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I think we should get a consensus on what Versatility means between
1)How many differents build you can make with that archetype
2)How many different thing you can do with the average build using the archetype
to make an example between classes, Oracle is more versatile than the Cleric in the (1) sense, but is much less versatile in the (2) sense
I'd say it's a bit of both. As an example, let's just take a look at what's already been ranked as being +2 versatility:
Clone Master Alchemist
- Adds kick-ass off-list spells to his extract list
Preservationist Alchemist
- Adds kick-ass off-list spells to his extract list
Invulnerable Rager Barbarian
- I'm not sure where that contributor was coming from here. I'd personally rank it at +2 power / 0 versatility.
Blood Conduit Bloodrager (dips only)
- Gains a bonus feat that skips prerequisites.
Primalist Bloodrager
- Access to barbarian rage powers, swapping out unwanted bloodline powers on a case-by-case basis
Urban Bloodrager
- Gain spells from other class lists, less friendly-fire prone spells, more flexible bloodrage
Free-Style Fighter
- Martial flexibility, multiple active stance feats active at once
Lore Warden Fighter
- More skill points, bonus feat that bypasses onerous prerequisites, flat bonus to all combat maneuvers
Martial Master Fighter
- Gain access to feats you don't have several times per day
Tactician Fighter (dips only)
- Expanded bonus feat list and more skill points; seems a bit shallow for +2 versatility, in my view
Bladebound Magus
- Intelligent weapon with virtually no drawbacks for taking the archetype
Eldritch Archer Magus
- It's a working ranged Magus archetype that basically comes with no strings attached.
Hexcrafter Magus
- Access to the witch hex list with no real drawbacks
Spirit Ranger
- Spontaneous access to his entire class spell list a few times per day, access to useful SLA's
Razmiran Priest
- Access to every divine spell list in the game, ability to bypass material components costs, no real tradeoffs... yeah, we've talked this one to death...
Blood Summoner
- Planar Binding as an SLA and an ability to grant himself a big bonus to his charisma check in the subsequent binding
Exploiter Wizard
- Access to the Arcanist's primary class features
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Overall, I'd say we've been pretty consistent so far, and most of these archetypes expand both on what you can do with your build and what you can do with any individual character.
^Also, if you invest in Metamagic early, you can even get some added benefit out of using those higher level slots for lower level spells (that is more efficient than just casting the lower level spells unmodified, although sometimes you might have to do that anyway for action economy reasons). And not only Humans, but also Half-Humans and Gillmen (and in a more restricted form Drow and Goblins) can use their Favored Class Bonus to alleviate the shortage of spells known, although not at the highest level of spells you can cast (you still need Metamagic for that).
Sometimes when I'm not angry enough with life I read this document and start fuming.
OP, what would you say about me adding a small comment after each rating, simplifying it for the reader?
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I guess I just didn't realize the guidelines were "using every possible method and option in the game, I can make this option par for power with base options".
As a dip, it's more than fine. It's excellent, even advisable for specific builds. That said, you limit yourself to early metamagic, specific races, and specific spells (which entail specific traits). Sure, you can make an amazing fireball blaster with your half-orc, but if it takes that much specialization are you really gaining power? Base sorc can hit save-or-suck DCs and save-or-die DCs that are just as specialist without a dip.
+1 is a really stretch for being warranted, imo.
All that said, one of the most spot-on assessments is the Bladebound archetype. I feel like no one realizes how amazing it is, and it's good to see it recognized.
On the subject of Arcanist, I'm reading over the Twilight Sage and I'd like some opinions on whether this is an overly-technical loophole or a legitimate combo.
The Twilight Sage archetype requires the Arcanist to prepare one necromancy spell at each spell level per day, which is pretty restrictive. This says nothing about keeping it prepared. So the Quick Study exploit could be used to replace the prepared necromancy spells if they're unwanted. This is probably only a big deal at your two highest levels, so it doesn't incur too much of a point cost. Given that the archetype's advantage is giving you more reservoir points to work with, it looks like a workable way to get around one of its bigger shortcomings. Thoughts?
I'm leaning towards avr's -1 versatility ranking if the above doesn't work, and 0 if the above combo does work.
Sure, you can make an amazing fireball blaster with your half-orc, but if it takes that much specialization are you really gaining power? Base sorc can hit save-or-suck DCs and save-or-die DCs that are just as specialist without a dip.
+1 is a really stretch for being warranted, imo.
I feel like you're just reiterating all the reasons why it gets -2 versatility. It's a crippling tradeoff, no one is arguing that, but it's a tradeoff in terms of what the Sorcerer is capable of doing and not the efficacy of what he does do, hence why the negative rating is on the versatility side and doesn't touch the power side.
