Archetype Tier List: A Guide to Picking Archetypes


Advice

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JAMRenaissance wrote:
I do agree with the thought that combining archetypes is of most import... which is where my second thread comes in. What do you think are some solid combinations that we can put forward for others?

The difficulty is that there are so many...it might make sense to emphasize certain archetype combos as you did above or add a subsection to each archetype and add something like can be combined with ... works well with ... that would be an awful lot of work... Revel has done some of that work but his guide is pretty outdated by now. Maybe the thread over at GitP is more up to date.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

{. . .}

So I'm really sort of questioning the value of rating versatility at all- is there any situation where "this archetype is versatile" or "this archetype is not versatile" would influence your decision about an archetype?

As a matter of fact, yes, at least the way I was rating things. To me, a versatile archetype means that it could be used for a lot of different things, even if it isn't terrifically powerful, whereas one that is not versatile means that even if it is powerful at what it does, it is just going to be good for a very limited set of things.

Think power = deep and versatility = wide.

Maybe archetypes were intended to limit versatility, but they don't always work out that way. As a practical matter, something that gives you a selection of bonus feats that are hard to get but gives them to you more easily (usually means prerequisite-free) or that gives you a prerequisite-free feat that is the keystone of several feat trees is going to be versatile unless it purposely does something to hose most of your options. Think of Blood Conduit Bloodrager with its prerequisite-free Improved Combat Maneuver or Lore Warden Fighter with bonus Combat Expertise, both of which give you a LOT of great Dip options (the latter example is now less necessary now that the Dirty Fighting feat is out, but it's still not bad).

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Most archetypes should be a - in versatility, since they're generally of the form "you're giving up general abilities, to be better at one specific thing"

This is really not the case for most archetypes. The majority of archetypes either trade a narrow ability for another narrow ability, or even swap a narrow ability for a broad choice.

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Dasrak wrote:

Devout Pilgrim

Versatility 0
Power 0

Differing opinion: While this archetype has numerous restrictions they are all fairly easy to work around. If it fits your build, this archetype works just fine.

This should get +2 on versatility, in particular for the ability to use Freedom of Movement on your allies at need (via liberation domain), giving them rerolls (via luck domain), and letting them ignore difficult terrain (via travel), or giving the party face a big bonus on facing (trade subdomain). The list of domains given here includes some very good ones, and if you take it with a deity that already has one of those, you don't lose anything.

Quote:

Iron Priest

Power 0
Versatility 0

The ability to affect constructs with negative channel is very good on a variant channeling cleric, and should be another +1 to versatility.

Quote:

Scroll Scholar

Power 0
Versatility 0

Differing opinion: While the benefits are sparse, the penalties can be worked around rather easily. It's not a great archetype, but it's workable.

I concur. Free knowledge skills with a half-level bonus, and a +5 on any roll once per day, should at least put this on +1 power.

Quote:

Separatist

Power 0
Versatility 0

Differing Opinion: This archetype is difficult to rank due to the fact that its usefulness is setting-specific. In a setting with a small number of deities and a ban on non-theistic clerics, it could easily be +1/+2 for allowing normally-illegal domain combinations. In settings with non-theistic Clerics allowed, or in a setting like Golarion where there's a huge pantheon to pick from, it's a lot less appealing.

Concur again. Even on a setting with a huge pantheon (e.g. PFS), there still often isn't a deity available that has the weapon, variant channeling, or alignment you want AND has two good domains. This archetype is a big boost there, and should warrant a +1 or +2 versatility.

Quote:

Undead Lord

Power -1
Versatility -1

Differing Opinion: This archetype has severe issues. The corpse companion is laughably weak and not even worth the downtime to replace when it dies. While unlife healer is a useful ability, it's not worth the draconian domain restrictions and was made obsolete in the same book it was published in by the variant channeling...

And concur again. The domain you're locked in is really crappy, and you don't get a second one. That alone really isn't worth the benefits of this archetype. Also, the drawbacks kick in at level one and the bennies don't appear until level 8, which is pretty high for most campaigns.

Ragoz wrote:
Only just started looking at this document but was surprised when I saw Pact Wizard listed as bad. At the very least you get a free Improved Familiar feat (+1 power) but you must select a familiar (-1 versatility). It is also one of the very few ways to get the aura class feature which can be interesting.

The -1 versatility is from having to choose a third opposition school. Having to select a familiar instead of a bond item is not a drawback. Aura class feature is fun but doesn't make your character more powerful or versatile.

JAMRenaissance wrote:

Monk continued

As mentioned, combining archetypes may be the key to the Monk. You are really putting together your own classes by combining these new abilities and using Qinggong to fill in the blanks.

Indeed. For some classes, it is a major drawback of some (otherwise neutral) archetypes that they lock you out of certain strong archetypes, and monk is a prime example of that.

Dasrak wrote:

Invulnerable Rager Barbarian

- I'm not sure where that contributor was coming from here. I'd personally rank it at +2 power / 0 versatility.

I agree, invuln.rager doesn't add any versatility. It's a good archetype but it's purely about power.

Quote:

Tactician Fighter (dips only)

- Expanded bonus feat list and more skill points; seems a bit shallow for +2 versatility, in my view

Indeed. This should be +1 versatility, because you do trade out several class features for the extra skill points and tactician ability.

CWheezy wrote:

I think crosdblooded is fine for power, especially if you use the human favoured class bonus.

While you don't get the spell known right away, you still get the slots, so you can learn an extra lower level spell and use those higher slots using lower level spells.

Getting all your spell levels a level later is a major drawback. Also, the penalty to will saves doesn't help. This should really stay at +1 pow / -2 vrs.


Quote:
Monk of the Seven Winds Dip Power 2, Dip Versatility 0, Power 1 Versatility -1: Trading Stunning Fist for an additional attack with a blade is nice, if you have a dip build that is dependent on unarmed strikes while not being a Monk or Brawler. The bonuses to attack, damage, and AC from Sirocco Fury are in no way, shape, or form worth losing Abundant Step over.

Why not good for a brawler? If you take a slashing weapon from the close weapon list (like the rope gauntlet) you get the close weapon mastery damage.

Not criticising the rating, just the statement of not being good for the brawler.

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And since we don't have the Brawler yet,

Beast-Wrestler: pow 0, vrs -1 - broad bonuses that work against every creature are overall a better idea than slightly bigger bonuses that only work against specific kinds of opponents, making this archetype a downgrade.

Exemplar: pow +1, vrs +2 - you trade out some of the brawler's weaker abilities for some very good teamwork and support moves, at least assuming you'll be using a weapon instead of your fists. This is a good alternative to a martially-inclined bard; in a single round, you can basically take any teamwork feat out of the books and give it to your entire party.

Mutagenic Mauler: pow +1, vrs -2 - basically you gain a straight hit/damage bonus from mutagen, but you lose the iconic flex feat that is the major selling point of the brawler.

Shield Champion: pow +1, vrs +1 - it's Captain America, the Archetype. Hilariously, you can throw your shield to have it bounce off several enemies and hit them with combat maneuvers. This is one of the few ways to use maneuvers at range, which of course prevents enemies from getting opportunity attacks for them. The only downside is that it takes several levels to get going.

Snakebite Striker: pow +1, vrs -2 - another straight damage bonus (from sneak attack and the extra opportunist attack) in exchange for the iconic flex feat. You should take the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat with this archetype to further boost the damage. This is a very good one-level dip though.

Steel-Breaker: pow +1, vrs +0 - assuming you take no other abilities that require a swift action, you can use exploit weakness every turn to give you a few useful bonuses. It's not exactly reliable though, since brawlers tend not to have a high wisdom score.

Strangler: pow +1, vrs -1 - gives some decent bonuses for niche grappler builds, and is not much use for anything else. Becoming a good grappler will require more than just taking this archetype, though.

Wild Child: pow +2, vrs +2 - effectively a variant multiclass to Druid, this gives you the excellent option of an animal companion, in exchange for your bonus feats. Considering you retain martial flexibility and can pick up feats from that (and skirmisher tricks, too) this is a very good upgrade.

Winding Path Renegade: pow -1, vrs -1 - you replace a number bonus feats with monastery abilities, but the choices you get are all pretty weak for the level you get them at. The main benefit here is being able to get Evasion, but overall this archetype is a step backwards.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
is there any situation where "this archetype is versatile" or "this archetype is not versatile" would influence your decision about an archetype?

For the ratings I gave versatility meant "This archetype enables you to build a character that can do a lot of different things." I believe this has merit. I think the most emphasised bit in others ratings was "This archetype allows for a greater variety of strategies than would otherwise be available to this class." which has less value IMO, but not zero.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Char-Gen addict wrote:
Quote:
Monk of the Seven Winds Dip Power 2, Dip Versatility 0, Power 1 Versatility -1: Trading Stunning Fist for an additional attack with a blade is nice, if you have a dip build that is dependent on unarmed strikes while not being a Monk or Brawler. The bonuses to attack, damage, and AC from Sirocco Fury are in no way, shape, or form worth losing Abundant Step over.

Why not good for a brawler? If you take a slashing weapon from the close weapon list (like the rope gauntlet) you get the close weapon mastery damage.

Not criticising the rating, just the statement of not being good for the brawler.

No, I misunderstood something. I thought you weren't able to multiclass into a parent class from a hybrid class. I see that this is wrong. I'll update things accordingly, since this actually seems like a pretty good dip in that light.

Alex Mack wrote:
JAMRenaissance wrote:
I do agree with the thought that combining archetypes is of most import... which is where my second thread comes in. What do you think are some solid combinations that we can put forward for others?
The difficulty is that there are so many...it might make sense to emphasize certain archetype combos as you did above or add a subsection to each archetype and add something like can be combined with ... works well with ... that would be an awful lot of work... Revel has done some of that work but his guide is pretty outdated by now. Maybe the thread over at GitP is more up to date.

Working on adding recommended combos right now. I'm trying to finish that and to flesh out the Master of Many Styles section by reviewing the styles themselves.

Grond wrote:
Silver Surfer wrote:
To be honest I really dont like how "power" and "versatility" are used in the definitions of the archetypes....
I agree. I like the blue/green/orange/red color scheme that is pretty much the standard for grading out classes or archetypes.

I actually believe that the color coded system would be LESS controversial than the power/versatility ratings at this point.

