Long story short: My PC is 9 levels of cleric. Now I need to take 3 levels of barbarian. How do I make a PC that is not a ridiculous sub-par healer while the rest of the party plays the game?
Any feat suggestions? Any build suggestions? The DM said I could re-tool my cleric levels if I want.
Interesting. Ability scores and current gear (if any) would be helpful. If the character is being made from scratch, then you're merely working the barbarian levels into your background.
Are there any limitations on source materials, i.e. are 3rd party publishers' materials permitted?
Why is he doing this, that sounds pretty obnoxious. Do you have the stats to be a melee monster? You may need to focus on offense. It can synergize, but it's not idea. Buff yourself and concentrate on out of combat healing. But if you're not pleased about it you should figure out why it's happening and discuss it with your GM.
Thanks for the advice. I think he is trying to challenge me, and it fits into the storyline of the campaign. Still, this is the toughest build I have been faced with. I fear that my PC will be slain (again) in short order. I suppose I could buff first then rage afterwards, but then if any party members need healing, my PC will be unable to assist.
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you can change the cleric levels to oracle levels, Rage prophet becomes an option.
That said, this kind of GM hamfisting of player options is always a red flag of a bad game. IF the reason for it is "you must be a barbarian tribe member" then it may be time to mention that class is not role. You do not need to have "Barbarian" on your character sheet to be a barbarian.
You may just want to walk.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree with Turin the Mad. Current build info would help greatly.
As I put in your other thread, the moment of clarity rage power would allow you to cast 1/rage.
You can retool your cleric levels, but do you want to? If the answer is yes, I heavily suggest a cleric of Gorum. Take things like the war domain and go full on battle-cleric. Here is a high-level cleric of Gorum that may give you some inspiration.
Also, nothing is stopping you from just ending your rage if you need to. If you're raging and then a party member goes down, simply end your rage and go help them. Yes you will suffer fatigue penalties and can't rage until you get rid of the fatigue (tip: pretty easy as a cleric), but it doesn't mean you can't cast. Or just use moment of clarity.
Interesting. Ability scores and current gear (if any) would be helpful. If the character is being made from scratch, then you're merely working the barbarian levels into your background.
Are there any limitations on source materials, i.e. are 3rd party publishers' materials permitted?
I can use 3rd party materials if the DM allows it. He is pretty open. My PC's stats are 16 str, 12 dex, 15 con, 10 int 16 Wis 13 cha. I have 108,000gp to spend on gear.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Channel Positive Energy shouldn't be much of a problem as a (su) ability, one hopes. ;)
Recommend viewing your rage and rage powers as your fall-back option, what you unleash when things are getting really bad. Given how many bases your ability scores have to cover (pretty much all of them), this is definitely a challenging character to put together.
In-combat healing doesn't suffer much inefficiency from the missing caster levels (unlike offensive casting), and you theoretically have access to breath of life and raise dead, so most of the essential 'healing' bases are covered just fine at 9th Cleric.
Depending on what domains you select and any emphasis on channel energy determines more of your combat healing than many of your spells will.
Clerics do gain access to some of the best non-polymorph buffs in the game, several of which affect all or almost all of your allies with a single casting: bless, prayer etc. Your personal combat buffs get positively nasty if you prepare a Quicken divine favor, for one example.
I can use 3rd party materials if the DM allows it. He is pretty open. My PC's stats are 16 str, 12 dex, 15 con, 10 int 16 Wis 13 cha. I have 108,000gp to spend on gear.Interesting. Ability scores and current gear (if any) would be helpful. If the character is being made from scratch, then you're merely working the barbarian levels into your background.
Are there any limitations on source materials, i.e. are 3rd party publishers' materials permitted?
Nice. Race is?
Nice. Race is?I can use 3rd party materials if the DM allows it. He is pretty open. My PC's stats are 16 str, 12 dex, 15 con, 10 int 16 Wis 13 cha. I have 108,000gp to spend on gear.Interesting. Ability scores and current gear (if any) would be helpful. If the character is being made from scratch, then you're merely working the barbarian levels into your background.
