It fails on the Will Save front.Once again, "is not the absolute best at" is not the same as "fails". One of your most important stats is the one for Will saves and you have a built-in +2 bonus to saves against enchantment effects. If you're really worried about it, there are a vast array of Traits that increase Will saves in various ways, as well as Iron Will.
Your Will save will be fine.
It fails just as hard as any other class with a poor Will save.
Every point you put in Will, is a point you can't put in Str or Dex, which are your actual "do stuff" stats rather than your "Keep me from NOT being able to do stuff" stat.
You're no better at Will saves than a Fighter, or a Ranger, or a Brawler.
Or you can make Wisdom whatever you want on your low-will-save character and invest in things like the cap of free thinker or the Iron Will and Steadfast Personality feat to close the gap.
Or you can make Wisdom whatever you want on your low-will-save character and invest in things like the cap of free thinker or the Iron Will and Steadfast Personality feat to close the gap.
LOL Steadfast Personality? How often do you see high charisma's on a monk...
Still Mind only applies to enchantments tho.
Which is.. what? About 90ish percent of all will saves?
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You sure about that?
Bestow Curse and Cause Fear aren't.
Including: Glitterdust, Stunning Barrier, Colorspray, if undead Chill Touch, Isolate, Vision of hell, and many others.
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I'm not happy with the lowered will save either, but monk still has better will saves than a fighter or brawler.Most Unchained monks are going to have Will saves comparable to sorcerers or wizards at the same levels, without touching feats, traits or still mind.
That is Unacceptable!!! It must have triple or more! Maybe just make it immune to any effect it wants to be as long as you only have monk levels. That's a good way to stop multiclassing
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Jesus christ is it REALLY so unreasonable to want a class based around being a Wis based master of his own mind and body to be better at controlling his own mind and body than other classes?
It's not like we're asking for the power f*%+ing cosmic, just Good Will progression + Wis.
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The way weaker will saves are being argued for, you would think the monk having a good will save was a problem that warranted nerfing. It is okay to not be upseabout the nerf, but it was still completely unnecessary and A NERF NO ONE WOULD EVER WANT OR THINK OF ASKING FOR. Never in any monk balance discussion was "thematically good mental defenses" ever considered a bad thing.
Jesus christ is it REALLY so unreasonable to want a class based around being a Wis based master of his own mind and body to be better at controlling his own mind and body than other classes?
It's not like we're asking for the power f@$*ing cosmic, just Good Will progression + Wis.
Only divine casters can do that. And those crazy Empyreal sorcerers. But those come with cosmic powers too.
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No one is arguing for weaker will saves. I hate the will save reduction. What we are saying is that even with the weaker will save progression, in practice, monk will saves are equal to sorc/wiz will saves, and better than other martial will saves.
It's not the end of the world. I would have capped IUS damage at 1d6 before scrapping the will save, but the new monk has a lot going for it even with the poor will save.
ill say that honestly i would be less upset at the lower will save if there was some means to address the MADness of the class--since the monk could afford to invest more in their wis at that point to offset it and boost all their other class stuff (more wis = more ac/ki pool/ability DCs/etc etc).
The way weaker will saves are being argued for, you would think the monk having a good will save was a problem that warranted nerfing. It is okay to not be upseabout the nerf, but it was still completely unnecessary and A NERF NO ONE WOULD EVER WANT OR THINK OF ASKING FOR. Never in any monk balance discussion was "thematically good mental defenses" ever considered a bad thing.
I dont think anyone argued for a weaker save. They are saying it is not such a bad thing. The two are not the same.
Just to be clear I think the weaker will save was a mistake. I am just clearing up what is actually being said.
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Jesus christ is it REALLY so unreasonable to want a class based around being a Wis based master of his own mind and body to be better at controlling his own mind and body than other classes?
It's not like we're asking for the power f!@&ing cosmic, just Good Will progression + Wis.
Ah, but you're questioning the sanctified perfection of Holy Paizo's divine writ. Some people are very offended by that kind of heresy.
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Ah, but you're questioning the sanctified perfection of Holy Paizo's divine writ. Some people are very offended by that kind of heresy.Jesus christ is it REALLY so unreasonable to want a class based around being a Wis based master of his own mind and body to be better at controlling his own mind and body than other classes?