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JAMRenaissance wrote:
I thought you weren't able to multiclass into a parent class from a hybrid class.

That was indeed prohibited during the playtest, but quietly dropped from the final release of the book.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Here is the latest run through on the Monk, adding in a section on Master of Many Styles and archetype compatibilities among the recommended archetypes.

Monk

Spoiler:

Drunken Master Power +2, Versatility 0: The ability to regain ki is incredibly, INCREDIBLY important, and Still Mind is NOTHING to lose in exchange for the ability to regain ki. The other replacements are side grades. but this one makes the archetype.Recommended Archetype Combinations: Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Lotus, Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Monk of the Four Winds/Sensei, Monk of the Lotus/Sensei, Serpent-Fire Adept, Weapon Adept

Far Strike Monk Dip Power +1, Dip Versatility -1, Power +1, Versatility -2: Congratulations! You are now a one trick distance pony without even getting the best distance trick (bows). The ability to get a lot of the distance attack Feats is nice, and the thought of throwing a flurry of pellet grenades is cool, but it's nowhere near worth it as a whole.

Hamatulasu Master  Dip Power +2, Dip Versatility 0, Power +2, Versatility +1: This is a huge upgrade to the weak Bonus Feats (Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Impaling Critical, and Improved Impaling Critical), plus having the option of trading out Feats for additional Stunning Fists can be useful depending on the build. You're given more options with your Stunning Fists and Ki usage with zero tradeoff. Finally, Infernal Resilience will undoubtedly come up more than Purity of Body. An almost pure upgrade to the Monk. Note that Hamatulasu is added to the list of potential bonus feats for ANY Monk, which is why it is not listed above.Recommended Archetype Combinations: Monk of the Healing Hand, Monk of the Iron Mountain

Harrow Warden  Dip Power 0, Dip Versatility +1, Power 0, Versatility +2: Idiot Strike's debuff is a huge increase in the versatility of a Stunning Fist, and Mute Hag Stance is a great debuff that not only does not allow a Will Save, but doesn't even require an action. Eclipse Strike will probably not come into play, but anything that lets a Monk make his enemies a bunny is a good thing. This is another "Pure Buff To The Monk" archetype.Recommended Archetype Combinations: Master of Many Styles

Hungry Ghost Monk  Dip Power 0, Dip Versatility +1, Power +1, Versatility +2: Punishing Kick is something of a sidegrade from Stunning Fist, but it does allow more options at first level. The real bonus is the ability to replenish your ki by stealing it from others. You trade the difficulties of regaining ki with the difficulties of being a bad person for stealing life force... which for some makes no difference. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Master of Many Styles, Monk of the Iron Mountain, Sensei

Karmic Monk Dip Power 1, Dip Versatility 0, Power 1, Versatility 2: Karmic Strike is a nice way of getting a small buff every time someone attacks you the first time. The real strength, though, is the ability to switch damage alignments to ignore DR, and to temporarily modify your character's alignment. The latter can be a huge bonus in the right build.

Kata Master Dip Power -1, Dip Versatility 1, Power -2, Versatility 0: RIP Opportune Parry and Riposte. That said, the combination of the available Swashbucker leaves some nice flavor. Unfortunately, this involves taking the most MAD character class and adding another important attribute(CHA). Good luck with that.

Ki Mystic  Power 0, Versatility 2: Ahhh... THAT'S the stuff. Free ki (and a level earlier), the ability to give allies re-rolls, a bonus to all knowledge skills, divination, AND it stacks with a number of other helpful archetypes. The latter is huge, as a combo of this with Sensei, Monk of the Four Winds, or Master of Many Styles ends up being pretty sweet.Recommended Archetype Combinations: Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Lotus, Master of Many Styles/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Monk of the Four Winds/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Monk of the Four Winds/Sensei, Serpent-Fire Adept

Manuever Master Dip Power 0, Dip Versatility 1: Another pure buff to the Bonus Feats. The extra manuever is actually somewhat underwhelming, as you can already substitute most of the more useful attacks for a manuever except for Grappling, and there are other ways to become good at that (see Tetori, below).

Martial Artist Power 1, Versatility -2: There aren't a lot of ways to make a Monk worse. Dropping ki to eliminate DR and give SLIGHT bonuses is one of those ways.

Master of Many Styles  Power 0, Versatility 2: The former Must-Have monk archetype is still decent post-buff, but requires a level of system mastery to get anything out of it. Your bonus feats are buffed to accept any first-level Combat Style Feat, and instead of Flurrying, you can have two styles going at once. Again, depending on the styles chosen, this is nice, but it is far from easy to make this work. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken master/Monk of the Lotus, Drunken master/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Hungry Ghost Monk/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Ki Mystic/Monk of the Lotus, Ki Mystic/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Sohei

Master of Many Styles Recommendations:

The Master of Many Styles isn't the easiest of archetypes to use, but it is highly versatile. Your first two Bonus Feats must be spent on Style Feats, which are specifically defined as the FIRST Feat in a Style Tree. The 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th feats may be spent on a Style Feat, Elemental Fist, or a Wildcard Feat. The Wildcard Feats are the most interesting, as they let you sub in a higher feat in the Style Tree of any Style you are using as long as you meet the prerequisites. As you rise in level, you meet more prerequisites and have more options with your Wildcard feats.

Here are some examples:

Let's say someone wants to use the Crane and Snake Styles. Assume all skill requirements are met. Here is how this progression may look:


  • Lvl 1 Feat: Dodge
  • Lvl 1 Bonus: Crane Style
  • Lvl 2 Bonus: Snake Style
  • Lvl 5 Feat: Crane Wing
  • Lvl 6 Bonus: Wildcard Feat

When this Monk goes into her combined Crane/Snake Style, she may chose to have Crane Style/Crane Wing/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind. She cannot chose to add Crane Riposte yet, however, as she doesn't qualify for it yet. At level 7, she can choose between Crane Style/Crane Wing/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind and Crane Style/Crane Wing/Crane Riposte/Snake Style. At level 10, assuming all skill requirements are met and no other feats are invested, she may take her second Wildcard slot. Now her options are Crane Style/Crane Wing/Crane Riposte/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind, or Crane Style/Crane Wing/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind/Snake Fang, since she meets the prerequisites of every Feat in the chain.

As a second example, let's pretend we have a Crane/Snake/Panther combination monk. Her investment may look like this:


  • Lvl 1 Feat: Combat Reflexes
  • Lvl 1 Bonus: Crane Style
  • Lvl 2 Bonus: Snake Style
  • Lvl 3 Feat: Panther Style
  • Lvl 5 Feat: Dodge
  • Lvl 6 Feat: Wildcard Feat

From Lvls 3-7, the monk chooses any combination of two desired between Crane Style, Snake Style, and Panther Style. At level six, she may choose the second feat from any active slot to add to the style. At level 8, she may have all three going at once, choosing the second feat of any of the three at any given point as the Wildcard feat. Finally, at Level 10, if she takes a second Wildcard Feat, she can complete the entire chain of any of the three while having the two base styles going, or can have two of the second tier feats going along with the base of the third.

Styles with a fairly small number of Feat-based prerequisites and lower minimal level requirements become preferable in this system; you want to be able to Wildcard up the tree as quickly as possible for maximum benefit.

Here are the Style ratings. The style is listed with required Feats, minimum required level due to a Monk level requirement or a skill rank requirement and a short summary of the effects for each of the three feats in the tree. Note that Skill requirements are considered negligible for the purposes of this analysis; a monk gets enough skill points without investing in Intelligence to make any skill requirement fairly easy to meet.

+2 (No Feat Prerequisites, Wildcardable ASAP, good benefits)


  • Boar Style (Flesh tear 2d6 bonus damage when you hit twice) / Boar Ferocity (Lvl 6, Free Intimidate with flesh tear) / Boar Shred (Lvl 9 Demoralize as move, bleed with flesh tear)
  • Dragon Style (1.5 STR bonus on first hit) / Dragon Ferocity (Lvl 5, 1.5 STR bonus every hit, qualifies for Elemental Fist) / Dragon Roar (Lvl 8 concussive blast) (NOTE: archetypes that remove Stunning Fist should not take this style beyond Dragon Style)
  • Janni Style (Charge easier and smaller flanking penalty), Janni Tempest (Lvl 5, +4 to bull rush or trip after a hit w/ no AoO from target), Janni Rush (Lvl 8, double dice damage on charge)
  • Mantis Syle (+1 SF/day & +2 to DC of SF) / Mantis Wisdom (Lvl 6: Touch to remove SF; +2 to hit SF) / Mantis Torment (Lvl 9, +1 SF/day, 2 Sfs to Stagger and Fatigue) (NOTE: archetypes that remove Stunning Fist should not take this style)
  • Panther Style (Retaliatory Unarmed Strike on movement AoO) / Panther Claw (Combat Reflexes, Free action to retaliate WIS/day) / Panther Parry (Retaliatory Attacks go first, penalizes attacker if hits) (NOTE: This Style has no level-based prerequisites, which gave it a higher rating than normal)
  • Pummelling Style (Add all FoB damage before DR) / Pummeling Charge (Lvl 8, Allows FoB at end of charge) (NOTE: Pummeling Bully is NOT a prerequisite for Pummeling Charge)
  • Snapping Turtle Style (+1AC with free hand) / Snapping Turtle Clutch (Lvl 3 & Improved Grapple, free grapple when missed) / Snapping Turtle Shell (Lvl 5, +2 to AC with free hand) (NOTE: This was graded a level higher as the entire chain can be completed by Lvl 6)

+1 (Feat/High Prerequisites with good benefits and Wildcardable ASAP)

  • Crane Style (Dodge, -2/+3 AC Fighting defensively) / Crane Wing (Lvl 5, enhanced dodge bonus) / Crane Riposte (Lvl 7, -2/+4 AC and AoO on misses)
  • Jabbing Style (+1d6 with each successive hit) / Jabbing Dancer (Lvl 5 & Mobility, 5 ft step per hit) / Jabbing Master (Lvl 8, +2d6/+4d6 on successive hits)
  • Pummelling Style (Add all FoB damage before DR) / Pummeling Bully (Lvl 5, Imp Reposition & Imp. Trip, Free trip or reposition with FoB)
  • Snake Style (Immediate action to use Sense Motive as AC) / Snake Sidewind (Lvl 6, Sense Motive to confirm crits) / Snake Fang (Lvl 9 & Combat Reflexes, Snake Style misses allow 1-2 AoO)
  • Tiger Style (bleed damage with slashing attacks on crit) / Tiger Claw (Lvl 5, single attack bull rushes opp away), Tiger Pounce (Power Attack, Power Attack penalty to AC)

