I would like to argue that the Bolt Ace is a fantastic archetype. Not only is it completely viable in non-gun campaigns but the archetype is exceptionally useful even when the Traditional Gunslinger is available.
Starting with a Masterwork crossbow is wonderful, but also Crossbows are reliable from day 1 with Rapid Reload available from the start. There is no long reload on anything but the Heavy Crossbow, and no guns can say the same without delving into alchemic ammunition. Since you're using crossbows there is no need for you to get into melee. You've got a long reach with a crossbow, almost as much as a bow and that reach can be mighty deadly and at level 5 you rock that nasty critical multiplier increase.
Its a better archetype than its been given credit for.
Using a scroll or drinking a potion provokes.
just DRAWING an item? Doesn't provoke at all, and never has.
==Aelryinth
Stored item is not a Sheathed Item. Stored item is grabbing it out of a backpack, box, or bag. Sheathed weapons don't have that problem.
at least, that's how I always read that rule. I.e. you can draw a sword, but if you try to grab it out of your backpack, you have a problem.
==Aelryinth
That's not the language you quoted, CWheezy.
You said "Retrieve a stored item."
But the examples earlier were 'Drawing weapons."
So now you're saying I'm wrong, AND I'm right?
A weapon IS an item. Any item scabbarded or sheathed for quick drawing isn't going to provoke. This can be scrolls in a chest slot, potions on your belt, etc.
Those are not 'stored' items. They are sheathed or scabbarded just like weapons.
Now, if you have to blunder your fingers through a case of 20 scrolls trying to find the right one, yeah, provokes.
Yeah, if you pull it out of your Heward's Haversack...it might be faster then a non-magical pack, but it's still stored, and it still provokes.
basically, if you could Quick Draw the item, it's not going to provoke. If it's inside another container (the definition of 'stored'), it is.
==Aelryinth
I would like to argue that the Bolt Ace is a fantastic archetype. Not only is it completely viable in non-gun campaigns but the archetype is exceptionally useful even when the Traditional Gunslinger is available.
Starting with a Masterwork crossbow is wonderful, but also Crossbows are reliable from day 1 with Rapid Reload available from the start. There is no long reload on anything but the Heavy Crossbow, and no guns can say the same without delving into alchemic ammunition. Since you're using crossbows there is no need for you to get into melee. You've got a long reach with a crossbow, almost as much as a bow and that reach can be mighty deadly and at level 5 you rock that nasty critical multiplier increase.
Its a better archetype than its been given credit for.
It makes an otherwise suboptimal strategy viable. It still doesn't make you competitive with an Archer. I'm not sure if it really deserves the -1 but it's been a bit overhyped on these boards. After running the numbers I wasn't overly impressed.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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+2/+2 is the highest rating available under the current rating system. I'm aware that several people have said +3/+3, just to emphasize how "above and beyond" this archetype is. The question isn't whether Razmiran Priest is worthy of a "transcendent" ranking (because I fully agree that it's first in line if any archetype is) but whether we're going to diverge from the agreed-upon ranking schema at all.
I agree. There's always going to be some archetype that is the best of the top category, but that doesn't mean we have to make a whole new category for that archetype.
Since it's practical to have five levels (-2 through +2), it would be more helpful to players to explain in the text why exactly Razmiran is so great.
Obligatory link to the document!
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What you have to remember with spell options is:
1) Not all spells will be useful
2) Doesnt change action economy - you can still only cast 1 per round!
For the Razmiran due to being a sorceror and 1 level behind already and then having a further -1 level for the spell to be cast (having to use a higher level slot), some spells will still make absolutely great options and others not so. Plus being a scroll caster has its down sides - namely the numerous AOO given away from all the fiddling and having your Sorceror DC and CL from the scrolls not the caster!!
If you really, really want to get spell option crazy and maybe compromise your build in other ways.... this is basically unbeatable.