Are there any limitations on source materials, i.e. are 3rd party publishers' materials permitted?
Human
|
With those stats, you're looking all right to move into melee, and if you want to focus a bit more on buffing, you can always grab moment of clarity so that you can spellcast in combat, and then pick up antagonize or a similar spell and have the enemies run at you - 3 levels of barb gets you some extra hp on top of rage abilities, and you can melee hard enough to be a threat.
Also, I could be wrong on this, but it doesn't seem like there's anything saying you can't channel while raging. It doesn't require a concentration check, or anything, but it's been a while since I played a cleric so I can't be sure, so if you pick up alignment channel+channel smite you can seriously bring the hurt on an evil person, or whatever common alignment you fight against.
You're probably not going to lose much as a healer, especially if you can help stop the hate on all of your party-mates. 2d6 isn't going to make or break a clutch heal at this level, and you can easily grab higher-level scrolls if you really have to. Losing out on miracle & 9th level spells is going to hurt a bit, but that's only if you're going to late-game.
Nice. Race is?I can use 3rd party materials if the DM allows it. He is pretty open. My PC's stats are 16 str, 12 dex, 15 con, 10 int 16 Wis 13 cha. I have 108,000gp to spend on gear.Interesting. Ability scores and current gear (if any) would be helpful. If the character is being made from scratch, then you're merely working the barbarian levels into your background.
Are there any limitations on source materials, i.e. are 3rd party publishers' materials permitted?
A Quickened Divine Favor... you're a genius. I knew coming to message boards would be a good idea. Thanks!
If you take the Rage SubDomain(of Destruction) it would stack rounds you can rage, so not 3 rounds, 12 (depends on if possible for your deity?) And Travel Domain for even more movement?
Otherwise a possible swap to Oracle so you can take any remaining levels as Rage Prophet?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Human, Alignment: CN, Classes: Cleric Of Gorum 6/Invulnerable Rager (Barbarian) 3
Initiative: +1 ,Senses: Perception +3* [*No Ranks in perception so could change]
AC: 16 Touch: 11 Flat: 15 (Scale Mail +5, Dex +1)
HD:3d12+6d8+18 (72HP)
Fortitude: +10 Reflex: +4 Will: +9
SQ: Aura, Channel Negative Energy 3d6 (Will DC 16-Half) 6/Dy, DR 1/-,Domains(Destruction, Strength), Extreme Endurance (Fire Resistance 1), Fast Movement, Orisons,
Rage (10 Rounds), Rage Power (No Escape),*Destructive Smite (su) 6/Dy,*Strength Surge (Sp) 6/Dy
Melee: GreatSword +10/+5 (2d6+5/19-20 S)
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 13
BA +7/+2, CMB +10 CMD 21
Feats
Improved Channel, Channel Smite, Extra Channel, Eclectic(Barbarian)[APG], Reach Spell [APG], Versatile Channeler [UM]
Skills
(33 Skill ranks)
[Extra HP Or Skill Points are up too Choice still, and thanks to Eclectic feat you get bonus skill or HP per Cleric OR Barbarian Level]
Not counting towards gear this build let's you use the Channel Negative energy as additional damage to Living enemies, Although if you expect to face Unliving ones
Changing it to Positive Energy, but with Versatile Channeler it changes to 2d6 of the Opposite energy.
As the healer just memorize the healing spells and for combat remember to use Reach Inflict Spells for Ranged Attacks and when the enemy moves in to attack you, Rage with the
Great Sword while smiting with Negative energy through it.
As for gear I'm sure alot of fun can be had with a Great Sword enchanted to be a Holy Symbol.
Since the Charisma is low Selective Channel is a wash for the character without items to increase the CHA since you can only pick one target per Cha Bonus to ignore. So Channel Smite would be the friend here, might want to swap DEX & CHA with this build and to enhance AC take Dodge Later on. But have never thought of this combo of classes before. Makes for an interesting Combat Cleric.