It's not like we're asking for the power f!@&ing cosmic, just Good Will progression + Wis.
More, just that everyone that's ever played a low will save character is incredibly unimpressed by the complaints.
Rangers are actually a great point of comparison, since they're a full BAB class with wisdom as a secondary stat and have poor will save progression.
I'm not aware of any forum trend complaining that rangers are terrible because they never pass will saves.
The Unchained monk not having all good saves did surprise me, but it's in line with how other other full BAB classes are built.
Heh. Paladin's the only full BAB class that actually has good will save progression. I had to go looking through them all to see if there were ANY that did.
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I'll throw this in -- I'm currently thinking of letting the monk's AC Bonus add a (for now untyped) bonus to their Will saves as well.
It won't kick in until LV4 (so no dipping in for it, which it seems Paizo's fear was), but combined with a monk's expected Wisdom bonus, I think it could be a solid and scaling solution without changing too many class features.
Contributor
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Ah, but you're questioning the sanctified perfection of Holy Paizo's divine writ. Some people are very offended by that kind of heresy.Jesus christ is it REALLY so unreasonable to want a class based around being a Wis based master of his own mind and body to be better at controlling his own mind and body than other classes?
It's not like we're asking for the power f!@&ing cosmic, just Good Will progression + Wis.
More, just that everyone that's ever played a low will save character is incredibly unimpressed by the complaints.
Rangers are actually a great point of comparison, since they're a full BAB class with wisdom as a secondary stat and have poor will save progression.
I'm not aware of any forum trend complaining that rangers are terrible because they never pass will saves.
The Unchained monk not having all good saves did surprise me, but it's in line with how other other full BAB classes are built.
Heh. Paladin's the only full BAB class that actually has good will save progression. I had to go looking through them all to see if there were ANY that did.
And I believe that the paladin got it in Pathfinder - if I recall (been a while), they were Fort-only in 3.5. :)
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Even if the paladin were still Fort only, it's immunities way more than make up for that. They will never cower or try to kill their teammates (Two of the worst things a will save can do to a character). Them having a good will save now pretty much solidifies them as being Batman levels of mind=impregnable. Not to mention the paladin can afford to invest more in Chr and Str (Between Lay on Hands and Full-plate, they aren't as desperate for Dex and Con) than a Monk can in Wis and Str (We already know the reasons why), so they can have a better Chr than a monk does Wis.
The disparity was aided a little with d10s, but a weaker will save is now another weakness to shore up that was never a concern before. Do the buffs make up for this? Yeah, they do. Doesn't make it any less annoying for me to have to contemplate will boosting abilities for a monk now. I see this all the time with fighting games. A mentality of, "We gave an objectively weak character something good... let's take away a strength while we are at it." Not saying that the monk isn't stronger in a lot of ways now (though admittedly a little less monastic and a little more shounen in my mind), there are just several facets of it I am not a huge fan of.
Let me be clear though, since I guess in my last post I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't claiming anyone thought the weaker will save was a good thing. As I said, I am fine with you being okay with it. By
"argued for" I more meant "justified." Sorry if I threw shade at anyone by accident.
Honestly, with their immunities and charisma-to-saves the Paladin would probably still have very functional defenses if it was reflex-only. Paladin defenses are insane and one of the big reasons why it's such a strong martial class.
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Ah, but you're questioning the sanctified perfection of Holy Paizo's divine writ. Some people are very offended by that kind of heresy.Jesus christ is it REALLY so unreasonable to want a class based around being a Wis based master of his own mind and body to be better at controlling his own mind and body than other classes?
It's not like we're asking for the power f!@&ing cosmic, just Good Will progression + Wis.
More, just that everyone that's ever played a low will save character is incredibly unimpressed by the complaints.
Rangers are actually a great point of comparison, since they're a full BAB class with wisdom as a secondary stat and have poor will save progression.
I'm not aware of any forum trend complaining that rangers are terrible because they never pass will saves.
You know what Ranger DOES have though? Actual class features he can use more than a handful of times per day.