0 (Cheap but fairly useless)

  • Earth Child Style (+6 Dodge against Giants) / Earth Child Topple (Lvl 6 & Improved Trip, Trip Giants) / Earth Child Binder (Lvl 9 & Greater Trip, free stunning fist against prone giants)
  • Grabbing Style (Improved Grapple, Grab with one hand), Grabbing Drag (Lvl 4, Move targets movement rate), Grabbing Master (Lvl 8, Move and damage two opponents at once)

-1 (Feat/High Feat requisites with good benefits but not wildcardable ASAP )

  • Efreeti Style (Elemental Fist, fire damage on misses)/ Efreeti Stance (Lvl 9, victims catch fire), Efreeti Touch (Lvl 11, Cone of fire that catches victims on fire)
  • Shaitan Style (Elemental Fist, acid damage on misses)/ Efreeti Stance (Lvl 9, victims staggered), Efreeti Touch (Lvl 11, Acid column that staggers)
  • Marid Style (Elemental Fist, +5 feet reach with elemental fist) / Marid Spirit (Lvl 9, elemental fist entangles) / Marid Coldsnap (Lvl 11, 30' ice blast)

- 2 (not wildcardable with questionable benefits)

  • Djinni Style (Elemental Fist, +2 dodge bonus against AoO) / Djinni Spirit (Lvl 9 Deafens) / Djinni Spin (Lvl 11 self-based area attack)
  • Kirin Style (identify creature for +2 saves and AC against AoO) / Kirin Strike (Lvl 9, Swift action to add INT mod 2 damage) / Kirin Path (Lvl 12, Free movement when threatened)
  • Monkey Style (Reduce penalties for being prone) / Monkey Moves (Lvl 9 Climb bonuses and 5 ft step with two hits) / Monkey Shine (Lvl 11 Share space for combat bonuses)

Natural Synergies include:

  • Boar / Jabbing Style (extra damage on multiple hits)
  • Boar / Tiger Style (slashing damage and bleed attacks)
  • Grabbing / Snapping Turtle Style (Improved Grapple requirement)
  • Panther / Snake Style (Combat Reflexes requirement)
  • Efreeti / Shaitan / Marid / Djinni / Dragon Style (Elemental Fist Requirement / Ability to get Elemental Fist)


Monk of the Empty Hand Power 0, Versatility -2: Congratulations! You have now reduced your Monk to a one-trick pony, with that one trick being improvised weapons. This is similar to Far Strike Monk, except even less useful on a practical level.

Monk of the Four Winds  Dip Power 0, Dip Versatility 0, Power 2, Versatility 1: Stunning Fist gets replaced with a scalable damage bonus in a sidegrade. Slow Time's extra actions are nice, but are a severe downgrade from Abundant Step. The Aspects are nice, and replace an ability that isn't stellar.Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken master/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Drunken master/Sensei, Ki Mystic/Monk of the Iron Mountain, Ki Mystic/Sensei

Monk of the Healing Hand  Power 0, Versatility 1: Instead of healing yourself you can heal others. However, if you have to use this your party has done something terribly wrong. Ki Sacifice lets you bring people back from the dead, which is definitely a worthy trade off from Diamond Body and Quivering Palm. This is far from as helpful as Ki Mystic, but it stacks with a few other, stronger archetypes. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Hamatulatsu Master, Monk of the Iron Mountain, Sensei, Tetori

Monk of the Iron Mountain  Power 1, Versatility 0: Evasion, Improved Evasion, Slow Fall, and High Jump get replaced with passive defenses preventing tripping and undesired movement, damage resistance, and an AC bonus. Not bad. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles, Hungry Ghost Monk/Master of Many Styles, Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles, Ki Mystic/Monk of the Four Winds

Monk of the Lotus  Dip Power 2 Versatility 0 Power 2 Versatility 2: If the Monk is on the front line, the thing s/he will want to Stunning Fist probably has a high Fort save. It also probably has a low Will Save, which makes Touch of Serenity a huge upgrade. An extended duration as you level up is gravy. As well, between Touch of Peace and Touch of Serenity, you can make your enemies into pets for almost weeks at a time with no save. Let's repeat that: you can make your enemies into pets for almost weeks at a time with no save. There is only one archetype option that is an upgrade to Abundant Step; this is it. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken master/Master of Many Styles, Drunken master/Sensei, Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles, Ki Mystic/Sensei

Monk of the Mantis Power 2 Versatility -2: Trade away those Bonus Feats for the ability to Sneak Attack with your Flurry. Yes please! The problem is that everything afterwards is a downgrade. Stunning Fist becomes less dependable as you level, so you are trading passive defense for additional effects on an iffy attack. It's simply not worth it.

Monk of the Seven WindsDip Power 2, Dip Versatility 0, Power 1 Versatility -1: Trading Stunning Fist for an additional attack with a blade is nice, if you have a dip build that is dependent on unarmed strikes. The bonuses to attack, damage, and AC from Sirocco Fury are in no way, shape, or form worth losing Abundant Step over.
Monk Vows As a whole, I can't recommend Monk Vows, as the reward:cost ratio is just too low. As well, remember that we want to sub out as many abilities as possible, and replacing Still Mind cuts you out of useful archetypes. With that said, if one were to consider taking a Monk Vow, Cleanliness, Peace, Poverty, and Truth seem to be the most bang for one's buck.

Qinggong Monk  Power 2 Versatility 2 to the fourth power: Let's be clear:
Every Monk is a Qinggong Monk.
If you don't like a class feature, you sub it out with one you do like. Here are some recommendations. 


  • Slow Fall and High Jump: Barkskin, Truestrike, Scorching Ray 
  • Wholeness of Body: Gaseous Form, Heroic Recovery, High Jump (if subbed out earlier), Remove Disease 
  • Diamond Body: Dragon's Breath (Note that nothing says you can't change the type of dragon with each usage, which does provide versatility), Discordant Blast (very few things are resistant to sound), Restoration, Ki Leech, Shadow Step 
  • Abundant Step: Shadow Walk 
  • Diamond Soul: Abundant Step (if subbed before or taken out of the archetype), Shadow Walk, Battlefield Mindlink, Diamond Body (if subbed or taken out of the archetype)(NOTE: You probably want to sub out Diamond Soul no matter what, depending on how strict your GM is in enforcing the Spell Resistance when you are willing. Anything from the Diamond Body list on up is probably sufficient for this substitution) 
  • Quivering Palm: Blood Crow Strike, Cloud Step (don't forget that you need a Slow Fall speed), Cold Ice Strike, Ki Shout, Sonic Thrust 
  • Timeless Body: Any of the Quivering Palm choices are appropriate, plus Strangling Hair 
  • Empty Body and Perfect Self: Nothing is really worth subbing out. 

Sensei  Power 1 Versatility 2: Wanna be Mr. Miyagi? You lose Fast Movement, Flurrying, and most of your bonus feats, but you gain bardic performance and the ability to confer other abilities onto your friends. The cherry on top is Wisdom to Hit, which makes this one of only two archetypes that successfully makes the Monk less MAD. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken Master, Hungry Ghost Monk, Monk of the Healing Hand, Sohei, Ki Mystic/Monk of the Four Winds, Ki Mystic/Monk of the Lotus

Serpent-Fire Adept  Power 1 Versatility 2: You lose your Stunning Fist, Bonus Feats, High Jump, Slow Fall, and Wholeness of Body in order to gain Chakras giving scaling damage resistance, flight, a breath weapon that bypasses energy resistance, healing/condition removal, staggering opponents, and true seeing. Yes, this is worth it. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken Master, Ki Mystic/Master of Many Styles

Sohei  Power 2 Versatility -1: You gain the ability to use all martial weapons and armor, can give a mount your monk abilities, and can use your ki to enhance your weapon. Why the negative Versatility? It costs eleven class abilities. If there is a second standalone archetype for a Monk besides Zen Archer, this is it. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Master of Many Styles, Sensei

Spirit MasterPower -1 Versatility -1: You gain a wide variety of abilities dealing with the incorpeal and minor manipulation of positive/negative energy. Nowhere near worth the sacrifice.

Terra Cotta Monk Just... no.

Tetori  Power 2 Versatility -1: Congratulations! You are now a one-trick pony... except Grappling is a good trick (and the second best one-trick pony Monk). Your feats are chosen for you, but all useful, and your abilities all sync well with grappling, with the grab ability, constrict ability, and the cancellation of magical methods of escape. Losing High Jump and Abundant Step are the only real negatives. This is another high-level archetype. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Monk of the Healing Hand

Weapon Adept  Dip Power: 2 Dip Versatility 0 Power 2 Versatility -1: Perfect Strike is a pure upgrade, trading a questionably useful ability for a useful one. Free Weapon Focus and Specialization is worth delaying Evasion and losing improved evasion. Uncanny Initiative is worth it and... well, no one ever makes it to the capstone anyway. Recommended Archetype Combinations: Drunken Master, Ki Mystic

Wildcat Power -2 Versatility -2: No amount of combat manuever bonuses are worth totally losing your ki pool. That is all.

Zen Archer Power 2 Versatility 0: Congratulations! You are a one trick pony with the single best trick available. It is a great trick and a lightning-fast Pony. Take the great stuff from Weapon Adept, tack on Feats all designed for your bow, add Wisdom to hit (making this the other less-MAD archetype), the ability to make attacks of opportunity, and a bunch of other goodies. This is the only archetype that raises the Monk up a Tier in power, and is the template for any other combinations of archetypes. 


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I made a mistake above; the Master of Many Styles and Sohei are NOT compatible, as each modifies the Bonus Feats. My bad.

Here are a few more sample archetype combos for the Monk.

The Bodyguard: Hamatulasu Master/Monk of the Healing Hand/Monk of the Iron Mountain
This is the classic #2 Bad Guy, capable of healing or even bring her boss back to life. Physically tough herself, using Hamatulatsu for offense and the combination of healing, raising dead, and restoration to keep her boss/client/employer in the game.

