Just when you thought Oracles were becoming a bit more balanced....


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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This Oracle Archetype is released

LOL....Doomsaying ability?!!?!? "Oracle II - Revenge of the OP Heretic."


Doomsaying does look rather powerful. Especially for an Oracle focusing on charisma.

Sovereign Court

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The Pale King wrote:
Doomsaying does look rather powerful. Especially for an Oracle focusing on charisma.

So... every Oracle?


Or, y'know, picking your die roll once per day.

I guess it's one way to make scythes viable.


Paizo, if you're going to buff the Oracle please do so in a way that lets it fill a cleric's shoes without spending a fortune on pages of spell knowledge. That would actually make the game better rather than worse.

Silver Crusade

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Given we now have quite decent attack spells that are divination spells the bonus spell list is also VERY good.

Sigh.

Assume Fate is also wonderful. Target yourself with a harmful spell.

Edit: Just realized it is NOT PFS legal. Thank you Mike.


The bonus spell is fun as I can snatch the weird psychic spells as Mental Block or Thrust


I can see the Assume Fate ability causing arguments amon the party.


So... this oracle in Wrath of the Righteous can get a Cha mod of +20. And for the last half of book 6 have Nat 20's on all rolls she makes ever. Kind of amusing. Oh, and Flash of Insight affects actions you do, not specifically rolls you make... so you make others roll nat 1's on all of your spells to auto-fail them. Hrmm.


Cyclops Bestiary Entry wrote:

Flash of Insight (Su)

Once per day as an immediate action, a cyclops can peer into an occluded visual spectrum of possible futures, gaining insight that allows it to select the exact result of one die roll before the roll is made. This effect can alter an action taken by the cyclops only, and cannot be applied to the rolls of others.

It specifically calls out that it can't affect the rolls of other creatures. Since it's an immediate action, you only get a guaranteed Nat 20 on one roll per round. Not to say it isn't powerful, but it's not as bad as you say, Myrryr.

Is Wrath of the Righteous the Mythic AP or something? Because otherwise, I have no idea how you would get the 50 Charisma necessary for a +20 modifier. I'm not even sure if Mythic adds enough extra bonuses for it.


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Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You realize that this archetype is intended for cyclos oracles, right?


ZZTRaider wrote:


Is Wrath of the Righteous the Mythic AP or something? Because otherwise, I have no idea how you would get the 50 Charisma necessary for a +20 modifier. I'm not even sure if Mythic adds enough extra bonuses for it.

Yes, it is. 18 base Cha, +2 racial, +5 inherent, +5 lvls, +6 enhance for the normal 36 'cap'. Then +10 from mythic tiers for a 46, +2 from devotion pts in book 1, then +2 anarchic boost from Arushelae in book 3, so by lvl 20 which is halfway through book 6, you've got 50 Cha. This isn't counting other sources like becoming a half-celestial or a lich for more.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Atarlost wrote:
Paizo, if you're going to buff the Oracle please do so in a way that lets it fill a cleric's shoes without spending a fortune on pages of spell knowledge. That would actually make the game better rather than worse.

What is the point of 'buffing' the oracle is it's just going to be a cleric? Just play a cleric. The Oracle is a wholly different thing from the Cleric, and should not fill it's shoes at all. If anything, what the Oracle really needs is more varied and interesting curses. The current list of Paizo sourced curses is extremely small.

Silver Crusade

Zaister wrote:
You realize that this archetype is intended for cyclos oracles, right?

I'm guessing no


Doomsaying doesn't seem all that powerful. Sure you can use it multiples times /day, but the effect only lasts until a target fails a single roll.

They Cyclops' power of "predefine a roll' is pretty sweet, but probably not gamebreaking on a caster class. "Nat 20 on my greataxe! That's 3d12+6!" Woo? Autosaving some stuff will be nice, but Oracles didn't exactly have bad saves before.


Squirrel_Dude wrote:

Doomsaying doesn't seem all that powerful. Sure you can use it multiples times /day, but the effect only lasts until a target fails a single roll.

They Cyclops' power of "predefine a roll' is pretty sweet, but probably not gamebreaking on a caster class. "Nat 20 on my greataxe! That's 3d12+6!" Woo? Autosaving some stuff will be nice, but Oracles didn't exactly have bad saves before.

Eh WTF are you smoking!?

Doomsaying is NO save NO SR!

You can shut down monsters 1 by 1....once you get to about 8th level.... BAM -8 on all saves! Next spell cast on them virtually guaranteed to succeed

Dark Archive

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.