And you know what he DOESN'T have? Repeated references to strength of Will being the DEFINING FEATURE OF CHARACTERS WITH THE CLASS.
The Unchained monk not having all good saves did surprise me, but it's in line with how other other full BAB classes are built.
Heh. Paladin's the only full BAB class that actually has good will save progression. I had to go looking through them all to see if there were ANY that did.
It's "in line" but that doesn't make it a GOOD feature. There was no reason besides "People might dip the class and actually have good Will saves for once!" to lower it.
While the Unchained Monk will have good saves due to Wisdom, its not really the point. What the base saves represent, much like BAB and Skill Points, are your training and learning. What this means is that a Monk does not get trained to fortify their mind despite all the flavour text, references, descriptions and such. While one needs high Wisdom to function as a monk (if even), it means that currently at the monastery, they train to steel their will as much as any rogue, knave or Brawler would. Even those with low Wisdom, perhaps those who are newer or less worldly, used to have high Will after coming out of this harsh mental, spiritual and physical training; because its the training itself thats important.
Basically thats a huge disjoint for me as a player.
Seeing an iconic and unique aspect stripped away is honestly concerning, as it starts to flatten classes out and make them more samey slowly over time. Taking away the unique aspects of a class instead of nerfing the less unique aspects only turns to make things more of the same. Part of this comes from the obsession with Linked HD and BAB (which is frankly a little silly).
For instance, they could have shown the Monk's fragile physical form (in comparison to the more rugged Ranger* and the champion of justice Paladin), by leaving a d8 HD and giving it full BAB. What this shows is that they are trained in combat, they do practice their art, their defenses and their overall speed of attack, but they do so at the expense of their physical body. Perhaps its due to the lack of heavier armor in their training which takes the focus away, or perhaps its due to their studies taking up other time, such as their mind's own strength of resolve.
To show the idea of Samey, just look at the Brawler and Unchained Monk. They are slowly getting closer and closer to each other. This potentially leads down to the Rogue/Investigator/Slayer problem again; and its overall bad to have that much redundancy. With redundancy comes the problem where they are directly competing in many ways, and to buff one usually leaves one much less undesirable.
That and why can't we have a Martial who can fight back safely against mind control and reality warps? (Paladin notwithstanding)
*Yes I know they used to have d8 hit dice as well
Ah, but you're questioning the sanctified perfection of Holy Paizo's divine writ. Some people are very offended by that kind of heresy.Jesus christ is it REALLY so unreasonable to want a class based around being a Wis based master of his own mind and body to be better at controlling his own mind and body than other classes?
It's not like we're asking for the power f!@&ing cosmic, just Good Will progression + Wis.
More, just that everyone that's ever played a low will save character is incredibly unimpressed by the complaints.
Rangers are actually a great point of comparison, since they're a full BAB class with wisdom as a secondary stat and have poor will save progression.
I'm not aware of any forum trend complaining that rangers are terrible because they never pass will saves.
You know what Ranger DOES have though? Actual class features he can use more than a handful of times per day.
And you know what he DOESN'T have? Repeated references to strength of Will being the DEFINING FEATURE OF CHARACTERS WITH THE CLASS.
It's "in line" but that doesn't make it a GOOD feature. There was no reason besides "People might dip the class and actually have good Will saves for once!" to lower it.The Unchained monk not having all good saves did surprise me, but it's in line with how other other full BAB classes are built.
Heh. Paladin's the only full BAB class that actually has good will save progression. I had to go looking through them all to see if there were ANY that did.
Don't you usually reprimand people for caring about fluff?
After rechecking the core and unchained class descriptions... you might be remembering flavor text that's not actually there.
Also, you don't consider style strike, flurry, fast movement, etc. to be class features?
Just so we're clear?
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While the Unchained Monk will have good saves due to Wisdom, its not really the point. What the base saves represent, much like BAB and Skill Points, are your training and learning. What this means is that a Monk does not get trained to fortify their mind despite all the flavour text, references, descriptions and such. While one needs high Wisdom to function as a monk (if even), it means that currently at the monastery, they train to steel their will as much as any rogue, knave or Brawler would. Even those with low Wisdom, perhaps those who are newer or less worldly, used to have high Will after coming out of this harsh mental, spiritual and physical training; because its the training itself thats important.
