I tried Nimble Guardian recently, started at level 7. I took the feats in bit different order and went catfolk as race for fun. With amulet of mighty fists +0 shock and Janni Rush and Dragon style/ferocity the amount of damage on a charge was ludicrous, 4d6+1d6+str*2 on one claw and str*1,5 on second claw plus 2d6+1d6+str on bite. Nearly one-shotted CR 7 creature. Fun times.
At level 9 add 2 more claws for even more damage. Get a mage or cleric to cast Greater magic weapon on your unarmed strikes and use it for your claws with feral combat training.
WagnerSika wrote: I tried Nimble Guardian recently, started at level 7. I took the feats in bit different order and went catfolk as race for fun. With amulet of mighty fists +0 shock and Janni Rush and Dragon style/ferocity the amount of damage on a charge was ludicrous, 4d6+1d6+str*2 on one claw and str*1,5 on second claw plus 2d6+1d6+str on bite. Nearly one-shotted CR 7 creature. Fun times.
At level 9 add 2 more claws for even more damage. Get a mage or cleric to cast Greater magic weapon on your unarmed strikes and use it for your claws with feral combat training.
No lie, the Nimble Guardian is one of the best Monk Archetypes out there and the reason why I don't completely believe that Monks are totally shafted.
prototype00
Avelahn wrote: Of course! You don't only need to use your hands to do Unarmed Strikes! Thanks :) Remember that what Multiattack does is reduce the penalty of Secondary Natural Attacks from -5 to -2, and if you combine Unarmed Strikes with your Natural Attacks, usually all your natural attacks become Secondary.
Also, you might want to be using a lot of secondary natural attacks anyway, such as if you were turning into a Giant Octopus. Tentacles are Secondary Natural Attacks.
DerderdieCottensniggelt wrote: is der any way to get constrict (except for the final embrace feats)? becaus all i can find are items with a fixed dmg of 1d6... You mean Anaconda Coils? That's one way. With Wild Shape, you can polymorph into creatures with Constrict, such as the Giant Octopus mentioned above.
Woodoodoo, on the The Songbird of Doom: A Guide to a most unlikely tank and Mechanism of Mass Destruction (Warning: GMs will hate you) thread, brought up the Martial Versatility Feat, and that is a Feat that every Kaiju character should consider. Martial Versatility lets you apply any single-weapon Feat to all other related weapons. So, go ahead and learn Feral Combat Training and Improved Natural Attack for your Claws, then take Martial Versatility for both Feats, and now you can apply it to every natural attack no matter what Animal you Polymorph into! That should really help if you want to polymorph into a Megaraptor with Bite, Claws, AND Talons.
Hmm, with a requirement of Fighter 4 and Human, it wasn't super desirable for my already heavily multiclassed Monk/Druids.
prototype00
prototype00 wrote: Hmm, with a requirement of Fighter 4 and Human, it wasn't super desirable for my already heavily multiclassed Monk/Druids.
prototype00
Oh, if you are referring to Martial Versatility, I must disagree that the fact that it requires you be human is much of a problem at all. Since you will be taking levels in Druid and be using Wildshape, the lack of things like Darkvision, Scent, and Natural Attacks will be well-offset by your Wildshape.
4 levels in Fighter--or Warpriest--is more of a problem, but Martial Builds are Feat-intensive anyway, so you can put those levels of Fighter to good use. Going Warpriest instead of going Monk is not an unreasonable option, since Sacred Weapon works similarly to Monk Unarmed Strikes, and you don't need to take Feral Combat Training even to apply Sacred Weapon to your natural attacks: only Weapon Focus. And if this is for a PFS character, there is no other way to get Improved Natural Attack applied to more than 1 natural attack.
I just know that Martial Versatility can be applied to a Wild Shaping melee build do devastating effect, and I don't think your guide would be complete without a mention.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: prototype00 wrote: Hmm, with a requirement of Fighter 4 and Human, it wasn't super desirable for my already heavily multiclassed Monk/Druids.
prototype00
Oh, if you are referring to Martial Versatility, I must disagree that the fact that it requires you be human is much of a problem at all. Since you will be taking levels in Druid and be using Wildshape, the lack of things like Darkvision, Scent, and Natural Attacks will be well-offset by your Wildshape.
4 levels in Fighter--or Warpriest--is more of a problem, but Martial Builds are Feat-intensive anyway, so you can put those levels of Fighter to good use. Going Warpriest instead of going Monk is not an unreasonable option, since Sacred Weapon works similarly to Monk Unarmed Strikes, and you don't need to take Feral Combat Training even to apply Sacred Weapon to your natural attacks: only Weapon Focus. And if this is for a PFS character, there is no other way to get Improved Natural Attack applied to more than 1 natural attack.
I just know that Martial Versatility can be applied to a Wild Shaping melee build do devastating effect, and I don't think your guide would be complete without a mention. Oh, you've got it in your guide already. My bad.
Welp, that errata sucked.
Yep. Who would have thought that the developers might stalk the advice forum looking for combos that escaped the initial beta testing.
A couple of the errata changes were directly targeted at this style build. Not sure what would be the best way forward from here.
