Frankly I get it that a bastard sword has the biggest damage die for a one handed weapon, but the cost of a feat to use it as such just makes this weapon downright silly unless I'm missing something. Sure you can get dex to damage with it with enough work, but how is that in any way better than a Katana since it has the same feat requirements to get and can get dex to attack and damage if needed. I highly doubt having the chance to roll two higher on the die is better than a better critical range. Is it just outclassed?
Hand crossbows... This needs no explanation IMO, just as much as a pain to use as regular crossbows but with 1d4 damage. I think you can dual wield them but that doesn't fix reloading them... Or learning to reload with your hands full.
I really love both of these weapons but I can't find a single reason why you should use them. So am I missing something here?
The bastard sword is good (basically an upgraded longsword) for any class that gets proficiency through their god, and the hand crossbow is good for stealth, I assume.
Not much else going for them.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bastard Sword I've seen used because you can wield a large one, then enlarge/lead blades and get to effective gargantuan dice for Furious Finish builds.
Rogues have proficiency in hand crossbows, if you can go before the opponents and get dual wield sneak full attack in the first round thats not terrible. Can't really think of much else as far as that's concerned.
Ignoring the idea of just have a dozen crossbows loaded and using quick draw, there are various options that allow you to load a pair of hand crossbows. And they all come on at level 2
1. Alchemists' vestigial limb. Pretty much its intended purpose
2. Witch's prehensile hair. Minutes/level though
3. Juggler bard. I do not feel like I have to elaborate any further.
Now, who would even want to go to all this trouble? Well...the bolt ace might certainly enjoy them.
Oh, and you could use sword and gun feat if you have a gauntlet type weapon. That feat works for crossbows as well.
But no, most weapons are not made with much actual use in mind. There are a few basics here and there that have some concept of trying to have actual use...but mostly, it is just flavor.
The best idea I can come up with is that you could go in with both your melee weapon and a ranged weapon drawn. Get in one shot with handcross bow, drop it, and then 2 hand your main weapon. Or don't drop it, if you are a rogue that just wants to use a single rapier, and wanted an option with your off hand (I mean....they are the class automatically proficient in the little buggers)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
*waits for annoying Stormwind Fallacy interjection about how "you could be burning a feat for roleplay reasons, and you're a bad player for even asking that question"*
Looks like I got a good seats for the inevitable entertainment. Let me know when the douchebag with a superiority complex looking down on you for disagreeing with your style of gameplay true roleplayers show up.
In the meantime, I agree. I never burn a feat on either of those, although I suppose you could two weapon fight at no penalty with the hand crossbows, a tiefling with prehensile tail, and the grasping tail feat.
Though to what avail? The damage is terrible. Maybe as a ranger with favored enemey bonuses, or a hell of a unique paladin (pun intended) really capitalizing on smite...
Actually that would make a pretty bad @$$ stealth based divine hunter.
I may actually try that...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
*waits for annoying Stormwind Fallacy interjection about how "you could be burning a feat for roleplay reasons, and you're a bad player for even asking that question"*
Looks like I got a good seats for the inevitable entertainment. Let me know when the
douchebag with a superiority complex looking down on you for disagreeing with your style of gameplaytrue roleplayers show up.In the meantime, I agree. I never burn a feat on either of those, although I suppose you could two weapon fight at no penalty with the hand crossbows, a tiefling with prehensile tail, and the grasping tail feat.
Though to what avail? The damage is terrible. Maybe as a ranger with favored enemey bonuses, or a hell of a unique paladin (pun intended) really capitalizing on smite...
Actually that would make a pretty bad @$$ stealth based divine hunter.
I may actually try that...
Well I certainly hope I don't get that sort of flame going on as I am all for role-play and going out of your way to make it work, however my weapons never have to much to do with how my characters role-play. I find these weapons pretty cool and was wondering if they had any fun tricks to justify their use.
I think my suggestion of using a prehensile tail and grasping tail to make dual wielding the crossbows a viable option was okay.
Admittedly it requires a specific race, three feats (grasping tail, twf, and rapid reload), and a source of bonus damage such as smite, sneak attack, favored enemy, etc, to pull it off.
