Archetype Tier List: A Guide to Picking Archetypes


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Slim Jim wrote:
avr wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
pad300 wrote:
Sylvan Trickster is power -1? Care to elaborate? Slumber Hex alone is probably worth a +1...
It forfeits Uncanny Dodge, and hex DCs are intelligence-based (whereas INT is a common dump in rogue builds).
Obviously a sylvan trickster doesn't dump Int. I wouldn't think that makes it power -1 alone.
He may not dump it, but it won't be his primary attribute, and if it's anywhere close to being so, he'd be better off as a 9-spells caster. Essentially his DCs will always be well behind a pure caster.

Is that the point of these ratings? I thought they were relative to the class sans archetypes. So the comparison should be to a core Rogue, not a 9-spells caster, otherwise a lot of archetypes should be getting a -2/-2 rating, as very little compares to the power and versatility of a full caster.


Yeah I agree it should be relative to the class it alters.


pad300 wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
avr wrote:
[ Obviously a sylvan trickster doesn't dump Int. I wouldn't think that makes it power -1 alone.
He may not dump it, but it won't be his primary attribute, and if it's anywhere close to being so, he'd be better off as a 9-spells caster. Essentially his DCs will always be well behind a pure caster.
Is that the point of these ratings? I thought they were relative to the class sans archetypes. So the comparison should be to a core Rogue, not a 9-spells caster, otherwise a lot of archetypes should be getting a -2/-2 rating, as very little compares to the power and versatility of a full caster.

A dex-rogue is basically living on borrowed time as an archetype without Uncanny Dodge; his uber awesome AC could go from 40 to 14 in an oh-snap instant, so what you trade that for had better be awesome. Most offensive hexes target saves, which means the associated attribute has to be really good. The Sylvan Trickster, therefore, forfeits an essential defensive ability for a benefit that requires a MAD point-buy scheme to deploy.

Barbarians can get away with cashing out Uncanny Dodge. Rogues, not so much.

Shadow Lodge

I have to chime in here about the vexing dodger, since someone earlier just gave them a bad rating. Having played one in pfs, it is my hands down favorite archetype in the game. Limb climber is amazing since it is just a climb check, part of a move, not a combat maneuver. So you can run right up to a guy, up his leg, and stick him in the back all in one round. There's so many ways to boost climbing, including a rogue trick to roll 2d20 every time, so it's almost a guaranteed success.
The dirty trick stuff isn't that great since you are going to be small, but at level 10, when I was getting hasted regularly, it was well worth using one attack for that. The stacking rebuffs of debilitating injury and dirty trick and climbing on them giving me an effective +15 AC.


A multiclass Vexing Dodger and Mouser Swashbuckler can do amazing things, especially upon achieving Signature Skill (Climb) or Rogue’s Edge (Climb).

Tip: even if you have goblin available to you as a race choice, halflings are better at this due to Sure-Footed, Underfoot Dodger, and a lot of other accumulated support over the years (e.g., Cautious Fighter, the Intrepid Volunteer trait, etc).

Note that Vexing Dodger forfeits Uncanny Dodge, so you may wish to explore other multiclass options to get it back.


gnoams wrote:

I have to chime in here about the vexing dodger, since someone earlier just gave them a bad rating. Having played one in pfs, it is my hands down favorite archetype in the game. Limb climber is amazing since it is just a climb check, part of a move, not a combat maneuver. So you can run right up to a guy, up his leg, and stick him in the back all in one round. There's so many ways to boost climbing, including a rogue trick to roll 2d20 every time, so it's almost a guaranteed success.

The dirty trick stuff isn't that great since you are going to be small, but at level 10, when I was getting hasted regularly, it was well worth using one attack for that. The stacking rebuffs of debilitating injury and dirty trick and climbing on them giving me an effective +15 AC.

Augh, yeah you're right. I misread the ability, and just assumed you didn't actually climb your opponent. This does raise some new concerns about the mechanics of the archetype, though.

If we're climbing we'll lose our Dex-to-AC and need both hands free.

Dex-to-AC can be solved by getting a climb speed, which is available to us as a Ninja Trick. The ability to use manufactured weapons would have to wait until lv 8 when we qualify for the Piercing Climb Weapon Trick (unless anyone else knows an earlier option).

Underfoot Trickster can be used even when you're not climbing, so that's actually pretty useful. If it wasn't a Swift action it would be great.

Updated Vexing Dodger:
Power: +1
Versatility: +1

As a Dexterity based climber, you absolutely need a climb speed to avoid losing your Dex-to-AC. This is available as the Ninja Trick Wall Climber which you'd be able to take at level 4.
Since you need both hands free to climb, you'd either need to depend on natural attacks, unarmed strikes, or weapons that don't use your hands.