I think the FCT MAY have killed the build, but I'm not sure. Sad, as it one of the most fun builds I have ever played.
MisterDoug wrote: I think the FCT MAY have killed the build, but I'm not sure. Sad, as it one of the most fun builds I have ever played. By the way yes, Almost killed, but we could still apply dragon, snake, crane style and almost a few thing, but we can forget the augmentation damage of the fist...
No more monastic legacy or monk's robe...
Its still decent for size bonuses if you want to fight purely unarmed strike. Conqueror Ooze and Hungry Hungry Hippo still work.
It is a shame, I do agree.
prototype00
I think you just have to be at peace with focusing on fun melee controller things with grapple and trip.
I'm making an trip focused wolf wildshaper that basically is a talking dog 24 hours a day. Feral Hunter 4 / Unchained Monk 1 / Lore Warden 2 at 7th (when the build hits its stride).
1. (1) Dirty Fighting (Combat) → retrain to xxxxxxxxx @6th
1. (H) Toughness → retrain to Weapon Focus (bite) @ 4th
2. (Hunter2) Precise Shot
3. (3) Improved Trip
5. (5) Shaping Focus
5. (Monk1) Improved Unarmed Strike & Combat Reflexes
6. (Fighter1) Vicious Stomp [req Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike]
6. (Lore Warden 2) Combat Expertise
7. (Fighter2) Feral Combat Training
7. (7) Greater Trip
gets +6 BAB (for greater trip ASAP), can flurry with bite, gets AoO if trip (Greater Trip) or if enemy falls prone (Vicious Stomp). Probably should do FCT at 6th instead of Stomp. Druid is better than Feral Hunter, but I just like the flavor of the Feral Hunter. Could drop the human race, instead just Dirty Fighting, replaced with Weapon Focus at 7th to qualify for Feral Combat Training. In which case a skinwalker would make a very flavorful build (werewolf & wolf guy!). At 4th get dog form. At 6th Ring of Eloquence + Beast of the Society = 24 hours of talking canine form. Pelt of the Beast is actually easy to Craft Wondrous if you had a spare feat.
You can probably find room to do 2 levels or ranger or slayer for Rapid Shot. Beteween the Hunter precise shot and rapid shot (without point blank shot requirement) a Feral Hunter / Slayer makes a good switch hitter at lower levels. The animal focus can switch from Dex to Str as you drop your bow and move in for flail tripping.
Flurry is now a better option for FoF than before. Behemoth hippo flurrying with bite, dragon style and ferocity is nice. Add some buffs like Strong jaw, Vine strike and elemental damage from AoMF and you are getting like 8d8+2d6+2*str on first strike 1,5 str rest. Getting pounce would be delicious but might be hard to pull off.
Too bad almost all damage increasing druid spells have duration on 1 min/level.
For grappler builds, have a look at the Raging grappler rage power, then the flurrying hippo with 8d8+lots bite with grab on it.
Jack Brightbuilder wrote: MisterDoug wrote: I think the FCT MAY have killed the build, but I'm not sure. Sad, as it one of the most fun builds I have ever played. By the way yes, Almost killed, but we could still apply dragon, snake, crane style and almost a few thing, but we can forget the augmentation damage of the fist...
No more monastic legacy or monk's robe... You can take levels in Warpriest instead of Monk, pumping up Sacred Weapon Damage instead of Monk Unarmed Strike Damage and Feral Combat Training.
They also changed the bonus Feats for MOMS Monks, so you have to pay full price for Snake Fang, but it's worth it.
What will happen if we take Hive Totem Ferocity while wildshaped in a Hippo with strongjaw and the Improved Natural attack (Bite)?
Would it stack to get 16d8 or 18d8 of bite damage?
Jack Brightbuilder wrote: What will happen if we take Hive Totem Ferocity while wildshaped in a Hippo with strongjaw and the Improved Natural attack (Bite)?
Would it stack to get 16d8 or 18d8 of bite damage?
I don't know about Hive Totem Ferocity, but Strong Jaw and Improved Natural Attack don't stack. I might acquire a Wand of Strong Jaw even if I took INA for just such an occasion when I had time to buff myself 2 sizes instead of 1, but that would be to get 2 sizes instead of 1, not 3 instead of 1.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Jack Brightbuilder wrote: What will happen if we take Hive Totem Ferocity while wildshaped in a Hippo with strongjaw and the Improved Natural attack (Bite)?
Would it stack to get 16d8 or 18d8 of bite damage?
I don't know about Hive Totem Ferocity, but Strong Jaw and Improved Natural Attack don't stack. I might acquire a Wand of Strong Jaw even if I took INA for just such an occasion when I had time to buff myself 2 sizes instead of 1, but that would be to get 2 sizes instead of 1, not 3 instead of 1. Thank you Scott.
By the way I already reread Hive Totem Toxicity Power and doesn't stack here in this build.
What I recently discovered is this Awesome Belt
Would this increase apply to the charging hit with the Janny Style on a charge attack with pounce?
Jack Brightbuilder wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Jack Brightbuilder wrote: What will happen if we take Hive Totem Ferocity while wildshaped in a Hippo with strongjaw and the Improved Natural attack (Bite)?