And you will basically have every single spell you could ever want AND have an enormous available spell list AND have the flexibility of prepared casting.....
But then you will be hyper specialised which isnt necessarily the most ideal or even enjoyable option!!!
It makes an otherwise suboptimal strategy viable. It still doesn't make you competitive with an Archer. I'm not sure if it really deserves the -1 but it's been a bit overhyped on these boards. After running the numbers I wasn't overly impressed.I would like to argue that the Bolt Ace is a fantastic archetype. Not only is it completely viable in non-gun campaigns but the archetype is exceptionally useful even when the Traditional Gunslinger is available.
Starting with a Masterwork crossbow is wonderful, but also Crossbows are reliable from day 1 with Rapid Reload available from the start. There is no long reload on anything but the Heavy Crossbow, and no guns can say the same without delving into alchemic ammunition. Since you're using crossbows there is no need for you to get into melee. You've got a long reach with a crossbow, almost as much as a bow and that reach can be mighty deadly and at level 5 you rock that nasty critical multiplier increase.
Its a better archetype than its been given credit for.
If the system was more granular (I originally had it at -1 within in a context of -3 to +3 scale), I'd probably have it at a -.5
I don't think it's a bad archetype, it's just that guns are superior than crossbows past a certain point (Around level 4 or 5), so eventually you start to lose out. Also, gunsmithing is a really great way to supplement party income.
I am actually strangely fond of the superstitious barbarian in builds that do not take invulnerable rager. DR 2/- at level 10 isn't much, and getting, say, triple range LLV and darkvision on a half-elf or LLV and Darkvision 120 on a half-orc is quite solid in many campaigns. Considering how good the standard damage reduction is, I would put it at equal or higher to the core barbarian in both versatility and power.
I haven't done the numbers and mainly don't play high level games, so I will take your word.
True, but what actually DOES compete with an archer? Archery is the strongest combat style in Pathfinder for a reason, and while Guns target touch AC they are also banned in quite a few games because of GMs illogical fear of Gunslingers.
Perhaps that is the point, maybe the Bolt Ace should get two ratings. One for "Guns are allowed in the Campaign" and one for "This is your only option for playing a Gunslinger". This is an archetype guide, I think it is worth mentioning the one archetype that your GM might allow and ranking it accordingly.
YOu were being selective in your posting to make an erroneous point.
Here's the full rule.
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon (Note: Drawing doesn't provoke AoO)
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
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The bandolier text is erroneous on what action it is quoting. According to that description, you can't wear bandoliers of daggers and retrieve them easily...despite that being EXACTLY what dagger throwers do. I suspect they didn't realize they were quoting the wrong rule. If there's a weapon or weapon-like object in there, it shouldn't provoke at all.
In effect, the bandolier contradicts itself. It's there to make drawing a bunch of weapons/potions/whatever EASIER, not harder...but making it harder is what it is doing as it stands.
I suspect that bandoliers are supposed to be draw as move action, no AoO,and the SRD guy didn't realize it. Upon reflection, I'm pretty sure you'll agree. Because I don't think you're going to argue that pulling throwing daggers out of a bandolier is just as hard as pulling them out of your backpack.
===Aelryinth
Wands of CLW are not weapon-like, either. A potion or scroll, rolled up, is much like a weapon of any type as a wand is. A potion bottle isn't that much different then brass knuckles (and hey, cracking potion, er, beer bottles on heads is a time proven weapon), for instance, and a scroll isn't that much different then a fan, both of which are weapons.
Drinking a potion or USING the scroll, that's an action that provokes. Just drawing it out of a sheathe or scabbard that is designed to get it into your hand quick isn't going to provoke.
When it says 'weapon-like' it means in approximate size and form, not function.
==Aelryinth
wands are classified as weapon like, scrolls and potions are not.
A wand of CLW is not a weapon.
It is SHAPED like a weapon.
Roll up a scroll. It's now shaped like a wand.