Spoiler:


  • Class Skills as Monk
  • Weapon Proficiencies as Monk 
  • Lvl 1: Hamatulatsu Bonus Feat (Dodge rec.), Stunning Fist, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike
  • Lvl 2: Hamatulatsu Bonus Feat (Weapon Focus – Unarmed rec.), Iron Monk (Toughness, +1AC)
  • Lvl 3: Manuever Training, Still Mind
  • Lvl 4: Stunning Fist (shaken), Ki Pool (w/ ki for extra SF), Bastion Stance (cannot be prone or moved)
  • Lvl 5: Infernal Resilience (immune to pain, +2 to conditions), Iron Limb Defense (+2 to AC)
  • Lvl 6: Hamatulatsu Bonus Feat (Hamatulatsu rec.)
  • Lvl 7: Ancient Healing Hand (ki to heal)
  • Lvl 8:Stunning Fist (nonlethal bleed)
  • Lvl 9: Adamantine Monk (DR 1/-)
  • Lvl 10: Hamatulatsu Bonus Feat (Impaling Critical rec.)
  • Lvl 11: Ki Sacrifice (Raise Dead)
  • Lvl 12: Stunning Fist (frightened), Adamantine Monk (DR 2/-), Abundant Step
  • Lvl 13: Diamond Soul Restoration Recommended
  • Lvl 14: Hamatulatsu Bonus Feat (Improved Impaling Critical rec.)
  • Lvl 15: Ki Sacrifice (Resurrection), Adamantine Monk (DR 3/-)
    Other Notes: Keeps AC Bonus and Unarmed Damage, and Fast Movement 

True Drunken Master:Drunken Master/Monk of the Four Winds/Sensei
The burden of wisdom is too much for some. She is still capable of using the very knowledge that drove her to drink to devastating effect. Though often of low STR, the Drunken Master ups her damage with Elemental Fists and Drunken Strength while aiding her teammates via Sensei abilities, Slowing Time, and linking everyone's minds.

Spoiler:


  • Class Skills as Monk plus Diplomacy, Linguistics, and all Knowledge
  • Weapon Proficiencies as Monk 
  • Lvl 1: Advice (Inspire Courage), Elemental Fist, Unarmed Strike
  • Lvl 2: Inspired Strike (WIS to hit)
  • Lvl 3: Drunken Ki (drink for ki), Advice (Inspire Confidence)
  • Lvl 4: Slow Fall Barkskin rec.
  • Lvl 5: Drunken Strength (ki for damage), High Jump
  • Lvl 6: Mystic Wisdom (Use ki pool class abilities on others)
  • Lvl 7: Wholeness of Body Gaseous Form rec.
  • Lvl 8:
  • Lvl 9: Advice (Inspire Greatness)
  • Lvl 10: Mystic Wisdom (Share non-ki-pool class abilities) 
  • Lvl 11: Drunken Courage (Immune to fear)
  • Lvl 12: Slow Time (6 ki for 3 standard actions)
  • Lvl 13: Drunken Resilency (DR 1/-)
  • Lvl 14: Mystic Wisdom (Share Diamond Abilities)
  • Lvl 15: Quivering Palm Battlefield Mindlink rec.
    Other Notes: Keeps AC Bonus and Unarmed Damage, Loses Fast Movement. Builds will often have a low STR, using WIS to hit and Drunken Strength / Elemental Fist for damage enhancement.

The Bleeding Ghost:Hungry Ghost Monk / Master of Many Styles
The Bleeding Ghost maximizes the usage of of his Hungry Ghost abilities by maximizing both potential attacks per turn via Two Weapon Fighting and Snake Fang, and damage with Jabbing Style and Boar Style. Snake Sidewind allows for confirmation of criticals via Sense Motive, giving more chances to steal ki. All Feats are taken to maximize Master of Many Styles.

Spoiler:


  • Class Skills as Monk, plus Handle Animal
  • Weapon Proficiencies : simple and martial weapons.
  • Lvl 1: MoMS Bonus Feat (Jabbing Style), Fuse Style, Unarmed Strike, Punishing Kick (pushes opponent)
  • Lvl 2: MoMS Bonus Feat (Snake Style; Snake/Jabbing possible), Evasion
  • Lvl 3: (Boar Style/Snake Style or Boar Style/Jabbing Style possible), Maneuver Training, Still Mind
  • Lvl 4: Slow Fall Truestrike rec.
  • Lvl 5: Steal Ki (regain ki from critical or 0 health), High Jump
  • Lvl 6: MoMS Bonus Feat (Wildcard; Boar Style/Boar Ferocity/Snake Style or Boar Style/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind, or either tree with Pummeling Style possible)
  • Lvl 7: Life Funnel (heal instead of taking ki) (Boar Style/Boar Ferocity/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind or either tree with Jabbing Style possible)
  • Lvl 8: (Boar Style/Boar Ferocity/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind/ Jabbing Style)
  • Lvl 9: Improved Evasion, (Boar Style/Boar Ferocity/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind/Snake Fang/ Jabbing Style or Boar Style/Boar Ferocity/Boar Shred/Snake Style/Snake Sidewind/ Jabbing Style)
  • Lvl 10: MoMS Bonus Feat (Wildcard; Full Boar Style/Snake Style Trees, plus Jabbing Style)
  • Lvl 11: Life From A Stone (Steal ki from any creature)
  • Lvl 12: Abundant Step
  • Lvl 13: Sipping Demon (gain temp hit points from attacks)
  • Lvl 14: MoMS Bonus Feat (Pummeling Style; can replace any tree listed above with Pummeling Style/Pummeling Charge by dropping highest Wildcard)
  • Lvl 15: Quivering Palm Cold Ice Strike rec.
    Other Notes: Keeps AC Bonus, Unarmed Damage, and Fast Movement. This archetype combo assumes Two Weapon Fighting is taken at Lvl 1, Boar Style at Lvl 3, Combat Reflexes at Lvl 5, Snake Sidewind at Lvl 7, and Boar Ferocity at Lvl 9


^Wow, this could morph into a whole new Monk guide (and that's not even getting to Unchained Monk yet). Maybe even a guide specific to Master of Many Styles, which looks like it is needed (and I wonder if Unchained Monk will ever get an equivalent archetype, the way it rolls in Qinggong).

One other note I would put in is that if you have Natural Weapons, archetypes like Master of Many Styles that trade out Flurry of Blows get better, since you cannot use Natural Attacks with Flurry of Blows unless you invest in Weapon Focus ({your type of Natural Attack, just 1 type at a time}) and Feral Combat Training ({your type of Natural Attack, just 1 type at a time}), which is a substantial feat tax even if you have just 1 type of Natural Attack and gets prohibitive if you have more than 1 type of Natural Attack (each one needing its tax of 2 feats to be made usable with Flurry of Blows).

* * * * * * * *

Kurald Galain wrote:

{. . .}

Strangler: pow +1, vrs -1 - gives some decent bonuses for niche grappler builds, and is not much use for anything else. Becoming a good grappler will require more than just taking this archetype, though.
{. . .}

Right now, this archetype is bugged to be nearly unusable, because to use it you need to grapple, but it doesn't give you Improved Grapple, and not only that, it takes away Unarmed Strike which is a prerequisite for Improved Grapple. Right now, it is basically only usable if you consume both feats that a Human gets at 1st level on Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple, or if you dip in something else that gives you Improved Grapple or an equivalent ability (such as Tetori Monk or White-Haired Witch). Until (if?) This gets Errata'd, I would rate this as Dip power -2, versatility -2; Full power -1, versatility -1, with the power ratings getting upgraded to somewhere in the range -1 to +1 for extremely specific builds that are crafted to work around the above-mentioned bugs in this archetype).


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Wow, this could morph into a whole new Monk guide (and that's not even getting to Unchained Monk yet). Maybe even a guide specific to Master of Many Styles, which looks like it is needed (and I wonder if Unchained Monk will ever get an equivalent archetype, the way it rolls in Qinggong).

One other note I would put in is that if you have Natural Weapons, archetypes like Master of Many Styles that trade out Flurry of Blows get better, since you cannot use Natural Attacks with Flurry of Blows unless you invest in Weapon Focus ({your type of Natural Attack, just 1 type at a time}) and Feral Combat Training ({your type of Natural Attack, just 1 type at a time}), which is a substantial feat tax even if you have just 1 type of Natural Attack and gets prohibitive if you have more than 1 type of Natural Attack (each one needing its tax of 2 feats to be made usable with Flurry of Blows).

A Monk requires a sickening level of System Mastery in order to create something thematically workable while being mechanically efficient. I hope that the stuff I'm doing actually helps people.

Wouldn't natural weapons be a really niche thing for a Monk? I haven't done that sort of analysis.


Apologies for not being the beacon of commentation, though I try my best!

A couple of updates. First, I am going to slow down a bit, though I will be making sure to format everything to the best of my capacity and put it on the master sheet. This is mostly from specific parts of life that take up more time, mainly the research and writing required for a college thesis and a couple of upcoming trips I am going on.

That being said I love the discussions on this thread, being generally very civil and constructive, which is good! A couple of points I would like to make though.

1. I agree that in terms of ranking, a +2 or -2 are very grave rankings. The classes that have that score should really deserve it. That being said, that is why I have allowed comments on the main page and the discussion in the thread so that we can talk about and re-affirm scores as quickly as possible.

2. I also see more then a couple of people talking about the ranking system. I'll go over the intention of it.

Power represents the mechanical benefits that a class obtains by grabbing an archetype in correlation with what the archetype also replaces from the base class. So even if a class loses a plethora of class abilities, if the abilities gained are very good then this is less of a problem (Arcane Duelist Bard Archetype).

Versatility represents the options that an archetype opens up for a class that was not present in the base class. An archetype that heavily changes what a class is capable of, even if they don't necessarily become more powerful, is a hallmark of versatility.

The number system assigned to these values is representative of both the general color coded system, and also saves time when looking at the overall strength of an archetype.

The main reason I decided to go the route that I did in terms of ranking was to allow new players an immediate and concise method of determining an archetypes strengths and weaknesses, with the explanation set after the score in case the player is still curious about the ranking. For example, the following archetype;

Beastmorph

Power +2

Versatility +1

Indicates to a new player, without an explanation, the strengths of the archetype and that it gives them more options then the base class. If it was just the name of the archetype in the color blue, then a new player would probably have to read the explanation after in order to understand why it got a blue ranking in the first place.

