Once again thank you everyone for contributing so far and getting this to 100 posts. Please be sure to check the link for the list if you have not already, I would love to make more improvements if possible.
I have tried to make sure to credit people when possible, if I have not, please let me know. I may also take some time to weigh in, and maybe help aggregate some scores together.
Working on Ranger and about half way through I might find time tomorow but I'm very busy with work and RL so I might not get around to finishing before the weekend.
Working on Ranger and about half way through I might find time tomorow but I'm very busy with work and RL so I might not get around to finishing before the weekend.
Glad to hear it! Don't worry about the timetable mate, collaboration doesn't need to be rushed.
So, if I wanted to dispute this ranking system or several of the ranking themselves, what would be the process?
Also, if you give me editing rights, I can reformat this into a nicer looking doc.
Currently it looked like it was going to range from -2 to +2. I assumed then it would be Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue in that order if we want to use colors. Finding it difficult to orientate the sheet so it looks more like a word document. I can spend some time getting the format more consistent though if that is a big thing. If you want to comment or dispute, leave a comment on the sheet or here on what you believe the Power and Versatility ratings should be. Make it more aggregate.
Well the Find and Replace option is awful in Docs. Looks like manual font recoloring it is!
Magus archetype commentary:
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Elemental Knight does not stack with Eldritch Scion, contra UAE, as they both replace Spell Recall. As such I wouldn't recommend the former even to a Suli magus.
You're right -- I got confused because for some weird reason Eldritch Scion still has Improved Spell Recall.
So, if I wanted to dispute this ranking system or several of the ranking themselves, what would be the process?
Also, if you give me editing rights, I can reformat this into a nicer looking doc.
Sorry to overlook this portion. For disputing a ranking, simply leave a suggestion. I am assuming that as more people dispute, or agree to a ranking, that we can get a general aggregate ranking of the archetype. So say we have one that has +1, +1, -1, -1 , -1, +2, 0, +2.
To err on the side of caution, since there are 4 positive scores, 1 neutral and 3 negative, we can assume the archetype is positive. Since the positives and neutral skew it towards being good but not great, we would say it probably is a +1 in whatever that score was for.
I'd say Eldritch Scion is a -2/-2 archetype. It's awful and only improves to "bad" at 8th level. Terrible archetype. A waste of a good idea.
I'd say Eldritch Scion is a -2/-2 archetype. It's awful and only improves to "bad" at 8th level. Terrible archetype. A waste of a good idea.
This. Really don't understand what Kurald sees in it. Maybe he should write a guide.
^That is what I was saying as well.
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For Eldritch Scion, the big problems that I see are that before 8th level, you can only use Spell Combat while in Mystic Focus (and Improved and Greater Spell Combat are really delayed, in exchange for . . . Um . . . ?), which costs Eldritch Pool points, and that for the other most-used benefit that Eldritch Pool provides, your Bloodrager Bloodline Powers, each Eldritch Pool point lasts only 2 rounds, which will eventually be okay, but would be really painful at the low levels where you need this for Spell Combat. Also, the Bonus Spells are gained at really weird levels for a Magus (really delayed, especially for the lowest level Bonus Spells), and they are the ones a Bloodrager would get, so you get nothing for 5th and 6th level spells. In addition, for being a non-Int spellcaster, you still get only 2 + IntMod skill ranks per level (Sorcerer and Cleric have the same problem, but at least their other class features fit together better to compensate). Finally, since spontaneous casting with Metamagic other than Quicken Spell increases casting time, it doesn't work with Spell Combat or Spellstrike. (And why does it still have Improved Spell Recall, anyway? That is just barely infinitesimally marginally useful to a spontaneous spellcaster.) This archetype definitely still needs some bug fixes.
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I already did a lot of the work for Bloodrager archetypes in the link to the Arcanist guide discussion thread that I linked above, even though I had only meant it for a dip there, because I was using the Arcane Exploit (and I do mean Exploit) Bloodline Development to extend the Bloodrager Bloodline through all Arcanist levels. I might not be able to do it until after I get back on December 19, though.
Dryer didn't get my clothes dry, so here are Bloodrager archetypes (again, Dip only considers 1st 2 levels, unless 1st 2 levels affect something AND 3rd level could make a significant difference for a 3 level dip):
Ancestral Harbinger (Dip versatility -1, power -1; Full versatility -1, power -1): For a Dip, at 2nd level this trades out Uncanny Dodge for Spiritual Weapon (and only once per day) that you aren't going to scale up because you aren't going to take any more Bloodrager levels in a Dip. For Full progression, the Spiritual Weapon upgrades to a weak pseudo-Eidolon, in exchange for Uncanny Dodge and your 6th and 18th level Bloodline Feats, while you gain the ability to cast Summon Monster spells at levels that would make full casters or even 6/9 casters laugh, even though they gain a weak pseudo-Augment Summons (that stacks with actual Augment Summons). This is somewhat better than Greenrager, but not good enough.
Blood Conduit (Dip versatility +2, power +1; Full versatility +1, power +2): At 1st level, for the cost of Fast Movement (which you can compensate for later with spells), you get an Improved Combat Maneuver feat without needing to take the useless prerequisite feat. Sign me up! Do note that this archetype traces out Uncanny Dodge (2nd level Bloodrager) for its 5th level ability, so only dip 1 level in this. For Full progression, however, this same trade is not bad once you actually get to 5th level -- when you successfully do a Combat Maneuver on an opponent, you get to cast a Touch spell on them as a Swift Action that does not need another attack roll (you use the Combat Maneuver roll that already succeeded). This gets better if you have the trait Defensive Stratagist to compensate for the loss of Uncanny Dodge. At 14th level, you get to do this as a reaction to an opponent attempting to do a Combat Maneuver against you, although you do need a separate Touch Attack roll for this (but with full BAB at 14th level, you have a pretty good chance to make it against many of the opponents that would try a Combat Maneuver against you in the first place) -- this replaces Indomitable Will, so get the feat Iron Will to substitute for it.
Bloodrider (Dip versatility -1, power -1; Full versatility -2, power -1): If you somehow get a mount that won't evaporate when an enemy sneezes at it, this helps you make your mount better. For a Dip, you do not actually get a Mount -- you need Full progression for this, and in the meantime you lose both Uncanny Dodge and improved Uncanny Dodge, and then you are going to have to come up with Boon Companion to make your Mount good when you finally get it at 5th level, with no room to spare for any dipping into a non-Animal Companion class, because it starts out *4* levels behind you. Also note that many Bloodline Powers will not synergize very well with being mounted, and you will need to invest in additional feats to be able to cast spells reliably while riding, and in many cases mounts (even ordinary ones) will have trouble fitting into places you need to go. Then you will gain the ability to fly, and make all of that obsolete. At least Blood Bond lets you share the benefit of your immunities, resistances, and spells with your Mount, but it's still not great, and okay only for the highly specialized purpose of a Bloodrager who is going to be mounted almost all of the time.