A long, thin vial for a potion is probably shaped like a hot dog. That's the exact same shape as a set of knuckle dusters or a roll of coins, which are also weapons.
A teapot could be a weapon, but unless you put it on a chain and attach the chain to a stick, it's not shaped like one.
So, your logic fails miserably. Tell me, what could 'weapon-like' possibly mean? Either it is a weapon, or it isn't, if that's your judgement. There's no 'like'. A wand of KNOCK isn't a weapon. A wand of FEATHER FALL isn't a weapon. Yada, yada, yada. So, being a WAND doesn't mean you are a weapon.
It means you are 'weapon-like', which means you are something that is shaped kinda like a weapon, to be drawn and used quickly. Rolled up or folded scrolls and potion vials both qualify.
Or are you now going to tell me alchemical vials for throwing are now weapons or weapon like, but the exact same vial with a potion in it is not?
That a buckler with a Symbol painted on it is a weapon, but a scroll folded in fan form to be drawn and displayed is not?
Inquiring minds want to know!
==Aelryinth
So... Divine Commander Warpriest?
Obligatory link to the document!
By the way, in case anyone didn't notice, both the document and this thread are now linked from the Zenith Games Guide to the Guides.
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With respect to the debate about drawing items, I'm afraid that I have to come to the conclusion that the Rules As Written need a bit of fixing to correct for such things as being able to quick-draw a flask of Alchemist's Fire but not a Potion in an identical container.
I would say titan mauler is being a bit under rated at the moment. Can anyone clarify where the "MINUS SIX" penalty is coming from? I thought it was just -2? And that doesn't seem like a bad ability when it lets you one-handed that +1 furious earth breaker while grappled. It's true that the two weapon abilities don't synergize, but in my opinion it opens up a lot of new weapon options, especially for guys who fight a lot of Giant's. Plus, every campaign gets to a point where everything you're fighting has 10'+ reach. I'd say the rating should be +0/+0 at the worst. The loss of speed does suck, but the other abilities can be solid.
Aelryinth, are you arguing logic or rules? On rules you've been shown the answers.
I think the original definition of weapon-like in PF was put in place to nerf the flask rogue, i.e. a character who threw alchemical weapons to get sneak attack on (multiple) touch attacks. It's there to stop them quick-drawing flasks of acid. Like it or not - flasks of acid and so potions are not weapon-like in PF. Scrolls are a casualty which may or may not be intended. Wands escaped.
^Contrary to popular belief, rules and logic do not always go together.
Wait, somebody in the Pathfinder developers thought Rogue needed a nerf?
They're on the record as hating the flask rogue way back when in 3.x, yes. To be fair the damage output could be extreme, and some people dislike the image of a hail of (TWF+rapid shot) acid flasks hitting a dragon somewhere sensitive.
Aelryinth, are you arguing logic or rules? On rules you've been shown the answers.
I think the original definition of weapon-like in PF was put in place to nerf the flask rogue, i.e. a character who threw alchemical weapons to get sneak attack on (multiple) touch attacks. It's there to stop them quick-drawing flasks of acid. Like it or not - flasks of acid and so potions are not weapon-like in PF. Scrolls are a casualty which may or may not be intended. Wands escaped.
wait, so all these alchemist builds that are quick-drawing acid blast grenades can't actually do it, because alchemical weapons are not weapon like?
I mean, seriously, a potion is shaped exactly like the hilt of a sword...
:)
The lack of logic following through and poor definitions escapes me.
And btw, I wasn't arguing for quick drawing potions and alchemical weapons, Ayr. QUICK DRAW specifically forbids that.
I was arguing that you could draw them without triggering an AoO. Totally different thing. If it's still a move action, fine by me. Note: DRAW them. Not USE them. Still an AoO to drink the potion and read the scroll. Nothing in the rule forbidding it. Because you're trying to argue that 'weapon-like' somehow 'only' includes wands. Which can't be correct, or they wouldn't even have included it in the verbiage, they'd have just said wands.