That's just my take on it at least. Could it be better? Maybe, but with how many archetypes have been ranked based on this formula, it is a little late to change it all again :3.

Finally for archetypes that are very good in certain campaigns, I would still rank them as they would be if they were not in those perfect campaigns (Such as Demon Hunters).

Got any other questions? Let me know!


UnArcaneElection wrote:


Kurald Galain wrote:

{. . .}

Strangler: pow +1, vrs -1 - gives some decent bonuses for niche grappler builds, and is not much use for anything else. Becoming a good grappler will require more than just taking this archetype, though.
{. . .}

Right now, this archetype is bugged to be nearly unusable, because to use it you need to grapple, but it doesn't give you Improved Grapple, and not only that, it takes away Unarmed Strike which is a prerequisite for Improved Grapple. Right now, it is basically only usable if you consume both feats that a Human gets at 1st level on Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple, or if you dip in something else that gives you Improved Grapple or an equivalent ability (such as Tetori Monk or White-Haired Witch). Until (if?) This gets Errata'd, I would rate this as Dip power -2, versatility -2; Full power -1, versatility -1, with the power ratings getting upgraded to somewhere in the range -1 to +1 for extremely specific builds that are crafted to work around the above-mentioned bugs in this archetype).

I absolutely disagree with most of this. I'm running a Strangler right now and (Full progression) +1/-1 actually sounds fair (might be selling it a bit short). While it does push you towards grapple focused builds (which is hardly a problem, grapple is solid) it doesn't trade away Martial Flexibility, and I have trouble saying any martial with full progression MF is losing out too much on versatility.

And, actually for non-brawler grapple based characters, this still works as a solid dip because you pick up sneak dice on your grapple and (as I mentioned earlier) you still get MF.

All in all, +1/-1 sounds perfectly fair.


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Love seeing my two favorite Magus archetypes as heavy negatives.. :-) Flavor >> Mechanics always.


Could you get the same flavor with the core magus?


CWheezy wrote:
Could you get the same flavor with the core magus?

Not really. The Kapenia Dancer is a very specific style of character that's hard to duplicate any other way. The Soul Forger is hands down one of the best weapon/armor smiths in the game.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Icy Turbo wrote:

1. I agree that in terms of ranking, a +2 or -2 are very grave rankings. The classes that have that score should really deserve it. That being said, that is why I have allowed comments on the main page and the discussion in the thread so that we can talk about and re-affirm scores as quickly as possible.

2. I also see more then a couple of people talking about the ranking system. I'll go over the intention of it.

Power represents the mechanical benefits that a class obtains by grabbing an archetype in correlation with what the archetype also replaces from the base class. So even if a class loses a plethora of class abilities, if the abilities gained are very good then this is less of a problem (Arcane Duelist Bard Archetype).

Versatility represents the options that an archetype opens up for a class that was not present in the base class. An archetype that heavily changes what a class is capable of, even if they don't necessarily become more powerful, is a hallmark of versatility.

The number system assigned to these values is representative of both the general color coded system, and also saves time when looking at the overall strength of an archetype.

The main reason I decided to go the route that I did in terms of ranking was to allow new players an immediate and concise method of determining an archetypes strengths and weaknesses, with the explanation set after the score in case the player is still curious about...

+2/-2 cannot be all that grave without creating a meaningless system. Let's say the top 10% each way are +2/-2. That means the other three possibilities cover 80% of what is available.

Either the ends need to cover more, or there needs to be more levels in between. It's not granular enough.

Similarly, in terms of "the mechanical benefits" vs "options that it sets up", things are unclear. In looking at the Monk, I asked myself "What is The Core Monk's Thing?" Whatever it's thing is, if it can do that thing better, that is an increase in power. If it can do additional things besides "their thing", that's an increase in versatility.

So I'm looking at Arcane Duelist as an example. Is a Bard's "thing" fighting? Not really. The Arcane Duelist limits the Bard's ability to affect others in favor of more fighting. In that way, it's "power" (ability to buff or debuff others) is actually DIMINISHED in this light, though it's "versatility" goes up, since it is now more capable of doing something that is not "it's thing".

I think I kind of get where you're going, but it isn't clear. I think this is where using the generalized color coding may be better.

With that said, I'd love for someone to come through and give ideas about the Monk ratings...


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CraziFuzzy wrote:
Love seeing my two favorite Magus archetypes as heavy negatives.. :-) Flavor >> Mechanics always.

I'm just going to quote a wise fa/tg/uy

Quote:


Storytelling is your left foot.
Gaming Rules is your right foot.
Playing rpgs is walking.

Some people favor one foot over the other for whatever reason and that limping, but still walking.
Some people favor only using one foot and just hop, this appears silly to some as it is not really walking.
Some people insist that hopping on one foot is the only way to walk, otherwise you simply aren't walking. These people are suffering from some form of mental ailment and are best treated as such.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
^Wow, this could morph into a whole new Monk guide (and that's not even getting to Unchained Monk yet). Maybe even a guide specific to Master of Many Styles, which looks like it is needed (and I wonder if Unchained Monk will ever get an equivalent archetype, the way it rolls in Qinggong).

I think a new monk guide could be really useful, since the (non-Unchained) monk stands alone as literally the only class not only would you never use without an archetype, you would never use it without at least two (the archetype that adds something useful, and qinggong). Unless you're starting with one of the more powerful archetypes (e.g. ZAM) you're probably going to want at least three archetypes since, after all the Drunken Master only really shines when you get something better to spend Ki on.

The sheer volume of "stuff you need to understand to make a monk who isn't terrible" would probably be best explained in a new guide entirely.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

JAMRenaissance wrote:


+2/-2 cannot be all that grave without creating a meaningless system. Let's say the top 10% each way are +2/-2. That means the other three possibilities cover 80% of what is available.

Perhaps you should look up the actual numbers instead of going "let's assume X, and if X is true then the guide is bad" :P


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Kurald Galain wrote:
JAMRenaissance wrote:


+2/-2 cannot be all that grave without creating a meaningless system. Let's say the top 10% each way are +2/-2. That means the other three possibilities cover 80% of what is available.

Perhaps you should look up the actual numbers instead of going "let's assume X, and if X is true then the guide is bad" :P

Then perhaps there should be specific numbers about what is meant to be the desired amount of +2's and not randomly yell "TOO MANY +2 POWER" at people?

This is a crowdsourced document in which people are volunteering. I have asked, more than once, for input on what may be more acceptable rankings, particularly given the nature of the class I'm choosing to analyze (Monk). If you are so genuinely bothered by this, PLEASE feel free to go through and re-rank them. I'd love to bounce ideas off of people for which are the best archetypes to build around. In fact, anything constructive would be great!


The existing pre-Unchained Monk guides seem to be rather outdated (unless one of them got updated after I last looked at it), and we don't even have an Unchained Monk guide (unless this got stealthed into one of the others), so new guides for both seem in order. (I'm going to have to go back and look at the existing Monk guides later to see if anything like this sneaked into one of them.)

With respect to ratings and bin fill ratios: If you have -2 to +2 with bins having exactly the same amount of stuff in them, each one gets 20%. But with moderate distortion, you can get something like 10%, 25%, 30%, 25%, 10% or 15%, 20%, 30%, 20%, 15%. This could be done on purpose to give an approximation of a bell curve, but more likely, sheer accident of the particular classes and archetypes being rated is going to throw off the distribution from the ideal, such as with pre-Unchained Monk, for which the great majority of the archetypes are noticeably better than the vanilla class, and an unusally high number of them are a lot better. To a lesser extent, power creep during design over extended periods tends to do this to classes that have a lot of archetypes introduced well after the original class was introduced (although usually not to such an extent as for Monk), exccept when the class is already considered very high Tier (unfairly or fairly), such as Cleric and Wizard.


JAMRenaissance wrote:
Kurald Galain wrote:
JAMRenaissance wrote:


+2/-2 cannot be all that grave without creating a meaningless system. Let's say the top 10% each way are +2/-2. That means the other three possibilities cover 80% of what is available.

Perhaps you should look up the actual numbers instead of going "let's assume X, and if X is true then the guide is bad" :P

Then perhaps there should be specific numbers about what is meant to be the desired amount of +2's and not randomly yell "TOO MANY +2 POWER" at people?

This is a crowdsourced document in which people are volunteering. I have asked, more than once, for input on what may be more acceptable rankings, particularly given the nature of the class I'm choosing to analyze (Monk). If you are so genuinely bothered by this, PLEASE feel free to go through and re-rank them. I'd love to bounce ideas off of people for which are the best archetypes to build around. In fact, anything constructive would be great!

You've gotten plenty of feedback on that here and I pointed out that assigning +2 Power to !10! different Archetypes is not feasible.

Others have suggested that only Zen Archer and Qinggong deserve a +2 (an assessment I personally agree with).

I also criticized the rating of a specific Archetype. Your response did not necessarily inspire me to continue discussing with you tbh.


Alex Mack wrote:
Others have suggested that only Zen Archer and Qinggong deserve a +2 (an assessment I personally agree with).

I think a lot of those monk +2s could easily be +1s and still convey a lot of the same information (a la "this is a good archetype.")

Just consider: is the Monk of the Lotus closer in power to the Zen Archer or to the Serpent-Fire Adept? If it's the latter, it should be a +1 and not a +2.

One standard to consider is whether you would recommend an archetype to a player wanting to play a monk in the following parties:
Oracle, Alchemist, Sorcerer
Magus, Inquisitor, Paladin
Ranger, Cavalier, Gunslinger

Monks that can contribute meaningfully to the top group are +2, monks that can fit in with the second group are +1, and monk archetypes that can't fit in with the last group should probably be avoided.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Alex Mack wrote:


You've gotten plenty of feedback on that here and I pointed out that assigning +2 Power to !10! different Archetypes is not feasible.

Others have suggested that only Zen Archer and Qinggong deserve a +2 (an assessment I personally agree with).

Let me stop you right there. There are 27 Monk archetypes, not counting Qinggong. You just said it would be fine if I kept it at two archetypes getting a +2 Power, which is a lot less than 20%. So the problem isn't that I'm skewing the amounts; it's that I'm skewing the amounts in a way that you don't agree with. This is a subjective process; we won't necessarily agree.