Years ago when exotic weapon proficiency was a new thing, the list was much smaller than it is now, and the degree to which they were better than martial weapons was small when compared to "newer" exotic weapons. These are holdovers from that time and have not improved, unfortunately. It is unliekly to change.
One "fix" would be to give the bastard sword stats indentical to the katana. An alternative would be to make some homebrew traits that grant proficiency to one of the "lesser" exotic weapons.
|
|
Well, do you enjoy making transforming noises, such as those on Transformers?
Then the Bastard Sword is for you.
Switch from one hand, or two hands on it, and it TRANSFORMS!
|
Compare bastard swords to katanas: The latter is a longsword with superior threat range (and a special quality I think is pretty underwhelming), whereas the former has the same threat range, but a superior damage die. Yes, you'll score more critical hits with a katana, but most hits still will not be critical, meaning the bastard sword's edge in raw damage is better for all those hits that aren't critical. Seems on the level to me.
Compare bastard swords to katanas: The latter is a longsword with superior threat range (and a special quality I think is pretty underwhelming), whereas the former has the same threat range, but a superior damage die. Yes, you'll score more critical hits with a katana, but most hits still will not be critical, meaning the bastard sword's edge in raw damage is better for all those hits that aren't critical. Seems on the level to me.
Not when you consider keen or Improved critical it doesn't seem to be even.
Compare bastard swords to katanas: The latter is a longsword with superior threat range (and a special quality I think is pretty underwhelming), whereas the former has the same threat range, but a superior damage die. Yes, you'll score more critical hits with a katana, but most hits still will not be critical, meaning the bastard sword's edge in raw damage is better for all those hits that aren't critical. Seems on the level to me.
For things like this, the maths largely determines what matters.
The superior threat range beats the extra 1 average damage when more than 20 total damage is dealt. Critical focus+improved critical makes the magic number closer to about 8 or so.
So if you are investing in the appropriate critical feats, katana is better. If you aren't and you are dealing less than 20 damage a hit bastard sword wins.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In either case, most other feats would be a better choice than an exotic weapon. I'd rather a scimitar or a longsword and an unburned feat to spend than a katana or bastard sword.
I haven't thought of doing anything mechanically to improve the bastard sword (one of my favorite weapons aesthetically) but in my homebrew game you can pick up proficiency with it from a trait.
Don't Tengu get proficiency with bastard swords as a racial trait?
And all swords in general. Possibly a lot of knives too.
I mean, it somewhat has to compete with elven curved sword then. Ignoring how much everyone loves dex builds for them, the elven curved blade does have the same damage dice and a high crit range.
Although I suppose it can't get quite the same silly damage dice changes since it can't be oversized (thus leaving it a step behind bastard swords for the crazy size builds)
|
|
Well, do you enjoy making transforming noises, such as those on Transformers?
Then the Bastard Sword is for you.
Switch from one hand, or two hands on it, and it TRANSFORMS!
No, you want a four-armed alchemist with a shield, one-handed sword and a reach weapon, complete with quickdraw for that kind of stuff.
Don't Tengu get proficiency with bastard swords as a racial trait?And all swords in general. Possibly a lot of knives too.
I mean, it somewhat has to compete with elven curved sword then. Ignoring how much everyone loves dex builds for them, the elven curved blade does have the same damage dice and a high crit range.
Elven curved blade? What are you, casual? Estoc is where its at now; essentially identical to the curved blade except it is piercing can be used one handed if need be. Still don't think there is an actual dex to damage feat that works with either though...
Elven curved blade? What are you, casual? Estoc is where its at now; essentially identical to the curved blade except it is piercing can be used one handed if need be. Still don't think there is an actual dex to damage feat that works with either though...Don't Tengu get proficiency with bastard swords as a racial trait?And all swords in general. Possibly a lot of knives too.
I mean, it somewhat has to compete with elven curved sword then. Ignoring how much everyone loves dex builds for them, the elven curved blade does have the same damage dice and a high crit range.
Oh no, Giant Dad, how I have shamed you!
Escept it has 2d4 (which is basically 1d8 really, except slightly more DPR). So a slight step behind as well, and far less deserving of the size antics.
estoc- 2d4 (5 dpr)->2d6 (7) large->3d6 (10.5) impact+large
ECB- 1d10 (5.5)-> 2d8 (9) impact
Bastardn sword-> 1d10 (5.5) -> 2d8 (9) large -> 3d8 (13.5) large+impact
So really, you only get 1.5 damage for a -2 to hit between ecb and large estoc. In comparison, a large bastard sword gives 4.5 extra damage for -2 to hit, which is slightly less than power attack, but still pretty close.