Being very selective in who is trained is also very iconic for the Monk/Martial Artist tradition.
So you can say that when the Monasteries choose who they are going to train that they only accept students who already have a fortified mind (ie high Wisdom) and so that does not need to be a focus of their training.
And then the mental training that they do receive doesn't have to be spent on anything as prosaic as a Will save.
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Ah, but you're questioning the sanctified perfection of Holy Paizo's divine writ. Some people are very offended by that kind of heresy.Jesus christ is it REALLY so unreasonable to want a class based around being a Wis based master of his own mind and body to be better at controlling his own mind and body than other classes?
It's not like we're asking for the power f!@&ing cosmic, just Good Will progression + Wis.
More, just that everyone that's ever played a low will save character is incredibly unimpressed by the complaints.
Rangers are actually a great point of comparison, since they're a full BAB class with wisdom as a secondary stat and have poor will save progression.
I'm not aware of any forum trend complaining that rangers are terrible because they never pass will saves.
You know what Ranger DOES have though? Actual class features he can use more than a handful of times per day.
And you know what he DOESN'T have? Repeated references to strength of Will being the DEFINING FEATURE OF CHARACTERS WITH THE CLASS.
It's "in line" but that doesn't make it a GOOD feature. There was no reason besides "People might dip the class and actually have good Will saves for once!" to lower it.The Unchained monk not having all good saves did surprise me, but it's in line with how other other full BAB classes are built.
Heh. Paladin's the only full BAB class that actually has good will save progression. I had to go looking through them all to see if there were ANY that did.
Don't you usually reprimand people for caring about fluff?
After rechecking the core and unchained class descriptions... you might be remembering flavor text that's not actually there.
Also, you don't consider style strike, flurry, fast movement, etc. to be class features?
Just so we're clear?
Um... there is NO way you can look at the new monk and NOT see it revolves around spending ki from a pitifully small pool. Can you find some abilities that don't? Sure but you pretty much listed them all and there are far more that require it.
"Physical and mental perfection—that is the life goal of every monk. For these skilled warriors, martial prowess and mental clarity are one and the same.": Mental perfection and mental clarity don't say to me the same will saves as a rogue. Seems like the flavor text he's thinking of is there for all to see. His only mistake may be in the exact wording, not the meaning behind it.
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I have never reprimanded someone for caring about fluff. I HAVE pointed out that fluff text does not constitute rules text in most cases, and that re-fluffing should be done.
However I've also pretty consistently advocated that each class should fulfill the role it says it should. It's part of the reason I'm so down on the Rogue; It does NOTHING its description suggests.
Previously, this was the bit I hated about the Monk description:
"Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most."
Especially the bolded part. It's just so BLATANTLY untrue. Th Unchained Monk fixes this (with Flying Kick, and Abundant Step being lower level), but breaks this:
"Monks tread the path of discipline, and those with the will to endure that path discover within themselves not what they are, but what they are meant to be."
There is nothing in the new Monk that really implies "discipline and the will to endure". It's the Brawler with some Ki stuff.
As for the second bit, look at the things listed:
-Style Strikes (unlimited use, versatile in function, overall pretty neat).
-Fast Movement (a slight speed buff that is obsoleted by the most common buff in the game)
-Flurry (it's not quite TWfing any more...but it's certainly not THAT much different either).
-Ki Powers (the aforementioned "You can use these a handful of times if you're lucky").
To add insult to injury, you don't get most of your INTERESTING features until 4th/5th level. Because dipping is bad, mmkay? :rolleyes:
Compare/Contrast the Ranger:
-Favored Enemy (unlimited use, usually applicable since many campaigns are themed)
-Favored Terrain (ditto)
-Hunter's Bond (you get a free pet with every purchase!)
-Spells (nuff said)
-Combat Style (ignore prerequisites, and get to choose from several different lists that actually let you tailor your Feats to your chosen style of play, rather than the Monk's which tries to force you to change your style of play to follow the Bonus Feats).