Bloody Knuckled Rowdy (Dip versatility -1, power -1; Full versatility +1, power +1): For a Dip, the only thing this would do for you at 1st level is trade out Fast Movement for Improved Unarmed Strike, which you could also get with Blood Conduit, and doesn't scale unless your primary class is Monk or Brawler (both of which get this anyway, EXCEPT for the bugged Strangler Brawler archetype). At 2nd level the only thing this does for you is trade out Uncanny Dodge for a Combat Style feat. If for some reason you really want Improved Unarmed Strike and a Combat Style feat and can't make the feats fit in otherwise, this is barely acceptable; otherwise pass. For Full progression, your Unarmed Strike damage does scale, although 2 levels behind a Monk, and you gain Combat Style Master as a bonus feat (prerequisite-free) in place of Improved Uncanny Dodge, and you count your Bloodrager levels as Monk levels when qualifying for and calculating the effects of Style Feats and feats that have them as prerequisites, so if you really want to use multiple Combat Styles, this can work, although it sounds like considerable care in building will be required to get full advantage of this. Do note that you lose Damage Reduction, which only achieves modest levels on a normal Bloodrager, but you do not directly gain anything in return, so you have to make sure you gain power from versatility. Also note that you get 1 less spell known of each level, which hurts your spellcasting versatility in exchange for some of the martial versatility that you gain (if this was not the case, this archetype would be Full versatility +2, power +1).
Crossblooded Rager (Dip N/A, Full versatility +1, power -1): This lets you mix and match parts of Bloodlines (which is irrelevant for a Dip), but at the cost of a -2 penalty on top of an already bad Will Save. If you can somehow mitigate that FULLY, this archetype actually becomes pretty good (Full versatility +2, power +1). Note that other classes which progress a Bloodrager Bloodline (such as Arcanist with the Bloodline Development Arcane Exploit) may reject Crossblooded as invalid, because it is an archetype that modifies the Bloodline.
Greenrager (Dip N/A, Full versatility -1, power -1): This archetype only kicks in at 3rd level, so no Dip rating. For Full progression, what you trade out isn't great, but what you get isn't great either, since the Summons are so far behind what full casters or even 6/9 casters could do. Furious Summoning tries to make up for it by replacing your 9th level Bloodline Feat with a scaling pseudo-Augment Summons (which stacks with actual Augment Summons), but it isn't really enough.
Id Rager (Dip versatility +1, power +0(?); Full versatility +1, power +1(?)): This replaces Bloodline and everything about it, so it won't work with classes that progress a Bloodrager Bloodline, such as the Arcanist Exploit Bloodline Development. Too bad, too, because this archetype is what Bloodrager gets instead of an actual Psychic Bloodrager Bloodline, which would have been awesome -- maybe too awesome, so it may have been written this way specifically to prevent the kind of power boost that would otherwise be possible. As it is, it does add some versatility even for a Dip, by giving you a floating Skill Focus (that is, floating in character build, not once in play), but good luck finding anything that will progress your Phantom/Spiritualist powers. Note that rating this is difficult, given that the Spiritualist class that is hybridized into this Bloodrager archetype doesn't even have a guide yet. For Full progression, replacement of Bloodline powers continues, giving you a bonus Saves improvement feat, then makes your Skill Focus and Spiritualist/Phantom powers floating in play (although this is time-consuming), then additional Skill Focus. That by itself would be rather lacklustre, but your spellcasting gets upgraded to Psychic (and you qualify for Occult Skill Unlocks), so as long as you can avoid Emotion effects (usually Fear) that shut down Psychic spellcasting, you are in great shape for spellcasting, and can even do it steathily without the need for Metamagic (which would be very expensive in terms of power for you, with 4/9 spellcasting) Instead of Bloodline Feats, you get a selection of Psychic Feats, and even Extra Rage.
Metamagic Rager (Dip N/A; Full versatility +1, power +1): This archetype makes no difference before 5th level, so no Dip rating. For Full progression, you trade out Improved Uncanny Dodge for the ability to sacrifice rounds of Bloodrage to apply a Metamagic feat without increasing the level of spell slot expended, and gives you the option to replace Bloodline Feats with Metamagic Feats. Unfortunately, it doesn't do anything about the increase in casting time that Metamagic (except Quicken Spell) causes for spontaneous spellcasters, which considerably limits its utility, so you are going to have to figure out strategies like cast a battlefield control or combination debuff/blast spell (Dazing Fireball, anyone?) right before you charge into a group of enemies to soften them up. You will probably also need to take Extra Rage to keep from running out of Bloodrage, although if you are friends with a Skald (caution: no Bloodrage-dependent Bloodline powers in Inspired Rage unless they are >=20th level), you can alleviate this problem.
Primalist (Dip N/A, Full versatility +2, power +1): This only kicks in beyond Dip levels, but being able to replace a lacklustre Bloodline Power with TWO Barbarian Rage Powers is very good, even without being able to take the feat Extra Rage Power to get more.
Rageshaper (Dip N/A; Full versatility +0, power +0): This archetype doesn't do anything before 4th level, and in practice the effects aren't really going to kick in until considerably later, since they depend upon Polymorph spells, but the powers you do eventually get have decent potential, but may be troublesome to set up, and losing Improved Uncanny Dodge does hurt.
Spelleater (Dip versatility +0, power -1; Full versatility +0, power +1): For a Dip, at 2nd level, this trades out Uncanny Dodge for Fast Healing 1. The amount of damage healed is going to be small enough that it probably is not worth losing the ability to act in the Surprise Round, which is what you would really want to dip 2 levels of Bloodrager for (if you get the Defensive Strategist trait to make up for this, this improves to Dip versatility +0, power +0 -- losing Damage Reduction still hurts a bit). For Full progression, Swift Action self-healing by consuming spell slots as a replacement for Improved Uncanny Dodge is a decent trade, even though losing more Damage Reduction still hurts. Do note that the loss of Damage Reduction explicitly does not prevent you from picking up Damage Reduction from another source.
Steelblood (Dip versatility +1, power -2 to +1; Full versatility +0, power +1): For a Dip, this may work really well or may not work at all for you, because Heavy Armor still gives you Arcane Spell Failure in other arcane spellcasting classes (and Arcane Armor Training is just bad), so the power rating is smeared over a very wide range. The bonus on combat maneuvers is nice for a Dip, but doesn't scale in Full progression. Armored Swiftness replaces Uncanny Dodge, and Armor Training replaces Improved Uncanny Dodge; this stacks with actual Fighter Armor Training, and thereby with VMC Fighter Armor Training, so when the Armor Master's Handbook comes out, if it does for Armor Training what the Weapon Master's Handbook did for Weapon Training, this archetype might get a LOT better (potentially upgrading both versatility and power, provided that you go VMC Fighter). Rounding things out, Immediate Action sacrifice of spell slots to gain a deflection bonus to Armor Class is nice, and probably better than the modest Damage Reduction you give up in exchange. If you want to be a Hellknight Bloodrager, THIS is the chassis to build upon.
Untouchable Rager (Dip N/A, Full versatility -2, power -1): No effect on a Dip; for Full progression, you trade out ALL spellcasting for spell resistance that you only get during Bloodrage, and that you can't turn off; you have to get all the way to 14th level to have it on (and finally controllable) when not Bloodraging, but it is still always on when you are Bloodraging. Pass on this, unless every spellcaster that you ever meet is going to be hostile, and even then, it still seems to be not very good.