Would it stack to get 16d8 or 18d8 of bite damage?
I don't know about Hive Totem Ferocity, but Strong Jaw and Improved Natural Attack don't stack. I might acquire a Wand of Strong Jaw even if I took INA for just such an occasion when I had time to buff myself 2 sizes instead of 1, but that would be to get 2 sizes instead of 1, not 3 instead of 1. Thank you Scott.
By the way I already reread Hive Totem Toxicity Power and doesn't stack here in this build.
What I recently discovered is this Awesome Belt
Would this increase apply to the charging hit with the Janny Style on a charge attack with pounce? I don't see why not. With Janni Rush, you roll the dice twice and add them together. With the Belt of Thuderous Charge, those dice are treated as if they are 1 size bigger. Janni Tempest gives you a +4 on your Bull Rush and Trip. The belt gives you a +2. Both are unspecified types of bonuses, and they come from very different sources, so they should stack. And Janni Style only increases your AC (offsets the penalty) when charging or when being flanked.
My only reservation is that the Belt' seems like an expensive magic item for a small benefit. I'd prefer to get my virtual size increase via Improved Natural Attack or Strong Jaw.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: What I recently discovered is this Awesome Belt
Would this increase apply to the charging hit with the Janny Style on a charge attack with pounce?
Scott Wilhelm wrote: I don't see why not. With Janni Rush, you roll the dice twice and add them together. With the Belt of Thuderous Charge, those dice are treated as if they are 1 size bigger. Janni Tempest gives you a +4 on your Bull Rush and Trip. The belt gives you a +2. Both are unspecified types of bonuses, and they come from very different sources, so they should stack. And Janni Style only increases your AC (offsets the penalty) when charging or when being flanked.
My only reservation is that the Belt' seems like an expensive magic item for a small benefit. I'd prefer to get my virtual size increase via Improved Natural Attack or Strong Jaw.
Well, the 6k of the extra belt's cost is a good fee to pay. Worth it.
Now, I will have indeed the Strong Jaw already cast on me, and wildshaped on a dire tiger.
So it would it stack again between Strong Jaw and the belt?
Damage with claws will be:
2d4 base - 2d6/3d6 strong jaw - 4d6 with the belt and 8d6 with janny rush in a pounce attack.
Making about 32d6 for the 4 claws (2+2 rake) and 6d6 for the bite.
Correct?
No, virtual size increases do not stack. There was an FAQ about that. Real size increases do not stack with real size increases. Virtual ones don't stack with virtual ones, but real size increases stack with virtual ones. So with the Shaping Focus Feat and/or enough levels in Druid, you can Wildshape to size Huge, then cast Strong Jaw on yourself and gain an effective size increase of Colossal, say by Wildshaping into a Triceratops instead of a Dire Tiger, and that's about as big as you can get, effectively or otherwise. Other spells to increase Strength will stack with the size increase to strength, as will spells such as Magic Fang and Weapon Against Evil.
But the OP and contributors to the thread were also counting on levels in Monk combined with the Feral Combat Training and Monastic Legacy feats to also increase the Base Damage, and now that can't happen. I've been putting together a build that uses Warpriest Sacred Weapon Damage in lieu of Monk Unarmed Strike Damage, and that has been bearing fruit.
One thing you might consider for a charging build is taking the Leadership Feat and get yourself a Cavalier Cohort who will ride you instead of his or her regular Mount. Under the circumstances, I feel like you should be able to take a Cavalier or some other human-rider as your Animal Companion, anyway, but that would require a houserule. The point being to have your rider take advantage of a lance attack from a charging mount (you) doing double damage. And your Cavalier can take feats like Trample and Spirited Charge. From a roleplaying perspective, it's an interesting, but not unprecedented twist having the horse being the hero and the knight being the sidekick.
I'm quite fond of the idea of building off of Bull Rushing for a Charging build. Take Mercilous Rush and Minotaur Charge to get Free Bull Rushes with your Charge Attack, Knocking your opponents Prone, and doing Trample Damage, and take Spiked Destroyer to get an Armor Spike Attack, too. It will mean having Barding-armor made for you in your Beast Form, but that's fine. Take Greater Bull Rush, and you get an Attack of Opportunity into the bargain.
Since Bull Rushing builds off of Power Attack, you should go ahead and take Great Cleave, especially if you are like me and going with Triceraptops, which only has the 1 Gore attack, as you favored form. On your approach to your enemy, you can have the option instead of charging, Move as a Move Action, then Great Cleave as a Standard Action. Since in this form you can clearly take a rider, you might get mounted by a Level 7 Wizard who can Dim Dor you into the ideal positions for Great Cleaving. With Dimension Door, only the caster is incapacitated, not the passengers.
You can develop Overrun to go with a charging build, and indeed there is no reason why you can't develop Overrunning AND Bull Rushing, but I like Bull Rushing better, so I'd develop those first.
I seem to recall I posted a Triceratops build on this thread. It's been some time since I looked at it, so it might need some updating in light of recent errata.
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I think I have a build that gets around the nerf bat knocking Feral Combat Training off the table for applying Monk Unarmed Strike Damage to Natural Attacks.