You do lose Uncanny Dodge, but it is available to you as a Rogue Talent. And even if you don't climb anything, you still get the ability to make a Dirty Trick maneuver as a Swift action. If Dirty Trick maneuvers doesn't interest you, I'd not recommend this archetype at all.

***

*****

@ pad300

Yeah, relative to the class.

I am having trouble gauging the Power of Sylvan Trickster because I don't see the offensive strength increasing, thanks to action economy and low saves.

And while the option of Flight is just a straight upgrade, the loss of Uncanny Dodge is damaging. This archetype deserves a higher Power rating if you find a way to not be reliant on it.


Wonderstell wrote:
Dex-to-AC can be solved by getting a climb speed, which is available to us as a Ninja Trick.

Or any item offering Spider Climb will do, such as the slippers, or Claws of the Ice Bear.


Slim Jim wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
Dex-to-AC can be solved by getting a climb speed, which is available to us as a Ninja Trick.
Or any item offering Spider Climb will do, such as the slippers, or Claws of the Ice Bear.

Oh damn, Slippers would be perfect. They also solve the "hands free" problem, too.


For the sylvan trickster, hex strike makes a hex a swift action addon to an unarmed hit. With an unchained rogue's debilitating strike (and preferably TWF) it's a doable tactic. A one level dip in monk may be useful to make unarmed combat work more easily but it's not required.


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I should probably put up something of my own for people to disagree with. There's more witch archetypes than in 2015 so here's some ratings for those currently unrated.

Witches!:
Ashiftah
Dip Power +2, Versatility -1
Full Power +1, Versatility -1
It loses the familiar which is a minor drop in power, but the next three abilities are all good. Ghostwalk is just great; at-will invisibility is good at any level but at 2nd it may be good enough to make a witch a 2 level dip for a martial character.

Coral Witch
Power 0, Versatility +1
Having your familiar be immune to mind affecting is a power increase but not enough of one to warrant a +1. Hexes from the waves spirit are just enough added versatility to give +1 there IMO; they are not more powerful than the witch hexes, usually less.

Demon-Sworn
Power 0, Versatility 0
Minor changes only & evil flavour but not an alignment requirement. If you want a quasit familiar regardless of alignment here's how to get one.

Flood Walker
Power -1, Versatility -1
Evil required and it looks like it's designed for a specific encounter somewhere rather than for general adventuring use. Possibly useful in a shipboard game? Possibly not.

Gingerbread Witch
Power +1, Versatility -1
Evil flavour (which probably tastes sweet here) but no alignment requirement. The changed/required hexes bounce around in terms of effectiveness, ranging from terrible to 'I can make a better grappler than a white-haired witch with this' to shadow conjuration. Use, but with caution.

Hagbound
Power 0, Versatility -1
Some powers which make you a better melee witch, but defence is a major problem for such and this archetype does nothing to alleviate that while also locking you out of the trickery patron (no mirror image). You lose most of your hexes for those powers too. Use, but with caution.

Havocker
Power -2, Versatility -2
You lose all your hexes and all your patron spells for terrible blasting ability. You'd be better just casting spells than using them for the spellburn which can enhance the blasts. Avoid!

Invoker
Power +1, Versatility 0
Assorted swift action buffs - to spellcasting, hexes, or to other combat abilities - in exchange for several hexes. You can build it several different ways, despite losing the hexes I'm not marking it down for versatility.

Jinx Witch
Power +1, Versatility -1
Three hexes lost, each has a solid replacement. I'm pretty sure there's ways to abuse the 6th & 10th level abilities with cooperation from your friends.

Mirror Witch
Power 0, Versatility 0
Lose your familiar, gain something very like a familiar with different but equivalent powers. If trading with other witches for spells is a likely means of gaining spells in your game drop it to versatility -1 though.

Nexian Spellspy (aka Spellspy, without Nexian)
Power 0, Versatility -1
Odd and specialised. Casting divination spells through your familiar is a minor plus, faking out divination spells is mostly a waste of your 4th level hex.

Pact Witch
Power 0, Versatility 0
Swap your patron spells for a new list of variable quality and replace your 6th level hex with improved familiar (7th level effect). Also you can't change alignment and get some cute cosmetic alteration of your choice. Fair changes in all cases IMO.

Putrefactor
Power -1, Versatility -1
Icky rather than evil. You don't get an actual hex until 8th level which sucks, the replacements are generally subpar and you're limited to one of 4 subpar patrons. Not a good choice, but not impossible to work with.

Rhetorician
Power 0, Versatility -1
Your patron spells get replaced with a different list. The new list is OK until 8th & 9th spell level. Also you lose your 1st level hex for a counter-Diplomacy ability which may never come up, though it's useful if it does.