Urban Bloodrager (Dip versatility +1, power -1 to +1; Full versatility +2, power +0 to +2): This makes your Bloodrage less effective overall (and takes away the Shield proficiency that you aren't going to use anyway, but on the plus side you get no AC penalty) in exchange for allowing you to use Charisma-, Dexterity-, and Intelligence- based skills while in (Controlled) Bloodrage; it will not affect your spellcasting from other classes, which is going to depend upon the feat Mad Magic. On the other hand, such benefits as you get from Controlled Bloodrage can be applied to Dexterity, which enables Dexterity-based builds -- hence, the smeared power ratings for both a Dip and Full progression. Note that if you are going for a Dexterity-based build (in either case), it helps to be friends with an Urban Skald. For Full progression, both Blood Sanctuary and the Restrained Magic that replaces it are largely forgettable (the latter is probably slightly better overall), but at 7th level and every 3 levels thereafter, things start getting good (even though you trade out Damage Reduction for this), letting you snag Bard and Magus spells; unlike Bloodline Spells, you can even swap these out later for other spells, in case they become obsolete at higher levels.
I have not done a full study of Bloodrager archetype compatibility, but as far as I can tell, at least you can combine Blood Conduit with Urban Bloodrager.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I'd say Eldritch Scion is a -2/-2 archetype. It's awful and only improves to "bad" at 8th level. Terrible archetype. A waste of a good idea.
Here's why it's a good (but not great) archetype:
This archetype plays very differently than a straight Magus. Depending on the bloodline, this can give you a direct power boost (e.g. Celestial, with its defense bonuses and rerolls), or a versatility boost (e.g. Arcane, which gives three buffs combined for one swift action, and extra opportunity attacks). Around level four you can have enough pool points to keep this up through all combats on a normal day. However, this has the drawback that you can't use your enchant weapon ability much until higher level, you should avoid arcana that cost pool points, and can't use metamagic in spell combat (but there are ways around that).
I think the power of the spelleater depends on whether you can eat slots for spell levels you could not cast with because of low cha.
A dwarf bloodrager with cha 10 (or 8) could not cast bloodrager spells because to do that you would need at least cha 11. If you still get the slots to eat them the spelleater becomes much better as an option for low cha builds.
To not derail this thread if anyone wishes to discuss this there is an old thread asking about this with only one answer in it here.
Edit: Cha 11 not 1.
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My selection of cleric reviews. Note that I won't account for dipping, because Cleric is a class you do not dip into unless you're searching for a cheap Channel Energy to meet a prerequisite. Please (politely) critique.
Actually, I commonly dip Cleric for one level (on non-casters, anyway): it allows you to self-buff with Bless or Divine Favor, perform emergency cures, and domains like Travel or Liberation give useful abilities for free.
For Varisian Pilgrim, the ability to use the Liberation domain on your allies is very effective. Luck and Travel are also nice to use on allies, especially at range. That's an added (off-action!) ability with a drawback, so that'd be +1 at versatility.
I think the power of the spelleater depends on whether you can eat slots for spell levels you could not cast with because of low cha.A dwarf bloodrager with cha 10 (or 8) could not cast bloodrager spells because to do that you would need at least cha 1. If you still get the slots to eat them the spelleater becomes much better as an option for low cha builds.
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Good catch! It should work partially, since spell slots of a higher level than you are able to cast (due to low primary spellcasting ability score) can be used to cast spells of lower level. Question is: If you eat spells of a higher level than you can cast (for the same reason), is their effect limited to the highest level of spell you can cast? My inclination would be to say that yes, it has this limitation, since (as far as I know you can't use these spell slots for Metamagic casting that raises the spell level above what your primary spellcasting ability score supports -- in other words, you would get the spell slots, but their usefulness for non-spellcasting purposes would be limited in proportion to their usefulness for spellcasting. (So you should get your Charisma up to the bare minimum for casting at each level, but don't need to push beyond. For a Dwarf, start with Charisma 11, which just costs 3 points during point buy, and put your 1st 3 Ability Score increases into it, and this will do the trick.)
By the same principles, the same thing should work for Steelblood Bloodrager.
My selection of cleric reviews. Note that I won't account for dipping, because Cleric is a class you do not dip into unless you're searching for a cheap Channel Energy to meet a prerequisite. Please (politely) critique.Actually, I commonly dip Cleric for one level (on non-casters, anyway): it allows you to self-buff with Bless or Divine Favor, perform emergency cures, and domains like Travel or Liberation give useful abilities for free.
For Varisian Pilgrim, the ability to use the Liberation domain on your allies is very effective. Luck and Travel are also nice to use on allies, especially at range. That's an added (off-action!) ability with a drawback, so that'd be +1 at versatility.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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A guide to dipping Cleric is available.
Neat.
If I may comment on that, you can also get Improved Unarmed Strike for free (with e.g. Irori as deity), which is a prereq for numerous other feats. The plant domain's growth ability works for a full round (not just your turn) so it does work on opportunity attacks. And note for the War domain that you count as your own ally as well.
As far as I know, subdomains and inquisitions require you to pick a particular deity, which may have consequences for your alignment. Also, I think the trickery/ambush domain is for kobolds only (since its ability alters the color of your scales). It might be useful to group inquisitions with the domains, so that e.g. persistence's Step Up is listed with the bonus feats?
Finally, note the existence of Channel Focus items... :)
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Ranger archetypes done.
A word of warning: I find evaluating Ranger Archetypes somewhat difficult as Favored Enemy is an ability with considerable power variance. In rating archetypes I’m assuming you picked up favored Enemy (Human) and will be able to make it happen in 20 or so percent of combats. If you think that you will be able to benefit from Favored Enemy considerably more often it is much better than any of the available alternatives. Also if you will be playing at levels 10+ when Instant Enemy becomes a tool favored enemy also gains in power.
I personally consider animal companion to be an extremely powerful ability. However it has two considerable disadvantages a) Boon Companion is essentially a feat tax and b) you have to invest in charisma and or handle animal to a certain extent. If either of those factors is a nono for you feel free to trade it out. However I’m pretty sure the most powerful ranger builds will always make use of their furry friend.
Among the archetypes for ranger most of them are pretty good at keeping the power balance. A few are utter crud while while the only one that truly stands out in my book is the recently released Ilsurian Archer.
I might have missed some of the newer Archetypes if they aren't on d20pfsrd. Also I'd be happy to hear folks feedback. Oh and I disregarded the racial archetypes on purpose. 3 of them are for uncommon races and the Wild stalker seems pretty bad.
Battle Scout
Power -1
Versatility -1
A really bad archetype! It forces you to take the companion bond which is essentially a non-class feature and gives you an ability that is only applicable when you get to choose and prepare the terrain for your next battle. Oh and even when you do so the benefits are rather minor. Pass.
Beastmaster
Power -1
Versatility +1
Losing a combat style feat hurts (especially since the level 6 feat tends to provide the largest power boost) but you get to choose your ACs from the Druid list and can have multiple ACs (like one for scouting and one for fighting).
Corpse Hunter
Power 0
Versatility -1
In an undead campaign this is prolly a good option otherwise I’d pretty much always pass.
Deepwalker
Power 0
Versatility -1
Assuming that underground is probably one of the more common terrain types I think the trades offered here are slightly advantageous. Still the benefits aren’t that great and there’s usually better things you can trade these abilities out for.
Demonslayer
Power 0
Versatility -1
If you wanna slay demons this is your archetype. I like most of the trades (especially the scaling saves bonus and the expanded spell list) but again I’d only want to go for this if I knew exactly what I’m up against.