Much like MUSD, Warpriests can apply special damage based on their level to any weapon they take Weapon Focus in, called Sacred Weapon. My build calls for a Human who then takes Martial Versatility, so he will instantly apply SWD do all his natural attacks regardless of which forms he takes: Allosaurus, Triceratops, Ichthiasaur, Pterasaur, whatever (This one's a Saurian Shaman.).
1Ranger1: Simple and Martial weapons, Medium, and Light armor, Freebooter, Improved Grapple, Blind Fighting
2R1Druid1: Saurian Shaman
3R1D2: Totem Transformation: Claws&Bite, +2AC, or Senses, Feat
Don't take the Feat. Leave it open for the next level.
4R1D2Warpriest1 Ability +1, Weapon Focus Claws Minor Blessings: Destruction, Earth, Aura, Spells, Sacred Weapon Damage 1d6, Martial Versatility Weapon Focus
5R1D3W1: Feat, Level 2 Druid Spells
Again, leave the Feat slot open, and fill it next level.
6R1D4W1: Wild Shape, Shaping Focus (Huge Reptiles)
Welcome to Kaiju Country. You can Wildshape into an Allosaurus, but on paper, it looks like the DPR is higher if you stick with Megaraptor: large instead of Huge, but 5 Attacks per round instead of 3. But if you still want to take Snake Fang--the nerf bat hit MOMS Monks, too, but Snake Fang is powerful enough to take it the hard way--getting multiple attacks that way might make the increased damage of Huge size the way to go. And then there is the matter of beasts with Damage Reduction.
7R2D4W1 Improved Natural Weapon Natural, Feat
It's the OPs opinion that INA did not stack with Feral Combat Training and MUSD. So he probably thinks it also won't stack with Sacred Weapon Damage, either. He was wrong, and he even pretty much agreed with my interpretation of how INA and FCT used to stack, but endorses the most low-powered interpretation of RAW that he can, whereas I don't always. That stands as my critical opinion of his Guide that he should offer builds with aggressive interpretations of RAW as long as they are clearly legal and discuss arguments and counterarguments offered about them. This thread links to extensive arguments on the topic of FCT and INA which can be found further up.
Meanwhile, if you are worried about taking INA for fear it will not stack with Sacred Weapon, then acquire a Wand of Strong Jaw, which still should stack with Sacred Weapon, but wouldn't stack with INA. Since INA and SJ don't stack anyway, it might be better to just rely on Strong Jaw anyhow, since that is the more powerful, and we don't want to waste levels.
Yep, leave this Feat Slot open, too.
8R2D4W2 Fervor 1d6, Greater Grapple
9R2D4W3 Hamatula Strike, Feat
So, your Bite Attack is Piercing. Hamatula Strike lets you make a Free Grapple Check when you make a successful attack with a piercing weapon. If you are wearing armor spikes, say have a suit of Spiked Lamellar Horn Barding made for you while in Dinosaur Form, you will do Armor Spike Damage with every successful Grapple Check. Armor Spikes do 1d6 size medium, 1d8 size large, and 2d6 size huge. You could acquire a Wand of Lead Blades (level 1 Ranger Spell) cheaply, so your Armor Spikes will be almost as damaging as your bite.
10R2D4W3Monk1: MOMS, Monk Stuff, Snake Style, Martial Versatility Snake Style
While in Snake Style, your Unarmed Strikes can do Piercing Damage. Martial Versatility allows you to apply a feat that works on only one specific weapon to all weapons in the weapon group. Unarmed Strikes are in the Natural Weapon Group, so now in your Megaraptor Form, your Claws and Talons will also qualify as Piercing weapons and will let you make Grapple Checks via Hamatula Strike, and you just doubled your DPR! Smile, like only a Dinosaur can!
11R2D4W4M1: Destruction +2, Level 2 Cleric Spells, Channel Energy, Sacred Weapon +1, Feat
12R2D4W5M1: Sacred Weapon 1d8 Fervor 2d6, Weapon Focus Armor Spikes
So by level 12, we have a character who can make 3-5 attacks/round with a base damage of 2-5 d6 with bonus damage due to Armor Spikes also with 3-4 d6 base damage. The Damage bonus due to Strength applies for both the Spikes and for the initial hit. If you enchant the Armor Spikes--and why not?--you get the enhancement damage for those, too. The Hamatula/Armor Spike trick is something I like to apply to a lot of builds.
Another trick I like is taking levels in classes with Sneak Attack and gaining Quick, Great, Dirty trick feats to lock in the Sneak Attack Damage.
With levels in Ranger, Druid, and Warpriest, you have a vast array of spells you can buff yourself or support your party with, and your saving throws will be impressive, too.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Don't take the Feat. Leave it open for the next level.
You can do this? I have always assumed that you have to take the feat and skill points when you level up.
WagnerSika wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Don't take the Feat. Leave it open for the next level.
You can do this? I have always assumed that you have to take the feat and skill points when you level up. I don't see why not.
It isn't done because players always want all the power they can get as soon as they can get it.
But there are rules for retraining feats at the cost of extra money and time for most campaigns, prestige points and money for PFS campaigns. Why no just wait to fill the slot until the next level?
