Unfortunately after further consideration I've decided on a different character, but had I continued with this, Frostbite was definitely the new spell of choice. This idea will just have to wait.
So my play group recently had a little run with 5e, and while we liked it, we are coming back to Pathfinder for our next campaigns. Since I'm known as being the guy who optimizes too much, I figure I'll use a class I like a lot, and deliberately not use one of their strengths. In this case: the Magus, and Spell Combat.
So the idea is to likely play as a Kensai Magus and use probably a Nodachi, and focus on Shocking Grasp Spellstrikes with it. Since it's a 2h weapon I can't Spell Combat, and get that action economy, but I'm hoping the Spellstriked nodachi will be sufficient damage despite this.
One worry is playing a Kensai STR build has me quite weak with regards to AC since I'll probably have a poor DEX, so my survivability will be down quite a bit, but am I nerfing myself way too much to be effective, or could this possibly work? Thoughts?
Let me get this straight: You want to give casters martial proficiency? Do you want to expand the Caster/Martial Disparity even more or something?
Anyway if you want the proficiency, dip Fighter. That's the simplest option. It's how just about all Wizards get into Eldritch Knight typically anyway.
All martials get free Power Attack, Weapon Focus and EWP at level 1. Sounds like a solid houserule.
We are playing giantslayer which is why i want to go with this. All those large weapons the are dropped are useless in terms of normal uses so i wanted to make use of them. I want to go tower shield specialist fighter and use 1 handed large weapons, or maybe just a vanilla fighter..... but the main goal is sword and board. The DM does not allow dual archetyping in the same class or else i would just go that route.
Your DM doesn't allow you to take multiple archetypes that should normally stack? Stupid.
Anyway as I mentioned earlier, go with a Large Bastard Sword, pick up EWP and you can use it 1h.
It can be interpreted as in it allows you to use a large sized 2h weapon in 2 hands, or that it allows you to use a large 1h weapon in one hand.
Personal recommendation. Get a Large Bastard Sword. You can use it one handed even if it's large if you have the proficiency, or just use it 2h. He can't BS you on that.
Ohhh, I did not know that... Hmm... I can even fit Blind Fight in now, this is great, thanks.
I am taking Advanced Weapon Training, though I was going for Defensive Weapon Training to get +3 AC. I was also doing Advanced Armor Training and taking either Armored Juggernaut for DR 2/- or Armor Specialization for +2 AC. The DR is probably more useful, but I like the idea of 38 AC.
Have you thought of using an unchained monk.
I thought about it, but I'm too married to the two-bladed sword, even if it less-optimal than I'd like.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Well that's where Accomplished Sneak Attacker comes in. I'll agree that having some kind of backup like Feinting would be ideal, but I only have so many feats.
I think I'm pretty happy with the Rogue/Fighter build for the moment. Had to lose Offensive Defense when I noticed UnRogues don't actually get it. Terrain Mastery is an odd pick, but it fits with Horizon Walker. Endurance is getting retrained since I'm buying a scarlet and green cabochon ioun stone for Endurance.
1 Fighter 1 Iron Will, Endurance(Retrained into Outflank), TWF
You could always just go Rogue 4/ Fighter 9/ Horizon Walker 3. +4 from Weapon Training and gloves, 2d6/3d6 Sneak Attack/ Accomplished Sneak Attacker, and up to 7 bonus combat feats if you include the Weapon Training and Combat Trick Rogue Talents. Archetypes for a few more assorted goods if desired, Fighter feats for more combat buffs. If you can use the Weapon Master's Handbook, you can even make the Double Bladed Sword into a finesse weapon with Fighter's Finesse and then apply Trained Grace to it for double your Weapon Training bonus, though strength-based works just fine anyhow.
I think we are finally on to something here. I'm building this up and I think this actually works. Sadly none of the archetypes seem to be helping though. Also my AC is significantly higher now thanks to Defensive Weapon Training and replacing Dodge with Extra Rogue Talent for Offensive Defense, giving me a 39 AC after I sneak attack thanks to Accomplished Sneak Attacker. Sadly I lose the extra attack from 16 BAB though.
With this Rogue/Fighter build I end up with:
With the Slayer(with Accomplished Sneak Attacker)
I'm still leaning Slayer for the extra attack and skill points, but all that extra AC I can get with Rogue/Fighter is quite nice. Debilitating Injury is also a thing the Rogue/Fighter can do which is quite nice inflicting -4 to AC, or -4 to attack. This is a tough choice.
Well crap, I thought for sure you could use a swift and an immediate in the same round knowing that I was losing my swift for the next round, but that is a problem. I'm already taking 3 levels of Weapon Master, I'll have to try dablling in more Weapon Master levels and see if I can still make the TWFing work. I'd really rather not drop TWFing the two-bladed sword from this. Slayer works so well because of Ranger Combat Styles for free TWF, ITWF, and TWRend, and the sneak attack is just gravy on top of it. Losing Studied isn't a total deal breaker, but it's definitely a problem I need to find a way around now.