Blade Adept
A lot of weighing back and forth "on the other hand" considerations. Wouldn't put it negative on power with all its offering; I don't think a prospective EK could get enough out of two Exploits to compete with a free intelligent weapon.
Really? For one thing assuming you're going EK it's 3 exploits minimum. Also it's not an ideal weapon, being light or one-handed and rather less impressive than the best you could buy, and not including useful properties for a gish like spell storing. For another: Lepidstadt Shifter/Altered Shifting, Arcane Weapon, Dimensional Slide, Familiar, Potent Magic, Bloodline Development (Orc, Serpentine, Nanite, Verdant, Ghoul, Draconic, with a conductive weapon several others), School Understanding (Divination, Transmutation, Evocation/Admixture).
Blood Arcanist
I think you're being way too harsh here. While it's a bit of a wait for 5th level to get extra exploits, you're getting a lot of great stuff up front. Past that point, I just can't see ranking this archetype negatively; you can start buying back your exploits with feats. At very minimum, this is a less expensive and more powerful version of VMC Sorcerer or the Eldritch Heritage feat line, both of which are pretty decent options in their own rights.
Actually, I do like it; I rated it power +1 too. I might grant that it isn't necessarily less versatile than a standard arcanist, with the right bloodline (so vers. 0), but I'd say most ways you use this make the character less versatile. I think the disagreement here comes down to whether you see versatility as being all the possible ways you could build a character, or whether it's how versatile any specific character might be. For me it's the latter.
School Savant
Diviner's tricked out initiative and Teleportation Conjurer's shift would be the biggest counter-examples that scale with level, and most of the higher-level abilities are worth at least an exploit on their own.
Right with the diviner, though arcanists actually have their own superior teleportation exploit. Still, +1/+1 doesn't seem out of line to me.
White Mage
Eh, I don't think it's worth a negative. A bit overpriced at two exploits, but given how rare healing abilities are on arcane spellcasters it's certainly a neat angle. At least it doesn't force that utterly atrocious greater exploit down your throat...
Overpriced means you lose versatility by losing real options. It might not be enough of a loss to be worth -1, true.
Blade Adept
Really? For one thing assuming you're going EK it's 3 exploits minimum. Also it's not an ideal weapon, being light or one-handed and rather less impressive than the best you could buy, and not including useful properties for a gish like spell storing. For another: Lepidstadt Shifter/Altered Shifting, Arcane Weapon, Dimensional Slide, Familiar, Potent Magic, Bloodline Development (Orc, Serpentine, Nanite, Verdant, Ghoul, Draconic, with a conductive weapon several others), School Understanding (Divination, Transmutation, Evocation/Admixture).
Yes, you could buy better than the Black Blade, but the blade doesn't cost you anything so you're free to spend that cash on other gear. If the weapon type issue really bugs you, then go get a one-time application of polymorph any object for 1200 GP. That does eat into the WBL advantage it's giving you at lower levels, though.
And to be clear, you have definitely convinced me to drop my rating substantially, to a 0/0. I just don't think it's worth a negative.
Blood Arcanist
Actually, I do like it; I rated it power +1 too. I might grant that it isn't necessarily less versatile than a standard arcanist, with the right bloodline (so vers. 0), but I'd say most ways you use this make the character less versatile. I think the disagreement here comes down to whether you see versatility as being all the possible ways you could build a character, or whether it's how versatile any specific character might be. For me it's the latter.
I see it as a combination of the two. You have convinced me it's not worth a +2. So the argument now is between +1 and 0 versatility, so we're definitely much closer.
School Savant
Right with the diviner, though arcanists actually have their own superior teleportation exploit. Still, +1/+1 doesn't seem out of line to me.
I can definitely agree with +1/+1 on this one.
White Mage
Overpriced means you lose versatility by losing real options. It might not be enough of a loss to be worth -1, true.
I think we're roughly on the same page for this one, then.
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This is my revised Arcanist rankings based on feedback:
Blade Adept
Power 0
Versatility 0
This archetype is screams to be used with the Eldritch Knight prestige class. While the black blade is a powerful tool, the archetype suffers several practicality issues. It gives up many exploits and struggles to pick up everything it wants, the weapon-type restrictions on the black blade are unfavorable for a non-magus, and until it gets headway on its prestige class the arcanist struggles with its 1/2 BAB. So while this archetype provides many benefits, it also has many pitfalls.