Alex Mack wrote:


I also criticized the rating of a specific Archetype. Your response did not necessarily inspire me to continue discussing with you tbh.

Same thing here. I value the ability to deal with a conventional frontline situation more than the ability to deal with what I'd deem a niche one. The biggest problem with the Monk is that, even compared to other "mundanes", it's not very effective at melee combat. Going from needing a Fort Save to needing a Will Save is a huge boost in power in that paradigm. You happen to subscribe to a different one.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Alex Mack wrote:
Others have suggested that only Zen Archer and Qinggong deserve a +2 (an assessment I personally agree with).

I think a lot of those monk +2s could easily be +1s and still convey a lot of the same information (a la "this is a good archetype.")

So now we're okay with a bell curve, at least in concept?

Guys, I think we're eyeballing a situation and then wondering why we're not seeing the same things. We may not have the same vision, or at the very least I may not. Here's what I think: If someone else is cool with redoing the ratings specifying some number as the "best" archetypes besides Zen Archer, I can integrate them into what I have and redo the recommended archetype combinations based on the "best" list. I'm really not that attached to the numbers there. The numbers I have make sense to me, but my vision isn't necessarily everyone else's. Moreover, I may have been shortchanging things with my list of recommended combos; I actually think there's some really good stuff to be mined from the "lesser" archetypes.

That brings me to where I personally want to go next. I really don't like the level of system mastery needed to make the Monk work. I don't know if this guide would be a good place to do this or if the concept is one that has evolved beyond the original archetype guide, but I think one thing that can be done is putting the archetype combos into an easy format that people can easily replicate and follow. I'm thinking of calling the idea Hybrid Archetypes. They will be a combination of archetypes formatted together in a manner that is thematically consistent while still being at the least more viable than the original Monk. As well, a few recommendations can be included, specifically for Qinggong substitutions, Master of Many Styles Feat progressions, and just general helpful hints. Admittedly, the first one may not be the MOST effective, but I do think it has a fun feel to it. The first couple use archetypes that I previously thought I'd find no use for. Shows how much I know, and how much it may help to have someone else take a look at things.

Wrestler (Kata Master / Tetori)

Spoiler:

Designed as a fighting style that could be practiced while under the guard of enemy authorities, the Wrestler lulls her foe into believing her abilities are not real. To their detriment, they find that the Wrestler can back up her showy flair with an assortment of devastating holds and hindering strikes. If Jackie Chan is the prototypical Kata Master, Brock Lesnar is the prototypical Wrestler - seemingly fake, but very, VERY real.

Bonus Feat

A wrestler gains the following bonus feats: 1st level—Improved Grapple, 2nd level—Stunning Pin, 6th level—Greater Grapple, 10th level—Pinning Knockout, 14th level—Chokehold, 18th level—Neckbreaker.

These feats replace a monk’s normal bonus feats.

Panache

At 1st level, a wrestler gains the swashbuckler's panache class ability. At the start of each day, a wrestler gains a number of panache points equal to her Charisma bonus (minimum 1). Her panache goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than his Charisma bonus (minimum 1). A wrestler gains the swashbuckler's derring-do and dodging panache opportune parry and riposte deeds. A wrestler can use an unarmed strike or monk special weapon in place of a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon for granted swashbuckler class features and deeds.
This ability replaces stunning fist.

Graceful Grappler (Ex)

A wrestler uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine CMB and CMD for grappling. At 4th level, he suffers no penalties on attack rolls, can make attacks of opportunity while grappling, and retains his Dexterity bonus to AC when pinning an opponent or when grappled. At 8th level, a wrestler gains the grab special attack when using unarmed strikes, and can use this ability against creatures his own size or smaller by spending 1 point from his ki pool, or against larger creatures by spending 2 points from his ki pool. At 15th level, a wrestler gains the constrict special attack, inflicting his unarmed strike damage on any successful grapple check.

This ability replaces flurry of blows.

Menacing Swordplay (Ex)

At 3rd level, a wrestler gains the swashbuckler's menacing swordplay deed.

This ability replaces still mind.

Ki Pool (Su)

At 4th level, a wrestler can treat ki points as panache points for any swashbuckler deed gained through this archetype. This ability modifies ki pool.

Counter-Grapple (Ex)

At 4th level, a wrestler wrestler may make an attack of opportunity against a creature attempting to grapple him. This ability does not allow the wrestler to make an attack of opportunity against a creature with the Greater Grapple feat. At 6th level, he may use counter-grapple even if his attacker has concealment or total concealment, at 8th level even if he is flat-footed, and at 10th level even if his attacker has exceptional reach.

This ability replaces slow fall.

Break Free (Ex)

At 5th level, a wrestler adds his monk level on combat maneuver or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple. If a wrestler fails a save against an effect that causes him to become entangled, paralyzed, slowed, or staggered, he may spend 1 point from his ki pool as an immediate action to attempt a new save.

This ability replaces high jump.

Targeted Strike (Ex)

At 7th level, a wrestler gains the swashbuckler's targeted strike deed.

This ability replaces wholeness of body.

Inescapable Grasp (Su)

At 9th level, a wrestler can spend 1 point from his ki pool to suppress his opponents’ freedom of movement and magical bonuses to Escape Artist or on checks to escape a grapple. At 13th level, this ability also duplicates the effect of dimensional anchor. At 17th level, the wrestler’s unarmed strike gains the ghost touch special ability, and an incorporeal creature that he strikes gains the grappled condition (Reflex negates, DC 10 + 1/2 the wrestler’s level + his Wisdom modifier). Inescapable grasp is a swift action and lasts until the beginning of the wrestler’s next turn.

This ability replaces abundant step, improved evasion, timeless body, and tongue of the sun and moon.

Form Lock (Su)

At 13th level, a wrestler can negate a polymorph effect by touch with a Wisdom check, adding a bonus equal to his monk level, against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the effect (or HD of the creature, for supernatural polymorph effects). This is a standard action requiring 2 points from the wrestler’s ki pool, or an immediate action if a creature the wrestler is grappling attempts to use a polymorph effect.

This ability replaces diamond soul.

Dizzying Defense (Ex)

At 15th level, a wrestler gains the dizzying defense swashbuckler deed.

This ability replaces quivering palm.

Iron Body (Su)

At 19th level, as a move action, a wrestler can make his tissues ultra-dense for 1 minute as the iron body spell by spending 3 points from his ki pool.

This ability replaces empty body.

Potential Qinggong Substitutions and Recommendations: Diamond Body, Quivering Palm, Perfect Self. Restoration, Heroic Recovery, and Discordant Blast are thematic recommendations.

Other Notes: This Hybrid Archetype does not necessarily require a high CHA. Recall that you are always given a minimum of 1 Panache and, more importantly, you can spend Ki as Panache once you gain your Ki Pool.

Weapon Master(Manuever Master / Weapon Adept)

Spoiler:

The Weapon Master takes her connection to her weapons to the next level, switching between devastating strikes and complex maneuvers to confound and defeat her opponents. Those foolish enough to face a Weapon Master often find themselves weaponless, fallen, or both before being pummelled into unconsciousness.

Bonus Feat

In addition to normal monk bonus feats, a weapon master may select any Improved combat maneuver feat (such as Improved Overrun) as a bonus feat.

At 6th level and above, he may select any Greater combat maneuver feat (such as Greater Grapple) as a bonus feat.

At 10th level and above, he may select any maneuver Strike feat (such as Tripping Strike) as a bonus feat.

Perfect Strike (Ex)

At 1st level, a weapon master gains Perfect Strike as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 10th level, the monk can roll his attack roll three times and take the higher result. If one of these rolls is a critical threat, he can choose which one of his other two rolls to use as his confirmation roll.

This ability replaces stunning fist.

Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex)

At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a weapon master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The weapon master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.

At 8th level, a weapon master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks.

At 15th level, a weapon master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks.

A weapon master loses this ability when wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load.

This ability replaces flurry of blows.

Way of the Weapon Master (Ex)

At 2nd level, a weapon master gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat with one of his monk weapons. At 6th level, the monk gains Weapon Specialization with the same weapon as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

This ability replaces evasion.

Maneuver Defense (Ex)

At 3rd level, if a weapon master has an Improved combat maneuver feat, any creature attempting that maneuver against the weapon master provokes an attack of opportunity, even if it would not normally do so.
This ability replaces still mind.

Reliable Maneuver (Ex)

At 4th level, as a swift action, a weapon master may spend 1 point from his ki pool before attempting a combat maneuver. He can roll his combat maneuver check for that maneuver twice and use the better result.
This ability replaces slow fall.

Meditative Maneuver (Ex)

At 5th level, as a swift action, a weapon master can add his Wisdom modifier on any combat maneuver check he makes before the beginning of his next turn. He must choose which combat maneuver check to grant the bonus to before making the combat maneuver check.
This ability replaces purity of body.

Evasion (Ex)

At 9th level, the monk gains evasion.

This ability replaces improved evasion.

Sweeping Maneuver (Ex)

At 11th level, a weapon master can make two combat maneuvers as a standard action, as long as neither maneuver requires the weapon master to move. He may perform two identical maneuvers against two adjacent enemies, or he may perform two different combat maneuvers against the same target.
This ability replaces diamond body.

Whirlwind Maneuver (Ex)

At 15th level, once per day as a full-round action, a weapon master can attempt a single combat maneuver against every opponent he threatens, as long as the combat maneuver does not require movement. He makes a single combat maneuver check, and it applies to all targets.
This ability replaces quivering palm.

Uncanny Initiative (Ex)

At 17th level, a weapon master does not need to roll for initiative. He always treats his initiative roll as if it resulted in any number of his choosing (from 1 to 20).

This ability replaces timeless body.

Pure Power

At 20th level, a weapon master forsakes the ideals of the perfect self to become a bastion of the physical and mental virtues monks hold dear. The monk gains a +2 bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom.

This ability replaces perfect self.

Potential Qinggong Substitutions and Recommendations: High Jump, Wholeness of Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Empty Body.

Other Notes: The Kama (Trip), Nunchuku (Disarm), and Sai (Disarm) will be your weapons of choice. Characters could focus on one weapon and maneuver, or carry two weapons (Kama/Nunchuku or Kama/Sai) and invest feats in both associated maneuvers.


^Might want to keep at least some Charisma on your Wrestler, to have a shot at becoming -- for instance -- governor of a northern state.