Season Witch
Power 0, Versatility -1
In exchange for being locked to a certain patron and 1st level hex, you get a +1 DC with some class of spells. I'm not sure an effective +1 feat is worth Power +1, hence the rating. It's probably best with the Winter patron/season/prestige class.

Seducer
Power 0, Versatility 0
Paizo did eventually release a witch who isn't Int-based without getting cold feet and pulling back. Note that a seducer is a prepared Cha-based spellcaster, that part didn't change. While the list of patrons is limited, it covers enough areas that I don't think a versatility hit is justified. The hex swaps are OK and the level 1 swap is phrased so that you can pick up extra hex at that level if you want to. Also, yes you'll need to be willing to talk a bit about seduction if you are to get full use out of this archetype.

Tatterdemalion
Power 0, Versatility -1
Thematic & possibly fun. It does lock down a lot of your hexes, though the replacements are OK. There's a gentle push towards melee with the net and whip proficiencies and the prehensile hair hex.

Vellemancer
Power 0, Versatility -1
A required non-evil witch. You can loan the ability to use beneficial hexes to other characters - like your familiar if no one else. +1 CL (most situations) is a good replacement for your 6th level hex but I'm not sure that spontaneous casting of the +4 enhancement to an ability spells is a worthwhile replacement of your 8th level hex.

Venom Siphoner
Power -1, Versatility -1
Your familiar gets a weak poison and you can safely milk that poison from it, though without poison use you can't use it safely. Costing 2 hexes. Then at 6th level you can add that poison to your single target Fort save spells as a free action, or affect anyone attacking you in melee with a non-two handed weapon with it. If the poison wasn't so forgettable I'd rate this higher.

Witch-Watcher
Power -1, Versatility -1
Diminished spellcasting on a witches' spells/day, ouch. Then you get a few uses (witch level/2, min 1) of some minute/level buffs on one of your friends. It's not impossible but it is pretty bad.

Wyrm Witch
Power 0, Versatility 0
A familiar replacement which can still swap spells with normal witches' familiars, yay. This one acts most like a bonded item. It replaces your patron with a different one chosen off a list of six; there aren't great options but there are good ones.


avr wrote:

I should probably put up something of my own for people to disagree with. There's more witch archetypes than in 2015 so here's some ratings for those currently unrated.

** spoiler omitted **...

I am surprised that you are not listing season witch as a +1 for power. The wording is "as a bonus hex" which implies to me that season witches are up 1 hex over a normal witch... The DC bonus is just gravy.


pad300 wrote:
avr wrote:

I should probably put up something of my own for people to disagree with. There's more witch archetypes than in 2015 so here's some ratings for those currently unrated.

** spoiler omitted **...
I am surprised that you are not listing season witch as a +1 for power. The wording is "as a bonus hex" which implies to me that season witches are up 1 hex over a normal witch... The DC bonus is just gravy.

Could be, and definitely +1 power if so. I read 'This alters patron and the hex gained at 1st level' as that replacing the L1 hex, but I could certainly be wrong. It might be worth putting in a note about interpretations if there's uncertainty.


avr wrote:

I should probably put up something of my own for people to disagree with. There's more witch archetypes than in 2015 so here's some ratings for those currently unrated.

** spoiler omitted **...

Note that the Ashifta(*) gets Ranged Touch delivery of touch spells, meaning that this archetype shares with Cartomancer the relief from having to worry about sending your spellbook out to do the dirty deed, at the risk of it getting nuked. Actually, this is arguably even better for this than Cartomancer (although Cartomancer has its own advantages), since your veil that replaces Familiar mends itself and doesn't depend upon the torn-off piece coming back, whereas an opponent with Snatch Arrows has a chance to snag a card and then destroy it to hose the Harrow Deck.

(*)Just now saw this archetype -- thanks for pointing it out.


What's everyone's opinion on how the strength of Dips are explained in the guide?

I feel the Versatility evaluation is pointless since you're often dipping for one class feature, and Power will always be positive since that's why it is considered for Dips.

I'd favor a system where archetypes that are good for dipping simply have a tag, and that we then remove the Power/Versatility evaluation for Dips.


I feel that versatility in dips has to do with options. Ex a fighter dip gives a feat, but a slayer dip gives a static ability.

Speaking of fighter.

I give the Spear Fighter dips +2 Power, 0 versatility. Full +1 power, 0 versatility.

It gives up heavy armor proficiency, but it gives free dodge while not using heavy armor or shield. The parry feature trades out Armor Training/Mastery for a version of Parry and Riposte that gets better as you level.

It doesn't trade out Weapon Training (just forces the choice).