Blood Arcanist
Power +1
Versatility +1
You trade off a bunch of exploits for access to a Sorcerer bloodline. Provided you pick a good bloodline, this is decisively a positive trade. The biggest downside of this archetype is the large number of exploits paid, and the fact that you're locked out of the extra exploit feat until the 5th level which makes buying them back difficult.
Brown-Fur Transmuter
Power 0
Versatility +1
Essentially you trade a couple of exploits to gain access to improved options for buffing the rest of your party. There are very few options for getting personal spells on to non-spellcasters, and the selection from the polymorph school is pretty good. The specific nature of the spells that benefit means this archetype's usefulness is dependant on party makeup, and the biggest downside of all is that you're stuck being the "furry" at the arcane spellcaster conventions.
Eldritch Font
Power -1
Versatility -2
Losing out on the number of spells you can prepare greatly slows your progression and flexibility. To make matters worse, you trade off a large number of exploits for mutually-exclusive abilities. No matter what you do, you can only use your Eldritch Surge twice per day, so having many different ways to use it isn't as nice as it sounds on paper.
Elemental Master
Power 0
Versatility -1
The number of spells with elemental descriptors is actually a rather small list, so there are only a small number of opposition spells to be mindful but in the same breath there are very few options for your specialist spell type. Overall, the trade is fairly tepid either way, and the large number of exploits sacrificed to do it makes it a negative trade overall.
Harrowed Society Student (credit avr)
Power 0
Versatility +1
The exploit replacements are so-so but the replacement for consume spells is OK, and then you get a few spells off other lists without paying a further cost. Better, you get to pick the spells rather than be forced to a specific list.
Occultist
Power +1
Versatility +2
Trading off a couple of exploits for access to one of the best class features in the game, this archetype is an absolute no-brainer for anyone who wants to use Summon Monster spells extensively. The longer duration and shorter casting time makes it a lot more practical, and all without requiring you to even prepare the spell.
School Savant
Power +1
Versatility +1
Gain all the school powers of a Wizard, including the ability to prepare an extra spell every day. While you do need to take opposition schools, the extremely narrow number of spells an arcanist can prepare each day makes it even easier to limit yourself to 6 schools.
Spell Specialist
Power 0
Versatility -1
At the cost of many exploits and permanently locking up a large segment of your daily spell preparation loadout you too can gain a +1 boost to the DC's of your favorite spells. While this trade isn't terrible on its own, paying four exploits and getting some nearly-useless abilities on the side makes it a questionable archetype.
Twilight Sage
Power +1
Versatility 0
With no limitation on its usage per day, the Twilight Sage can use his Consume Life to - at least in theory - keep his arcane reservoir topped up at all times. In practice, getting living enemies of the appropriate HD range to negative hit points without killing them is easier said than done, and the loss of the more practical consume spells ability means you'll struggle if you can't pull it off. The large number of exploits you give up for abilities of questionable value is another big sticking point, but requiring you to fill your daily loadout with necromancy spells is very onerous. If you don't have a good way to work around the necromancy limitation, its versatility rank suffers.
Unlettered Arcanist
Power -1
Versatility -2
Trade off a spellbook for the vastly inferior witch familiar rules, resulting in higher costs to learn spells and a critical vulnerability. Trade off the broad sorcerer/wizard spell list for the much more narrow witch spell list, but without patron spells to supplement it. This archetype is literally nothing but downsides with no redeeming qualities.
White Mage
Power 0
Versatility 0
This archetype does exactly what you might expect, giving your arcanist access to a reliable form of healing. This is particularly nice for role compression on a low-level party, but it does not gain access to the Heal spell and as a result falls behind at higher levels. Past the 9th level it is completely outclassed by the Occultist archetype, which can simply summon a monster with a healing spell-like ability.
I reviewed the inquisitor Archetypes and I'd be very happy for people's feedback.
Cold Iron Warden
Power: -1
Versatility: -1
Dip*
You trade out a number of abilities for cool abilities which aid against outsiders. What really kills this archetype for me is the reduction in base Bane dice as this is the inquisitor’s signature combat ability. This archetype does give you a channel ability which is a prerequisite for a number of feats such as guided hand and thus opens up some interesting build options.
Exorcist
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
The trades offered here aren’t great but the ability to inflict the Dazed condition on targets of your judgement is pretty strong so I can definitely see this being useful. Being immune to mind control at level 17 also seems nice.
Green Faith Marshall
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
I like this archetype as Animal and Terrain Domains open up some nice options, such as a familiar, a channel pool or Sneak Attack, you also get to add some nice spells to your spell list with some of the domains. Personally I also prefer the once per week commune with nature to always on Discern Lies but that one is debatable. Wild Step seems like a slight downgrade to Stalwart but also opens up heavy armor for this archetype.