The fact that Slayer can't use its combat buff actually makes it a rather weak choice in my opinion, when compared to all the powerful alternatives that can be thrown together by 16; Unchained Rogue/ Fighter/ Horizon Walker with Effortless Lace rapiers; dual 9-rings with Ascetic Style and Dragon Style on some kind of Sorcerer/ Dragon Disciple/ Martial thing; there are an awful lot of options that don't involve using a class that's gimping itself without swift action.
Again, I do lose Studied Target swift action, but only for the first hit, since I can still activate it once I start flanking and sneak attacking on the second hit.
None of those options still fit the theme though. Also Horizon Walker is still the best option in my opinion since it's an SLA, and doesn't require actually casting spells. I just get a solid 3+WIS uses of Dimension Door, which is frankly excellent. Sorcerer and Dragon Disciple is simply too far off the mark, and this is clearly not a rogue or rapier using build. The monk one could theoretically work, but I don't want to change weapons.
Cory Stafford 29 wrote:
Is that the weapon master fighter archetype, or is there a weaponmaster prc I am unaware of?
Yea, he means the Fighter archetype. If you're just after damage it's pretty much one of the best archetypes for Fighter, since it only requires a 3 level dip to achieve Weapon Training which you can then take advantage of with Gloves of Dueling.
Cory Stafford 29 wrote:
Cool build. I've always wanted to play with these feats when I first saw them, but I mainly play PFS because home games seem to disintegrate by mid level. That means, you are basically done by 10th or 11th level, so this feat chain is out of reach.
I don't even play PFS but it's still pretty rare I get to go over level 12 so I deliberately wanted to do something that comes online late with this.
Horizon Slayer isn't bad at all, but did you consider the applications for a level 16 Eldritch Knight type character for using a Dimensional Dervish build? By level 16, you're able to play with things like level 7 spells and Spell Perfection. Slayer is good for the Sneak Attack, but trying to use Study Target and Dimensional Dervish together is pretty dysfunctional.
I definitely agree with Studied Target and Dimesnional Dervish not working together, and it's really unfortunate, but I don't really see another alternative to obtaining the TWFing I need. I'm open to your suggestion on how to do this with the EK, provided I can maintain a high enough attack bonus to be worthwhile.
Outflanking with yourself definitely needs Combat Reflexes. You need the boots that improve your movement speed. Because Dim Door is limited by this.
Got the Boots of Striding and Springing already for that 60ft Dimension Door range.
I thought about Combat Reflexes, but I don't see myself critting nearly enough to make use of it, even if I am at a 17-20.
Alright, here is what I have so far now at level 16.
1 Slayer 1: Endurance, Iron Will
+4 Mithral Full Plate
Adding in Outflank and Studied Target my full round Dimensional Dervish looks like this, assuming I'm not activating Study until my 2nd hit through an immediate action on sneak attack through flanking.
Still really tempted to add in Double Slice again just to make that math all even, but this looks pretty solid to me? Could probably drop Impact, but I'm just a fan of that 2d6.
Looking for more advice on this.
Few reasons the feats aren't discussed:
1. Evil. Most campaigns don't allow evil.
Hell's Vengeance is a solid means of being able to make use of the Damnation feats, and it's even recommended in the Player's Guide as I recall. Diabolist is a solid means of bypassing the penalties as well.
So yea, the feats are typically really good, especially if you're an Antipaladin and take Mask of Virtue and Soulless Gaze. Maleficarum is pretty useless for martials, but pretty much everyone can make use of at least 2 of them.
Typos are one thing. It's another when said typo results in an archetype being unplayable as written.
Slayer 10/Horizon Walker 3/Weapon Master Fighter 3
With a 3 level dip into Fighter I lose 1d6 of sneak attack, a favored terrain, and Plains terrain mastery, but gain weapon training, which means I can buy Gloves of Dueling for a +3 to hit and damage on each hit.
While I can flank with myself in an opening volley thanks to Dimensional Dervish/Savant, it's not something I can really use a lot, so I'm not particularly likely to get much out of sneak attack after the first round. Also I can deal with just dropping heavy armor proficiency and just settling for a mithral breastplate, which also opens up an extra feat.
Human, and I already did it, see:11 S 7 FCB Extra Talent: Improved Critical
Opportunist seems less useful since I'm likely the only one in melee. Though flanking with myself to allow myself additional attacks of opportunities with myself could get rather silly.