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Putting those changes in - a bit more detail on Ashiftah, and noting different interpretations on Season Witch:

revising 2 witch archetypes:
Ashiftah
Dip Power +2, Versatility -1
Full Power +1, Versatility -1
It loses the familiar which is a minor drop in power, but the next three abilities are all good. Ghostwalk is just great; at-will invisibility is good at any level but at 2nd it may be good enough to make a witch a 2 level dip for a martial character. The 3rd level power doesn't swap anything and may be part of losing the familiar, letting you use melee touch spells at 20' range (without making a familiar risk itself doing the dirty deed). Replacing the 6th level hex you get the barrow haze spell, apparently at-will.

Season Witch
Power 0, Versatility -1
In exchange for being locked to a certain patron and 1st level hex, you get a +1 DC with some class of spells. I'm not sure an effective +1 feat is worth Power +1 but if you read the hex change as giving you a 2nd hex at 1st level it certainly makes Power +1. It's probably best with the Winter patron/season/prestige class.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Link to the document, since we're on a new page now.

Wonderstell wrote:
I'd favor a system where archetypes that are good for dipping simply have a tag, and that we then remove the Power/Versatility evaluation for Dips.

Agreed; it's been a few years since we set the system in place, and dips have always felt like the clunky exceptional case. When you're dipping into a specific archetype, you're looking for something very specific and often aren't interested in the regular functions of the class at all. This makes it an apples to oranges comparison with the vanilla class.

The other tricky one is archetypes that are strong at some levels but very weak at others. Retraining rules means I'm personally inclined to rate them a bit higher, but those aren't necessarily available at every table. A good example is the Wizard archetype that gets Animate Dead as a 3rd level spell. Game-changer if you're playing at 5th level, basically inconsequential if you're playing at 10th and there's no reason to use the archetype.

Oh, and I did the summoner racial archetypes:

Summoner:

Blood God Disciple (Half-orc)
Power: +1
Versatility: -1
Trading off the summon monster spell-like ability for some more martial benefits, the Blood God Disciple can have his eidolon eat his enemies, then gains evolutions to bolster himself in combat. The very restrictive timing requirements on this ability means it's not particularly useful for utility, but along with this ability to rage at higher levels it makes the Summoner a potent front-liner in his own right. However, at very high levels he runs into the bane of all combat-focused summoners: he shares equipment slots with his eidolon. This means that one or the other of you will be under-geared, and suffer accordingly in combat.

Shadow Caller (Fetchling)
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
Gaining a modified summon monster list, the Shadow Caller loses out on a number of traditional options but gains some potentially gamebreaking ones: Shadows and Greater Shadows. These creatures have an alternate means of killing enemies, with touch attacks that deal strength damage and kill if the target reaches 0 strength score. This can cripple strength-based melee targets while threatening a quick death to those who lack a heightened strength score. Most of the other options are quite problematic, since their abilities affect everyone within range, and there is not necessarily an easy way to protect your allies.

Shaitan Binder (Oread)
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
This archetype gains a grab bag of useful utility options at a relatively moderate cost. The biggest problem isn't the archetype itself, but rather that Oreads suffer a charisma penalty. This is not ideal, and holds the archetype back.

Wild Caller (Half-elf)
Power: 0
Versatility: -1
This is just another in a long list of Summoner archetypes that trade the Summon Monster spell-like ability for Summon Nature's Ally, and simple fact is that the Summon Monster list is unambiguously superior. You do get some extra evolution points for your trouble, and the restrictions on your eidolon are not particularly onerous, and half-elf is one of the ideal races for a summoner, so overall it fares better than most other archetypes in this boat.

Shadow Lodge

Wonderstell wrote:
gnoams wrote:

I have to chime in here about the vexing dodger, since someone earlier just gave them a bad rating. Having played one in pfs, it is my hands down favorite archetype in the game. Limb climber is amazing since it is just a climb check, part of a move, not a combat maneuver. So you can run right up to a guy, up his leg, and stick him in the back all in one round. There's so many ways to boost climbing, including a rogue trick to roll 2d20 every time, so it's almost a guaranteed success.

The dirty trick stuff isn't that great since you are going to be small, but at level 10, when I was getting hasted regularly, it was well worth using one attack for that. The stacking rebuffs of debilitating injury and dirty trick and climbing on them giving me an effective +15 AC.

Augh, yeah you're right. I misread the ability, and just assumed you didn't actually climb your opponent. This does raise some new concerns about the mechanics of the archetype, though.

If we're climbing we'll lose our Dex-to-AC and need both hands free.

Dex-to-AC can be solved by getting a climb speed, which is available to us as a Ninja Trick. The ability to use manufactured weapons would have to wait until lv 8 when we qualify for the Piercing Climb Weapon Trick (unless anyone else knows an earlier option).