Heretic
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
Dip*
You aren’t trading out a lot for some nice stealth and subterfuge related abilities here. If you manage to acquire a few Sneak Attack Dice the Judgement of Escape can be quite powerful.
Iconoclast
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
This archetype trades out a number of the Inquisitor’s more fluffy abilities for anti-magic abilities. Trading detect alignment for detect magic is weak sauce but the once per day dispel effect seems nicer than discern lies. The other trades seem fair.
Infiltrator
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
You don’t lose much here so this isn’t a terrible archetype but it seems like it’s very much focused on evil characters who practice subterfuge so it’s more of an NPC archetype.
Monster Tactician
Power: +2
Versatility: +1
You trade out Judgement for a 3+WIS times per day scaling summon monster ability with an extra long duration and the ability to hand out teamwork feats of your choosing to summons from level 5 onwards. Smells like power creep to me and banning this archetype for PFS play was prolly justified. If it’s available to you it is a strong option but also switches up the way you play the class as it favors higher wisdom scores.
Preacher
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
Solo Tactics and teamwork feats have become much better over the last few years due to the addition of new and powerful teamwork feats. This archetype trades them out for a powerful reroll ability with limited uses per day. This used to be good for Archers but they have received strong teamwork option over the last few years so this Archetype is really only for the very unimaginative.
Reaper of Secrets
Power: -2
Versatility: 0
While I like the flavor I’m 99% positive that Mind-Game Tactics is strictly inferior to Solo Tactics.
Relic Hunter
Power: -2
Versatility: -1
This is a tough archetype to evaluate as it trades out pretty much all your class abilities and turns you into a Divine Occultist. I’ve tried to work with this and came to the conclusion that it sucks pretty hard if you want to build a melee Inquisitor. Now with all the nifty evocation implements there might be some totally different things you can pull off with this archetype but the fact that it infringes so heavily on your selection of spells makes it really hard to work with. Also the action economy is super shitty compared to a regular Inquisitor.
Sacred Huntsmaster
Power: +2
Versatility: +1
Dip: *
So you are trading out judgement for a full Hunter Animal Companion and the Animal Focus ability. Em yeah sure…this is the Inquisitor's stand out Archetype and in my mind strictly superior to the base inquisitor (and the Hunter). The only reason not to take this is a dislike for furry friends or a preference for…
Sanctified Slayer
Power +1
Versatility: +1
Em so clearly the ACG designers were of the opinion that the Inquisitor is a pretty underpowered class or how else could they have come up with two such unbalanced archetypes. So again all you are trading out is Judgement and in return you get Studied Target, a fairly slow Sneak Attack progression and 4 Slayer Talents. Sure… fair deal. The only issue with this archetype is that Sacred Huntsmaster is even stronger.
Sin Eater
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
So you trade your Domain for an effect that can be easily replaced by a wand of CLW that’s a rough blow. The ability to speak with dead at level 6 is nice but this is still a pretty bad archetype.
Spellbreaker
Power: -2
Versatility: 0
Loosing Solo Tactics and teamwork feats for minor bonuses on saves versus spell DCs seems weak when you consider that Solo Tactics with Shake it Off or Lastwall Phalanx will likely do you more good than the benefits offered here.
Suit Seeker
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
This is another one of those archetypes where you aren’t loosing much and not gaining all too much in return. I like the skill swaps and the choices of Domains and judgements also seem okay so this archetype might work well for certain concepts.
Vampire Hunter
Power: -2
Versatility: 0
This makes you da Vampire Slayer. If you don’t want to make hunting Vampires your full time job avoid this archetype like Vampires do my mom’s kitchen. The removal of the Bane ability really kills this archetype.
Witch Hunter
Power: +1
Versatility: -1
This archetype trades out most of your fluffy abilities for anti-spellcaster abilities and abilities that grant you some nice bonuses to saving throws. I like this trade.
Can I again restate my total loathing for this rating system?
"Power" is absolutely arbitrary and campaign dependent.
What should be judged is mechanical soundness.
The only ratings there should be are:
- Poorly designed
- Thematic
- Specialized
- Transformative
Period. Anything else is guessology.
Kensai? Transformative.
Sanctified Slayer? Specialized.
Combat Healer's Squire? Thematic.
Ragechemist? Poorly designed.
Secret Wizard has a point. An archetype that is -1/-1 but +2/0 against Evil outsiders is basically specialized and very powerful in its niche.
Such specialization should have a notification of its own.