I don't think GMs should dictate builds that way. It's not fun when someone else controls your character.
Just stress Rednal's point here. Your DM controls everything else about the game...setting, npcs, what options are available, treasure, and even what adventures you are doing (barring a true sandbox campaign). If taking 3 levels of class [x] is something you really don't want to do, please tell him so (and have that player to DM talk;-). The game is for your enjoyment as well and the DM's role ends at your sheet and what your PC does because they control everything else.
If it is a challenge that you've accepted and think you will enjoy carry on. Otherwise see above.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Could you try for Bloodrager instead of Barbarian? Bloodrager gets some pretty nice things across the same levels, and is easier to qualify for Mad Magic.
For reference, the Mad Magic feat lets you cast cleric spells while raging.
Say no!
If your cleric is already somewhat capable in melee combat (rather than an archer cleric or one with a spell/channeling focus), then there isn't much that needs to change:
1) As your first barbarian rage power (2nd level), take Moment of Clarity. This gives you the option of casting a spell while raging; this is a critical component of multiclassing barbarian with any casting class, IMO. If there is another rage power that fits the character well/you really want, spend a feat on Extra Rage Power to select it.
2) Start using wands of cure light wounds, etc. (possibly created by the character, if they have the Craft Wands feat) to heal the party in between fights, not during. In-combat healing is often a poor use of actions (rather than buffing, controlling the battlefield, debuffing, or doing damage), extending the fight rather than ending it more quickly (by taking out the enemy as fast as possible). "Heal-bots" are seldom a "necessity" for parties that play smart, so being a "sub-par healer" is not a major hindrance as long as the bases for replenishing hp, curing ability damage/drain, and removing status effects are covered.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Be Lawful and unable to Rage. Ask your DM what alternatives you have then.
==Aelryinth
Really nice attributes.
Occult Adventures added a Furious Spell meta-magic feat. This would allow you to have spells prepared that you can cast while raging.
You are probably going to want Raging Vitality or an Unchained Barbarian in order to prevent death by rage ending.
I agree with others, it would be nice to know why Barbarian.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't get it, why is he making you do it? To challenge you? I'm having trouble picturing that conversation.
Did he really say "your next 3 levels have to be barbarian, and that's final" and you didn't question why after that?
Might be worth making that short story long for this one.
No, it wouldn't. The player has decided to stay and play and is asking for build advice. Elucidating the conversation would only further entice people to offer non-solicited advice for the OP to dump the game and that point is moot.
The design challenge if nothing else makes things interesting.
What about an Urban Barbarian? Rage-n-cast. ;)
Since you are already un-optimized, I say go all out and focus on prestiege classes. After all, you are already down from 5th level spells to 3rd level if you go 3/6 Barb/Cleric so you might as well try to make the most from your class by ditching it completely and using it just as a pre-requisite.
I would suggest one of the following:
Evangalest is an excellent class, you'd get 3 Barbarian Levels, 3 Cleric Levels, 3 Evangelest Levels, and then 2 more levels of cleric abilities from being an Evangelest. Not bad all things considered, would have to slog through the Archive of Neythes to pick out a decent god whom you could be devoted to, but it would work.
or
Holy Vindicator still gives you Divine Magic progression in addition to some nasty powerful physical attacks. You could be a Barb 3, Cleric 2, Vindicator 4 which be pretty powerful. You gain channel energy as a Cleric that stacks with being a cleric. Stigmata is powerful and the bleeding isn't too bad if you take advantage of Rage and a pickable +2 bonus to one of a variety of stats is nothing to sneeze at. Empowered cures and Dooming opponents is nothing to sneeze at either.
PS: Consider going for...what do you call it, variable Multiclassing. If you don't care about feats give them the boot and pick up useful class abilities instead.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is bad GMing. A GM should never force a player to change their character build. This is not a challenge, it is just abuse.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
OP seems to be rolling with it, let's help the OP do so.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The OP seems to agree the DM challenge. Honestly Barbarian is rarely a bad dip for melee classes. So this is hardly a horrible thing. As a DM I have created rules for players coming in to fit a storyline. So this may not be a bad thing.