Dark Archive

Silver Surfer wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:

Doomsaying doesn't seem all that powerful. Sure you can use it multiples times /day, but the effect only lasts until a target fails a single roll.

They Cyclops' power of "predefine a roll' is pretty sweet, but probably not gamebreaking on a caster class. "Nat 20 on my greataxe! That's 3d12+6!" Woo? Autosaving some stuff will be nice, but Oracles didn't exactly have bad saves before.

Eh WTF are you smoking!?

Doomsaying is NO save NO SR!

You can shut down monsters 1 by 1....once you get to about 8th level.... BAM -8 on all saves! Next spell cast on them virtually guaranteed to succeed

As for that nat 20... i know a few class that wont mind a 1 level dip to get an assured crit every day(looking at you gunslinger with deadshot).


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Zaister wrote:
You realize that this archetype is intended for cyclos oracles, right?

So much that the flash of insight class feature is worded in the case the user is not a cyclops


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You think that's overpowered... check out the Site-Bound curse.. talk about a buff, huh?!?


You can use Assume Fate and Doomsaying with save-or-suck/die/sit-out spells pretty easily. Hell, if there's a way to get Phantasmal Killer and/or Weird for an Oracle, you could use those!
Also consider that 3 levels in Bloodrager gets you a +2 to saves against spells cast by yourself or an ally (7 levels would get you access to Mystic Theurge with 2 Cha-users, but that's probably a little too much tradeoff). Bloodrager levels would also not be out of place with a Cyclopean Seer. You know, a big angry giant that has seizures that tells it the future? 2 levels of Paladin gets you Cha to saves, which is better but far less thematic.
Also, the Cyclops Helm magic item would give another power themed for this archetype, not to mention how silly-yet-terrifyingly-gruesome it would be for a Cyclops to be wearing a helm made from the head of another Cyclops.
Or perhaps VMC Diviner Wizard? That's be interesting.
The more I think of it, the more this sounds like a build for a really awesome big bad.


Entryhazard wrote:
Zaister wrote:
You realize that this archetype is intended for cyclos oracles, right?
So much that the flash of insight class feature is worded in the case the user is not a cyclops

It reminds me of when someone insisted that the Orc sorcerer bloodline was 'intended' only for orc sorcerers...even though the bloodline explicitly grants the orc subtype and light sensitivity, which if you were an orc you'd already have:|


Entryhazard wrote:
So much that the flash of insight class feature is worded in the case the user is not a cyclops

Could also be about Great Cyclops.

For reference the revelation:

Quote:
Flash of Insight (Su): You gain the cyclops racial ability of the same name. If you already possess this ability, you gain an additional daily use.

Scarab Sages

Entryhazard wrote:
Zaister wrote:
You realize that this archetype is intended for cyclos oracles, right?
So much that the flash of insight class feature is worded in the case the user is not a cyclops
ISMC p.17 wrote:
Cyclops Oracles and those who worship the one-eyed giants use their ...
Quote:
The following new oracle curses are common among cyclops oracles and oracles who worship cyclopes...
Quote:
Flash of Insight (Su): You gain the cyclops racial ability ... If you already possess this ability...

Definitely written to allow non-cyclops oracles, so long as they are cyclops-groupies...


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Y... we.... Erhm...

Okay I've got nothing. This is just crazy good.


Sigh..... I really do despair of Paizo


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Stuff like this sneaks into softcovers pretty frequently. The design team does not get involved and powerful (and incredibly weak) material is added.

I'm not sure what a realistic solution to this would be. With as many books going on as they have, it sounds like it would be tough to perform additional balancing/editing passes.

Still, it's something to community to push for because maybe it is something that could happen.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMM!


They do have to pick some really s~*#ty curses. I dunno about making a haunted combat oracle with this

Also assume fate and brutal trance aren't very good either, and you are forced to take those


CWheezy wrote:

They do have to pick some really s$&~ty curses. I dunno about making a haunted combat oracle with this

Also assume fate and brutal trance aren't very good either, and you are forced to take those

You know Haunted doesn't apply to spell components or drawing weapons, right?


Hi, why would it not? If you aren't wielding it than the item is stored


This is ok. Some great stuff some ok stuff. It's decent though but hardly the be all end all.


CWheezy wrote:
Hi, why would it not? If you aren't wielding it than the item is stored

Because FAQ stated so.

It still applies if you're retrieving a weapon stored in a backpack or something, but not, for example, from a belt sheath.