==Aelryinth
Green Faith Marshall
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
I like this archetype as Animal and Terrain Domains open up some nice options, such as a familiar, a channel pool or Sneak Attack, you also get to add some nice spells to your spell list with some of the domains. Personally I also prefer the once per week commune with nature to always on Discern Lies but that one is debatable. Wild Step seems like a slight downgrade to Stalwart but also opens up heavy armor for this archetype.
Incorrect, normal Inquisitors can already choose Animal and Terrain Domains. Here the whole point is that some class features are nerfed in exchange of adding the domain spells to your spells.
Otherwise decent list, but Exarch (Dwarf), Kinslayer (Dhampir) and Immolator (Ifrit) racial archetypes are missing, and the Suit Seeker from the Harrow Handbook
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Can I again restate my total loathing for this rating system?
"Power" is absolutely arbitrary and campaign dependent.
What should be judged is mechanical soundness.
The only ratings there should be are:
- Poorly designed
- Thematic
- Specialized
- TransformativePeriod. Anything else is guessology.
Kensai? Transformative.
Sanctified Slayer? Specialized.
Combat Healer's Squire? Thematic.
Ragechemist? Poorly designed.
Your opinion had been noted. You're free now to stay away from this thing you loath while those who like this continue to do it
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Secret Wizard has a point. An archetype that is -1/-1 but +2/0 against Evil outsiders is basically specialized and very powerful in its niche.
Such specialization should have a notification of its own.
Which is why all ratings come with a short explanatory text to explain rare corner cases like this.
Because for the common case, about 95% of all archetypes, the -2 to +2 rating works very well.
I'd go about 80%, myself, but that 20% can be VERY skewed.
==Aelryinth
Incorrect, normal Inquisitors can already choose Animal and Terrain Domains. Here the whole point is that some class features are nerfed in exchange of adding the domain spells to your spells.
Otherwise decent list, but Exarch (Dwarf), Kinslayer (Dhampir) and Immolator (Ifrit) racial archetypes are missing, and the Suit Seeker from the Harrow Handbook
By RAW and in PFS inquisitors are not allowed to pick Animal and Terrain Domains. The wording is something like
"other Nature themed Divine Classes may also pick these Domains."
Suit Seeker is included. I'll add the racial archetypes later.
Doesn't Unlettered Arcanist get a familiar for free? That's a bit of redeeming value then, given how nice familiars can get these days with their own archetypes.
Problem is: You get a free Familiar that you have to keep as safe as you would keep your Spellbook (and is harder to back up than a spellbook), which really curtails how much use you get out of it. Better to take some other archetype and use the Familiar Exploit.
But yeah, having to use the Witch list instead of the Wizard is a pretty bad deal.
The Witch spell list isn't bad for what it was originally meant for, and gives you a decent number of options that the Sorcerer/Wizard list just doesn't get, but the problem is that you don't get Patron Spells to flesh it out or Hexes to complement it. If they had made Unlettered Arcanist a pseudo-archetype of Witch, this would be a LOT better.
Secret Wizard has a point. An archetype that is -1/-1 but +2/0 against Evil outsiders is basically specialized and very powerful in its niche.
Such specialization should have a notification of its own.
Which is why all ratings come with a short explanatory text to explain rare corner cases like this.
Because for the common case, about 95% of all archetypes, the -2 to +2 rating works very well.
My thoughts as well (although maybe not 95% of the archetypes being uniform, but still most of them). Hence a few archetypes that I put ranges on instead of single ratings in stuff I posted above, plus separate Dip and Full ratings for archetypes that change something in the first 2 levels.
By the way, just noticed that Gun Tank Gunslinger gets Armor Training (as the Fighter class feature, replacing Gunslinger Bonus Feats) up to 5, so when the Armor Master's Handbook comes out, give this archetype another look.
Thanks so far for all everyone's work. I'm enjoying reading this just to get more familiarized with Archetypes that I haven't personally used.
And yes, hidden wizard, you manifestly can voice your disapproval of this rating style. You have done so once before on this very page of the discussion, and no one shouted you down or anything.
I appreciate the riffs on the name though.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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For our consideration:
Rather than marking an archetype with four consecutive numbers (dip vers, dip pow, full vers, full pow), I think it would be clearer to have a separate "dipping" section. After all, players looking for a dip have rather different requirements than players looking for a good archetype for the full class. So organizing it like that would make the guide easier to read.
For our consideration:
Rather than marking an archetype with four consecutive numbers (dip vers, dip pow, full vers, full pow), I think it would be clearer to have a separate "dipping" section. After all, players looking for a dip have rather different requirements than players looking for a good archetype for the full class. So organizing it like that would make the guide easier to read.