--
As for the rogues nerf....yeah, they nerfed the ability of a Rogue throwing vials of acid at flat footed/flanked opponents. Because it was a touch attack and all sneak attack damage applied. The damage numbers could get ridiculous pretty fast with the auto-hits (and they didn't even need weapon finesse since they were throwing).
If they got to SA an opponent, it was pretty much a one round kill.
==Aelryinth
Two-way street. All those goblins rogues SAing flasks of alchemist fires.
goblin rogues weren't a thing in 3.5. Kobolds, maybe.
==Aelryinth
I AM ALIVE!
Sorry for not being back sooner, as someone posted already however, yes holidays were a massive time sink. I wanted to thank everyone for posting and continuing to give insight about archetypes. I also wanted to clarify a couple of points and questions I have seen.
1. For those worried about spelling errors, unless I missed it, I have gone through and tried to correct the vast majority of them. So it should be less prone to errors.
2. Razmiran Priest will have a description, noting that it could be past the +2/+2 rating system, but won't be to stay with the current format. However DM's should look at the archetype and if obliged ban it if it seems problematic. If it is not banworthy, I will remove that portion of the ruling.
3. While I like the rules discussion, I really would prefer that most of the conversation be about a discussion of archetypes. As such I will say this about the drawing conversation, and hopefully we can create a new thread if additional discussion is needed. Note that as RAW some of this may need to be clarified, but this is how I see the RAR:
Yes, you can draw Potions, Scrolls, Wands, Flasks, Bandolier items, Etc. as a Move action without provoking AOO as long as they would be in containers that do not count as stored. Yes, you can also do so as a free action as part of your move action if you have a BAB of +1 without provoking AOO. In terms of what is considered stored, that can be up to DM discretion, or use your best judgement.
No, you cannot draw a stored Potion, Scroll, Wand, Flask, Etc. from your backpack, haversack, Etc. without provoking AOO.
You provoke AOO by using any of the above listed items, regardless of whether you drew said items as a move action or free action, and regardless of whether that action itself provokes AOO. The argument instead comes down to whether you want to take 1 guaranteed AOO for using said items, or 1 guaranteed AOO and 1 AOO based on your discretion, as some believe that drawing provokes, others do not. Personally as a DM and player, I prefer the former.
I posted some Cleric reviews (using the versatility/power scale) a few pages back. Might want to merge these in?Reposting, in case you missed it,
Thanks for the repost mate!
I actually am going to also put a message right after this asking the original poster of the Cleric Archetypes to clarify their rankings based on the rating format. I haven't added yours to the aggregate score because in all honesty I don't have the numbers I need to fairly make that determination.
Asmodean Advocate = 0
OK if you want something a bit RP thematic but other than that... MEH!...
Hey mate! I wanted to actually contact you for an updated score on the Cleric rankings you gave before. The current system is using +2, +1, 0, -1, -2 or in non-numbered definition Great, Good, Average, Bad and Terrible.
The archetype is scored based on Power and Versatility.
So for Cloistered Cleric as an example, you could change it from a broad -2, to a -2 Power, -2 Versatility.
Hope to hear back from ya soon mate! Wanted to see the new scores since a couple more people have put some scores for the archetypes as well, and I can't figure out an average until I get your revised scores.
Thanks for posting updates.
I noticed at least one place in my stuff where I missed a place where my phone Bluetooth keyboard missed a character (search for "oly" -- should be "only"). Also, where I put "Racial archetypes (all)", that was for the purpose of letting people know that my second post reviewing Witch archetypes finished out the set -- it can be stripped down to "Racial archetypes". Sorry for the inconvenience.
Nah don't sweat it! I'll be sure to go over everything as I am able and make the needed changes. The hardest part is actually going through every single number rating and changing the color to a corresponding color, to help a little with finding out what is good and what is not with a glance.