I would ask for a rage power that lets you cast while raging. Then deck out quickened buffs and buff yourself and then full round aattack
My first question is, "how much leeway do you have with your Cleric and Barbarian class levels, in terms on Archetypes?"
Most of my characters 'build against type', and are multi-classed, so here are some of the things to look for:
1. DEFENSE/Granted armor and shield proficiencies: Cleric and Barbarians both get Medium armor and shield. Can you build defense around that? Can you take a Cleric Archetype that strengthens offense if favor of reduced armor proficiencies, which your Barbarian levels will offset, as you will gain those proficiencies back? Can you take levels of a Cleric or Barb. Archetype which grant increased proficiencies (Crusader? Armored Hulk?)
The most advantageous aspect here is that Divine Casters are not hampered in their spellcasting or Domain abilities by using Heavy armor. Heavy shields are problematic at times as they prohibit the use of a free hand for somatic components, or presenting a Holy Symbol to Channel Energy.
2. DEFENSE: Saving Throws/DR/SR, etc. : The other things you can be targeted by.
Multiclassing often results in imbalanced Saving Throws; as a Cleric/Barb., you will have a high Fort save, a much better Will save than a normal Barb., and an absolute crap Reflex save. Shoring up your character's weak points can be as important as capitalizing on your strengths. The good news is that failed Reflex saves usually only result in HP damage, and not debilitating status effects.
3. OFFENSE: What is your weapon style? Feats?
The Good News: This is totally doable. Rage is the signature Barb. ability, which normally interferes with casting, vis a vis, "While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."
This means casting Cleric Spells while Raging is OUT, completely. Even a Quickened spell requires Concentration. What is left are Channel Energy and Domain abilities, which can be quite powerful.
My advice, since you are primarily a Cleric, with Barb. levels, is to focus on being a support build that acts as a second level of defense, and can frontline when necessary. Strength, Travel, War, and other Domains have excellent abilities which can be used while Raging.
Consider the Armored Hulk archetype.
Read the excellent Guide to the Reach Cleric, and build upon that. You have good stats for out-of-combat buffing and support; in combat, focus on Domain Abilities and Channel Energy, judicious use of support spells, and pick up Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, and a Reach weapon.
For your stat boost items, buy a STR belt and a mixed WIS/CHA headband; pick up Extra Channel as a feat, and buy +2 Full Plate. Use Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment to boost your weapon and armor +'s; shore up your defenses where possible with items, and decide how much offense you're really going to try to be doing. Sometimes just pointing a pointy thing in the right place and holding the line while other people smash things is enough.
*Note that there is some ambiguity about the use of SLA's versus supernatural abilities while Raging; SU's seem to be clear, while SLA's may encounter some table variation.
Here's a sample build idea:
A Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser-type, carousing, hard-living Battle Cleric of Cayden Cailean.
Human Cleric 9(Devout Pilgrim)/Barb (Armored Hulk)3
Domains: Travel, Strength
Feats: Weapon Focus (Guisarme), Extra Channel, Combat Casting, Power Attack, Sacred Summons, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative
Move 35'/rd in Heavy armor, 45' with Domain ability. Can use your Domain ability on allies as a Standard. Teleport yourself or others around the battlefield, or through/around obstacles. Boost your own or other's Strength or movement, channel, or cast (including Summon as a standar action) and move during your turn, and attack using AoO's with Reach Weapon when it's not.
|
I wouldn't normally suggest this, but here we go:
Barbarian(take archetype Wild Rager, it will give you an extra attack and as you won't be going more than 3 levels of barbarian most likely you should be able to make the save no problem.
For cleric I would suggest taking the rage domain because as far as I can tell with the FAQ your levels for rage powers should stack with cleric levels(1/2 not full) so that will get you more value from the rage powers your receive overall.