I think we should start by cleaning up all the "dip: n/a" ratings, or cases where the dip is rated the same as the full class. It's just clutter, and there's no need to list it unless a dip is relevant to the archetype.
Secondly, we probably want to consider this on a class-by-class basis. For instance, crossblooded is the only Sorcerer archetype that even mentions dipping. Fighter, on the other hand, is an extremely dip-friendly class so any archetype that affects level 1-3 class features is going to have dip considerations. It would make sense to treat these two classes differently in regards to how they display dipping information.
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In response to Undead Lord possibly being a bad archetype: I have to agree the loss of a domain sucks but the ability to basically become a healing power house seems badass.
At mid to high levels you can not only channel to hurt living for lots, but with the Death's Kiss ability (Undead Subdomain) + the Unlife Healer ability you can plus 50% heals for both live and undead and at 16th you can max plus 50% heal both your party and your undead army.
Also I think you have to get creative with the corpse companion.
I mean you can't deny the cool factor of a Flaming Skeleton T-Rex companion.
It may not be the best archetype in an optimization stance but the healing boost and flavor are top notch.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Here goes the Hunter...
Blight Scout: pow +0, vrs +0; the abilities you gain are weak and situational, but you don't lose anything particularly great either.
Divine Hunter: pow +1, vrs +2; given the diverse abilities of domains and their spell lists, there are a lot of tricks you can pull with this. Adding the celestial template to your animal is also a nice touch. You do lose the shared teamwork feats, but you can still take these with your (and your animal's) regular feats.
Feral Hunter: pow -1, vrs -1; this archetype basically focuses you on summon spells, adding your teamwork feats to the creatures summoned. However, this begs the question why you don't simply play a druid, who gets all the summon spells several levels earlier, and has several ways to boost them on his own.
Packmaster: pow -1, vrs +0; instead of one strong animal companion, you'll get two weaker ones. That's really not such a good trade, and several of your class abilities will work only on one of the animals anyway. It's banned in PFS primarily because it slows down gameplay.
Primal Companion Hunter: pow +1, vrs +1; as most animal focus abilities are pretty weak (and don't stack with e.g. a belt of strength), switching them for eidolon evolutions is an improvement. Although the pool is limited, there are some nice tricks to be done here, in particular extra attack. I'm not sure why this is banned in PFS, though.
Scarab Stalker: pow -1, vrs 0; it's an interesting alternative set of animal abilities, but overall weaker than the standard set. Still, it's flavorful and you don't lose a lot by taking it.
Verminous Hunter: pow -1, vrs 0; the animal abilities here are comparable to your default set, with fast healing as a good new option. However, this archetype locks you into a vermin companion, which is frankly a weak choice.
Not sure if this has already been posted but...
Summoner Synthesist.
You can basically throw away your physical scores and still have decent ones, as well as customize your character through your eidolon. Including getting Perfect flight at level 5.
The Summoner synth has been rated.
basically, you give up spellcasting versatility to stomp all over the melees' niche and get some other abilities.
It shifted the focus of the class, and it ANNOYED other classes. It wasn't really 'more powerful' then the base class, and certainly not being able to summon cause you had to wear your Eidolon 24/7 cut down on your versatility, and your Eidolon couldn't use its skills while being worn, either.
Didn't it come out at 0/0 vs the base?
==Aelryinth
But the Unlettered Arcanist is weaker because of the spell list, not the exploits. Regular Arcanists can get familiars as an exploit, and these familiars are not also their spellbooks, so you don't have to worry as much about familiar death. If a Witch was able to switch their spell list for the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list at the cost of a hex, do you think they'd do it?
Aside from the issue of a dip (as Markov Spiked Chain posted), in most cases the answer would be yes, but in cases where the Witch was the closest thing the party had to a 9/9 divine caster (especially if no other 9/9 spellcaster or Summoner available, and even more especially if not even a 6/9 divine caster available), the answer would be no. Some of the parts of the Witch spell list that are not covered by the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list are really important to have.
Problem with the Unlettered Arcanist is that it gets NO Hexes (and VMC Witch is just bad, so you can't even use that to compensate).
In response to Undead Lord possibly being a bad archetype: I have to agree the loss of a domain sucks but the ability to basically become a healing power house seems badass.
This is pretty much the only thing going for the archetype. It's a redeeming feature, to be sure, but not nearly enough to offset the huge costs and utter impracticality of all the other benefits offered by the archetype.
In my opinion, the best part of minion-mancy is how easy it is to fit on a build. The only real cost is the monetary cost. Spontaneous casters have to pick up a few spells known, and Clerics and Oracles will want to sink a feat/mystery to get access to command undead, but that's it. It's ludicrously easy to just add "necromancer with undead minions" onto a mid-level caster's resume. That's the primary reason why I feel Undead Lord is a bad archetype; it's already really easy to be a great necromancer, why give up so much to be slightly better at something you could already be great at with next to no effort required?