-Track (a damn good boost to Survival)
-Wid Empathy (meh, but interesting)
That's the s~!$ you get in the same levels the Monk gets a lackluster boost to speed, an extra attack (There's a TWFing Combat Stye BTW), ONE Ki Power, and a +2 to saves against a certain subset of effects. All for that BEFORE he even gets Style Strikes.
Because...dipping? Who knows how the mind of Buhlman works.
While the Unchained Monk will have good saves due to Wisdom, its not really the point. What the base saves represent, much like BAB and Skill Points, are your training and learning. What this means is that a Monk does not get trained to fortify their mind despite all the flavour text, references, descriptions and such. While one needs high Wisdom to function as a monk (if even), it means that currently at the monastery, they train to steel their will as much as any rogue, knave or Brawler would. Even those with low Wisdom, perhaps those who are newer or less worldly, used to have high Will after coming out of this harsh mental, spiritual and physical training; because its the training itself thats important.Being very selective in who is trained is also very iconic for the Monk/Martial Artist tradition.
So you can say that when the Monasteries choose who they are going to train that they only accept students who already have a fortified mind (ie high Wisdom) and so that does not need to be a focus of their training.
And then the mental training that they do receive doesn't have to be spent on anything as prosaic as a Will save.
While I agree that being selective is a thing that is steeped in tradition, so is the trope of taking someone who is less than formidable under your wing and training them to become more than capable themselves; allowing them to overcome their natural inclinations of being weak minded and being turned to more than that.
A Will save is more than just a die roll. It represents your resistance to mental influence, to be taken from your path, to be shown fear, forcibly being made into something you are not. Perhaps I romanticize a little, but I think it is something core.
Obviously opinion.
Whelp I'll be switching back to the original versions of ki powers as well as substite wisdom for con for hit points for monk levels, return still mind to third level, let them substitute wis for con on ANY related check at 4th, allow style strikes with any unarmed strikes and let them pick up another every 3rd level after the first, and let them pick up style feats at 4th ala MoMS...god that's a lot of house rules for a fix...
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I agree with Hubaris and posters about the Will save. Unfortunately we can complain all we want and Paizo is going to stick to their guns. Unfortunately instead of dropping HD to d8, they dropped Will to poor, in upgrading BAB and flurry. Unfortunately, it's unlikely they will print a strong Will archetype anytime soon if at all. Fortunately, we can houserule.
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Again, I know this question belongs on homebrew more than likely, but I wanted to ask the traffic of people coming through here (selfish of me I know):
I already grant the benefits of Flying Kick (the style strike) as an inherent benefit of Fast Movement. That is, without needing to use a special ability, a 3rd level monk can full-flurry and move 10 feet, a 6th level monk can do so and move 20 feet, a 9th level monk 30 feet, and so on, interspersing attacks as he pleases.
Now! I need a cool ability to replace Flying Kick (as printed) that builds further upon the mobility concept, short of going full-pounce. Which do you like:
1) FK lets the monk ignore difficult terrain prior to making a kick attack.
2) FK lets the monk ignore movement-based AoOs prior to making a kick attack.
3) FK lets the monk charge through occupied spaces prior to making a kick attack.
I am partial to #3 because the first two can be accomplished with feat investment. What do you guys think?
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I'm just glad I don't play PFS and DO allow third party content.
Between Stalker, Guru, Meditant, Deadly Fistt, LIC Mystic, and Mnemonic. The Monk has some stiff competition for its niche in both lore and gameplay.
I agree with Hubaris and posters about the Will save. Unfortunately we can complain all we want and Paizo is going to stick to their guns. Unfortunately instead of dropping HD to d8, they dropped Will to poor, in upgrading BAB and flurry. Unfortunately, it's unlikely they will print a strong Will archetype anytime soon if at all. Fortunately, we can houserule.
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Again, I know this question belongs on homebrew more than likely, but I wanted to ask the traffic of people coming through here (selfish of me I know):
I already grant the benefits of Flying Kick (the style strike) as an inherent benefit of Fast Movement. That is, without needing to use a special ability, a 3rd level monk can full-flurry and move 10 feet, a 6th level monk can do so and move 20 feet, a 9th level monk 30 feet, and so on, interspersing attacks as he pleases.