I can use 3rd party materials if the DM allows it. He is pretty open. My PC's stats are 16 str, 12 dex, 15 con, 10 int 16 Wis 13 cha. I have 108,000gp to spend on gear.Interesting. Ability scores and current gear (if any) would be helpful. If the character is being made from scratch, then you're merely working the barbarian levels into your background.
Are there any limitations on source materials, i.e. are 3rd party publishers' materials permitted?
You might want to consider getting some Celestial Armor (22,400 gp) or Celestial Plate Armor (25,000gp), if you're worried about dying; they're pricey armors, but very effective (and you can fly once per day as a bonus).
Here's a link to the Plate armor description.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/celest ial-plate-armor
|
|
I still don't know why you have to take levels in barbarian . . . I mean . . . . I just don't get it.
If you are looking for something though, there is a new metamagic feat 'furious spell' which lets you cast spells when in a barbarian rage. Get yourself a metamagic wand of it and you can still cast (at least three times/day) while raged.
I would also suggest picking up the 'additional traits' feat, which would let you pick up magical knack (cleric) This increases your caster level by 2 for all cleric spells (up to your total class levels). While it doesn't give you extra spells, it does effect things like your ability to penetrate SR, things that are calculated as x/level, and concentration checks.
I still don't know why you have to take levels in barbarian . . . I mean . . . . I just don't get it.
If you are looking for something though, there is a new metamagic feat 'furious spell' which lets you cast spells when in a barbarian rage. Get yourself a metamagic wand of it and you can still cast (at least three times/day) while raged.
I would also suggest picking up the 'additional traits' feat, which would let you pick up magical knack (cleric) This increases your caster level by 2 for all cleric spells (up to your total class levels). While it doesn't give you extra spells, it does effect things like your ability to penetrate SR, things that are calculated as x/level, and concentration checks.
Both are good advice.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Might be worth making that short story long for this one.No, it wouldn't. The player has decided to stay and play and is asking for build advice. Elucidating the conversation would only further entice people to offer non-solicited advice for the OP to dump the game and that point is moot.
The player is being forced into it. To suggest that this very strange request shouldn't be questioned at all and only build advice should be offered is a very submissive approach.
The GM might have a very good reason or it might be toxic - we have no idea and there's nothing to suggest either way. Either way, people are already suggesting they should dump the game and we have no idea if that is a bad suggestion or not.
The design challenge if nothing else makes things interesting.
What about an Urban Barbarian? Rage-n-cast. ;)
Only if you use Moment of Clarity or the metamagic feat Furious Spell. Controlled Rage still prevents spell casting.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dorkis is requesting build advice, not "GM is being bad, mmmkay?" commentary from the peanut gallery.
Pretty sure that Dorkis already figured the latter part out all on their own before posting.
Human, 16 Str, 12 Dex, 15 Con, 10 Int, 16 Wis, 13 Cha, Barbarian 3rd/Cleric 9th, 108k gp gear budget.
Excellent advice has already been given, it's just a matter of sorting out what's the most appealing to play.
Good luck, Dorkis!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Might be worth making that short story long for this one.No, it wouldn't. The player has decided to stay and play and is asking for build advice. Elucidating the conversation would only further entice people to offer non-solicited advice for the OP to dump the game and that point is moot.The player is being forced into it. To suggest that this very strange request shouldn't be questioned at all and only build advice should be offered is a very submissive approach.
The GM might have a very good reason or it might be toxic - we have no idea and there's nothing to suggest either way. Either way, people are already suggesting they should dump the game and we have no idea if that is a bad suggestion or not.
(1) I disagree with your presumed premise that submissive is inherently worse than not-submissive.
(2) I disagree that choosing to not object is submissive
(3) Neither of the latter are important because the OP didn't ask for advice about the social interaction with the DM. The OP asked about build advice for the character.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does it have to be barbarian? A Skald would get you Ragin Song and allow you to grant inspired rage to the rest of the party. Talk to him and see if that is an option. As a cleric you probably have the CHA so you will get a few low level spells out of it.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