Also I think you have to get creative with the corpse companion.
I mean you can't deny the cool factor of a Flaming Skeleton T-Rex companion.
You'd need to be a level 36 Undead Lord to have a Flaming Skeleton Tyrannosaurus Skeleton corpse companion. Even a regular non-flaming T-Rex skeleton would require you to be level 18. The corpse companion has a pretty atrocious hit die cap, so it's always going to be weaker than you'd like and die sooner than you'd prefer. It's often not even worth the whopping 8 hours of downtime required to bring back.
It may not be the best archetype in an optimization stance but the healing boost and flavor are top notch.
It's a -1/-1 archetype in my view. Not without redeeming features, but a negative tradeoff across all fronts.
I'd also like to add some love for Unlettered Arcanist as a dip. You can pick up an Arcane Exploit (like Dimensional Slide) for another class, and pick up the abiity to use most status removal scrolls/wands, and get a free familiar. Paying 500-2000 gp if the familair happens to die isn't horrible past the early levels, and enough of the familiar abilities scale with your level/hp/abilities that it's stays useful.
Hmm... not sure if it's worthwhile
Summoner Synthesist.
You can basically throw away your physical scores and still have decent ones, as well as customize your character through your eidolon. Including getting Perfect flight at level 5.
This one is just going to keep coming up, isn't it?
Synthesist Summoner is rated as +1 power / -1 versatility. The reason for this is that by combining the two forms of eidolon and summoner the composite character is much more powerful, particularly in regard to longevity. However, you lose out on having a separate eidolon with its own skills and feats, and all the benefits that this can bring. You also can only take one action per turn, while a regular summoner effectively gets to take two turns. So while the Synthesist is a powerhouse, it pays for it because there's a lot less you can do with the character than you could with the vanilla Summoner/Eidolon tag team.
The ability to ignore physical stats and pump mental ones is a useful one, but it's not enough to move the rankings on its own. What are you going to get out of it? You have fewer skill points since you no longer have the independent eidolon, a slightly higher will save from better wisdom is offset by the fact that you get knocked out by one failed save (whereas default summoner is still on half power if one of the two is incapacitated), and you've locked yourself out of your SLA so charisma isn't as useful as you'd like. It's a benefit, sure, but not nearly enough to shift the ranking on its own. Not sure your angle bringing up flight; regular eidolons get that at the 5th level too. I see that as neither here nor there for the archetype.
At low levels your eidolon is strong enough without you in it - how many enemies survive a 5-attack-pounce? I'd rather buff my party with haste than waste even more attacks because the charge target is already dead.
I'd rate synthetist at -1/-1 or possibly even -2/-1: Yes, it feels strong because you are the best martial ever, but we are not rating the archetype in comparison to martials - we compare it to the base class. Synthetist looses the summoner's strongest boon, the freakish benefit to action economy from pretty much having two characters.
Updated the guide with the recent scores, and once again apologizes for the delay. Busy bee's have to make honey somehow!
On another note, I will try to clean up the guides and get them to follow the same format. I will also break up any rankings with DIP and perhaps either separate them further from the base rankings on the same page, or put a DIP page at the bottom of the document. Would like some thoughts on it.
Finally to Secret Wizard, the rankings are staying as they are more for consistency then anything else. If you want to create an archetype guide with your preferred ranking system, go for it! We have multiple class guides, having multiple archetype guides is cool too!
it shouldn't actually be more powerful. Its better early but 10+ the regular summoner takes over.
I said before but as a regular summoner you have twice as many feats, the same combat ability but all your spells are quickened AND you can possibly double quicken a spell. a lesser quicken rod is AWESOME if you save up for it, and it is achievable to have one by level 11.
I guess most the campaigns i have been in recently have been happening around lvl 5. So I found the ability to boost my physical attributes while being able to cast spells as useful. Rather then just having a companion who slices stuff.
Just noticed that the wording of Blood Arcanist (and School Savant Arcanist) DOESN'T restrict you from taking a Bloodline (or Arcane School) altered by an archetype, unlike the Bloodline Development Arcane Exploit, which explicitly prohibits this (although strangely, the School Understanding Arcane Exploit doesn't). Blood Arcanist also gets you the Bloodline Arcana, but read the wording carefully to make sure it really works for you -- for instance, the Psychic Bloodline (which really should have been a Sorcerer archetype like Id Rager for Bloodrager) Arcana lets you cast spells with Thought and Emotion components instead of Verbal and Somatic components, but it only lets you cast Sorcerer spells as Psychic spells, and doesn't the component substitution actually require your spells to be cast as Psychic spells?