I am nowhere near familiar enough with the Shaman class to do a full rating of archetypes (anyone else want to take this one on?), but this thread about Unsworn Shaman makes me think that this archetype needs a guide all its own.
I figured since I've already done Wizard and Sorcerer that Arcanist was the natural "next thing" on the list. I would appreciate second opinions on Blade Adept and Twilight Sage, as I'm not entirely sure of my assessment. Twilight Sage in particular looks like something that could swing between broken and useless depending on the whims of the GM and your ability to exploit (no pun intended) consume life to its fullest.
Blade Adept
Power +2
Versatility 0
This archetype is a perfect choice for any Arcanist heading towards the Eldritch Knight prestige class. You gain a bonded item that becomes a black blade, you can spend an exploit to gain access to spell strike, and although you can't get access to the Magus' spell combat you do have the massive advantage of 9-level casting. However, you're stuck with 1/2 BAB until you qualify for Eldritch Knight, and this archetype burns through many of your exploits to get running. So while the archetype is very effective at what it does, it's only for very specific and niche builds.
Blood Arcanist
Power +1
Versatility +2
You trade off a bunch of exploits for access to a Sorcerer bloodline. Provided you pick a good bloodline, this is decisively a positive trade. While it does cost several exploits, they're nicely spread throughout your career and getting the best reward up front (the bloodline arcana) means you'll never be hurting.
Brown-Fur Transmuter
Power 0
Versatility +1
Essentially you trade a couple of exploits to gain access to improved options for buffing the rest of your party. There are very few options for getting personal spells on to non-spellcasters, and the selection from the polymorph school is pretty good. It is dependant on party makeup, and the biggest downside of all is that you're stuck being the "furry" at the arcane spellcaster conventions.
Eldritch Font
Power 0
Versatility -2
Losing out on the number of spells you can prepare greatly slows your progression and flexibility. To make matters worse, you trade off a large number of exploits for mutually-exclusive abilities. No matter what you do, you can only use your Eldritch Surge twice per day, so having many different ways to use it isn't as nice as it sounds on paper.
Elemental Master
Power 0
Versatility 0
The number of spells with elemental descriptors is actually a rather small list, so there are only a small number of opposition spells to be mindful but in the same breath there are very few options for your specialist spell type. Overall, the trade is fairly tepid either way and it's about neutral with the exploits you could have gotten.
Occultist
Power +1
Versatility +2
Trading off a couple of exploits for access to one of the best class features in the game, this archetype is an absolute no-brainer for anyone who wants to use Summon Monster spells extensively. The longer duration and shorter casting time makes it a lot more practical, and all without requiring you to even prepare the spell.
School Savant
Power +1
Versatility +2
Gain all the school powers of a Wizard, including the ability to prepare an extra spell every day. While you do need to take opposition schools, the extremely narrow number of spells an arcanist can prepare each day makes it even easier to limit yourself to 6 schools.
Spell Specialist
Power 0
Versatility -1
At the cost of many exploits and permanently locking up a large segment of your daily spell preparation loadout you too can gain a +1 boost to the DC's of your favorite spells. While this trade isn't terrible on its own, paying four exploits and getting some nearly-useless abilities on the side makes it a questionable archetype.
Twilight Sage
Power +1
Versatility 0
With no limitation on its usage per day, the Twilight Sage can use his Consume Life to - at least in theory - keep his arcane reservoir topped up at all times. In practice, getting living enemies of the appropriate HD range to negative hit points without killing them is easier said than done, and the loss of the more practical consume spells ability means you'll struggle if you can't pull it off. The large number of exploits you give up for abilities of questionable value is another big sticking point.
Unlettered Arcanist
Power -1
Versatility -2
Trade off a spellbook for the vastly inferior witch familiar rules, resulting in higher costs to learn spells and a critical vulnerability. Trade off the broad sorcerer/wizard spell list for the much more narrow witch spell list, but without patron spells to supplement it. This archetype is literally nothing but downsides with no redeeming qualities.