Divine Tracker
Power 0
Versatility 0
Dip ***
An easy way to aquire IUS or EWP with a number of nice weapons. Also if you don’t want an animal companion I think getting access to two Blessings is prolly among the best trades on offer. I’d prolly try to pick up 1 standard action buff blessing and one which offers some out of combat versatility. If you feel like you get plenty of time to apply buffs pre combat in your games this might actually be an advantageous trade. If you were gonna use your fists or an exotic weapon for a build this is prolly a +1.
Dragon Hunter
Power -1
Versatility -1
Even in dragon focused campaigns you likely won’t be fighting dragons on a daily basis so I’d gladly pass here.
Dungeon Rover
Power 0
Versatility -1
The abilities provided here seem pretty on-par with what your loosing it adds a bit of trap flexibility but on a whole I think I’d only want to pick this archetype if I knew that the campaign was gonna be a biggo dungeon crawl.
Falconer
Power -1
Versatility 0
Dip *
You get a full AC from level one and it has to be a bird (not a roc sadly). Bird’s aren’t the best animal companion’s and you lose your level 6 combat style so overall I think this is a weak archetype. It might be interesting for dips if you have an odd multiclass build with another animal companion class but that seems a rather marginal scenario.
Freebooter
Power -1
Versatility 0
Dip *
You trade favored enemy and Animal Companion for two decent buffs both of which require a move action to activate. I see that as a fairly weak trade but Cleave or Vital Strike Builds don’t mind having good things to do with their Move Action. In aquatic campaign the level 7 ability is pretty good making this a more interesting trade in such situations. I can also envision situations where one might prefer the first level ability over FE so this might be interesting when dipping two levels of ranger.
Galvanic Saboteur
Power 0
Versatility 0
The Ranger Archetype for an Iron Gods campaign. I don’t think you’d want it anywhere else as the trades are very specific to battling constructs and firearms.
Groom
Power -1
Versatility 0
A somewhat minor archetype which seems more geared to NPCs. It doesn’t trade out anything overly good but also doesn’t give you anything special and loosing Track for what is kindof a non ability seems weak.
Guide
Power 0
Versatility +1
Dip *
This is an interesting archetype as it provides one of the best trades for Favored Enemy with Ranger’s Focus which provides a sizeable swift action single foe buff a limited number of times per day. However it also swaps out the animal companion for a really cruddy ability. The other trades are fairly well balanced and possibly slightly in this archetypes favor including a once per day pounce ability at 11. If you never wanted an AC definitely consider this archetype. As a dip you might prefer Ranger’s Focus to Favored Enemy.
Hooded Champion
Power -1
Versatility -1
I really want to like this archetype because you know who doesn’t like Robin Hood but the more I think about it the worse it gets. The main draw here is panache, which in and of itself is a nice ability but a) it works of Charisma a dump stat for rangers if there ever was one and b) Longbows have a 20 crit range so recharging that prolly small Panache pool isn’t gonna be all that easy… also none of the deeds strike me as overly interesting.
Horse Lord
Power -1
Versatility -1
I think there’s better options for mounted combatants than ranger. Also none of the trades offered here are very good or come too late (Strong Bond at 12) so this seems like a weak option.
Ilsurian Archer
Power +2
Versatiliy -1
This archetype is amazing. Too bad it only works for archers oh wait archery is among the best combat styles anywhow and this makes it much better. Spells are nice and dandy but don’t compare to always on static modifiers to hit and damage which are particularly strong for a combat style like archery. You also get a number of bonus feats however these are a bit lackluster but the combo of bullseye shot and pinpoint targeting does add some flexibility to your arsenal.
Infiltrator
Power +1
Versatility 0
Dip *(deep dipping…)
I find infiltrator to be a somewhat interesting archetype not because what it has to offer is super amazing but mainly because what it trades out (Favored Terrain) is not an ability I value very highly. Note that in evaluating this archetype I’m assuming that Adaptions can be activated as free actions. The main issue with this archetype is that it isn’t all that great if you choose FE(Human). If you choose FE(Giant) however you all of a sudden have access to Lunge as of level 3 that is actually pretty amazing, similarly a +2 natural Armor bonus, Darkvision or a +10 bonus to speed, a climb or swim speed are all very sweet abilities. Now if I were an Ilsurian Archer and didn’t care so much about who my favored enemies are…
Shapeshifter
Power -1
Versatility -1
Shifter’s Blessing can provide some nice bonuses but sadly only work a very limitged number of times per day. This wouldn’t even be a bad trade for favored terrain but the archetype also forces you into the Natural Weapon Combat Style which only works for Natural Attack or Vital Strike builds. The latter trades also take away some of the Ranger’s cooler abilities so that’s another minus.
Skirmisher
Power 0
Versatility -1
Dip * (If you are moving into a PrC after ranger 5 this will be better than spells most of the time)
Ah the Skirmisher, admittedly my favorite Ranger Archetype. Let me explain why it’s awesome before explaining why it sucks. Three of the tricks are vastly superior to the others and make this archetype awesome: Vengeance Strike (you count as your own Ally!!!), Surprise Shift (extremely powerful for any build that likes making many attacks), Skill Sage. The bad: While you gain new tricks every two levels you only have one pool of uses and it grows very slowly compared to spells per day. You lose access to wands which is a considerable blow to flexibility. I’d recommend this archetype for low level play and spells for higher levels. However the better action economy of tricks is awesome at all levels. Also this works better for low wisdom Rangers than Spells. Then again only fools build low wisdom rangers…
Sky Stalker
Power 0
Versatility 0
You don’t loose anything by picking up this archetype and can upgrade your AC to a Hippogrif. This seems okay but not amazing.
Spirit Ranger
Power -1
Versatility +2
If you want to play a more mystically inclined Ranger who’s constantly asking trees for advice go ahead ye dirty tree hugger… as the Ranger spell list is full of situational spells having some spells you can cast spontaneously is a pretty sweet ability just not as sweet as a cuddly loving baby wolf who will eat your enemies.
Toxopholit
Power 0
Versatility 0
This is cool but doesn’t do all that much. But it also doesn’t lose much so have fun splitting arrows if that’s your thing.
Trapper
Power -1
Versatility -1
Dip **
The best one level dip if you want full BAB and trapfinding. Otherwise giving up spells for traps seems like a very weak trade.
Trophy Hunter
Power ?
Versatility 0
I don’t know much about firearms but if I did I’d prolly be playing a gunslinger…
Urban Ranger
Power 0
Versatility 1
I feel like this is a slight upgrade to the base ranger as I prefer trapfinding to endurance and like the skill trades. This used to be the better rogue now that unchained is around it’s just a full BAB alternative.
Warden
Power -2
Versatility 0
Ouch this is so bad it hurts and should be strictly for NPC.
Wild Hunter
Power 0
Versatility +1
This a decent trade for favored enemy. The archetype gets a bit worse if you plan on trading out your animal companion.
Wild Stalker
Power 0
Versatility 0
I love Rage and I love Rangers so I might not be overly objective in evaluating this archetype but I find it a fair trade as I consider the sizeable Perception bonus a pretty major boon to a ranger. The way it’s worded you get rage at level 4 a rage power at 5,6,10,10,14,15 and so forth while only skipping your second level combat style so you get a nice bag of abilities.