It might be possible to re-orgainize the levels you take in different things so you don't have to delay. I'm open to suggestions.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: WagnerSika wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Don't take the Feat. Leave it open for the next level.
You can do this? I have always assumed that you have to take the feat and skill points when you level up. I don't see why not.
It isn't done because players always want all the power they can get as soon as they can get it.
But there are rules for retraining feats at the cost of extra money and time for most campaigns, prestige points and money for PFS campaigns. Why no just wait to fill the slot until the next level?
It might be possible to re-orgainize the levels you take in different things so you don't have to delay. I'm open to suggestions. So, there does seem to be a lot of opinion that you can't leave a Feat Slot open, that you must take a Feat when you gain the level. So, if you think your GM is going to put that on you, then how about changing the build like this?
1Druid1: Saurian Shaman, Improved Grapple, Blind Fighting
2D2: Totem Transformation: Claws&Bite, +2AC, or Senses
3D2Warpriest1: Weapon Focus Claws, Minor Blessings: Destruction, Earth, Aura, Spells, Sacred Weapon 1d6, Martial Versatility Weapon Focus
4D3W1: Level 2 Spells
5D4W1: Wild Shape, Shaping Focus
6D4W2: Fervor 1d6, Huge Reptiles
7D4W2Ranger1: Natural Spell, Freebooter Archetype
8D4W3R1: Greater Grapple
9D4W4R1: Hamatula Strike
10D4W4R1Monk1: MOMS, Monk Stuff, Snake Style
11D4W5M1: Sacred Weapon 1d8, Fervor 2d6, Martial Versatility Snake Style
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: WagnerSika wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Don't take the Feat. Leave it open for the next level.
You can do this? I have always assumed that you have to take the feat and skill points when you level up. I don't see why not.
It isn't done because players always want all the power they can get as soon as they can get it.
But there are rules for retraining feats at the cost of extra money and time for most campaigns, prestige points and money for PFS campaigns. Why no just wait to fill the slot until the next level?
It might be possible to re-orgainize the levels you take in different things so you don't have to delay. I'm open to suggestions. So, there does seem to be a lot of opinion that you can't leave a Feat Slot open, that you must take a Feat when you gain the level. So, if you think your GM is going to put that on you, then how about changing the build like this?
1Druid1: Saurian Shaman, Improved Grapple, Blind Fighting
2D2: Totem Transformation: Claws&Bite, +2AC, or Senses
3D2Warpriest1: Weapon Focus Claws, Minor Blessings: Destruction, Earth, Aura, Spells, Sacred Weapon 1d6, Martial Versatility Weapon Focus
4D3W1: Level 2 Spells
5D4W1: Wild Shape, Shaping Focus
6D4W2: Fervor 1d6, Huge Reptiles
7D4W2Ranger1: Natural Spell, Freebooter Archetype
8D4W3R1: Greater Grapple
9D4W4R1: Hamatula Strike
10D4W4R1Monk1: MOMS, Monk Stuff, Snake Style
11D4W5M1: Sacred Weapon 1d8, Fervor 2d6, Martial Versatility Snake Style
The build could be good, the matter is that my DM is old fashoned, where less multiclass is going to be, better is.
Allowing at least 2 or 3 classes as much, or a prestige class if needed.
By the way, Improved grapple couln't be at lvl 1, you need improved unarmed strike to get it.
I was thinkg about Druid, Monk for a few feats and then quitting lawfull to get barbarian or something that could push damage "legally" and without mixing too much...
Scott, the overwhelming opinion on these boards seems to be that Martial Versatility does not work with things like Snake Style, Cornugon Shield, and pre-errata Pummeling Style - only with feats where you are given a choice of weapon, such as Weapon Focus. It seems perfectly clear to me that this opinion that is inexplicably shared by so many people has absolutely no basis in the rules, but I just thought I should give you a heads up. Here's the reaction I got when I tried to challenge this belief. Still not anywhere near convinced, but I've given up arguing. If that's what the intent of the feat, it needs to say something completely different that what it does.
Improved Natural Attack is also in the "GM Discretion" category and I believe is not going to fly in PFS.
It won't fly in PFS, but it's in the very same "GM Discretion" category as Weapon Focus, Martial Versatility, and every other feat in the game. There's nothing particularly special about feats from the Bestiary, and it simply says "some player characters might qualify for them."
Jack Brightbuilder wrote: By the way, Improved grapple couln't be at lvl 1, you need improved unarmed strike to get it. Ah, crap, then I'd have to take Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1, and then Improved Grapple later. If I take Monk at level 1, then I run into the same problem with the timing of the Feats. Hate to do it, but that's the fix.
Avoron wrote: Scott, the overwhelming opinion on these boards seems to be that Martial Versatility does not work with things like Snake Style, That's frustrating. The RAW says you can use Martial Versatility with any Combat Feat that applies to only 1 weapon and then apply that Feat to all the weapons in that group. Snake Style is a Combat Feat that applies to 1 weapon: Unarmed Strikes. Unarmed Strikes is in the Natural Weapons Group as defined by the Fighter Class Weapons Training Class Ability.