White Mage
Power 0
Versatility +1
This archetype does exactly what you might expect, giving your arcanist access to a reliable form of healing. This is particularly nice for role compression on the party, but it does not gain access to the Heal spell. Past the 9th level this archetype is largely outclassed by the Occultist, which can use his summoning spell-like ability to summon outsiders that have healing spell-like abilities.
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mfw Crossblooded Sorcerers are at +1 -2 and Synthesist Summoners are at +1 -1.
What? Is there anyone on this thread that has defended using Crossblooded at all? Is there some errata that makes them usable that I don't know about? I agree with the logic behind dipping Xblood Sorcerers, but going Xblooded as a full commit is weak and loses a TON of versatility.
mfw Crossblooded Sorcerers are at +1 -2 and Synthesist Summoners are at +1 -1.
What? Is there anyone on this thread that has defended using Crossblooded at all? Is there some errata that makes them usable that I don't know about? I agree with the logic behind dipping Xblood Sorcerers, but going Xblooded as a full commit is weak and loses a TON of versatility.
First of all, -2 is the lowest score that can be given in either category. Crossblooded gets that -2 in the versatility category, so we're all on the same page there. For power, it earns its +1 primarily because it works just fine for builds that are just going to be spamming one spell that's been souped up with metamagic. Hence, it earns its +1 power ranking... with the huge red flag of a -2 versatility ranking.
Synthesist Summoner is going to be contentious no matter how it's ranked. When I first posted my +1/-1 ranking, I immediately had people on both sides saying I ranked it too high or too low. It's just a very divisive archetype. A lot of people focus in on the fact that the single composite creature is really fricken strong, and they're totally right. Other people focus in on the fact that you lose out on a separate set of actions every turn and a lot of customization options from the eidolon having their own skills and feats, and they're totally right too! I regard the archetype in a very mixed light, with some very powerful advantages but steep tradeoffs. Hence its rather mixed score.
And don't put too much weight on them being only 1 point apart. There is a rather big gulf between -1 and -2. To quote the initial definition:
To get a -1 a class must not only give up important class features, but what they get in return is either very specialized or much more limited than what they gave up. A -2 in the versatility category means the class's ability to fulfill its intended role is compromised, and while they may still function in some limited respects they are poor substitutes for their vanilla class.
I feel these adequately describe the synthesist summoner and crossblooded sorcerer respectively. The synthesist summoner gives up a major class feature (the independent eidolon) and what it gets in return, while powerful, is much more specialized and narrow. The crossbooded Sorcerer fits -2 perfectly, functioning in limited respects but otherwise being a poor substitute for a real Sorcerer.
I disagree on several of Dasrak's estimates. Here's my take:
Blade Adept
Power -1
Versatility 0
You're losing two exploits, which hurts on the versatility front. On the other hand the arcane bond adds back 1 spell/day and you've got a melee option, so call that about the same. OTOH for power you're losing early access to exploits, and even as an entry to eldritch knight that hurts - especially since a melee arcanist is going to be really stretched for feats and won't likely be able to afford extra exploit even once they qualify for it.
Blood Arcanist
Power +1
Versatility -1
There are many possible uses for the Blood Arcanist. Each one is going to be pretty specialised though; any given Blood Arcanist will be more specialised than a standard arcanist.
Brown-Fur Transmuter
Power 0
Versatility +1
I mostly agree with Dasrak; note that this may actually be a better entry to Eldritch Knight than Blade Adept is.
Eldritch Font
Power -1
Versatility -2
<Channel Admiral Ackbar here> You lose the most important kind of versatility (the kind which shades into power level too) for a bonus which doesn't stack with your arcane reservoir, and when you use that bonus (which you would normally only do in an emergency) you lose the ability to run away. Don't do it.
Elemental Master
Power -1
Versatility -1
The elemental focus looks OK, but then you're forced to take a bunch of terrible exploits. The 15th level ability might be nice to have but overall this is weak.