They came out with a FAQ that says you can't take any archetyped bloodline with anything that grants a bloodline since you don't have that archetype.
^Which makes the wording in the Arcanist Exploit Bloodline Development redundant . . . This writeup of Wildblooded Bloodlines as archetypes rather tha sub-Bloodlines (like Cleric Subdomains) is getting to be a real pain -- and it's totally unnecessary for the overwhelming majority of them (the exceptions that actually need archetypes being Empyreal, Sage, and Psychic, the last of which ISN'T an archetype when it should be).
Thanks so far for all everyone's work. I'm enjoying reading this just to get more familiarized with Archetypes that I haven't personally used.
And yes, hidden wizard, you manifestly can voice your disapproval of this rating style. You have done so once before on this very page of the discussion, and no one shouted you down or anything.
Crouching Cleric, Hidden Wizard?
I'm pretty sure he's Secret Wizard.
Secret Wizard, then. My apologies.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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And next, the Skald...
Demon Dancer: pow -1, vrs -2; this is pretty bad. It locks you into one particular set of rage powers that you could have picked anyway, and that aren't too great for most characters. Worse, it can force all party members to keep attacking the same enemy even when that's tactically not a good idea. There's no real benefit to this archetype.
Dragon Skald: pow -1, vrs +0; you replace a useful feat with three niche spells you don't particularly need, and a broad bonus to skills with a narrow bonus to other skills. It's somewhat weaker than the standard skald, but if you like the flavor it's not a bad choice.
Fated Champion: pow +1, vrs +0; the main appeal of this archetype is its initiative bonus. Well, that's always good to have. The other benefits are niche, and its capstone ability can be more-or-less duplicated by the first-level spell Saving Finale, but the archetype doesn't lose a lot either.
Herald of the Horn: pow +1, vrs -1; you basically trade the versatility of spell kenning for a good bonus to save DC, and a nice counter to enemy enchantment spells. However, you can't use two-handed weapons or shields with this archetype, and the horn of blasting ability is decidedly mediocre. It's good for a skald focused on casting.
Spell Warrior: pow -1, vrs -1; skalds don't make good counterspellers; even with the bonuses from this archetype, they still aren't very good at it. The weapon song is a fun ability, but overall weaker than inspired rage; the best choices are usually flaming/frost/shocking. All in all this archetype doesn't really accomplish what it's made for.
Totemic Skald: pow +2, vrs -1; you gain wildshape ability, although only to one form; the best choices here are the bear and tiger. These also give your allies a welcome boost to constitution or dexterity, assuming they don't have a belt that increases it. You do lose the versatility of spell kenning, but it's a strong archetype overall.
War Drummer: pow +0, vrs +0; you are locked into a sub-par weapon but gain enough bonuses with it to make up for that. Instead of gaining knowledges, you become even better at socializing. Plus you get a fun if very niche siege ability at level 7. This is basically an even, and flavorful, trade.
I agree that the Spell Warrior Skald has use mainly because it actually functions in most parties; the Skald's main problem is that it's basically useless if your primary martial is anyone other than a 2h melee warrior that isn't a Barbarian or Bloodrager and Spell Warrior alleviates that. Still sucks if you're working with a Magus or a Warpriest, though.
Found another Fighter archetype that I somehow missed on the previous go-around (and when adding this one, also add Sensate, posted earlier in this thread).
Siegebreaker (Dip Versatility +0, Power +1; Full Versatility +0, Power +0): For a Dip of 1 level, Breaker Rush is like getting Improved Bull Rush and Improved Overrun for the price of 1 Bonus Combat Feat, and it even stacks a little bit with the actual feats (which you will need if you want the Greater versions of these feats). For a dip of 2 levels, you get to do a free Improved Overrun in all but name (again stacking a little bit with the actual feat) if you succeed at a Bull Rush (Breaker Momentum) -- this is worth losing the first rank of Bravery for a worse ability (Armored Vigor, which gives you an average of 1/2 Hit Point per level -- definitely less useful than Bravery, even though that isn't stellar itself). For Full Progression, though, losing Bravery for Armored Vigor hurts; the other tradeoffs are decent, but do not really make up for this. At least you get to keep both Armor Training (and Armor Mastery) and Weapon Training (but not Weapon Mastery), so when the Armor Master's Handbook comes out, as with the Weapon Master's Handbook, this archetype may become better to most other Fighter archetypes (which trade out Armor Training and Weapon Training).