Now! I need a cool ability to replace Flying Kick (as printed) that builds further upon the mobility concept, short of going full-pounce. Which do you like:
1) FK lets the monk ignore difficult terrain prior to making a kick attack.
2) FK lets the monk ignore movement-based AoOs prior to making a kick attack.
3) FK lets the monk charge through occupied spaces prior to making a kick attack.I am partial to #3 because the first two can be accomplished with feat investment. What do you guys think?
As a suggestion, not a kick attack make it a weapon attack, there are plenty of Wuxia films or Wuxia influenced films that have these flying sword attacks.
Also gives an option for weapon-based monk builds to use.
If the monk is allowed to move through occupied spaces I think its reasonable that the monk has to make a combat maneuver check or an acrobatic check, maybe with a bonus?
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Agreed about the weapon attack in general. But for now I want to modify the "Flying Kick" style strike, before I branch out.
For option #3, I was thinking allowing the monk to declare a "special charge" in which they could not only charge through their own allies, but through other enemies (rolling Acrobatics to avoid AoOs at reduced speed), or through difficult terrain (at reduced speed), all so long as they do so in a straight line moving at least 10 actual feet prior to the attack.
To take the conversation in a slightly different direction, what's the purpose of having a mandatory lawful alignment on the unchained monk if it's apparently not going to do anything neat for them? Even the new class description defines them as warriors for whom "martial prowess and mental clarity are one and the same". Well, what form does the mental clarity take now? Their ki-focused features, including ki pool itself, didn't get that much better, if it improved at all in the final summation. If it's supposed to be the new class feature of Flawless Mind, why does the monk have to wait until level 19 to reach that level of clarity? They can't harden their body using mind over matter anymore to be immune to poison completely. Where is the payoff for their "incredible discipline and focus" that we've been told is part of the mandatory lawful alignment? Just a thought.
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Wow, just noticed that flying kick only lets you move up to the fast movement bonus. So you'll be waiting till 18th level for it to actually let you go as far as a pounce or pummeling charge. Also since it isn't a charge dragon style doesn't apply.
Flying kick is short range and is designed that way. Just because it functions differently to pounce or pummelling charge doesn't make it a candidate for condemnation.
Diversity in relation to abilities is a good thing, provides different experiences of Pathfinder.
Otherwise the experience of Pathfinder will become a simulacra, the same thing but called something else.
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Flying kick is short range and is designed that way. Just because it functions differently to pounce or pummelling charge doesn't make it a candidate for condemnation.
Diversity in relation to abilities is a good thing, provides different experiences of Pathfinder.
Otherwise the experience of Pathfinder will become a simulacra, the same thing but called something else.
Except it's not just "diverse" it fulfills its function to a lesser capacity than any of those. It has about a quarter of the range and none of the other extra goodies that Pounce and Pummeling Style provide (an extra +2 to-hit for the former, and that plus giving a big middle finger to DR and super duper crits).
A good example of making it diverse, but equally as powerful would be letting it, say, be used to full attack flying creatures (you Flying Kick upward, and have enough time to finish your full attack sequence before falling back down).
Flying kick is short range and is designed that way. Just because it functions differently to pounce or pummelling charge doesn't make it a candidate for condemnation.
Diversity in relation to abilities is a good thing, provides different experiences of Pathfinder.
Otherwise the experience of Pathfinder will become a simulacra, the same thing but called something else.
Except it's not just "diverse" it fulfills its function to a lesser capacity than any of those. It has about a quarter of the range and none of the other extra goodies that Pounce and Pummeling Style provide (an extra +2 to-hit for the former, and that plus giving a big middle finger to DR and super duper crits).
A good example of making it diverse, but equally as powerful would be letting it, say, be used to full attack flying creatures (you Flying Kick upward, and have enough time to finish your full attack sequence before falling back down).
RAI flying kick does allow you to attack flying creatures. If a Monk executed a flying kick at an opponent that was behind a 5 ft. x5 ft., 20 ft deep pit would the monk fall into the pit? I would say no, and if he can do that he can certainly attack flying creatures.