I am not sure what to say, other then to ask your players why they want to just by pass the dungeon. Also, could you tell use more about your players and yourself.
Honestly "dig through walls to the end of the dungeon" sounds like misery. I've never seen a group with such a negative attitude towards a dungeon. Dungeon crawls are my favorite part.
What is the party made up of?
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Seems like the players not really engaged in the dungeon. Why are here? Do they have a reason or is it just a string of fights? Given them a purpose...maybe it is a test, maybe they learn to hate the dungeon keeper as he toys with them. My guess is they are bored and hence want to do something else. Give them a reason they accept then they will be more engaged. Also let them do what they want...so you want to tunnel out...well anyone got profession miner or knowledge engineering? What about tools? Never stop them from doing things...but remember everything comes at cost. :)
Dungeon crawls are my favorite part.
Clearly, they aren't the favorite part of your players. Maybe they like more wilderness exploration, or social interaction with NPCs, or urban settings, or whatever. So there's not a lot of things you can do here, except maybe finding another group, or talking to your players and find a compromise, where they focus in the dungeon while they are there, and you try to give them plenty of other non-dungeon things to do.
Don't want to sound confrontational, but several of the things you have explained to me, probably will not make me happy as a player either. Not being able to leave the dungeon sounds pretty rail-roady to me. And "have an interesting Dungeon keeper" has some vibe on it that makes it sound like if you are playing the Dungeon Keeper role.
So, for the sake of fairness, If I were you I would try to breath deeply, remove myself from the picture a bit, and try to fairly address if it's possible that it's me the one who is being a pain in the ass, and I'm angry with my players because they don't bend to my will.
"ughh why can't I just dig through the walls to the end of the dungeon"
Your players are new to RPGs right?
There are just so many ways this could go wrong i wont even begin to list them.
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If your players are new to RPGs, then are you sure that they actually want to play? This may be a case where they lack maturity, patients, or general interest. Heck, they may simply feel pressured to "try this whole RPG thing," that is what you want to do. Now, this does not necessarily mean that you are doomed. If this is the case, then I would start by just running them through some encounters to ease them in. And always be open to the idea that you may need to simply find a different group to play with.
If the have a pickaxe then let them dig and have it collapse on them if they don't have profession minor, or knowledge architecture.
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As a GM, I would ask the players what type of game they want to play before the campaign, and what type of PCs they wished to play. When you got to know them better and their playstyle, then don't bother to ask
Basically, you design the encounters around the player's abilities, but the campaign around concepts
If they make choices that lead to CHA based situations then throw more role play options in. If no race has darkvision, no subterranean combat. If they want two rogues, more traps. The encounters should focus on one or two players abilities.
I also agree that a 1st level dungeon crawl should not be "no exit" no smart person camps in a dungeon by choice, and a low level party just doesn't have the resources to survive much more than 3 encounters
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No game survives an encounter with PCs fully intact. General DM/GM wisdom, there.
That being said, though, you do have a bit of a situation to handle. The greatest difficulty you have here is that you've cut off the group from the most reasonable source of necessary reprieve for the party -- town. Not being able to fall back and regroup is oftentimes fatal for a 1st-level party; an active dungeon from which there is no escape until the "boss" is "dead" *should* kill a group so inexperienced. There are ways to build in elements to offset that difficulty, but they will only feel gimmicky. Does the party have a "safe place" in which to rest and recharge? Have they found any loot that is obviously helpful (poitions, scrolls, etc.), or dungeon specific (blue keycards for blue doors in the old Doom FPS game, for instance)? Is there a fountain that grants healing in the vicinity, or a shrine that recharges spells/dailies?
Another factor to consider here is one of resource management: traps are attrition-based effects that drain resources from the party without truly giving them any sense of accomplishment. Getting to a door while burning through spells and per-day effects is reasonably challenging, but if they've dropped their best abilities to get *to* that fight, they won't be able to handle that fight, no matter how level-appropriate. Traps grind a dungeon grind to dust, even if they're perfectly suited to the environment.
It's on you as the GM/DM to keep the action moving -- and in a dungeon, a party needs clear, attainable goals to help motivate them. Surviving a crucible just because it's a crucible is not rewarding: it's too much like everyday life. What story hooks brought the group to this dungeon? Do any of the characters have personal reasons to go after particular denizens of the dungeon? To what do the characters/players have to look forward after they finish this quest?
I don't know to what you're referring when you mention "they'll try to abuse it" -- what could you put in that could be abused?