Does this overwhelming majority of thread contributors have RAW, errata, FAQ's or Official Rules Posts to back them up? If it is in fact not square with RAW, then the character will have to take Feral Combat Training for Claws, and then Martial Versatility for Feral Combat Training. That's an annoying Feat tax.
chuffster wrote: Improved Natural Attack is also in the "GM Discretion" category and I believe is not going to fly in PFS. In that case, the character doesn't take levels in Ranger and uses a Wand of Strong Jaw. She should take Fighter instead of Ranger, perhaps also instead of Monk and maybe take the Snake Style Feat that way.
But what makes you think you can't combine INA with Sacred Weapon? Would you please cite the RAW?
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Does this overwhelming majority of thread contributors have RAW, errata, FAQ's or Official Rules Posts to back them up? If it is in fact not square with RAW, then the character will have to take Feral Combat Training for Claws, and then Martial Versatility for Feral Combat Training. That's an annoying Feat tax. The difference of opinion is that they take Martial Versatility as allowing you to take a feat where you pick a weapon and instead apply it to a weapon group. Your preferred interpretation is that Martial Versatility lets you take a feat that mentions a weapon and have it apply to the whole associated weapon group.
Their reasoning would be that Martial Versatility doesn't actually change the text of the feats. Martial Versatility (weapon focus) works because weapon focus takes a weapon as an argument (to use computer programming terminology), and MV lets you use the group instead of the weapon. Applying MV to, say, Snake Style just reiterates that Snake Style does what it does. Their secondary argument would be that your preferred interpretation unintentionally opens up a lot of overpowered stuff with the unarmed strike feats.
It's not something that will be settled here but knowing their reasoning should help you have a productive discussion with your GM about it.
Quote: But what makes you think you can't combine INA with Sacred Weapon? Would you please cite the RAW? They combine fine. It's just a monster feat. Not all GMs let you take monster feats. Most noteworthy, PFS doesn't let you take monster feats.
chuffster wrote: They combine fine. It's just a monster feat. Not all GMs let you take monster feats. Most noteworthy, PFS doesn't let you take monster feats. Unless there has been a recent FAQ or something overturning it, Pathfinder Society does allow you to take Monster Feats if an allowed class has a special ability to let you take it, e.g. as a bonus Feat for Rangers taking the Natural Weapon Fighting Style.
chuffster wrote: Their reasoning would be that Martial Versatility doesn't actually change the text of the feats. Martial Versatility (weapon focus) works because weapon focus takes a weapon as an argument (to use computer programming terminology), and MV lets you use the group instead of the weapon. Applying MV to, say, Snake Style just reiterates that Snake Style does what it does. But I am presuming no change to the text of any feats!
Look at the text of the Feat
Martial Versatility wrote: Benefit: Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group. Now look at Snake Style. Is Snake Style a Combat Feat?
Snake Style wrote: (Combat, Style) Yes.
Does Snake Style apply "to a specific weapon?"
Snake Style wrote: you can deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes. Yes again.
I therefore, by taking Martial Versatility, choose Snake Style, which applies specifically to Unarmed Strikes, and use it with any weapon within the same weapon group, in this case the Natural Weapon Group.
Snake Style stands up to the logical test as to whether it fits to apply to Martial Versatility, even if it has differences with Weapon Focus, it still applies to "a specific Weapon."
chuffster wrote: Their secondary argument would be that your preferred interpretation unintentionally opens up a lot of overpowered stuff with the unarmed strike feats. You can't presume intentions. That requires Telepathy, and Psionics are not PFS legal. The designers of this game would be the first to tell you that you can't go by the intent of the rules in PFS, but have to go by RAW.
Mark Seifter Designer wrote: I am actually happy to give my take on rules questions. But I've mentioned several times before that it's always just my opinion and holds no official weight. Jason Nelson wrote: If you are playing PFS or any other RAW rules campaign, the above opinion is merely that and carries no official weight. It is the Intent of the Designers of this game that you go by the Rules as Written.
The argument that you can't take Martial Versatility Snake Style just needs more evidence than is provided here. Is that really all there is?
chuffster wrote: It's not something that will be settled here but knowing their reasoning should help you have a productive discussion with your GM about it. I'm sorry if I'm coming across as harsh, but thoroughly exploring the rules in this case bears directly on the advice offered to the readers.
If all the naysayers are right, the only real result of it is a 1 Feat Tax. You have to take Feral Combat Training Claws, then take Martial Versatility Feral Combat Training, then Snake Style and every other Unarmed Strike Feat applies to all your natural attacks. You'd've already taken Weapon Focus Claws. But it is very annoying to either be told you couldn't take the Feat when a critical eye to the RAW clearly says you can, or to water down your character by taking a Feat that doesn't do anything that you never had to take in the first place!
If we aren't talking about a PFS character, the 1 Feat tax is no big deal since the campaign might go on to extra levels, and you might apply more Feats to your Natural Attacks, Dragon's Ferocity, for instance. Also, it doesn't matter what a homespinning GM rules. I can work within any set of parameters and interpretations as long as he is consistent with himself.
Okay, so fixing my build with respect to taking Improved Unarmed Strike before taking Improved Grapple, and in the interest of advising readers who are afraid of taking Martial Versatility: Snake Style.