I'd drop double slice. It's only giving you a maximum of 6 damage a round on a full attack and you don't need it for two weapon rend.. Also, double check with you GM about heavy armor training shutting down. Ranger combat style. Many people including me rule that because the slayer talent references the ranger ability it shares its medium armor limitation.
Yea, Double Slice is kind of just thrown in there at the end since I wasn't sure what else to grab, and I hated the idea of having to remember to remember to only use half STR mod for off-hand hits.
Interesting remark about Ranger Combat Style and heavy armor. Wearing mithral full plate is treated as medium armor though, which still works.
Got the opportunity to join a high level game starting at level 16, so I thought I'd try a build I'd never really want to level through since it didn't come online until much later. Queue the Dimensional Feats: Dimensional Agility, Assault, Dervish, and Savant. In addition I've also opted to go for TWFing using a double weapon, the two-bladed sword. Proficiency is solved with the 1.5k ioun stone, which is easily affordable. Normally I'm the first to steer people away from TWFing, but I feel like just being silly here frankly.
Right now I've got Slayer 12/Horizon Walker 4, to get the bulk of TWFing through Slayer talents, and Horizon Walker for the dimension door SLA.
1 Slayer 1: Iron Will, Endurance
The main things I'm questioning right now are the 4th level of Horizon Walker, and the Heavy Armor Proficiency. I'll likely be the only person in melee, so I'm not too sure I'm comfortable downgrading to a mithral breastplate. The idea was to take Plains as my 2nd terrain mastery to remove the movement penalty for wearing mithral full plate so I could dimension door for longer distances, but I'm not sure it's quite worth it. I was also considering Power Attack but it just really doesn't seem nearly as worth it with TWFing, though with a two-bladed sword I can definitely still use one end of it 2h to get some nice mileage out of it.
Looking for any advice, as well as purchasing recommendations, since 315k is frankly, a lot. 3pp suggestions are fine, but are subject to my DM of course.
I dunno, if the only person specialized for melee is a bard while the crafting and healing situations are fine I think a melee cohort or two might be helpful. The skinwalker barbarian and the griffon riding cavalier have been huge helps in combat.
If the only melee DPS in the party is a bard then I simply must question your playgroups decision making abilities. Requiring leadership to fill in a critical missing party element is hardly advisable, nor optimized.
The Chort wrote:
Getting a crafting slave with Leadership is exactly what you do to optimize leadership. No one actually uses leadership for an NPC party member to join battles with.
Derros have existed within popular culture since the mid 1900s. This guy invented them, Shaver. DnD, and Pathfinder took the concept and modified them obviously.
Also no, Derros are not a 0 HD race. You'd need GM permission and some finagling to play one.
So Spirit Guide is highly suggested for the Oracle side, which is fine, due to the increased flexibility. Is there a suggestion for the archetype for the Paladin side? If suggestions for it are in the referenced Oradin guide, I can check it out later.
For the Paladin side it depends on what you're looking for. If you really want to play up the healing aspect, then Hospitaler. You get a weaker channel, but a whole separate pool, which once again will stack with Holy Vindicator and the Cavalier VMC. The base class works as well, and if you want to help out more in the damage department, Oath of Vengeance is always a solid pick. Sacred Servant could work, and on the flipside if you don't care so much about Paladin casting, then Warrior of the Holy Light could also work.
I don't think I'm seeing what's so great about VMC Cavalier Order of the Star; could someone explain the primary benefit I would be going for there?
I said why in my first post:"In addition, the cavalier adds 1/2 his cavalier level to any levels of paladin or cleric he might possess for the purposes of determining the effects of channel energy or lay on hands."
Agreed that going straight paladin is easily the hardest to kill, and if you're content with using wands for healing others, then it's the best option.
Sounds interesting; I've seen Oradin mentioned a lot on the forums here, and just to ensure I understand, is that just an Oracle and Paladin multiclass? Is there a specific ratio that is recommended?
Correct. Typically you go 3-4 levels of Life Oracle, and the rest in Paladin. There's some debate as to the best order to level in. Personally I like..
1 Oracle 1 Channel
We are only currently level 6, so the Oracle would need to at least be enough levels to bond with all other party members correct? That would mean not enough levels of Paladin to even have spellcasting yet
How many people are in your party? You only need 3 levels for a normal party of 4. Also if you're already level 6 then swap the above order with Paladin first so you get the extra max HP from level 1.
Tiefling (Kyton-spawn) Oradin with Fey Foundling
Fey Foundling + the Tiefling Paladin FCB and Hero's Defiance will make you nearly impossible to kill. Add in the Lifelink from Life Oracle and you have an effective means of in-combat and out of combat healing. If you care less about damage, then Hospitaller is a great archetype for Paladin, and you can get some great Channeling efficiency with levels into Holy Vindicator since it stacks with both Hospitallers channels, and the Oracle channels.