And you could certainly put a pile of hammers and chisels in a room and let them go to town tunneling through the walls. Trouble is, that takes a LONG time to do, even if you fast-forward the game world clock.
Railroading sometimes seems the only way to make sure the players appreciate the work you've put into an adventure, but it's a sure-fire way to kill a game -- I've done it too many times not to know. I strongly suggest that you enable the group to take matters into their own hands to get to the end of this dungeon, whether it's with a quick fight that drops the Master Key to the last doorway or that pile of hammers and chisels.
I have learned to use a "sandbox" approach to running a game -- I try to prepare multiple game elements for my players to engage, and have a few ideas I can flesh out on the fly. That way you can give the players more of what they want; that's a better way to keep things interesting.
When it comes to storytelling, I try to emulate the characteristics of Jim Butcher's Dresden Files stories -- the books may have "dungeon crawl" elements, but they aren't the whole book. And never forget the benefit of an in-game deadline -- the group may only have two days (or two *hours*) to thwart the sinister plan. Give them reasons to press forward, and solid benefits for doing so, and they'll get to the end of whatever you've got.
I'd love to hear how you adjust things!
If your players are new to RPGs, then are you sure that they actually want to play? This may be a case where they lack maturity, patients, or general interest. Heck, they may simply feel pressured to "try this whole RPG thing," that is what you want to do. Now, this does not necessarily mean that you are doomed. If this is the case, then I would start by just running them through some encounters to ease them in. And always be open to the idea that you may need to simply find a different group to play with.
or maybe it's just that the dungeon with "plenty of traps and encounters" is too challenging and too hurtful for the PC.
I remember wanting to get out of a dungeon once, 20 years ago. I already had a couple of years of experience in RPG, so I was not a complete newbie. The GM liked to "play against the PCs", like if RPGs were some sort of huge HeroQuest and the GM were another player who tries to "win" or something. He was what I now, more experienced, call a "confrontational GM". That GM filled the dungeon with traps and ambushing encounters. A trap in every corridor, every corner, every door. We were hit once and again by traps, surprise encounters, and assaults. Everything was a remainder of "I could kill you all right now if I wanted, but I just want you to suffer pain and shame". We thought "why are we here? This place is hell. There's no way we can get profit this raid, and there's no real point to pass this huge gauntlet of problems. Let's go back". The GM answered saying that "the tide has risen, and you are now trapped in the dungeon, you have to go forward". It was one of the few times that I really wanted to leave the game, and stop playing.
I agree that it's very odd that the dungeon is entirely impossible to leave.
Every wall and door is unbreakable?
They sealed shut behind the party?
There was a tunnel collapse?
If you did all that to ensure the party wouldn't leave a dungeon they dislike playing in... then I kind of see why they're angry.
Give the players and their PCs a reason why they want to be there. You can't just railroad them into going into a dungeon and expect them to be happy about it.
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And part way through (although I have given them a free revive) they start complaining that "ughh why can't I just dig through the walls to the end of the dungeon" or "I want to leave the dungeon why can't I"
You call THAT being a pain in the ass? Believe me, I've seen players being MUCH MORE of a pain in the ass than that!
It sounds like your players just aren't engaged w/ this scenario. No worries. Let them out. Find a loophole in your 'inescapable deathtrap' scenario, some secret door or mechanism or plot device they had previously missed, and open the door. Let them go head back to town, restock and recover, learn a bit more of the dungeon's backstory, maybe even go up a level.
That dungeon will always be there when they're ready.
I agree that it's very odd that the dungeon is entirely impossible to leave.
Every wall and door is unbreakable?
They sealed shut behind the party?
There was a tunnel collapse?
If you did all that to ensure the party wouldn't leave a dungeon they dislike playing in... then I kind of see why they're angry.
Well, not that hard. The OP specified the game is for lvl 1 players, so just think Indiana Jones but intead of the rock boulder crashing down on Indie immagine the dungeon's only entrance (that the players know of) slamming shut once they all enter the dungeon. A 50 ton slab of magically reinforced rock sealing the players inside the dungeon and then the torches on the entrance corridor lighting themselves of an eerie green light... Welcome dear adventurers, there's no going back for you now... you can only march forward and meet your DOOOOOOOM... (cue evil laugh in the background)
That said, dungeon crawls being pretty standard "go murderhobo on everything you meet and steal his/hers/its stuff asap" kind of experiences, are not for everyone. Talk to the players and if they want to do something more complex go for it. And if you find out they just like being contrary... well make sure they get out of the dungeon (one way or another).