Witchguard
Power 0
Versatility +1
Dip * (3 levels for bodyguard builds)
Prolly the best way to build a bodyguard. Also the only way Rangers can access divine Favor which I see as a considerable boon to any martial. If you wanna build a tanky ranger for a spell casting heavy group this is a pretty strong option.
Woodland Skirmisher
Power -1
Versatility –1
A really poor trade on a whole. The only selling point for this archetype is the access to druid spells but I don’t see any super amazing things on the druid list that aren’t on the ranger list.
Yokai Hunter
Power 0
Versatility 0
Another one of the more campaign specific archetypes. I like a number of the alternate ability especially the blindsense ability so if there’s a lot of spirits and stuff in the campaign this is prolly a strong choice.
I'd say Eldritch Scion is a -2/-2 archetype. It's awful and only improves to "bad" at 8th level. Terrible archetype. A waste of a good idea.Here's why it's a good (but not great) archetype:
This archetype plays very differently than a straight Magus. Depending on the bloodline, this can give you a direct power boost (e.g. Celestial, with its defense bonuses and rerolls), or a versatility boost (e.g. Arcane, which gives three buffs combined for one swift action, and extra opportunity attacks). Around level four you can have enough pool points to keep this up through all combats on a normal day. However, this has the drawback that you can't use your enchant weapon ability much until higher level, you should avoid arcana that cost pool points, and can't use metamagic in spell combat (but there are ways around that).
The benefits from Bloodlines don't come even close to being worth all that they lose. And it locks you out of great archetypes, such as Bladebound and Hexcrafter.
For one, we have the loss of skill points and complete inability of using metamagic feats with Spell Combat. Spell Combat itself is severely nerfed and so is their spell casting. The main advantage of spontaneous casting is very reduced due to Spell Recall and Knowledge Pool (and Pearls of Power).
At 6th level, you have maybe 12 rounds where you can benefit from your Bloodline and use spell combat. And that's at the cost of all of your Arcane Pool-equivalent and every other swift action too (so no Arcane Strike or Quickened Spell for you)!
While other Magi are using their Arcana pools to do cool stuff like adding their casting attribute to attack rolls or enhancing their weapons for free... You're using all of yours just to use your most basic class features.
Eldritch Scion is not just "different" from other Magi, it's vastly inferior too. The archetype is a nice idea, but the execution is terrible. Unless it gets a serious boost, it's best left forgotten.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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The benefits from Bloodlines don't come even close to being worth all that they lose. And it locks you out of great archetypes, such as Bladebound and Hexcrafter.
Well, the archetype certainly has drawbacks, nobody is disputing that. But let's also look at what it gains.
As you say, you can't use Arcane Accuracy any more. However, you do get Destined Strike, which adds half your level to attack rolls; and Certain Strike, which gives you a free reroll every two rounds. Hm, that sounds pretty good actually. You can use your arcana slot for Arcane Familiar, or Close Range, or Empowered Magic. There are plenty of good arcana that don't require pool points or swift actions.
At 6th level, you have maybe 12 rounds where you can benefit from your Bloodline
Twelve rounds should cover every combat for the entire day, so that's sufficient. Also, you can easily get more: take a trait for +1 pool, a feat for +2 pool, or a wyroot weapon. So it's not "maybe 12", it's at least 12 and up to 20 if you want.
So yes, I fully agree that the archetype has issues. But it also has good abilities to make up for that.
Pathfinder Gunslinger Archetypes
(Power Score -3 to +3/ Versatility Score -3 to +3)
Quick Summary: As with fighters, you should almost always take an Archetype with a gunslinger. Usually you're going to trade out some versatility for greater raw power in whatever you plan to specialize as, which is a pretty good deal when the class is already pretty specialized.
GENERAL ARCHETYPES
Bolt Ace (-1/0)
Being able to build a class that's build around a crossbow is nice and all but this class isnt' that much better at it than your normal fighter or ranger specialized into them. That's besides the fact that guns are, mechanically, simply better than traditional ranged weapons when you are able to negate their downsides with class abilities. Gunslingers get ways to ignore the chance of them exploding and make them stupidly affordable (and marketable). You trade out power for still being a ranged combat specialist with slow loading weapons.
Gun Scavenger (+2/+1)
It takes you longer to clear your weapon and you can't reduce a misfire chance to 0, but you gain the ability to spontaneously make your weapon have magical effects for rounds/gunslinger level. That's pretty great alone. You also gain on top of that, in place of nimble a dodge bonus while wearing light armor, the ability to decrease a target's dodge or insight bonuses to armor class. Because this is a class that needed more accuracy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Gun Tank (+1/0)
You get the fortification enchantment as a class ability, that "doesn't stack" because you instead get to rollit twice if you have the enchantment on your armor. Resilience is nice because even successful fort saves can give leave you with problematic effects, but it comes very late for the class. You lose out on 5 bonus feats, which does hurt because you're a pretty feat starved class, but you're effectively getting medium armor proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, shield proficiency, and tower shield proficiency for free at level 1. The archetype doesn't really make you any more versatile, but it does make you more powerful in my opinion
Gunner Squire (-3/-2)
This is an NPC or Cohort archetype. Skip.
Musket Master (+2/-1)
This accelerates the rate at which two-handed firearms become better than one-handed ones by giving you move action reloads at level 3. With alchemical cartridges (which you can make for cheap) it will drop you down to free actions. Simply fantastic. If you want to use two-handed firearms, or really any firearms at all, this should be the first archetype you consider and compare everything else to.
Mysterious Stranger (+1/+1)
The Mysterious Stranger trades out a focus on perception and sense motive for a focus on skills like bluff and diplomacy, which are better for directly influencing NPCs and enemies. Your will save will suffer slightly, but you gain a in-class luck bonus to it to help balance out the decreases Wisdom. It also comes with the ability to spend grit to add Charisma to damage (awesome), and the ability to spend grit to make a shot that missed deal half damage (okay). The ability to ignore misfire for Cha mod times/day is icing on the cake. Unfortunately this archetype no longer stacks with pistolero.
Pistolero (+1/0)
My thoughts on this class are similar to the Musketmaster. You give up the option to use multiple types of firearms, in exchange for making your character better with a single type of firearm. While I do think two-handed firearms are better in the long run, this archetype does get some pretty nice toys. Most notable it Twin Shot Knockdown which lets a gunslinger, after hitting a target twice, spend 1 point of grit and knock the target prone with no save and no CMB check.
Siege Gunner (-3/-2)
Siege weapons do not fit inside your normal dungeon and are not remotely portable. No.
Techslinger (+2/-2)
Firearms are "balanced" by being expensive, short ranged and occassionally exploding. Tech firearms are only expensive. Eventually you gain the ability to use heavy weapons as if they were normal firearms for deeds. If your GM is going to give you access to zero rifles and rail guns, have fun. You get to add dexterity to damage with them and ignore detrimental glitches for your favorite weapon from level 5 onward.
Wyrm Sniper (-3/-2)
Siege weapons do not fit inside your normal dungeon and are not remotely portable. No.