With respect to where to put the Monk Guide, it looks like it really needs to be its own guide, with references to it from the Monk section of the archetype guide. In addition, Master of Many Styles may need its own sub-guide, and as more archetypes compatible with Unchained Monk come out (what are we at now, 2? -- and that doesn't count Qinggong, which is rolled into Unchained Monk), Unchained Monk will need its own guide.

JAMRenaissance wrote:

{. . .}

Wouldn't natural weapons be a really niche thing for a Monk? I haven't done that sort of analysis.

It depends upon who you are.. For races like Changelings and Tengu and a subset of Tieflings and Half-Orcs, this could be a big deal.

Vratix wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:


Kurald Galain wrote:

{. . .}

Strangler: pow +1, vrs -1 - gives some decent bonuses for niche grappler builds, and is not much use for anything else. Becoming a good grappler will require more than just taking this archetype, though.
{. . .}

Right now, this archetype is bugged to be nearly unusable, because to use it you need to grapple, but it doesn't give you Improved Grapple, and not only that, it takes away Unarmed Strike which is a prerequisite for Improved Grapple. Right now, it is basically only usable if you consume both feats that a Human gets at 1st level on Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple, or if you dip in something else that gives you Improved Grapple or an equivalent ability (such as Tetori Monk or White-Haired Witch). Until (if?) This gets Errata'd, I would rate this as Dip power -2, versatility -2; Full power -1, versatility -1, with the power ratings getting upgraded to somewhere in the range -1 to +1 for extremely specific builds that are crafted to work around the above-mentioned bugs in this archetype).

I absolutely disagree with most of this. I'm running a Strangler right now and (Full progression) +1/-1 actually sounds fair (might be selling it a bit short). While it does push you towards grapple focused builds (which is hardly a problem, grapple is solid) it doesn't trade away Martial Flexibility, and I have trouble saying any martial with full progression MF is losing out too much on versatility.

And, actually for non-brawler grapple based characters, this still works as a solid dip because you pick up sneak dice on your grapple and (as I mentioned earlier) you still get MF.

All in all, +1/-1 sounds perfectly fair.

I am not saying that you CAN'T make a Strangler Brawler work, but something is fundamentally wrong when you need to spend multiple feats at level 1 or first dip into another class to get critical features of your archetype to be usable. If Strangler had gotten Improved Grapple as a bonus feat prerequisite-free at level 1, this archetype would be a lot better. It is SUPPOSED to be Grapple-focused, but doesn't give you the fundamentals of what you need to be Grapple-focused.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
UnArcaneElection wrote:

With respect to where to put the Monk Guide, it looks like it really needs to be its own guide, with references to it from the Monk section of the archetype guide. In addition, Master of Many Styles may need its own sub-guide, and as more archetypes compatible with Unchained Monk come out (what are we at now, 2? -- and that doesn't count Qinggong, which is rolled into Unchained Monk), Unchained Monk will need its own guide.

The deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole I go, the more I see the need for separate things. It's GOING to be too big; I only analyzed about half of the available styles thus far, sticking to the "Expanded Core". Last year's Weapon Master Handbook and Dirty Tactics Toolkit added a lot to the Styles, and some of the race-based Styles are pretty awesome. Given that there's some stuff I'd like to add, I'm thinking it is a good idea to separate those out.

UnArcaneElection wrote:


JAMRenaissance wrote:

{. . .}

Wouldn't natural weapons be a really niche thing for a Monk? I haven't done that sort of analysis.

It depends upon who you are.. For races like Changelings and Tengu and a subset of Tieflings and Half-Orcs, this could be a big deal.

The question I keep finding myself asking, and this goes along with the Stunning Fist vs Touch of Serenity idea as well, is that I'm hesitant to put more situation-specific stuff in a general description. Do we want to change the rating for something if it only works with specific races, 3/4s of which aren't in the Core book?

What I'm thinking is to remove the archetype combination information and replace that with a "Recommended Usage" section of some sort. That way, we can say for everything that removes Flurry of Blows "Synergizes with natural weapons" or for Stunning Fist "Most effective against low-FORT opponents"?

Finally, in terms of the +2/-2 thing... I'd prefer someone else re-rate. :) With that in mind, would we say that the only archetypes that would really get "good" rating are Zen Archer, Tetori, and Sohei? Sensei and Master of Many Styles are good, but I question if they stand alone as well.


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Regarding monk archetypes, forcing a Normal distrubtions on the scores doesn't really sit right with me, a lot of the scores would boil down to "this archetype is so better than the base monk that on any other class would be a +2, but I'll rate it +1 for statistical reasons"


Entryhazard wrote:
Regarding monk archetypes, forcing a Normal distrubtions on the scores doesn't really sit right with me, a lot of the scores would boil down to "this archetype is so better than the base monk that on any other class would be a +2, but I'll rate it +1 for statistical reasons"

Folks are getting a bit caught on statistics here... I think the realization that picking one archetype precludes others and that there exist differences in power between archetypes makes it pretty easy to distinguish between +1 archetypes and +2 archetypes.

I think Barbarian is a good place to illustrate this as all archetypes that don't stack with invulnerable rager are automatically worse because of that.

Take for example the Armored Hulk. Heavy armor is pretty sweet for barbarians but as this doesn't stack with invulnerable rager there's rarely an incentive to pick it.


I'm kind of getting caught up on the idea that a +2 power archetype on the monk appears to put the archetype in the same stratosphere as the qinggong (which every monk should take always) or the Zen Archer (which is a massive power boost due to both the archetype having very good synergy with itself, and the inherent power of ranged combat and specifically bows in this game).

So like the Tetori is a very good archetype (in part because it has good synergy like the ZAM) but it doesn't strike me as belonging in the same tier as the Zen Archer because archery is vastly more powerful than grappling.

But maybe the solution here is to simply grade the vanilla monk as -1 in terms of power, and then consider whether an archetype moves the class up one, two, or three bins, else it should be avoided (the monk is an especially poor class with which to sacrifice power for flavor, since you're already the class that has vastly more of the latter than the former).


People said the same thing about the razmir priest sorcerer. That it was +3/+3, but it was reigned in at +2/+2. So people think it's a lot stronger than the other +2 options, but they are all ranked in at +2


PossibleCabbage wrote:

{. . .}

But maybe the solution here is to simply grade the vanilla monk as -1 in terms of power, and then consider whether an archetype moves the class up one, two, or three bins, else it should be avoided (the monk is an especially poor class with which to sacrifice power for flavor, since you're already the class that has vastly more of the latter than the former).

Interesting thought, although I think this might be really specific to the pre-Unchained Monk (too early to say whether it will turn out to be true for the Unchained Monk -- not enough compatible archetypes available). Just because a class is weak doesn't mean that most of the archetypes will be much better -- think Rogue, for instance, even though Unchained helped this class to a noticeable extent. Also think Fighter, for which the balance actually shifted, because the Weapon Master's Handbook considerably improved vanilla Fighter and the rare archetype that DOESN'T replace Weapon Training (and made a special case for Weapon Master to keep from obsoleting it completely); it is a reasonable hypothesis that the Armor Master's Handbook coming out later this year will do the same thing for Armor Training.

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Chess Pwn wrote:
People said the same thing about the razmir priest sorcerer. That it was +3/+3, but it was reigned in at +2/+2. So people think it's a lot stronger than the other +2 options, but they are all ranked in at +2

Reined in, as in pulled on the reins to stop something.

'reign' is to rule over and command, as in a king reigns over his kingdom, the reign of Charles VII, etc.

spellchecker doesn't catch homonyms ;)

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
People said the same thing about the razmir priest sorcerer. That it was +3/+3, but it was reigned in at +2/+2. So people think it's a lot stronger than the other +2 options, but they are all ranked in at +2

Reined in, as in pulled on the reins to stop something.

'reign' is to rule over and command, as in a king reigns over his kingdom, the reign of Charles VII, etc.

spellchecker doesn't catch homonyms ;)

==Aelryinth

You know, I thought it looked funny.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
People said the same thing about the razmir priest sorcerer. That it was +3/+3, but it was reigned in at +2/+2. So people think it's a lot stronger than the other +2 options, but they are all ranked in at +2

Whatever happened to that? Can we just make Zen Archer a +3/+3, and then realign the scale accordingly?

In that light, the archetypes that either are close to but not quite there in terms of overall ability to Zen Archer (Sohei and Tetori) or that either give fundamentally special abilities (Hungry Ghost, Drunken Master, Master of Many Styles, Sensei) become our new scale of +2's? In addition, everyone is judged standalone. So, Ki Mystic, one of my personal favorite archetypes to combo with others, becomes rated comparatively lowly as its own archetype. Qinggong, in this paradigm is not graded as an Archetype, but is instead approached as a Class Feature (which has already had really good Guides developed for it). While technically an archetype, it is functionally converting a number of Class Features into "Monk's Talents" a la the Rogue and as such should be approached in the same way we would Rogue Talents.

I would argue that, like Razmiran Priest, Zen Archer (and Mutation Warrior for the Fighter, and pre-Errated Scarred Witch Doctor) are so much more powerful and defining for their classes that they are functionally their own class. I'd daresay the gap between Razmiran Priest and Sorcerer is about the same as the gap between Zen Archer / Monk and Mutation Warrior / Fighter. The only difference is that a Sorcerer is a much more powerful base than a Monk or Fighter.

Also in this paradigm, two subguides become created - one to the Master of Many Styles, and one for Hybrid Archetypes. I don't know if the Hybrid Archetypes guide should be specific to or limited to Monk's; without doing research, couldn't both the Fighter and Rogue be pretty well served by Hybrid Archetyping?

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JAMRenaissance wrote:


Whatever happened to that? Can we just make Zen Archer a +3/+3, and then realign the scale accordingly?

Because if we did, some people would argue that the Razmiran Priest is really +4/+4, and the scale should be realigned on that instead.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Kurald Galain wrote:
JAMRenaissance wrote:


Whatever happened to that? Can we just make Zen Archer a +3/+3, and then realign the scale accordingly?
Because if we did, some people would argue that the Razmiran Priest is really +4/+4, and the scale should be realigned on that instead.

And?

The question would be whether or not there is a consistent scale we can use that would justify putting it with others. This consistent rule is "An increase in scope that makes it functionally its own class". Again, is a Razmiran Priest far above a Zen Archer? Yes. Is the gap between Razmiran Priest and Sorcerer the same size as the gap between Zen Archer and Monk? Yes.