They ignored me and built characters who wanted to explore the open world.
Sounds like you need build an adventure around what your players want, since they don't seem to care what you want. Either that or stop GMing for players like that.
I'd also note that a "free revive" can kill all tension for some types of player.
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One time we were in a magical maze that would change itself behind us, and the only way through WAS to dig through the walls.
I was drunk when I posted this, for that I apologize for anything I left out. I have resolved the problem with my players to a degree.
As for what I left out.
They went into the game knowing the world for adventurers would be based around wanting to go into dungeons. And knowing that until they are complete they are locked in. They well knew that the game was going to be difficult.The walls of the dungeon are breakable theoretically. But breaking out of the borders would not be.
It all had to do with plot they'd begin to fall into as they advanced.
The problem was essentially that even with my reminders leading up to the session to build characters whod want to enter. They ignored me and built characters who wanted to explore the open world. And complained once they were locked in.
Anyway thank you everyone for your responses. A lot of it helped me work things through with my players
You created the game you wanted to play/run. Not the one your characters were interested in playing sadly. Way too often as GMs we can get swept up in all these "cool ideas" just to have them completely fall flat and die at the table as no one else was interested in what we wanted to create.
You should always ask the players what they want.
You stated it was for level one characters? Learn their playstyle and adjust.
Don't be 'THAT' GM.
You are running the game for THEM, they aren't playing the game for YOU.
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What is the PC's motivation for being in the dungeon? It sounds like they have none.
I disagree with the people telling you to run the game they want to play. You are the one putting extra hours designing the adventure. Run the type of adventure you want to run.
That said, RPGs like Pathfinder are supposed to be a shared storytelling experience. If your players are not enjoying the game, then something has to change. Either get new players or meet them half way.
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This game is a shared experience. While on the boards there is such a high demand for GMs you can basically run any game you want and easily find interested players, IRL you should talk with your players beforehand about expectations for the campaign.
Instead of telling your players "This is the game I am going to run. Build characters accordingly.", take a different tact. Sit down with them and brainstorm with them on what they want in a game. Keep your ego out of it. It's about telling a story. Yes, you should be able to run the game you want, but they need to get something out of it. If it is all about what you want, and they don't like it, you're going to lose your players.
It looks to me like you're showcasing your dungeon and campaign world without really getting the characters interested in it. The whole issue here is their engagement, or lack of it. You can fix that. Especially since this is a 1st level game. Their characters are brand new, so they've probably got a lot of their backgrounds left vague. You can work with that.
How about in one of these paintings, the great hero of an ancient battle in one scene happens to look just like one of the PCs? Now the PC is tied into the game world, without really understanding why. And maybe other people see the resemblance. Members of races with long lifespans might actually have met the hero and comment on the resemblance.
You say your dungeon keeper is "interesting" but the players don't know that, even if you tell them. Have them find scraps of his journal or other memorabilia around. Get them to know who they're up against. Tie him to one or more of the other PCs through family history or some other link. Maybe he lured that PC to the dungeon to get revenge on the PC's close relative.
An even better link is for them to make up part of your campaign world for you. And you can put a painting of that into the dungeon. Now it's part their world, too. Tell them they see a painting, and then just have one player improv what historical scene it depicts. Give a reward (a chip to redeem for a reroll, or something) for creativity.
My point is, you can showcase your world, your dungeon, and your bad guys all you want, but unless you give them a link to it, they're just walking into unrelated encounters.
Try a change of pace for awhile. Open up the world a bit for the PCs and let them travel where they like and do what they like. Take cues from them and see what they are interested in. It takes time to build chemsitry and trust.
I find lots off people put time in the dungeon but not the story. My most memorable adventures isn't beating up things or doing the damage its the story. Might be the same with your players
I dunno, the players were warned ahead of time what kind of campaign this was going to be and they ignored the OP, and now they're whining about it. Sounds like the players are the problem. If they didn't want to go dungeon crawling than they shouldn't have wasted the OP's time by joining his game and letting him go ahead and do all that prep work. OP, your group really sucks I'm sorry to say.
I don't think there is a good way to handle this kind of disconnect, either change your campaign entirely to suit your players, or drop the players and try to run this campaign with a different set of players.
Allow them to try digging through the walls...but then wandering monsters appear.
Allow them to leave the dungeon, but their mounts or whatever they used to reach the dungeon are gone and there isn't a town for miles. If they decide to hoof it to town anyways, the town has been ransacked no living survivors. But plant very obvious evidence that leads back into original dungeon anyways. (Maybe a big statue has been placed in the town and the statue is of a person who was in a painting found in the dungeon that was very elaborated displayed and adorned.)