Scarab Sages

The ability to get a natural 20 on a single roll is nice... but I think we're are forgetting that Flash of Insight says "one die roll" and a d% should qualify. What tomfoolery can we get into by being able to declare a natural 100 (or whatever number we like best)?

Rod of Wonder
Bag of Tricks
Reincarnate
Chon Chon Elixir

And perhaps my favorite: Strange Fluids

Any others?


CraziFuzzy wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Paizo, if you're going to buff the Oracle please do so in a way that lets it fill a cleric's shoes without spending a fortune on pages of spell knowledge. That would actually make the game better rather than worse.
What is the point of 'buffing' the oracle is it's just going to be a cleric? Just play a cleric. The Oracle is a wholly different thing from the Cleric, and should not fill it's shoes at all. If anything, what the Oracle really needs is more varied and interesting curses. The current list of Paizo sourced curses is extremely small.

The ranger, barbarian, paladin, monk, druid, cavalier, antipaladin, samurai, slayer, brawler, and -- within certain encounter/day limits -- the warpriest, inquisitor, cleric, magus, shaman, and oracle can fill the fighter's shoes.

The sorcerer, arcanist, witch, summoner, and to a degree shaman, oracle, and druid can fill the wizard's shoes.

The bard, inquisitor, ranger, alchemist, investigator, ninja, wizard, and sage sorcerer can fill the rogue's shoes.

Only one specific witch patron can fill the cleric's shoes. No one else has all the spells outside crippling spontaneous spells known limits or severely delayed spell access.

There are tons of fighter substitutes and no shortage of wizard or rogue substitutes, but there's only one cleric substitute and it's not the default build. Eleven classes exist just to do a fighter's job without being a fighter. Four classes exist just to do a wizard's job without being a wizard. Five classes exist just to do a rogues job without being a rogue. There's just one witch patron for doing the cleric's job.

The game was made better by introducing alternatives to the rogue. It will be made better by introducing alternatives to the cleric.


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Myrryr wrote:
ZZTRaider wrote:


Is Wrath of the Righteous the Mythic AP or something? Because otherwise, I have no idea how you would get the 50 Charisma necessary for a +20 modifier. I'm not even sure if Mythic adds enough extra bonuses for it.
Yes, it is. 18 base Cha, +2 racial, +5 inherent, +5 lvls, +6 enhance for the normal 36 'cap'. Then +10 from mythic tiers for a 46, +2 from devotion pts in book 1, then +2 anarchic boost from Arushelae in book 3, so by lvl 20 which is halfway through book 6, you've got 50 Cha. This isn't counting other sources like becoming a half-celestial or a lich for more.

So, if I understand correctly: once you hit 20th level / 10th mythic tier, if you put every possible bonus into Charisma (including successfully gaining the ability bonuses in both books 1 and 3), you can select a 20 on a die roll as an immediate action without limit?

That makes for a very powerful ability, yes -- but keep in mind that immediate actions eat up a swift action, and mythic characters particularly benefit from their swift actions. And ultimately, this build essentially makes the surge and force of will abilities redundant by replacing them with flash of insight, which is cool but does mean you're overlapping on a lot of power you would already normally be getting as a mythic character.

More to the point, however: once you've reached 20/10, you're practically a demigod already. Were I GMing such a game, if a player actually devoted all of those resources to pulling this off at the very end of the adventure, I think I would just applaud their dedication and foresight, congratulate them on their character breaking probability wide open and becoming a full-blown tychokinetic, and carry right on with all the other wonderfully over-the-top things that happen in the final chapters of that AP.


Be careful using this archetype. Based upon what Paizo did with the ACG and ARG errata, I suspect the plan here is to have this overpowered option be part of the selling point for the book, and then nerf it later when the sales die down. You should definitely ask your GM what he or she will do when then inevitable nerfing happens. You don't want to get stuck with a terrible character build mid-campaign.


Silver Surfer wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:

Doomsaying doesn't seem all that powerful. Sure you can use it multiples times /day, but the effect only lasts until a target fails a single roll.

They Cyclops' power of "predefine a roll' is pretty sweet, but probably not gamebreaking on a caster class. "Nat 20 on my greataxe! That's 3d12+6!" Woo? Autosaving some stuff will be nice, but Oracles didn't exactly have bad saves before.

Eh WTF are you smoking!?

Doomsaying is NO save NO SR!

You can shut down monsters 1 by 1....once you get to about 8th level.... BAM -8 on all saves! Next spell cast on them virtually guaranteed to succeed

So you have to expend a standard action, daily use ability, to make someone fail a save.

That's honestly not so unreasonable in my books.