That sort of argument seems to be less about creating a consistent tool to help people and more about ensuring that one's personal sacred cows are properly worshiped.

I personally DON'T think ZA, or RP, needs it's own category. I also think that half of the Monk Archetypes deserve a +2 rating of some sort because half of them are significantly better than the core Monk. My proposal is NOT what I personally think we should do, but is an attempt to bridge the varying viewpoints.

We can't please everyone, though...


I wonder if it would be too much work to go back and subdivide each of the bins with some indication for "this is strong in tier" or "this is weak in tier".

Like "Power 2+" for "this is extremely powerful" and "Power 2-" for "this is powerful enough to be a power 2 option, but is not necessarily as strong as others."

Like guides that color code things often use two colors to indicate things that are borderline.

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Zen Archer is a really good archer archetype that happens to suck at the Monk's schtick of Unarmed Combat. It gets the power bonus because it IS more powerful then a standard monk. From versatility...I'm not really seeing much add-on other then the fact it can now use a bow. You're actually basically RESTRICTED to using a bow with this archetype...the trade-off is specialization, not versatility, in comparison.

So, no, a +3/+3 is not warranted. You could make the argument it's a +2/+0 archetype. Versatility is not a strength of the Zen Archer.
-------------------------------------------

The Razmiran Sorceror gets its huge power boost after level 9. A large fraction of games simply do not last that long. While its high end potential is pretty good, it also takes a MASSIVE amount of gold to make that realistic. Sure, you get a lot of versatility grabbing cleric scrolls to blow your list wide open. But getting them at YOUR CASTER LEVEL takes a LOT of money. Tons of money. Much more then the spellbook costs that are often ignored by Prepared Casters.

Furthermore, since it uses a higher spell slot then the spell he's emulating, he IS denied access to level 9 cleric spells. He also has to make what can be a difficult UMD check or he burns out the scroll and has to spend more cash to replace it. THis isn't a whole lot different then buying Pages of Spell Knowledge (The UMD check for a level 8 spell is a minimum 35, and you can't take 10 on it.)

So, no, it doesn't deserve a +3, either, considering most people will never reach that true uber power level. Having access to a few lower level clerical spells at a level where you are likely to burn out the scroll anyways isn't enough to justify a +3.

And really, if you were going to give it a +3, it would almost be a 0/+3, since the whole shtick is a broadening of the spell list, not in making his magic more powerful. Any sorceror taking Prepared Casting as the feat, or using a Ring of Spell Knowledge, can actually duplicate most of the effects of this archetype by simply broadening their spell list as well. They may not have access to the divine list, but in the end, does it matter much?

==Aelryinth


Yes....a Razmiran Sorceror because it is a sorceror would not be capable of using a 5th level cleric scroll until 12th level and would pay 1500 gp (and a 6th level spell slot)to use it as his class level (not masses but worth thinking about!)


There are a couple things missing from that analysis

1. When a Razmiran priest activates a scroll or wand of a divine spell, the charge on that item isn't lost. Razmiran priests aren't gaining the power to pay money for mediocre one-shot effects, they're basically adding spells to an infinite spellbook.

2. You don't have to pull from the Cleric/Oracle spell list. You can also pull from the Inquisitor or Paladin or any other divine spell lists, letting you get items at spell level discounts. For example, holy sword is a 4th level Paladin spell and a 7th level Cleric spell.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I wonder if it would be too much work to go back and subdivide each of the bins with some indication for "this is strong in tier" or "this is weak in tier".

Like "Power 2+" for "this is extremely powerful" and "Power 2-" for "this is powerful enough to be a power 2 option, but is not necessarily as strong as others."

Like guides that color code things often use two colors to indicate things that are borderline.

The 5-level system (-2, -1, 0, +1, +2) works well enough. I don't think we need a more nuanced gradient, because we are attempting to summarize, not completely analyze. For your specific proposal, we'd end up with things like Power "+2-", and "Power -2+", which are both confusing rankings.

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Squirrel_Dude wrote:

There are a couple things missing from that analysis

1. When a Razmiran priest activates a scroll or wand of a divine spell, the charge on that item isn't lost. Razmiran priests aren't gaining the power to pay money for mediocre one-shot effects, they're basically adding spells to an infinite spellbook.

2. You don't have to pull from the Cleric/Oracle spell list. You can also pull from the Inquisitor or Paladin or any other divine spell lists, letting you get items at spell level discounts. For example, holy sword is a 4th level Paladin spell and a 7th level Cleric spell.

Abuse of leveraging spell lists from partial casters is a seperate issue. I personally, as a balance issue, wouldn't let them do it. But that's a house issue. I'd MAKE them pull from a full caster list.

Secondly, they don't lose the charge IF THEY MAKE THE UMD CHECK...which unless they invest insanely into it, is not guaranteed. It's quite possible for them to lose the UMD check, expend the spell slot, AND burn the scroll.

And like I noted, there's a feat and a Ring which do much of what this class ability does, which is expand the spell list. It's nice...but a huge game changer re: other Sorcs? Only if you don't allow magic items.

==Aelryinth


Squirrel_Dude wrote:

There are a couple things missing from that analysis

1. When a Razmiran priest activates a scroll or wand of a divine spell, the charge on that item isn't lost. Razmiran priests aren't gaining the power to pay money for mediocre one-shot effects, they're basically adding spells to an infinite spellbook.

2. You don't have to pull from the Cleric/Oracle spell list. You can also pull from the Inquisitor or Paladin or any other divine spell lists, letting you get items at spell level discounts. For example, holy sword is a 4th level Paladin spell and a 7th level Cleric spell.

We know.... we're not denying its excellent!

Although in terms of that any divine class who is Samsaran can pull off something v.similar and with far less cost and hassle.


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Aelryinth wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:

There are a couple things missing from that analysis

1. When a Razmiran priest activates a scroll or wand of a divine spell, the charge on that item isn't lost. Razmiran priests aren't gaining the power to pay money for mediocre one-shot effects, they're basically adding spells to an infinite spellbook.

2. You don't have to pull from the Cleric/Oracle spell list. You can also pull from the Inquisitor or Paladin or any other divine spell lists, letting you get items at spell level discounts. For example, holy sword is a 4th level Paladin spell and a 7th level Cleric spell.

Abuse of leveraging spell lists from partial casters is a seperate issue. I personally, as a balance issue, wouldn't let them do it. But that's a house issue. I'd MAKE them pull from a full caster list.

Secondly, they don't lose the charge IF THEY MAKE THE UMD CHECK...which unless they invest insanely into it, is not guaranteed. It's quite possible for them to lose the UMD check, expend the spell slot, AND burn the scroll.

And like I noted, there's a feat and a Ring which do much of what this class ability does, which is expand the spell list. It's nice...but a huge game changer re: other Sorcs? Only if you don't allow magic items.

==Aelryinth

Reading the ability you are discussing is always advised:

At 9th level, the false priest can use his own magic to power spell completion and spell trigger items that use divine spells. He expends a sorcerer spell slot that is at least 1 level higher than the level of the spell he’s trying to activate, then makes a Use Magic Device check. If he succeeds, the item’s spell occurs and the item or charge is not expended. If he fails, nothing happens. Whether he succeeds or fail, his spell slot is expended.

Keep in mind, base Sorcerers are CHA focused and Razmiran Priest gives 1/2 level bonus to UMD checks. Now if you get gungho and try exploiting 20th CL spells at level 9... ya, your are asking for trouble. If you are using a 10th caster level Paladin Scroll of Greater Angelic Aspect at 10th level, you have a very very high chance of succeeding with minimal investment - 10 ranks + 3 Class Skill + 5 False Piety + 8 CHA = +26 to your UMD. So a 4 or better. A one-time investment in Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) ensures you always succeed (except on a 1, because UMD).

@Silver Surfer: Comparing any divine class with Samsaran is fundamentally misunderstanding the power of the Razmiran Priest. It is not just 6 spells. It's many many more. It's not just early spells. It's early spells from multiple lists. It's not just multiple off list spells (divine instead of arcane), it's free uses of high cost material component spells. Samsaran isn't even the palest of shadow next to Razmiran Priest.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Aaaaaaaand... exhibit A on why I don't want to re-rate the Monk and am asking someone else to do so: Very clearly we have CRAZY different views.

Am I off in thinking that we are advocating rating these archetypes by their absolute power/versatility level and not the comparative power/versatility as a function of the base class? If it is the former, then wouldn't the weakest Wizard archetype have to be rated higher than the strongest Monk archetype, as the weakest Wizard is still likely to be more powerful than the strongest Monk?

That's the reasoning why the paradigm I'm using is a function of the comparative power to the base class, not the overall power.


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Aelryinth wrote:

...

Secondly, they don't lose the charge IF THEY MAKE THE UMD CHECK...which unless they invest insanely into it, is not guaranteed.
...

Ah, no. That's just flat out not true unless the caster is trying to use CLs above their own caster level. It doesn't require "insane" investment to hit the UMD DCs for scroll CL=caster level.

Lets look at what those numbers should actually be from level 9 onwards, assuming full ranks in UMD. A Razmiran sorcerer is a Cha based caster with UMD as a class skill and a scaling bonus. By level 9 a Circlet of Persuasion isn't unreasonable. After all that, this is what we are looking at:

+3 from Class Skill
+3 from Circlet
+1 because a d20 always rolls at least a 1
Scaling bonus from Razmiran Archetype
Scaling bonus from Cha
Scaling bonus from Ranks

9th (22 Cha):26 (CL6, 3rd level spells)
10th(24 Cha):29 (CL9, 5th level spells)
11th(24 Cha):30 (CL10, 5th level spells)
12th(25 Cha):32 (CL12, 6th level spells)
13th(27 Cha):34 (CL14, 7th level spells)
14th(27 Cha):36 (CL16, 8th level spells)
15th(27 Cha):37 (CL17, 9th level spells)

Note that from level 11th onwards you don't even need the Circlet of Persuasion to use the highest level of minimum CL scrolls.

If you go dumpster diving for bonuses, you can hit numbers substantially above those. Tap Inner Beauty and Heroism give you +5 to the check, for example.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Regardless, just because some archetype is at the top of our scale doesn't mean we need a new scale.

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