Now, if the players decide that they simply aren't interested in figuring out what happened to the town and why and refuse to enter the dungeon...well you tried. At that point your players are kind of being jerks who don't understand that at a certain point you have to follow the GMs plot strings because otherwise you just can't plan out anything meaningful or fun. You can only get so big before you get to total sandbox, and sandbox adventures are very hard to run. Especially for a group. Imagine playing Fallout with a group of PCs. There is a ton of stuff to see and do, and no one really ever agrees on it. Or you get overwhelmed by options. Short of a sandbox though, you need some level of railroading.
Sure you could make a string of just random encounter after random encounter is random places that are just haphazardly strung together with no meaningful or believable flow between them. But you shouldn't
And if the players can't roll with this, then maybe you should find new players.
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A game session where the PCs tunnel unexpectedly through a wall and discover something interesting as a result is usually good game session. It gives the players a sense of agency.
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As a person that loves the demolition phase of working construction, I can say with knowledge that smashing thru multiple walls with pick axes is both time consuming and a blast, I say let them see what happens.
A game session where the PCs tunnel unexpectedly through a wall and discover something interesting as a result is usually good game session. It gives the players a sense of agency.
Like a mass grave. Of the townspeople. From the destroyed nearby city.
If you want to motivate players to go through the dungeon you just have to invent a few things that will make them want to figure out what the heck is going on.
If I started tunneling through a dungeon wall and found a bunch of skeletons (not the creatures) I would be worried and confused. If I returned to town and found it vacant I would be very motivated to find out where the towns people went. When I find a statue in the middle of town depicting the eccentric builder of the dungeon who's picture was framed in foyer of the dungeon paints a target on/in the dungeon that must be solved.
That'll tell you to vent inebriated Karno /s. I think the community gave good feedback though of getting your players invested. Its the silly little things that players latch onto that they may value most out of your campaign. I've encouraged it, and hell, I've emotionally destroyed their characters sometimes for the sake of immersion, and damn did it feel good when they earned their happy endings. Seeing the light die in a Player's eyes... Mm-mm-good! Seeing them subsequently go berserk on the antagonist in a Big Damn Heroes moment... just as delicious; Black Forest versus Cheesecake -both awesome.
I am mechanical myself and understand if you got offended that they didn't appreciate this work of yours, but yeah, nothing survives intact against players as stated earlier in the thread. Most players have a limit to the structure imposed on them, and it's a balance between Sandbox and Railroading sometimes just to keep the Fun/Campaign going. I learned to be very off-the-cuff, reactive, and hell, Hollywood sometimes, but every DM has their style. I do not know what I would have done sometimes without the stack of hardbacks and googling the SRDs.
Bind them to this Dungeon of yours somehow asides coercion and then being disappointed when they recoil. Something to personally protect, something more tangible to achieve than solving the puzzle or whatever end state you have in mind involving your Dungeon Keeper. DMNPCs do not have to be these uber-constructs that are meant to survive Player shenanigans, but sort of their primary contact with your world, an ambassador so to speak.
Also, why all this hoo-hah about Tunneling? It's creative and literally out-of-the-box thinking that I thought adventurers were supposed to do? If they do not want to go boldly into that meat-grinder, then kudos if they find a way that does not involve skipping the dungeon entirely. if we were to apply logic to this, most dungeons don't make sense and would be incredible morasses of waste by the denizens. Where are the latrines... the kitchens... the sleeping facilities... how many outlets do they have in case someone floods/gasses the facility? Which Interior Decorating dropout failed with this much hallspace or the crooked Civil Engineer that allowed this hazardous work environment to happen? Et cetera...
One reason I always add one npc to the party is so I have a vested interest in it being fun.
If you created the dungeon then it's an alpha test. Ask them what went wrong. Offer to shut it down and let the others GM for a while. There's a good chance they won't want to toss their characters advancement so far. If they do, too many sticks, not enough carrots.
The Cleaves is made by anyone interested. Two of the rooms are actual towns. There is a way out in every deck. There are sources of healing and raising. Even with all this, when I run the playtest, I may have to throw out or modify cards.
Unfortunately, this sort of situation happens some times. I would curtail the dungeon, then ask everyone what they want out of the role playing experience. More role playing? World exploration? More story line?
You aren't going to get what you want (appreciation, acknowledgement, player enjoyment) out of this scenario. Forcing them to appreciate your dungeon usually has the opposite effect.