RACIAL ARCHETYPES
Buccaneer [Humans] (+1/+1)
Similar to the Mysterious stranger, this class uses her Charisma instead of Wisdom for grit. You can drink to regain grit points, and gain a bunch of other neat abilities. While it seems like the class would only be good in a nautical campaign, it's actually going to be pretty decent in any situation.
Bushwacker (Kobolds) (-2/-1)
You lose out on grit points in exchange for an additional way to gain grit points that any gunslinger can get. You have 2d6 sneak attack damage by level at level 4, increasing to 6d6 sneak attack damage at level 20, but lose out on all gun training. You increase range at which you can apply that sneak attack damage with your short range weapons.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Experimental Gunsmith (Gnomes)(-1/+1)
This stuff is all more fun and funky than it is effective. Most of the stat boosts (extra capacity/range/damage) come with pretty awful drawbacks. The best stuff is probably the grappling hook, or the vial launcher, which definitely add some more tools to a class desperate for them.
Gulch Gunner (Ratfolk) (-3/-1)
The class is built around using a slow-firing ranged weapon right next to your enemy. Not just in melee range of them, literally standing next to them. You also dont' regain grit for disabling enemies with fewer hit dice than you. This is effectively "Stand next to sig monster. Get grappled. Die" the class. Skip.
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Bloodrager Evaluations
So somethings I feel you should mention. First, Bloodline familiars!!!
Seriously this is so good, especially for dips. It delays your bonus spells, which I feel come late enough it doesn't matter, to replace your first bloodline ability. If you go hedgehog it's a free iron will that stacks with iron will. Plus if your familiar is a Guardian then you get extra AC and if you go 5 levels HP too.Also Rageshaper works with Bloodline abilities that grant natural attacks. That's why the abyssal rageshaper is a thing. Gaining claws, becoming large, and having those large claws be bigger from ragershaper.
Id rager is really nice too, you'll often get an extra feat out of it while you're raging and some other nice boosts. for a 1 lvl dip you can go anger and have an extra +2 str while raging for -2 dex and have power attack while raging.
Pathfinder Gunslinger Archetypes
(Power Score -3 to +3/ Versatility Score -3 to +3)
Quick Summary: As with fighters, you should almost always take an Archetype with a gunslinger. Usually you're going to trade out some versatility for greater raw power in whatever you plan to specialize as, which is a pretty good deal when the class is already pretty specialized.
GENERAL ARCHETYPES
Bolt Ace (-1/0)Being able to build a class that's build around a crossbow is nice and all but this class isnt' that much better at it than your normal fighter or ranger specialized into them. That's besides the fact that guns are, mechanically, simply better than traditional ranged weapons when you are able to negate their downsides with class abilities. Gunslingers get ways to ignore the chance of them exploding and make them stupidly affordable (and marketable). You trade out power for still being a ranged combat specialist with slow loading weapons.
Gun Scavenger (+2/+1)
It takes you longer to clear your weapon and you can't reduce a misfire chance to 0, but you gain the ability to spontaneously make your weapon have magical effects for rounds/gunslinger level. That's pretty great alone. You also gain on top of that, in place of nimble a dodge bonus while wearing light armor, the ability to decrease a target's dodge or insight bonuses to armor class. Because this is a class that needed more accuracy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Gun Tank (+1/0)
You get the fortification enchantment as a class ability, that "doesn't stack" because you instead get to rollit twice if you have the enchantment on your armor. Resilience is nice because even successful fort saves can give leave you with problematic effects, but it comes very late for the class. You lose out on 5 bonus feats, which does hurt because you're a pretty feat starved class, but you're effectively getting medium armor proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, shield proficiency, and tower shield proficiency for free at level 1. The archetype...
Glad to see the list, though I do have to ask, is there a way to change the ratings slightly? Right now all the current archetype lists are in -2, +2 format, not -3,+3 format. I do not want to change the scores to what I believe to be the appropriate modified score, so as soon as you read this, please reply with the updated scores and i'll put it in.
Bloodrager EvaluationsSo somethings I feel you should mention. First, Bloodline familiars!!!
Seriously this is so good, especially for dips. It delays your bonus spells, which I feel come late enough it doesn't matter, to replace your first bloodline ability. If you go hedgehog it's a free iron will that stacks with iron will. Plus if your familiar is a Guardian then you get extra AC and if you go 5 levels HP too.
Secon this! Bloodline Familiars are the single most powerful (imo overpowered) Archetype for Bloodragers.
Secon this! Bloodline Familiars are the single most powerful (imo overpowered) Archetype for Bloodragers.
Maybe, but if you are aberrant bloodline, you could already take the aberrant tumor feat to get an even more useful familiar.
Maybe, but if you are aberrant bloodline, you could already take the aberrant tumor feat to get an even more useful familiar.
Secon this! Bloodline Familiars are the single most powerful (imo overpowered) Archetype for Bloodragers.
True, but Bloodragers are pretty tight on feats I find, and being able to just drop your lvl 1 power, which is usually pretty terrible, for a familiar can be pretty critical. Who doesn't love effectively a free +4 to initiative?
Here it is.
We should prob post it atleast once on every page.
Anyone have any thoughts on my ranger ratings?
My RatingsGlad to see the list, though I do have to ask, is there a way to change the ratings slightly? Right now all the current archetype lists are in -2, +2 format, not -3,+3 format. I do not want to change the scores to what I believe to be the appropriate modified score, so as soon as you read this, please reply with the updated scores and i'll put it in.
I can't go back and edit them, but I can change give you my updated ratings.
Siege Gunner makes some painful trades, but it has the interesting distinction of being the only archetype with INT grit. Also, you aren't required to take a siege weapon with your Gun Training- you're still subject to regular restrictions. Granted, you do lose your bonus feats for things that are far less than worthwhile.
Wyrm Sniper is straight-up superior to regular Gunslinger up until 6th level, the only thing you are forced to trade out are a 7th level, an 11th level, and a 15th level deed. Every other trade is optional (read the text closer), and you start with an extra class skill. Perhaps it should have a 0/0 rating for dips?
Hmm... I'll admit to not having considered dips. I'll edit my ratings and description to compensate.
General Archetypes
Bolt Ace (-1/0)
Gun Scavenger (+1/+1)
Gun Tank (+1/0)
Gunner Squire (-2/-2)
Musket Master (+2/-1)
Mysterious Stranger (+1/+1)
Pistolero (+1/0)
Siege Gunner (-2/-1)
Revised Description: Siege weapons do not fit inside your normal dungeon and are not remotely portable. However, the class is unique in how it is the only one with Int based grit. You don't lose out on normal gun training rules, so you're still good to go there. Nonetheless, you give up all of your feats, and get poor replacements for Nimble and Gunslinger Initiative.
Techslinger (+2/-1)
Wyrm Sniper (0/+1) early on, (-1/+1) later
Revised Description: Early on this class is all bonuses, granting a character free proficiency with light siege engines, and knowledge(arcana) as a class skill. From level 7 onward however, the class begins to force you to start focusing in ligth siege weapons. Siege weapons do not fit into dungeons. You can hang out in this archetype for a little bit, but that's about all. Better this than siege gunner
Buccaneer [Human] (0/+1)
Bushwacker [Kobold] (-1/-1)
Gulch Gunner [Ratfolk] (-2/-2)
Revised Description (there were some typos): The archetype is built around using a slow-firing weapon right next to your enemy. Not just within their threatened area, but literally standing next to them. You also don't regain grit points for disabling enemies with fewer hit dice than you. This is effectively the "stand next to big monster. Get grappled. Die" class. skip.