Underfoot Trickster can be used even when you're not climbing, so that's actually pretty useful. If it wasn't a Swift action it would be great.

** spoiler omitted **...

It definitely feels like an archetype that they didn't quite think all the way through. Assuming you use unchained rogue, at level 5 you pick up the climb skill unlock which takes care of the losing dex while climbing problem.


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Barbarians! Raaaaarrrrr! ...:

For purposes below, a "dip" is four or fewer levels, ideally only two or one levels. If an archetype listed below lacks a Dip entry, then the straight class offers nothing usefully different from core in its early levels. If the archetype has a Dip entry but not a non-dip entry, it means they are not dissimilar enough for differentiation -- for example an archetype whose differences are entirely front-loaded, such as Drunken Brute.

Core
Dip Power 0, Versatility +1
...stacking the core class barbarian into a martial build is actually a bit of a wash: you gain in offense but suffer in defense as fireplug resilience is traded for glass cannon firepower, and will find yourself needing the feat Raging Vitality at some point to stave off instant-death-syndrome. But you do get to move a little faster, and if you hang around for a second level, might find something handy on the Rage Power list that isn't easily duplicated by a feat or a wondrous item. Lastly, gaining Acrobatics, Perception, and Survival as class skills is a dollop of gravy for those who haven't sacked their intelligence too far.

Dip Power for all archetypes increases an additional +1 when +2 weaponry become available, as the Furious enhancement mimics a +3 weapon while raging. The core class is therefore Dip Power +1 in cash-rich PFS, but probably not in P6 until one's character is maxed-out and coasting.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Armored Hulk
Dip Power 0, Versatility 0
...there is little reason to dip this archetype as opposed to other choices unless one's other martial classes do not offer heavy armor, and heavy armor is what you want for the long haul.
Power +1, Versatility +1
...a straight upgrade for the full-metal rager, as heavier armor offsets the rage penalties to AC, leaving only the bonuses. A nice choice for the strength minmaxer, and slowed movement is eventually waived. Archetype forfeits Uncanny Dodge, which is like, whatever, bruh? to those with a 12 or even less in dexterity.

Beastkin Berserker
Power -1 until 8th, then 0 until 12th, then +1; Versatility 0 until 4th, then +1
...if an animal can do it, so can you. (But see Flesheater farther down.)

Breaker
Power -1 to 0, Versatility 0
...unless you're designing a Sunder maneuver specialist and/or an improvised weapon user, Breaker offers little at the expense of forfeiting fast movement.

Brutal Pugilist
Power 0, Versatility 0
...this archetype caters to those barbarians who've given up on armor-class entirely. Power +1 if Con is your highest stat, and you prefer to complete your monster-tooth-and-spine collection from the inside.

Brutish Swamper
Power -1, Versatility 0
...if you live in a bog and lack the 6000gp for Jungle Boots, this is your salvation.

Cave Dweller
Power -1, Versatility 0
...Increase power rating to +1 if a light-sensitive race without Darkvision stuck in a subterranean campaign.

Deepwater Rager
Power -1, Versatility 0
...yet another terrain-shackled archetype.

Dreadnought
Dip Power +1, Versatility 0
...half-strength rage benefits for no AC penalties is an attractive trade-off, and too bad you can't pounce now. But if you're dipping, you don't pounce anyway, so +1.
Power +myeh until 14th, then +1
...at high-level, gain fear immunity and effortless rage-cycling a bit later.

Drunken Brute
Dip Power 0, Versatility +1
...this archetype is one of the very few means in the whole game of being able to consume potions faster than as a standard action. (You could do so with the Accelerated Drinker trait, but that's a combat trait, and there are so very, very many other nice choices in that category.)

Elemental Kin
Power 0, Versatility 0
...for the discerning barbarian stuck in an no-rest dungeon-crawl with a less-than-normal distribution of traps. I'm tempted to dock the archetype a point just for largely being a waste of a cool name.

Fearsome Defender
Power 0, Versatility 0
...Unafraid Defender would be a more accurate title. Let's you dump your wisdom in point-buy, I guess, provided you have other will-save gear or attribute-redirection mechanics

Feral Gnasher
Dip Power +1, Versatility 0
...gain a bite attack (1st) and the grab ability (3rd) if you are a goblin whose other classes provide the forfeited armor and weapon proficiencies.
Power -2, Versatility -1
...this is what the goblin mooks your PC is easily killing are. Don't be a mook. (See True Primitive below.)