Harrowed Society Student
Power 0
Versatility +1
Dasrak didn't rate this one - The exploit replacements are so-so but the replacement for consume spells is OK, and then you get a few spells off other lists without paying a further cost. Better, you get to pick the spells rather than be forced to a specific list.
Occultist
Power +1
Versatility +2
Agree with Dasrak.
School Savant
Power 0
Versatility +1
Kind of agree but ... the best wizard school powers are often level 1 and not dependent on level (i.e. you could get the one you want with the school understanding exploit), which means the main reason you're taking for this is the extra spell prepared.
Spell Specialist
Power 0
Versatility -1
Agree with Dasrak.
Twilight Sage
Power +1
Versatility -1
At first this is easy to work around without being evil; bring a herd of animals along when you travel. Past ~level 6 though you're either evil or weak. Being required to prepare a bunch of necromancy spells (without the school savant bonus) is a definite hit to versatility.
Unlettered Arcanist
Power -1
Versatility -2
Agree with Dasrak.
White Mage
Power 0
Versatility -1
You have to spend a couple of exploits on a remarkably inefficient form of healing. Reliable yes, use in non-emergencies no.
My thoughts on Blade Adept Arcanist: I would give this a rating of power +0 to +1 (+2 for very specific build), versatility -1 to +0, because although the extra martial weapon and Magus Arcana are nice, you are restricted in what you can use for both (and the weapon is your bonded weapon, so you can't just solve the problem by dipping or taking a feat to get weapon proficiency -- two-handed weapons are still right out). However, I came up with a build that -- while not exactly solving this -- mitigates it by getting you more Strength (or if you're really crazy, Dexterity) from Bloodrage, Rage (Spell), or Skald's Inspired Rage (with Mad Magic to enable Arcanist spellcasting while in such a state), taking advantage of the overpowered nature of the Arcane Exploit Bloodline Development, and using VMC Magus to make more Magus Arcana available while letting you use your Blade Adept Arcanist level as your effective Magus level to enable use of Magus Arcana that are technically legal but in practice unusable with VMC Magus alone, because that does not give you an effective Magus level for determining the effects of Magus Arcana, only for qualifying for them. Also see the Bloodrager dip ratings that I posted earlier in this thread (and a prototype of these, along with ratings of Bloodrager Bloodlines for this purpose, is earlier in the Arcanist guide discussion thread linked above). You COULD go Eldritch Knight with this build if you want Combat Feats instead of more Arcane Exploits, but the Magus Arcana Maneuver Mastery (using VMC Magus to qualify and Blade Adept Arcanist for effective Magus levels) gives you equivalent of full BAB for Combat Maneuvers, so this is less necessary, and on the downside, it costs you another level of spellcasting progression (and caster level if you don't have Magical Knack).
My thoughts on Blood Arcanist and School Savant; without necessarily changing your numeric ratings, you actually can do better than these with the Arcane Exploits Bloodline Development or School Understanding (respectively), provided that you dip in a class that gives you a Bloodline or Arcane School, in which case 1 Exploit does the work of the several Exploits you would have to give up for the corresponding archetypes. For Bloodlie Development, note that you can use this to extend a Sorcerer Bloodline or a Bloodrager Bloodline (see above). That said, if you want to go absolutely uninterrupted single class, Blood Arcanist and School Savent are viable options.
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By the way, somebody posted Sensate Fighter (which I initially missed, and then I also commented on it after their post) in this thread, but it isn't in the document.
Blade Adept
Power -1
Versatility 0
You're losing two exploits, which hurts on the versatility front. On the other hand the arcane bond adds back 1 spell/day and you've got a melee option, so call that about the same. OTOH for power you're losing early access to exploits, and even as an entry to eldritch knight that hurts - especially since a melee arcanist is going to be really stretched for feats and won't likely be able to afford extra exploit even once they qualify for it.