1Druid1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Blind Fighting, Saurian Shaman
2D2: Totem Transformation: Claws&Bite, +2AC, or Senses
3D2Warpriest1: Weapon Focus Claws, Minor Blessings: Destruction, Earth, Aura, Spells, Sacred Weapon 1d6, Martial Versatility Weapon Focus
4D3W1: Level 2 Spells
5D4W1: Wild Shape, Shaping Focus
6D4W2: Fervor 1d6, Huge Reptiles
7D4W2Fighter1: Natural Spell, Improved Grapple
8D4W3F1: Greater Grapple
9D4W4F1: Hamatula Strike, Destruction +2, Level 2 Spells
10D4W4F2: Snake Style
11D4W5F2: Sacred Weapon 1d8, Fervor 2d6, Feral Combat Training Claws
12D4W6F2: Martial Versatility Feral Combat Training, Destruction +3
I guess that's not so bad.
So, if this build were for non-PFS, it opens some options. My favorite Animal, for instance, would no longer be Megaraptor nor Allosaurus, but Giant Octopus: 8 Tentacle Attacks, all with Grab and Constrict. Get Spiked Armor made for your Octopus form, and do Spike damage with every hit. Since your Tentacles have Grab, there's no hurry to take Hamatula Strike.
1Cavalier1: Blind Fighting, Mount, Tacitician, Coordinated Maneuvers, Challenge
2C1Druid1
3C1D2: Potion Glutton
4C1D3: Level 2 Spells
5C1D4: Wild Shape, Shaping Focus
Most animals you might Wild Shape into have Scent, and you already took Blindfighting. You will be able to function very effectively even while completely Blind. With a Pyrotechnics Spell, or an Eversmoking Bottle, you can make everyone within 20' of you Blind, including yourself, but you will be able to function and dominate most of your opponents. If the rest of the party plans accordingly, they can all chip in for a 'Bottle and use it as a powerful group tactic.
6C1D4Warpriest1: Weapon Focus Claws, Minor Blessings: Destruction, Earth, Large Animals, Aura, Spells, Sacred Weapon1d6
7C1D4W1Monk1: Unarmed Strike 1d6, Monk stuff, Snake Style, Martial Versatility Weapon Focus
8C2D4W1M1: Expert Captor, Constrict, Huge animals
9C2D4W1M1Alchemist1: Bombs, Brew Potion, Extracts, Mutagens Multiattack
You will get 11 attacks/round: 8 tentacles, 2 Unarmed Strikes or 1 Unarmed and 1 Armor Spike Attack, and a Bite Attack. Each will do a base 1d6 raised to 1d8 while size Large, 3d6 if you can acquire and use a Wand of Strong Jaw. If your GM is not likely to allow you to get one, you should take the Improved Natural Weapon and do 2d6. Each Tentacle Attack allows a Grapple Attempt which will do your 2-3d6 Damage again from Constrict and 1d8 again from Armor Spikes.
Next you develop Grappling.
10C2D4W1M1A2: Tumor Familiar
11C2D4W2M1A2: Natural Spell, Fervor 1d6
12C2D4W3M1A2: Improved Grapple
13C2D4W4M1A2: Greater Grapple, Channel Energy, Sacred Weapon +1, Destruction +2
Greater Grapple lets you make a Grapple check as a Move Action, meaning you can make 2 in a round. With Expert Captor, you can Tie Up a Grappled--not Pinned!--opponent, and you don't take the usual -10, either. With Potion Glutton, you can down your Extracts, "any potable," as a Swift Action. So if you cast True Strike on yourself, then close in on round 1, next round you can Grapple with an extra +20 from True Strike, pop a True Strike Extract as a Swift Action, then roll to Tie Up your opponent as a Move Action in the same round, again with an extra +20! Between various Feats and inexpensive magic items, it is quite possible to get a Grapple Mod of greater than +20 without True Strike, making it possible to defeat some very powerful monsters in a single round, completely bypassing DR.
14C2D4W5A2: Sacred Weapon 1d8, Ferver 2d6
15C2D4W6A2: Snake Sidewind, Snake Fang, Destruction +3
16C2D4W7A2: Sacred Armor +1, Level 3 Spells
17C2D4W8A2: Fervor 3d6, Sacred Weapon +2, Combat Reflexes Destruction +4
18C2D4W9A2: Hamatula Strike
Snake Fang is an Attack of Opportunity hair trigger. you get an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity whenever someone attacks you and misses! Hamatula Strike gives you something like the Grab Ability for Piercing Weapons, including Unarmed Strikes if you use Snake Style. These extra attacks will also trigger Constrict and Armor Spike damage.
Hmm, I should have worked 2 weapon into the build, somewhere. Also, a level in White Haired Witch
Pardon me prototype00, but I would like to know what sort of pros and cons there would be in using the unchained monk instead of the core monk for a way of the angry bear build?
Angry Wizard wrote: Pardon me prototype00, but I would like to know what sort of pros and cons there would be in using the unchained monk instead of the core monk for a way of the angry bear build? At the risk of being presumptuous, recent errata in Ultimate Combat regarding Feral Combat Training and the Master of Many Styles Monk Archetype have so radically affected the dynamics of the builds in prototype00's guide, that I doubt that he recommends ANY kind of Monk any more.