@Alex Mack
Demonslayer
Power 0
Versatility -1
If you wanna slay demons this is your archetype. I like most of the trades (especially the scaling saves bonus and the expanded spell list) but again I’d only want to go for this if I knew exactly what I’m up against.
I would probably raise the power from 0 to +1.
The only thing you give up is Endurance and the choice of your primary Favored Enemy. The rest of this archetype is just extra bonuses towards Evil Outsiders, in addition to the normal class features.
Corpse Hunter
Power 0
Versatility -1
In an undead campaign this is prolly a good option otherwise I’d pretty much always pass.
This archetype grants you a lesser version of Favored Enemy, since you can't pick any secondary ones. And all abilities are completely focused against undeads (as it should be). But if undead are the only enemy you'll meet, the new abilities are sure to come in handy.
I would probably give it a
Power +1
Versatility -2
@Alex Mack
Demonslayer
Power 0
Versatility -1
If you wanna slay demons this is your archetype. I like most of the trades (especially the scaling saves bonus and the expanded spell list) but again I’d only want to go for this if I knew exactly what I’m up against.I would probably raise the power from 0 to +1.
The only thing you give up is Endurance and the choice of your primary Favored Enemy. The rest of this archetype is just extra bonuses towards Evil Outsiders, in addition to the normal class features.
Corpse Hunter
Power 0
Versatility -1
In an undead campaign this is prolly a good option otherwise I’d pretty much always pass.This archetype grants you a lesser version of Favored Enemy, since you can't pick any secondary ones. And all abilities are completely focused against undeads (as it should be). But if undead are the only enemy you'll meet, the new abilities are sure to come in handy.
I would probably give it a
Power +1
Versatility -2
Thanks for your feedback.
I misread demonslayer (I thought you didn't gain secondary FE). It's actually pretty good then as the other trades are strong.
I disagree on Corpse hunter however in my book less favored enemies=less power.
Battle Scout
Power -1
Versatility -1
A really bad archetype! It forces you to take the companion bond which is essentially a non-class feature and gives you an ability that is only applicable when you get to choose and prepare the terrain for your next battle. Oh and even when you do so the benefits are rather minor. Pass.
Beastmaster
Power -1
Versatility +1
Losing a combat style feat hurts (especially since the level 6 feat tends to provide the largest power boost) but you get to choose your ACs from the Druid list and can have multiple ACs (like one for scouting and one for fighting).
Corpse Hunter
Power 0
Versatility -1
In an undead campaign this is prolly a good option otherwise I’d pretty much always pass.
Deepwalker
Power 0
Versatility -1
Assuming that underground is probably one of the more common terrain types I think the trades offered here are slightly advantageous. Still the benefits aren’t that great and there’s usually better things you can trade these abilities out for.
Demonslayer
Power + 1
Versatility -1
If you wanna slay demons this is your archetype. I like most of the trades (especially the scaling saves bonus and the expanded spell list) as all you loose here is endurance this is a good choice if you expect a sizeable amount of Evil Outsiders.
Divine Tracker
Power 0
Versatility 0
Dip ***
An easy way to aquire IUS or EWP with a number of nice weapons. Also if you don’t want an animal companion I think getting access to two Blessings is prolly among the best trades on offer. I’d prolly try to pick up 1 standard action buff blessing and one which offers some out of combat versatility. If you feel like you get plenty of time to apply buffs pre combat in your games this might actually be an advantageous trade. If you were gonna use your fists or an exotic weapon for a build this is prolly a +1.
Dragon Hunter
Power -1
Versatility -1
Even in dragon focused campaigns you likely won’t be fighting dragons on a daily basis so I’d gladly pass here.
Dungeon Rover
Power 0
Versatility -1
The abilities provided here seem pretty on-par with what your loosing it adds a bit of trap flexibility but on a whole I think I’d only want to pick this archetype if I knew that the campaign was gonna be a biggo dungeon crawl.
Falconer
Power -1
Versatility 0
Dip *
You get a full AC from level one and it has to be a bird (not a roc sadly). Bird’s aren’t the best animal companion’s and you lose your level 6 combat style so overall I think this is a weak archetype. It might be interesting for dips if you have an odd multiclass build with another animal companion class but that seems a rather marginal scenario.
Freebooter
Power -1
Versatility +1
Dip *
You trade favored enemy and Animal Companion for two decent buffs both of which require a move action to activate. I see that as a fairly weak trade but Cleave or Vital Strike Builds don’t mind having good things to do with their Move Action. In aquatic campaign the level 7 ability is pretty good making this a more interesting trade in such situations. I can also envision situations where one might prefer the first level ability over FE so this might be interesting when dipping two levels of ranger.
Galvanic Saboteur
Power 0
Versatility 0
The Ranger Archetype for an Iron Gods campaign. I don’t think you’d want it anywhere else as the trades are very specific to battling constructs and firearms.
Groom
Power -1
Versatility 0
A somewhat minor archetype which seems more geared to NPCs. It doesn’t trade out anything overly good but also doesn’t give you anything special and loosing Track for what is kindof a non ability seems weak.
Guide
Power 0
Versatility +1
Dip *
This is an interesting archetype as it provides one of the best trades for Favored Enemy with Ranger’s Focus which provides a sizeable swift action single foe buff a limited number of times per day. However it also swaps out the animal companion for a really cruddy ability. The other trades are fairly well balanced and possibly slightly in this archetypes favor including a once per day pounce ability at 11. If you never wanted an AC definitely consider this archetype. As a dip you might prefer Ranger’s Focus to Favored Enemy.
Hooded Champion
Power -1
Versatility -1
I really want to like this archetype because you know who doesn’t like Robin Hood but the more I think about it the worse it gets. The main draw here is panache, which in and of itself is a nice ability but a) it works of Charisma a dump stat for rangers if there ever was one and b) Longbows have a 20 crit range so recharging that prolly small Panache pool isn’t gonna be all that easy… also none of the deeds strike me as overly interesting.
Horse Lord
Power -1
Versatility -1
I think there’s better options for mounted combatants than ranger. Also none of the trades offered here are very good or come too late (Strong Bond at 12) so this seems like a weak option.
Ilsurian Archer
Power +2
Versatiliy -1
This archetype is amazing. Too bad it only works for archers oh wait archery is among the best combat styles anywhow and this makes it much better. Spells are nice and dandy but don’t compare to always on static modifiers to hit and damage which are particularly strong for a combat style like archery. You also get a number of bonus feats however these are a bit lackluster but the combo of bullseye shot and pinpoint targeting does add some flexibility to your arsenal.
Infiltrator
Power +1
Versatility 0
Dip *(deep dipping…)
I find infiltrator to be a somewhat interesting archetype not because what it has to offer is super amazing but mainly because what it trades out (Favored Terrain) is not an ability I value very highly. Note that in evaluating this archetype I’m assuming that Adaptions can be activated as free actions. The main issue with this archetype is that it isn’t all that great if you choose FE(Human). If you choose FE(Giant) however you all of a sudden have access to Lunge as of level 3 that is actually pretty amazing, similarly a +2 natural Armor bonus, Darkvision or a +10 bonus to speed, a climb or swim speed are all very sweet abilities. Now if I were an Ilsurian Archer and didn’t care so much about who my favored enemies are…
Shapeshifter
Power -1
Versatility -1
Shifter’s Blessing can provide some nice bonuses but sadly only work a very limited number of times per day. This wouldn’t even be a bad trade for favored terrain but the archetype also forces you into the Natural Weapon Combat Style which only works for Natural Attack or Vital Strike builds. The latter trades also take away some of the Ranger’s cooler abilities so that’s another minus.