Tin Foil Yamakah wrote:
Zaister wrote:
You realize that this archetype is intended for cyclos oracles, right?
I'm guessing no

And yet it isn't actually racially locked, making the intention worthless. Anyway, oh wow Doomsaying. Combine with another caster in the party or you being high enough level for Quicken and/or Spell Perfection... Much one rounding of anything.


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I, for one, welcome our new One-Eyed Giant-worshipping overlords.


Why is everyone so worked up by one D20? if you crit... do you not then have to confirm the crit with a second D20? essentially this seems like an auto-hit, an auto-fail, or an auto "choose your action/reward" not an auto-crit, but an easier crit/auto-hit, and only once a day... it hardly seems game-breaking.


pauljathome wrote:
Just realized it is NOT PFS legal. Thank you Mike.

Makes sense to me. I haven't read the book but it's called "Inner Sea Monster Codex" which makes it sound like it's aimed at NPCs and not PCs. Do DM's regularly allow PCs to gain access to monster-only (or highly suggested monster only) options? For example I've never met a DM that allowed juju zombies because it was from a DM book and they always felt it was explicitly aimed at NPCs only.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Still, bloody fire soils the underpants of many...


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Timebomb wrote:

The ability to get a natural 20 on a single roll is nice... but I think we're are forgetting that Flash of Insight says "one die roll" and a d% should qualify. What tomfoolery can we get into by being able to declare a natural 100 (or whatever number we like best)?

Rod of Wonder
Bag of Tricks
Reincarnate
Chon Chon Elixir

And perhaps my favorite: Strange Fluids

Any others?

Regarding Reincarnate.. I'm note sure you can use the Flash of Insight ability when you're dead, so this is unlikely to impact reincarnation's racial selection..


CraziFuzzy wrote:
Timebomb wrote:

The ability to get a natural 20 on a single roll is nice... but I think we're are forgetting that Flash of Insight says "one die roll" and a d% should qualify. What tomfoolery can we get into by being able to declare a natural 100 (or whatever number we like best)?

Rod of Wonder
Bag of Tricks
Reincarnate
Chon Chon Elixir

And perhaps my favorite: Strange Fluids

Any others?

Regarding Reincarnate.. I'm note sure you can use the Flash of Insight ability when you're dead, so this is unlikely to impact reincarnation's racial selection..

Witch's Forced Reincarnation hex?


M1k31 wrote:
Why is everyone so worked up by one D20? if you crit... do you not then have to confirm the crit with a second D20? essentially this seems like an auto-hit, an auto-fail, or an auto "choose your action/reward" not an auto-crit, but an easier crit/auto-hit, and only once a day... it hardly seems game-breaking.

Confirmation rolls use the same bonus as the attack that threatened.

So say you are an Oracle with this archetype and you cast true strike the round before then the confirmation roll gets the +20 just like the original attack did.

Or you can just wait until quickened true strikes become feasible.

Hell, if your going down this route just take sacred geometry as well.

The Exchange

Gotta get that vorpal weapon and get a 20 automatically.


Ragoz wrote:
Gotta get that vorpal weapon and get a 20 automatically.

Once per day is not even that OP as you have to confirm the crit anyway.


outshyn wrote:
Be careful using this archetype. Based upon what Paizo did with the ACG and ARG errata, I suspect the plan here is to have this overpowered option be part of the selling point for the book, and then nerf it later when the sales die down. You should definitely ask your GM what he or she will do when then inevitable nerfing happens. You don't want to get stuck with a terrible character build mid-campaign.

Ah, no, the "beautiful" part of this is that it's a campaign setting book/soft cover and they have a policy not to FAQ or Errata those ever.

It's why Sacred Geometry in all its WTF why does this even exist glory will never be changed.


Silver Surfer wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:

Doomsaying doesn't seem all that powerful. Sure you can use it multiples times /day, but the effect only lasts until a target fails a single roll.

They Cyclops' power of "predefine a roll' is pretty sweet, but probably not gamebreaking on a caster class. "Nat 20 on my greataxe! That's 3d12+6!" Woo? Autosaving some stuff will be nice, but Oracles didn't exactly have bad saves before.

Eh WTF are you smoking!?

Doomsaying is NO save NO SR!

You can shut down monsters 1 by 1....once you get to about 8th level.... BAM -8 on all saves! Next spell cast on them virtually guaranteed to succeed

What makes you think Doomsaying doesn't have a save?

Revelations wrote:
Unless otherwise noted, the DC to save against these revelations is equal to 10 + 1/2 the oracle’s level + the oracle’s Charisma modifier.

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