For even more cheese, consider a VMC into Cavalier Order of the Stars. You'll lose a ton of feats, but...
There are other responses, but those are largely due to other factors. Nodachi is a polearm without reach, and can be used with Shield Brace for 2hed damage while still wielding a shield. Longspear is the definitive simple weapon reach weapon. Most of the martial options aren't much better, though Bardiche is basically the best of them due to the 1d10 19-20/x2.
As mentioned, if you're going dex, you want the Inspired Blade dip, if you decide to go STR, then you save yourself a bit of pain.
Personally I'll always recommend in favor of a STR investigator. Level 3 you take Mutagen, no questions asked, and level 5 you get Quick Study, again no questions asked. You will do this or suffer. From there you're pretty free to go as you please.
You have about a 0.01% chance of a DM ever allowing Sacred Geometry. Look at other options.
Personally I just never find this useful. Your mileage may vary.
Also keep in mind if you go Eldritch Archer you get a free arcane bonded gun, ideally this is a Revolver, and since it's an arcane bond, adding enhancements and enchants only cost half price and do not require the relevant item creation feats.
I know you picked Gunslinger for Dex to damage, but have you thought of Warlord?
Everyone knows DSPs gun using classes/archetypes blow away the Gunslinger. But it's 3pp and most DMs don't allow it.
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Except OP is clearly summoning 4 Owlbear Skeletons. This is only doable with the 3.5 spell which specifies Owlbear Skeletons. Also Summon Undead is special in that the weaker versions summon the exact numbers of creatures, not 1d3/1d4. So OP is using Summon Undead 4 to Summon exactly 4 Owlbear Skeletons obtained from Summon Undead 2s list, each time.
Do you really think it's fine for your DM to just suddenly roll your saves for you and then say, "you failed, you died"? It's just numbers right?
The sane response is of course not. You should have the freedom to roll those saves, to fail or succeed is in the die in your hands. Not the DM. You control your charcter, not the DM.
Why bother asking the players to roll to identify a monster? Everyone typically just randomly rolls their own knowledge when encountering one and hopes they hit gold by getting the right knowledge and roll. The ranger skilled in knowledge nature sees some terrible monster that's actually undead, rolls his nature and goes "nope, definitely not nature", meanwhile the cleric rolls his religion and hopefully triumphantly is capable of informing the ranger of what it actually is.
Seems like you got the gist of everything on how to smash faces.
The 15 con is not wasted at all. The 15 dex is, unless you somehow planned to do some TWFing. For a weapon a falchion is always solid, though a greatsword is always great and recommended too. Statistly, the crit based weapons tend to deal more damage overtime and would generally be viewed as more optimized... but who doesn't love a good greatsword? If you're going down the CAGM route, the fauchard is the most optimized weapon though. Later down the line you'll want to enchant your weapon with Furious, quite important.
For feats, Raging Vitality you want at level 1, 3 at the latest followed by Power Attack also at 1 or 3. For your Rage powers, jump down the Superstition tree and Beast Totem trees. Both are just extremely important, and Spell Sunder is something that will never get old, and is one of few things unique to barbarians.
I'd still recommend not stealing from the party ever, and if you do, do it once, and get caught doing it, so nothing is actually lost. Also the party doesn't need to know your goals at all. Earlier I played an AP with an Asmodean Cleric. My character kinda got thrown into the party since we were all out for vengeance on someone, but after a series of events I realized I was in a good position to gain a great deal of power by sticking with the party, so I did, and became friends with them even. I knew I may need to betray them in the end, but I'd try my hardest to make them see that my goals were for the best. I obviously never informed them of any of this, though as an Asmodean they knew I had ulterior motives. In the end I sacrificed myself to save the city... a wish gone horribly wrong.
Planning for an alignment shift is an idea but it's best left open ended. Base the alignment shift on the actions of the party, not a pre-built plan. Also keep in mind Paladins are more prone to kill evil than redeem it. Sarenrae is an exception but even then Paladins of Sarenrae are expected to kill evil if it does not go along with the redemption.
As for unchained ninja nokizaru, I don't see why it wouldn't work. Remember, all nokizaru alters is the ki pool, and replaces sneak attack.
The results that come from that chunk of plastic are not effected by who throws it unless someone is cheating, so the question stands. Would you be happy if the player rolled the dice by reaching over the GM screen and rolling it so they couldn't see how it landed? Actually rolling the dicephysically is a pretty minor bit of player agency at best.
I disagree. Rolling the dice physically is a crucially important aspect. If you really don't see a difference in a player rolling a skill and a DM then I just don't know what to tell you. Taking away a players rolls is simply a terrible idea. I'm aware Paizo themselves encourage DMs to roll cettain skill checks in secret, but I simply do not.