Skirmisher
Power 0
Versatility -1
Dip * (If you are moving into a PrC after ranger 5 this will be better than spells most of the time)
Ah the Skirmisher, admittedly my favorite Ranger Archetype. Let me explain why it’s awesome before explaining why it sucks. Three of the tricks are vastly superior to the others and make this archetype awesome: Vengeance Strike (you count as your own Ally!!!), Surprise Shift (extremely powerful for any build that likes making many attacks), Skill Sage. The bad: While you gain new tricks every two levels you only have one pool of uses and it grows very slowly compared to spells per day. You lose access to wands which is a considerable blow to flexibility. I’d recommend this archetype for low level play and spells for higher levels. However the better action economy of tricks is awesome at all levels. Also this works better for low wisdom Rangers than Spells. Then again only fools build low wisdom rangers…
Sky Stalker
Power 0
Versatility 0
You don’t loose anything by picking up this archetype and can upgrade your AC to a Hippogrif. This seems okay but not amazing.
Spirit Ranger
Power -1
Versatility +2
If you want to play a more mystically inclined Ranger who’s constantly asking trees for advice go ahead ye dirty tree hugger… as the Ranger spell list is full of situational spells having some spells you can cast spontaneously is a pretty sweet ability just not as sweet as a cuddly loving baby wolf who will eat your enemies.
Toxopholit
Power 0
Versatility 0
This is cool but doesn’t do all that much. But it also doesn’t lose much so have fun splitting arrows if that’s your thing.
Trapper
Power -1
Versatility -1
Dip **
The best one level dip if you want full BAB and trapfinding. Otherwise giving up spells for traps seems like a very weak trade.
Trophy Hunter
Power ?
Versatility 0
I don’t know much about firearms but if I did I’d prolly be playing a gunslinger…
Urban Ranger
Power 0
Versatility 1
I feel like this is a slight upgrade to the base ranger as I prefer trapfinding to endurance and like the skill trades. This used to be the better rogue now that unchained is around it’s just a full BAB alternative.
Warden
Power -2
Versatility 0
Ouch this is so bad it hurts and should be strictly for NPC.
Wild Hunter
Power 0
Versatility +1
This a decent trade for favored enemy. The archetype gets a bit worse if you plan on trading out your animal companion.
Wild Stalker
Power 0
Versatility 0
I love Rage and I love Rangers so I might not be overly objective in evaluating this archetype but I find it a fair trade as I consider the sizeable Perception bonus a pretty major boon to a ranger. The way it’s worded you get rage at level 4 a rage power at 5,6,10,10,14,15 and so forth while only skipping your second level combat style so you get a nice bag of abilities.
Witchguard
Power 0
Versatility +1
Dip * (3 levels for bodyguard builds)
Prolly the best way to build a bodyguard. Also the only way Rangers can access divine Favor which I see as a considerable boon to any martial. If you wanna build a tanky ranger for a spell casting heavy group this is a pretty strong option.
Woodland Skirmisher
Power -1
Versatility –1
A really poor trade on a whole. The only selling point for this archetype is the access to druid spells but I don’t see any super amazing things on the druid list that aren’t on the ranger list.
Yokai Hunter
Power 0
Versatility 0
Another one of the more campaign specific archetypes. I like a number of the alternate ability especially the blindsense ability so if there’s a lot of spirits and stuff in the campaign this is prolly a strong choice.
I am loving the working it.
[Dotting to ensure that I do not lose the thread.]
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Pathfinder Gunslinger Archetypes
(Power Score -3 to +3/ Versatility Score -3 to +3)
Wait, can we please get everyone on the same scale here? Everybody else has been using -2 to +2 so far.
True, but Bloodragers are pretty tight on feats I find, and being able to just drop your lvl 1 power, which is usually pretty terrible, for a familiar can be pretty critical. Who doesn't love effectively a free +4 to initiative?
Yeah, Familiars used to be pretty good, but ever since the familiar handbook got printed they're downright amazing. In addition to giving +4 on initiative, you can take the Emissary archetype which gives +1 on all skills, a free reroll on a failed will save, and a domain ability 1/day. Or give it the Sage archetype and it's competent in all knowledge skills, in case your character was low on int or something. Or use the Protector archetype for a +2 to armor class and a buffer of extra hit points.
Seriously, most bloodlines want a familiar instead of their level-1 power. For the same reason, that fighter archetype that gives a familiar is a good pick.
The benefits from Bloodlines don't come even close to being worth all that they lose. And it locks you out of great archetypes, such as Bladebound and Hexcrafter.Well, the archetype certainly has drawbacks, nobody is disputing that. But let's also look at what it gains.
As you say, you can't use Arcane Accuracy any more. However, you do get Destined Strike, which adds half your level to attack rolls; and Certain Strike, which gives you a free reroll every two rounds. Hm, that sounds pretty good actually. You can use your arcana slot for Arcane Familiar, or Close Range, or Empowered Magic. There are plenty of good arcana that don't require pool points or swift actions.
At 6th level, you have maybe 12 rounds where you can benefit from your BloodlineTwelve rounds should cover every combat for the entire day, so that's sufficient. Also, you can easily get more: take a trait for +1 pool, a feat for +2 pool, or a wyroot weapon. So it's not "maybe 12", it's at least 12 and up to 20 if you want.
So yes, I fully agree that the archetype has issues. But it also has good abilities to make up for that.
The archetype doesn't make up for the huge loss of versatility and power, IMO, even if it has a couple nicr tricks... And I think you're really overvaluing the number of Bloodrage rounds and underestimating the number of combat rounds per day (12 rounds is not all that much, and requirez Cha 18 or wasting a feat or trait in it, a pretty bad investment).
But whatever... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
On a separate note, now that Mysterious Stranger doesn't stack with Pistolero, it became a pretty bad archetype, since it can no longer add Dex to damage (only Cha, and at the cost of grit).
Gun Training is pretty much the only thing that makes Gunslingers worth taking levels in. So much so that the class is barely worth sticking with beyond level 5... Gunslinger 5/ Whatever 15 is almost always a better deal than Gunslinger 20.
(Inquisitor and Urban Barbarian are pretty good multiclass choices)
Wouldn't Mysterious Stranger get Dex to damage at level 9 since it's only replace Gun Training 1?On a separate note, now that Mysterious Stranger doesn't stack with Pistolero, it became a pretty bad archetype, since it can no longer add Dex to damage (only Cha, and at the cost of grit).
Gun Training is pretty much the only thing that makes Gunslingers worth taking levels in. So much so that the class is barely worth sticking with beyond level 5... Gunslinger 5/ Whatever 15 is almost always a better deal than Gunslinger 20.
(Inquisitor and Urban Barbarian are pretty good multiclass choices)
Except then you're playing Gunslinger past level 5. Cue the sound of girls laughing.