Flesheater
Dip Power 0, Versatility +3
...Step 1: buy a thrush (1sp) and make soup. Mmm. Step 2: rage. Step 3: FLY! (Other barbarians fly into a rage, you rage into flight!)
Power +1 to +all the plusses (scaling), Versatility +3 to +even mo betta' (scaling)
...Please, Sir, may I be a pouncer at 8th? Sure! You'd think this archetype would require you to be an evil cannibal or some other such onerous restriction, but nope, and it's even PFS-legal! And note that you are not required to eat raw flesh either. You can be a civilized member in good standing of the Epicurean PETM* Society. (*People Easting Tasty Monsters) So, bon appétit! Carry a bandolier full of teriyaki jerky of your favorite delicious creatures.

Geminate Invoker
Dip Power +1, Versatility +?
...an ideal one-level dip for the "strength rogue" starting to feel seriously suboptimal around 7th and thereabouts and casting about for retraining ideas, this archetype offers a beefy d12 for 1st-level HP, unmolested barbarian weapon and armor proficiencies, and rage benefits to Con, reflex saves and will saves (so, all your saves). There are no gains to an attack attribute, however, but neither is there a penalty to AC, and skill-usage is unaffected while "trancing".
Power -2, Versatility 0
...if pounce is your mambajamba, there are better means to acquire it than this strength bonus-forfeiting, rage power-butchering archetype.

Giant Stalker
Power -1, Versatility -1
...if you're around giants all the time, then those minuses are plusses.

Hateful Rager
Dip Power 0, Versatility +1
...Gain Favored Enemy (and hence access to the rich variety of items, feats, and other good stuffs involving that mechanic).
Power 0, Versatility 0
...You're essentially a ranger who has swapped his spells and combat styles for barbarian rage and hit-dice. From a barbarian perspective, you do more damage, but it eats up a third of your rage powers (so maybe you're doing less without them). Looks good on paper, but probably even in play.

Hurler
Dip Power 0, Versatility 0
...if you're all about the tossing, this stacks with Savage Technologist for all sorts of dex-rage fun.

Invulnerable Rager
Power 0, Versatility 0
...In 2010, this might have seemed awesome, but it's quickly faded into the background behind more interesting archetypes all clamoring to cash out the same class abilities Invulnerable also forfeits.

Jungle Rager
Power 0, Versatility 0
...not as good as Brutish Swamper (of which it is similar to and does not stack with), but also paradoxically not as bad since it doesn't forfeit Fast Movement. Look elsewhere for your archetype unless you are the mooks and have no choice.

Mad Dog
Power +2, Versatility +2
...Imagine cavalier if it wasn't an annoying pain in the ass with suboptimal sidekicks, and this is it! Order your T-Rex or Megaloceros over Scry-Prime within the next 24hrs and get free shipping! Dip a few levels into Drill Instructor fighter and Primal Companion Hunter, and you're good to go with your Pack Flanking Paired Opportunists Ferocious Beast. Holy bugger is that thing vicious. (Keep your fingers out of the cage, kids, unless ya wanna lose 'em.) And, yes, you can stack Drunken Brute, because there are no DUI laws on Golarion. --This archetype is so balls-awesome that it doesn't even forfeit Fast Movement, so you can catch up to your critter if you fall out of the saddle.

Mooncursed
Power -1, Versatility +1
...Provides benefits that are similar to but considerably delayed and weaker than Flesheater's at every level save 1st (which is Flesheater's "tax" level).

Mounted Fury
Power 0, Versatility +1
...let's take the sucky part of Cavalier and add it to barbarian, and level-penalize it even further. No, wait, just be a Mad Dog. Yes, you should definitely do that instead. Make a will-save, DC 2, and reroll the 1s.

Numerian Liberator
Power -1, Versatility -1
...if you're around constructs all the time, then those minuses are plusses.

Pack Rager
Power -1 until 7th, then +(scaling); Versatility +(scaling)
...attend carefully to the following fine-print: "Allies do not need to meet the prerequisites of these teamwork feats.". In a martial-heavy party, share Paired Opportunists with everybody and hand out +1/Fortuitous polearms. If they can rage (and they can, after the caster unspools Blood Rage), share Amplified Rage -- because who wouldn't want a +14 or even higher morale bonus to strength? If you're 13th level, share both!

Primal Hunter
Power 0, Versatility 0
...this is just inferior to Savage Technologist (which it will not stack with) in every way, and insulting in that the archetype came out two years after the Adaptive bow enhancement arrived to eliminate the costliest annoyance facing early archers. Can do more damage with arrows as a "bowbarian" if you spend a ridiculous amount of gold on a bow with a strength-rating higher than you'd ever possibly reach, but giving up the rage bonus to wisdom and +10 move will be a deal-breaker for most. You're much better off simply dipping SavTech in a Luring Cavalier build or a samurai with a Diakyu of Commanding Presence. Or being a Erastil warpriest and/or Evangelist, because those are things now, too, if you're pursuing the bleeding edge of archery DPR.

