappy AC and HPs). If a monk gets adjacent to a caster he can easily lock him out of an entire combat (and likely kill him in short order). That's not gonna work so well with Touch of Serenity.
Additionally Touch of Serenity has a few other disadvantages compared to stunning fist. a) it deals no damage b) targets can still move (or use spell like abilities) ergo you can't lock them up as you could with stunning fist. c) Targets of Stunning fist take a massive penalty to AC d) targets of stunning fist drop all items held.
Ergo Touch of Serenity is not a clear upgrade as there exist situations in which stunning fist is superior to Touch of Serenity and the base effect of stunning fist (prior to level 6) is superior as well.
Also another argument on removing the amount of +2 in your ratings is Archetype stacking. Picking an archetype means you have way less possibility of selecting other Archetypes, thus every Archetype has an opportunity cost and thus logically not every second archetype can have a +2 rating as some are better than others.
I strongly disagree; this brings up a whole new layer of subjectivity and would be incredibly clunky...
I think the issue is here that when I see an archetype bump a class up to a higher tier, that's worth a +1. When an archetype bumps a class up multiple tiers, I can't help but see that as a +2.
So a vanilla Monk is a tier 6 class, but a Zen Archer monk is roughly on the same level as a Ranger, so that's tier 4. So that's an easy +2.
By this standard you're going to get a lot fewer +2 archetypes for Oracles and Sorcerers since they're already way up there.
Perhaps the solution would be to rate every base class on (say) a 10 point scale and then consider how the archetypes would change their rating on that 10 point scale?
That way, the 3/10 monk getting a lot of +2 archetypes and the 8/10 Wizard getting few +2 archetypes wouldn't seem like we're saying the Monk is better than the Wizard in any shape, way, or form.
But I imagine that might be acrimonious.
You dont need to rate the base class - but every base class has to provide the benchmark against which an archetype is rated.
If an archetype has one thing that it can do really well that shouldnt by default mean they get a +1 "power" rating.
Most archetypes by their definition should be -1 or -2 in terms of versatility since most focus on becoming significantly better at a specific aspect of the original base class at the expense of other aspects.
I think 1 overall figure is better based purely on the concept of:
What it gains vs What is loses
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I think the issue is here that when I see an archetype bump a class up to a higher tier, that's worth a +1. When an archetype bumps a class up multiple tiers, I can't help but see that as a +2.
I don't agree. By that logic, a tier-1 class couldn't have archetypes worth +1 or +2, since it's already in the highest tier.
Just because the monk sucks doesn't mean most of its archetypes are great. The +2 to -2 ratings have clear definitions given in this thread, that are unrelated to the tier rating.
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JAM, i just wanna tell you. That Mr. Miyagi build is awesome, both in flavor and mechanics. Really great stuff. I've almost never seen a Monk of the Lotus, but it's got a cool Stunning Fist replacement.
I strongly disagree; this brings up a whole new layer of subjectivity and would be incredibly clunky...I think the issue is here that when I see an archetype bump a class up to a higher tier, that's worth a +1. When an archetype bumps a class up multiple tiers, I can't help but see that as a +2.
There are very few archetypes that I would consider good/bad enough to actually cause a class to move even a single tier, and none that I would consider good enough to move two tiers. Of the ones I've ranked, Razmiran Priest is the only one significant enough that I would consider it to actually change its class's tier (T2->T1).
To be honest I really dont like how "power" and "versatility" are used in the definitions of the archetypes....
I agree. I like the blue/green/orange/red color scheme that is pretty much the standard for grading out classes or archetypes.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I like the blue/green/orange/red color scheme that is pretty much the standard for grading out classes or archetypes.
Basically,
pow + vrs >= 3 means blue
pow + vrs >= 1 means green
pow + vrs >= -2 means orange
pow + vrs <= -3 means red
(and yes, it may be useful to colorcode it that way).
I agree. I like the blue/green/orange/red color scheme that is pretty much the standard for grading out classes or archetypes.
Well, Purple/Blue/Green/Orange/Red or Blue/Green/Black/Orange/Red are five bins, and +2/+1/0/-1/-2 is five bins so they're really the same thing, you're just assigning a number to a color.
The problem I think is that unlike power, "versatility" is kind of ambiguous. An archetype being called versatile could potentially mean:
- This archetype enables a new strategy that was not previously available to this class.
- This archetype allows for a greater variety of strategies than would otherwise be available to this class.
- This archetype enables you to build a character that can do a lot of different things.
But those aren't all the same. Most archetypes should be a - in versatility, since they're generally of the form "you're giving up general abilities, to be better at one specific thing" (e.g. a gunslinger can use both pistols and muskets, but a pistolero and a musketeer can use only one or the other effectively, but is better at this thing than the base class), and we shouldn't see this as a bad thing because "this archetype enables me to do what I want my character to be able to do" vastly outweighs "this archetype is narrow". A Tetori is never going to be a decent archer, but if you wanted a monk who uses a bow you should have chosen a Sohei or a Zen Archer instead (or really any other archetype that gives you proficiency with a bow.) So I'm really sort of questioning the value of rating versatility at all- is there any situation where "this archetype is versatile" or "this archetype is not versatile" would influence your decision about an archetype?