In response to these errata, I recently posted to this thread a build that uses Warpriest and Sacred Weapon in lieu of Monk Unarmed Strike. I think you will find that that is the way to go, now.
Personally, I favor the bonus to Will Save and earlier access to Still Mind over the increased BAB. So I vote for Chained (Core) Monk.
I still have fun with mine, it's not ridiculously op and doesn't really come on line until level 7.
We play pfs 20pt or non pfs 15 point build.
Amarr
Middle-aged angel-blooded aasimar (angelkin) monk (master of many styles, nimble guardian, qinggong monk) 7 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 92, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 7, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 59, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 51)
LN Large outsider (human, native)
Init +3; Senses scent; Perception +13
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 17, flat-footed 20 (+1 deflection, +1 Dex, +4 natural, -1 size, +6 Wis)
hp 52 (7d8+14)
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +9; +2 vs. death, +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning, +2 circumstance vs. blinded or dazzled
Defensive Abilities defensive aid
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +11 (3d6+8) or
bite +11 (2d6+7 plus grab), 2 claws +12 (2d4+7 plus grab)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks pounce, stunning fist (8/day, DC 16)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th; concentration +8)
At will—halo
1/day—enhanced diplomacy, guidance, lesser age resistance[UM], longstrider, mending
Monk Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th; concentration +8)
—barkskin (self only, 1 ki)[UM]
—scorching ray (2 ki)[UM]
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 12
Base Atk +5; CMB +14 (+18 grapple); CMD 30 (34 vs. trip)
Feats Catfolk Exemplar (sharp Claws)[ARG], Crane Style[UC], Crane Wing[UC], Dragon Style[UC], Feral Combat Training[UC], Improved Unarmed Strike, Racial Heritage[APG], Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (claw)
Traits adopted, mizu ki hikari rebel, reactionary, tusked
Skills Acrobatics +11 (+23 to jump), Climb +12, Escape Artist +7, Fly +2, Intimidate +1 (+3 circumstance vs. evil creatures), Perception +13, Profession (sailor) +9, Ride +7, Sense Motive +9, Swim +16
Languages Common
SQ defensive mastery, fast movement, fey magic, fuse style, guardian feline, halo, immortal spark, ki pool (7 points cold iron, magic, silver), maneuver training, mark of slavery, nimble reflexes, scion of humanity
Other Gear +1 amulet of mighty fists, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +1, monk's robe, ring of protection +1.
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Special Abilities
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Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki) (Sp) Self Only. Costs 1 ki point to activate.
Catfolk Exemplar (Sharp Claws) Your feline traits are more defined and prominent than those of other members of your race.
Prerequisites: Catfolk.
Benefit: You can take the Aspect of the Beast feat (Advanced Player’s Guide 151) even if you do not meet the nor
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Crane Wing Your sweeping blocks and graceful motions allow you to deflect melee attacks with ease.
Defensive Aid (6/day) (Ex) Grant ally +4 to AC or a Reflex saving throw up to Wis mod times a day.
Defensive Mastery (Ex) When using defensive aid, spend 1 ki point to negate damage taken on ally's successful reflex save.
Dragon Style +2 vs. sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Fast Movement (+20 ft.) The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Feral Combat Training (Claw) Use Improved Unarmed Strike feats with chosen natural weapon.
Fey Magic (Favored Terrain [Water]) Gain spell-like abilities in selected terrain.
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Grab: Bite (Large) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Grab: Claw (Large) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Guardian Feline (Tiger, Dire) (Su) Spend 2 ki points to change into feline form as beast shape II or III (9th level).
Halo +2 to intimidate vs. evil creatures and to saves against becoming blinded or dazzled.
Immortal Spark You gain +2 to saves vs. death.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Pool (7/day) (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Mark of Slavery -2 to skills and attacks after failing a skill check, unless you're retrying the skill check,
Nimble Reflexes (Ex) At 3rd level, a nimble guardian gains a +2 bonus on all Reflex saving throws. This ability replaces still mind.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Racial Heritage (Catfolk) You count as another race for the purpose of prerequisites.
Replaced Ability Chooser Use this ability to choose which base monk abilities to trade out for Ki powers. Once the monk has become a level where he would have gained that ability, this configurable will gain a slot for a Ki power.
Replaced Ability Chooser Use this ability to choose which base monk abilities to trade out for Ki powers. Once the monk has become a level where he would have gained that ability, this configurable will gain a slot for a Ki power.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Scion of Humanity Count as a human for any effect related to race. Pass as human without using disguise.
Scorching Ray (2 Ki) (Sp) Costs 2 ki points to activate.
Stunning Fist (8/day, DC 16) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
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Is this guide still legit?
Dhrakken wrote: Is this guide still legit? Well there have been some errata to Feral Combat Training that remove a lot of the synergy.
You can do something similar with Ascetic Style or Warpriest now, but it still isn't the best.
Does this guide still work? The Prime Mauler I am referring to.
Wow I see I replied to this many months ago. Someone bring this thread back. What the build look like today?
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