Raging Cannibal
Power -1, Versatility -1
...all the penalties that Flesheater doesn't have to gain none of its benefits!

Savage Barbarian
Power 0 to +(slow scaling), Versatility -1
...if your dexterity is so high (or low) that you don't bother wearing armor, this will steadily offset your raging AC penalty with leveling.

Savage Technologist
Dip Power +3, Versatility +2
...arguably the best pure martial dip in the game: this bestows the benefits of rage and more with none of the penalties (well, aside from inability to pick locks or cast spells while angry, but that's what Moment of Clarity is for), this is the equivalent of giving your straight-class fighter all of the following: Greater Weapon Focus (every weapon in the game, melee and ranged), Weapon Specialization (every weapon), Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, +10 move, +2 to AC and armor dexterity prospects, and +3 to Acrobatics and Perception. If your tank is taking any several of those (and you know damned well they are) as traits, feats, and item purchases, you could be getting them all for free with a single multiclass step out into this archetype and a feat plunk for Extra Rage. Add another +1 Power if you're a half-orc with an Amplified Rage shtick. You can even TWF with a gun in melee without eating AoOs; yes, this archetype is just stupid good, because we're not done handing out even more bling: let's be proficient in all firearms too while we're at it. Now I know what you're thinking: "What tickets do I punch to get on this fabulous swag-train?" Answer: medium-armor proficiency (which you're getting from another class, or not caring about because you'll be rocking mithral breastplate with Armor Expert trait for zero ACO) and Uncanny Dodge (which you don't receive at 1st-level anyway and which your other full-BAB classes don't provide either). So in other words: squadoosh. And people say martials can't have nice things.
Power +1, Versatility 0
...add +1 to both if Gunslinger deed abilities from other sources, and add another +1 at 7th.

Scarred Rager
Power 0, Versatility 0
...rightly regarded as anti-conceptual by dungeon-crawler GMs groaning over the incongruity of melding mentally-unhinged mania with time-increment rage-cycle bean-counting, they rest easy in their knowledge that, aside from blown save rerolling, this archetype offers the player no new powers for his character while rendering him flank-bait for the rogues hiding behind the stalagmites.

Sea Reaver
Power 0, Versatility +1
...for the poor sailor who cannot afford a Bottle of Air, Goz Mask, and Slippers of Spider Climbing, and desperately needs all of them at the expense of Uncanny Dodge (which he's also going to need since he only receives light armor proficiency and probably has pretty decent dexterity for that reason).

Sharptooth
Power 0, Versatility 0
...if you were a Flesheater who ate only sharks.

Shoanti Burn Rider
Power 0, Versatility +1
...you get a weak horse; yah! (Why are you not a Mad Dog?)

Superstitious
Power 0 to +(very slow scaling), Versatility 0 to +(very slow scaling)
...in contrast to the popular rage power of the same name, this archetype is of little interest save to those who desperately need to see in the dark sans equipment...at 10th level, and it's a terrible campaign where you can't afford gear by then. At very high level, more beneficent goodies await the extremely patient and easily-satisfied player.

Titan Mauler
Dip Power +1, Versatility 0
...a beautiful stack with Savage Technologist in a dex-bumping small race.
Power -2 to +(scaling), Versatility 0
...that nice ability granted at 1st? Now flush it at 2nd if you actually fight in the manner suggested rather than with standard gear for your size in most other archetypes. Provided you can survive many, many levels of whiffing all the time (because you're an probability-challenged fourteen year-old player also Power Attacking for truly crippling penalties), this infamous "munchkin-trap" archetype slowly rises to the level of not entirely sucking.

Totem Warrior
Power --, Versatility --
...a player doesn't choose this archetype per se, he merely becomes one (in addition to anything else) upon selecting certain sets of totem rage powers.

True Primitive
Power -2, Versatility -1
...Ewoks! Shoot them with your turbo-lasers! Shoot them with everything ya got!

Untamed Rager
Power 0, Versatility 0
...for those who'd rather exchange barbarian class abilities for Intimidate bonuses and the Dirty Trick feat-chain rather than feat slots.

Urban Barbarian
Dip Power +1, Versatility +1
...prior to Savage Technologist and Urban Bloodrager, this was the go-to archetype for dex-raging TWF crit-fishers, and may remain a better dip for certain rogue types tasked with frequently using otherwise prohibited skills while raging.
Power 0, Versatility +1
...of chief interest to dex-ragers, but may also appeal to elves and other Con-penalized races who cannot take Raging Vitality without suffering crippling MAD problems in point-buy.

Wild Rager
Power +2. Versatility 0
...Pathfinder's answer to 3e's Frenzied Berserker, this is the archetype consciously chosen by evil players who secretly yearn to murder their teammates while pretending to be only chaotic-neutral. Str 20, Wis 7...yeees, that's how you do it. Banned in PFS, because of course it is, you silly goose.

