What exactly is the point of Exotic Weapon Proficiency?
Fluff-wise, the weapon should either be so difficult to use that special training is required, and/or so uncommon that learning to wield it requires more than a normal martial weapon user's standard training regimen.
Mechanics-wise, the weapon should be so much more powerful than a standard weapon that it requires a feat to balance it.
So, Bastard Sword and Hand Crossbow?
Yeah...
I read Exotic Weapons as Erotic Weapons a minute ago.
I need to stay out of the Succubus in a Grapple thread. It's starting to affect me.
Disagree, it is the 'exotic' not 'powerful' category. I would think 'exotic' should be the ones a person is least likely to get trained in as a standard professional. I think it fits into that perfectly fine. But that is my personal interpretation and I'm aware some disagree with it.Hand crossbow isn't and shouldn't be that great. There is no way a 1 handed crossbow is going to be as good as something larger. Is a pistol as good as an assault rifle in a firefight? Of course not.The issue really isn't the stats but the category. If these where simple weapons, no one would have a problem with them. The issue is that they are 'simple' exotic weapons. Exotic weapons should be great or at the very least better than simple and martial weapons.Ok, lets look at it from your point of view. Hand crossbows are SO different from light crossbows that they jump from simple, past martial to exotic? SO it's easier to use a small light crossbow than it is to use a normal hand crossbow? Now lets look at usefulness. Many classes could use a light missile weapon that's is unaffected by low strength. That's most dex builds. So on hardness of use or likeliness of wanting training, I'd find this explanation failing. Add to that a mechanical evaluation of the requirement of spending an exotic weapon feat fail to meet anyone cost/benefit analysis I've ever seen and this weapons a total fail.
An additional fail on the "least likely to get trained in" theory, look at some of the martial weapons every fighter learns. Sling-spears, tube arrow shooters, poison sand tubes, Syringe spears, Iron brushes and monks spades are ALL auto learned but the hand crossbow is to hard/exotic?...
I think the only reason it was put there in the first place was that it was a drow only weapon at start and it's been grandfathered into exotic ever since.
Hmm... Ok, I didn't say so different. It is not a common weapon that a professional warrior type would spend any significant time with. it fits that definition.
I said nothing about usefulness. I don't know where you are getting that.
If you look at the next paragraph from the one you quoted I agree that it is not difficult to use. If you are using that definition it should be in the simple weapons category.
Your second to last paragraph is more a statement that they did a more job of classifying a bunch of other weapons, not that the hand xbow is in the wrong group. I would agree with you on that.
I'm about 90% sure you are correct in your last paragraph. I think that probably is the reason they were originally in the exotic category and inertia is a powerful force.
I only disagreed with bolded portion of your original statement, "Exotic weapons should be great..." I don't think that is necessarily true.
I only disagreed with bolded portion of your original statement, "Exotic weapons should be great..." I don't think that is necessarily true.
Everything in the game should have a reason and purpose for being. Weapons that are harder to learn and obtain SHOULD be harder to obtain and learn for a reason. Hand crossbow fails at every turn. it's simple to learn and use, not even having to learn how to winch it like a heavy one. I don't see how it's harder to obtain than a monks spade of a tube launcher so total fail there.
"It is not a common weapon that a professional warrior type would spend any significant time with.": Compared to "Sling-spears, tube arrow shooters, poison sand tubes, Syringe spears, Iron brushes and monks spades", weapons that ARE "common weapon that a professional warrior type would spend any significant time with" by your standards? I have an easier time seeing that "professional warrior type" with a hand crossbow than a poison sand tube... Again, total fail for a reason for exotics.
Legacy/'it's always been that way' is about the only reason for exotic status.
PS: I said "Exotic weapons should be great or at the very least better than simple and martial weapons.". I stand by that. As a category above martial, they should be special in some way. Something should justify it's cost but nothing does for the hand crossbow. As/is, it's pretty much a waste of ink/space.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I only disagreed with bolded portion of your original statement, "Exotic weapons should be great..." I don't think that is necessarily true.Everything in the game should have a reason and purpose for being. Weapons that are harder to learn and obtain SHOULD be harder to obtain and learn for a reason. Hand crossbow fails at every turn. it's simple to learn and use, not even having to learn how to winch it like a heavy one. I don't see how it's harder to obtain than a monks spade of a tube launcher so total fail there.
"It is not a common weapon that a professional warrior type would spend any significant time with.": Compared to "Sling-spears, tube arrow shooters, poison sand tubes, Syringe spears, Iron brushes and monks spades", weapons that ARE "common weapon that a professional warrior type would spend any significant time with" by your standards? I have an easier time seeing that "professional warrior type" with a hand crossbow than a poison sand tube... Again, total fail for a reason for exotics.
Legacy/'it's always been that way' is about the only reason for exotic status.
PS: I said "Exotic weapons should be great or at the very least better than simple and martial weapons.". I stand by that. As a category above martial, they should be special in some way. Something should justify it's cost but nothing does for the hand crossbow. As/is, it's pretty much a waste of ink/space.
I will try again.
Exotic - {meanings which could be applicable to this discussion}1. of foreign origin or character; not native; introduced from abroad, but not fully naturalized or acclimatized:
2. strikingly unusual or strange in effect or appearance:
3. of a uniquely new or experimental nature:
That is not great or better than X. Something can very easily be exotic and yet totally worthless.
I have been looking for a different definition of exotic in the books. So far I have not found it.
Now in the history of the game exotic has been defined as: non-classically medieval weapons (oriental, firearms, drow, lasers, etc...), not usually used as a weapon, not a common weapon, or difficult to learn (dire flail). Or some combination of those. Depending upon which set of those you are using the hand crossbow may or may not fit into the exotic category.
I agree it is pretty simple to use, but it is also not commonly trained to warriors. RL History: As I recall it was the only thing allowed for elegant ladies to use for hunting (so of course no true man would touch one), assassins in a few cultures, and as a curiosity for sport hunting today.
Again, your whole second paragraph does not mean "Exotic should be better." What you wrote more closely means all those other weapons you mentioned were classified incorrectly.
I think "...Sling-spears, tube arrow shooters, poison sand tubes, Syringe spears, Iron brushes and monks spades..." should all be exotic weapons. They are unusual, rarely used by professionals, and extremely complex to use properly.
Think about it a monks spade, for example, is actually a pretty lousy weapon. It was used as a weapon because it could be carried by a peasant without him getting killed for it. Because it really isn't a good weapon. Yes, a small number of people are absolutely lethal with one. But that is because they spent an inordinate amount of time becoming an expert in its use.
Really it should require even more than just an exotic weapon proficiency. But game designers don't want to make it too difficult because fans want to use it.
Legacy is not the only possible reason for the hand crossbow being exotic. But I agree it is the most likely.
I never said the hand crossbow should be in the exotic category. I personally think that the fact it is so simple to operate should override the fact that it isn't normally used as a weapon by trained professions. Seems like it should be in the simple category to me.
But that has nothing to do with whether or not is great or better than anything else.