A lot of weighing back and forth "on the other hand" considerations. Wouldn't put it negative on power with all its offering; I don't think a prospective EK could get enough out of two Exploits to compete with a free intelligent weapon.
Blood Arcanist
Power +1
Versatility -1
There are many possible uses for the Blood Arcanist. Each one is going to be pretty specialised though; any given Blood Arcanist will be more specialised than a standard arcanist
I think you're being way too harsh here. While it's a bit of a wait for 5th level to get extra exploits, you're getting a lot of great stuff up front. Past that point, I just can't see ranking this archetype negatively; you can start buying back your exploits with feats. At very minimum, this is a less expensive and more powerful version of VMC Sorcerer or the Eldritch Heritage feat line, both of which are pretty decent options in their own rights.
Still, I can accept that I was a bit too lenient here (I love my sorcerer bloodlines). Meet you at +1/+1?
Harrowed Society Student
Power 0
Versatility +1
Dasrak didn't rate this one - The exploit replacements are so-so but the replacement for consume spells is OK, and then you get a few spells off other lists without paying a further cost. Better, you get to pick the spells rather than be forced to a specific list.
Heh, missed this one. Yeah, the ability to just pick any divination spell off of any spell list is pretty slick.
School Savant
Power 0
Versatility +1
Kind of agree but ... the best wizard school powers are often level 1 and not dependent on level (i.e. you could get the one you want with the school understanding exploit), which means the main reason you're taking for this is the extra spell prepared.
Diviner's tricked out initiative and Teleportation Conjurer's shift would be the biggest counter-examples that scale with level, and most of the higher-level abilities are worth at least an exploit on their own.
White Mage
Power 0
Versatility -1
You have to spend a couple of exploits on a remarkably inefficient form of healing. Reliable yes, use in non-emergencies no.
Eh, I don't think it's worth a negative. A bit overpriced at two exploits, but given how rare healing abilities are on arcane spellcasters it's certainly a neat angle. At least it doesn't force that utterly atrocious greater exploit down your throat...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Well, the issue with blade adept is that while a BA clearly wants to go into Eldritch Knight, the reverse is not true: if you're looking to build an EK, then BA is really not a very good lead-in to that.
BA pretends to be a gish but fails at that, making it a trap archetype. Sure, it's still strong by virtue of being a full caster, but it doesn't do what it sets out to do.
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First of all, -2 is the lowest score that can be given in either category. Crossblooded gets that -2 in the versatility category, so we're all on the same page there. For power, it earns its +1 primarily because it works just fine for builds that are just going to be spamming one spell that's been souped up with metamagic. Hence, it earns its +1 power ranking... with the huge red flag of a -2 versatility ranking.
It's hard to say that additional bloodline arcanas and options from both bloodlines even merits a +1 was my point, I guess. It's beyond specialized if you want a +1 worthy Sorc, it's single-minded. I can only think of one build that would work off the top of my head, and it involves the ever-present fireball spam. Comparing the scores on other archetypes, giving something as lackluster and limiting as Crossblooded a positive score at all is veeeery lenient.
CN, you basically NEED Crossblooded's power to make an effective fireballer. That right there shows you the power of the default options. It simply gives that much to DD builds.
But it's largely the ONLY build that stacks so well. Hence, versatility in the hole. The only reason you take it is for the default, and generally you won't even take Sorc levels beyond that first one.
So, for the build you take it for...it's a VERY nice power boost. For all else, blah. No versatility.
The rating is spot on. Like the Synth Summoner...awesome in its ONE build, and unexceptional otherwise.
==Aelryinth
You can also crossblooded with an enchanter goal, let's you affect more thing it some things plus a bonus
I think we should get a consensus on what Versatility means between
1)How many differents build you can make with that archetype
2)How many different thing you can do with the average build using the archetype
to make an example between classes, Oracle is more versatile than the Cleric in the (1) sense, but is much less versatile in the (2) sense