Wildborn
Power -1, Versatility -1
...see True Primitive. They're not as bad, but feel free to blaze away anyway.


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Slim Jim wrote:
** spoiler omitted **...

This was a pretty funny read - you should write more of these...


Temperans wrote:
It doesn't trade out Weapon Training (just forces the choice).

A thing I noticed about the spear fighter is that it only forces the 1st choice, leaving you the ability to grab advanced weapon training stuff with your future choices or you can specialize in a 2nd weapon if you want. Compared to other "you gotta pick this one" weapon archetypes, that's huge. So weapon training 2, 3, and 4 are yours to do what you want with.


@Slim Jim: Mad dog barbarian has its points, but you lose half your rage powers and don't get rage at all until 4th level. It's a slow burn to get going; power +2 seems too much to me.

Also the range is +/- 2, +3 is just being a fanboi.

@Dasrak: as of the plane-hopper's handbook there are oread subraces, including one with a Cha bonus.

Also apparently SNA is not restricted to being usable only when the eidolon is not present like the SM ability is, and this behaviour is by design.


Slim Jim wrote:
...arguably the best pure martial dip in the game: this bestows the benefits of rage and more with none of the penalties (well, aside from inability to pick locks or cast spells while angry, but that's what Moment of Clarity is for), this is the equivalent of giving your straight-class fighter all of the following: Greater Weapon Focus (every weapon in the game, melee and ranged), Weapon Specialization (every weapon), Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, +10 move, +2 to AC and armor dexterity prospects, and +3 to Acrobatics and Perception.

The Great Fortitude part is the good Fortitude save from the class, right?

While my dip of choice is the Bloodrager for the familiar at first level, it is tempting to take the Savage Technologist.

***

Also, is anyone else unable to view the document?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
avr wrote:


@Dasrak: as of the plane-hopper's handbook there are oread subraces, including one with a Cha bonus.

Also apparently SNA is not restricted to being usable only when the eidolon is not present like the SM ability is, and this behaviour is by design.

Cool; strike that from the list of complaints then.

I also disagree on the Wild Caller's SNA being usable at the same time as the eidolon because:

Wild Caller wrote:
This ability otherwise functions like the standard summoner’s summon monster I ability and replaces that ability.

It doesn't say it lifts the restriction, therefor it inherits it.


avr wrote:
@Slim Jim: Mad dog barbarian has its points, but you lose half your rage powers and don't get rage at all until 4th level. It's a slow burn to get going; power +2 seems too much to me.

As noted in the core section at the top, I consider "normal" rage to be Dip Power 0 (i.e., a wash) because the lowered AC just means you're going to get your clock cleaned more often, especially at low level where you don't have a lot of hitpoints even as a barbarian. (In my experience, barbarians were the most commonly-croaked class in low-level PFS.) So, delaying it until 4th in exchange for an awesome animal you can use right away is just fabulous win. Even a standard horse with its extra attacks, AoOs, and meatwall soaking potential is a much, much better deal than rage at 1st-to-3rd level. (Heck, you'll get double damage lance-charging without any Mounted feats at all.) Regards losing some rage powers, you'll still pursue the good ones.

Wonderstell wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
...arguably the best pure martial dip in the game: this bestows the benefits of rage and more with none of the penalties (well, aside from inability to pick locks or cast spells while angry, but that's what Moment of Clarity is for), this is the equivalent of giving your straight-class fighter all of the following: Greater Weapon Focus (every weapon in the game, melee and ranged), Weapon Specialization (every weapon), Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, +10 move, +2 to AC and armor dexterity prospects, and +3 to Acrobatics and Perception.
The Great Fortitude part is the good Fortitude save from the class, right?
Yes.
Quote:
While my dip of choice is the Bloodrager for the familiar at first level, it is tempting to take the Savage Technologist.

It'll give you Alertness and some other ability, but it's hard to argue against SavTech for shear offensive gain in a one- or two-level dip with no further babysitting necessary thereafter. If one's Bloodrager archetype rages "normally", he's AC-4 behind SavTech while raging, and whatever free feat he's getting from his phantom's emotional focus is offset by the eventual need for Raging Vitality. Keeping a 1st-level familiar alive also becomes a chore by mid-level; you can put it in a satchel, but that doesn't protect it from poison gas, drowning, and so forth. If, otoh, it likes to ride in your haversack with its head poked out and ducks inside at the onset of combat, then it's in an extra-dimensional space and no longer "adjacent" to you (so goodbye Alertness and whatever other familiar-granting mechanics you had going on).


I'm still unable to access to document.
Any update, Hyland?

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