Now, I might be wrong here. I am not sure how things like enlarge person changes this situation....mostly because I always forget to find where to find the 'are you serious?' damage dice tables.
I'll wait until someone brings up the numbers or links (because we all know the guy that is addicted to rolling dice; they are the main reason why rogues got much play at all......)
If enlarged, 3d6 goes to 4d6, and 3d8 goes to 4d8. With Vital Strike, Improved vital strike, and greater vital strike, an Enlarged Amiri with Impact on her Large Bastard Sword is doing 16d8+str+etc. This is probably not worth it as such, considering it can't be done as a full attack, but there's a certain enjoyment in having to roll so many dice it's hard to hold them in your hands.
Of course, the ultimate abuse of vital strike is the wildshaped druid taking the form of an Arsinoitherium and casting Enlarge Person on themself, along with an Impact amulet of mighty fists. This would give 8d8 base dice, with 32d8 with all three vital strike feats.
(Megalodon, aka Dire Shark, gives 4d10 base, but you can't wild shape into it, and it isn't effective on land anyway.)
If enlarged, 3d6 goes to 4d6, and 3d8 goes to 4d8. With Vital Strike, Improved vital strike, and greater vital strike, an Enlarged Amiri with Impact on her Large Bastard Sword is doing 16d8+str+etc. This is probably not worth it as such, considering it can't be done as a full attack, but there's a certain enjoyment in having to roll so many dice it's hard to hold them in your hands.
duh..duh..duh..duh...dah.
Yeah, enlarged actually makes the estoc even worse by comparison
ecb- 3d8 (13.5)
Estoc- 4d6 (14)
Bastard- 4d8 (18)
And the estoc still suffers a -2 to attack.
It is just the reason why bastard swords are beloved -the 1d10 track just ends up better when mixed with size madness.
it's also loved due to "big sword big character" tropes. Mainly stemming from anime and games.
sidenote. Repeating hand crossbow TWF as a bolt ace 11+ (WORKING ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT YOUR GM SAYS "NOT AN ACTION" RELOADING IS FINE FORR THAT TWF) with bleeding critical is amusing as hell.
but I'm a bleed fan.. so I'mbiased to hell and back.
but the crit rate isn't deplorableIt's a fun ace bolt~ Well it's still fun stylish withotu TWF too. If your a fan of close range GunFu style characters
Of course...but the bastard sword in particular is loved because it does it well.
Large Bastard Sword with Growing and Impact weapon enchantment. Also enlarge person. It makes it 6d8. Not too bad for Vital Strike, Mythic. 6d8 X4 = 24d8. +4 times your other damage bonus. It's not bad against things that immune to crit and have high DR. Also against things with high AC, since you only rely on one attack to deal damage.
Not sure about hand crossbow
Compare bastard swords to katanas: The latter is a longsword with superior threat range (and a special quality I think is pretty underwhelming), whereas the former has the same threat range, but a superior damage die. Yes, you'll score more critical hits with a katana, but most hits still will not be critical, meaning the bastard sword's edge in raw damage is better for all those hits that aren't critical. Seems on the level to me.Not when you consider keen or Improved critical it doesn't seem to be even.
It is no different than considering whether a scimitar than a longsword. In fact the math is exactly the same.
For bastard swords, it's like getting +1 to damage over a normal longsword. With that in mind, it's like taking a damage version of weapon focus. Which is a feat people take too.
I'm with you on hand crossbows though. Those suck all the butt.
Considering that hand crossbows use in-game was to facilitate stealthy delivery of sleep poison without shooting too big a hole in the slave-waiting-to-happen it fills this purpose admirably.
Repeating hand crossbows firing bolts slathered with the poison du jour should work wonders to wreck one's foes. ;)
Considering that hand crossbows use in-game was to facilitate stealthy delivery of sleep poison without shooting too big a hole in the slave-waiting-to-happen it fills this purpose admirably.
Repeating hand crossbows firing bolts slathered with the poison du jour should work wonders to wreck one's foes. ;)
This would be an option if poison was ever worth it at the levels you can afford it. I've never found it viable as a PC. A monster/NPC can get away with it because they don't have to care about paying for new poison all the time.
Considering that hand crossbows use in-game was to facilitate stealthy delivery of sleep poison without shooting too big a hole in the slave-waiting-to-happen it fills this purpose admirably.
*Cough*blowgun*cough*
Considering that hand crossbows use in-game was to facilitate stealthy delivery of sleep poison without shooting too big a hole in the slave-waiting-to-happen it fills this purpose admirably.*Cough*blowgun*cough*
Why use a simple weapon when you can spend a feat on a hand crossbow! :P
Poisoned sand tubes and Tube arrow shooters also seem more viable for stealth poisoning and are only martial weapons. The only thing exotic about a hand crossbow is it's price...
Repeating crossbows at least have a niche use.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My DM is of the opinion that a hand crossbow is actually strapped to your wrist like a cestus, leaving that hand "free" in much the same way as the hand you use your light shield is. Thus, at my tables you can wield two and reload each of them without having to dip two levels in a class whose only class feature you care about is the ability to reload your weapons.
I still haven't built a dual-crossbower despite that, mainly because you'd need the TWF feats AND the archery feats to pull it off, plus something to add to your damage rolls to even make it worthwhile.
I'd probably do it as a fighter with a 1-level dip of rogue, for 1d6 sneak attack when I can get it plus Weapon Training/Specialization and the ridiculous amounts of bonus feats you'd need to pull it off.
My DM is of the opinion that a hand crossbow is actually strapped to your wrist like a cestus, leaving that hand "free" in much the same way as the hand you use your light shield is. Thus, at my tables you can wield two and reload each of them without having to dip two levels in a class whose only class feature you care about is the ability to reload your weapons.
I still haven't built a dual-crossbower despite that, mainly because you'd need the TWF feats AND the archery feats to pull it off, plus something to add to your damage rolls to even make it worthwhile.
I'd probably do it as a fighter with a 1-level dip of rogue, for 1d6 sneak attack when I can get it plus Weapon Training/Specialization and the ridiculous amounts of bonus feats you'd need to pull it off.
Oh man, if that were my GM, I'd do a bolt ace/ninja combo for sure
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My DM is of the opinion that a hand crossbow is actually strapped to your wrist like a cestus, leaving that hand "free" in much the same way as the hand you use your light shield is. Thus, at my tables you can wield two and reload each of them without having to dip two levels in a class whose only class feature you care about is the ability to reload your weapons.
THAT would make it worth a feat. I approve!
Oh man, if that were my GM, I'd do a bolt ace/ninja combo for sure
Bolt ace/far strike monk for me. ;)
Bolt ace/far strike monk for me. ;)
Oh man, if that were my GM, I'd do a bolt ace/ninja combo for sure
While that certainly has more attribute synergy, why require a hand crossbow at all, when flurry acts like two weapon fight even with only one? Could do that with a light crossbow.
I like ninja due to the bonus SA damage going nicely with TWF and the swift action invisibility for full attacks against flat footed.
Bolt ace/far strike monk for me. ;)
Oh man, if that were my GM, I'd do a bolt ace/ninja combo for sureWhile that certainly has more attribute synergy, why require a hand crossbow at all, when flurry acts like two weapon fight even with only one? Could do that with a light crossbow.
I like ninja due to the bonus SA damage going nicely with TWF and the swift action invisibility for full attacks against flat footed.
The monk gets you a pile of free ranged feats and with how feat intensive ranged it, it's nice. Fast Thrower gives you shot on the run (with multiple attack as you level) for ranged attacks. Plus all the normal monk goodies like an unarmed strike and wis to ac.
The flurry with thrown is just icing and can allow for some cool backup weapons. For instance a foe out of react from your hand crossbow can be hit with your Throwing arrow cord.
As to why hand crossbows. If you're TWFing/rapid shot, it's less minuses (and they add up quick). I'd avoid ninja as I generally dislike the sneak attack mechanic. I've done a bolt ace/far strike gestalt before and it worked out quite well. I used a heavy crossbow though as I didn't have the cool bracer/hand crossbows option.