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So small update this time (was slightly ill this weekend), I've finished the Style feats and put in the skills.
Traits will be next.
Enjoy!
prototype00
I'm loving the guide, can't wait to read more of it.
I'm playing a wildshape-focused druid in a campaign. We're still level one, so depending on how things go, I might turn him into a fist of the forest.
Another "why not" question...now that there's a wild shaping hunter...with the same BAB and more skills and feats...why not hunter?
Its not bad. Some of the spells I want as a druid I get as a lower level as a Hunter like Strong Jaw (but due to worse spellcasting progression, you get it at lvl 7, just the same as a druid).
Mostly the many good Druid archetypes are marginally better than the one Feral Hunter Hunter archetype.
Its a choice thing, really.
prototype00
Actually I just realized that Hunter lets you use a lesser echoing metamagic rod with Strong Jaw instead of an echoing one. That's something at least (you'd to store those off body when you Wildshape and shift into something with opposable thumbs and a voice).
prototype00
You could just download it? Its a pdf.
prototype00
I think you might have missed the Dragon Style feats in your actual feat section. Was this intentional? I know you actually comment on it in other places, but it's curiously missing from the feat section.
Dot for later perusal. Looks really good from the little bit I was able to see before heading off to work!
Could one of your builds be a fairly simple Druid (Saurian Shaman) / Monk build?
Final character level will be 17.
Saurian Shaman does not get Wildshape till Druid 6.
I am just wondering what levels to take in what order,
-- david
I think you might have missed the Dragon Style feats in your actual feat section. Was this intentional? I know you actually comment on it in other places, but it's curiously missing from the feat section.
Ah, I must have missed that, embarrassing. I'll get to it when I need to take a break from Dragon Age.
Could one of your builds be a fairly simple Druid (Saurian Shaman) / Monk build?
Final character level will be 17.
Saurian Shaman does not get Wildshape till Druid 6.I am just wondering what levels to take in what order,
That's easy! (Because I'm playing one.)
1 monk -> 6 levels of Druid (rush for that huge wildshape) -> 1 more level of Druid (For Strong Jaw) -> Any combination of Monk or Druid.
But I'll put the build in the guide.
prototype00
Mmm... I think I may have just broke something.
I have potentially two questions.
1. Does Feral Combat Training work with Pummeling Style? I read the errata to both and I believe it does.
2. Assuming the answer to 1. is a "yes" ... did I just make the Conquerer Ooze build top the DPR meters?
Being able to charge, full attack with a flurry of uberslam, free action trip and do everything else that slam can do (stunning fist, etc) seems very powerful. Very. Powerful.
PS. Welcome back, prototyp00!
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It does work. Yeah feral combat training make you into a druid/monk using natural attacks with pummeling style. It's an effective combo but wouldn't recommend to do it in most games (you frankly don't need that much damage in most adventures).
Optimization wise, yeah it's perfect, since pummeling style is a superior style to any other style out there, easily.
It kinda just gives the middle finger to DR. I might have to stat something up. Unless prototype00 would rather?
That's easy! (Because I'm playing one.)
1 monk -> 6 levels of Druid (rush for that huge wildshape) -> 1 more level of Druid (For Strong Jaw) -> Any combination of Monk or Druid.
But I'll put the build in the guide.
prototype00
Thanks. I think that I will change it slightly, and go Druid 1 / Monk 1 / Druid +7 for 9 levels total. Then I'll figure out the rest at that point.
Need the Endure Elements spells early.
20 point buy: S 17, D 14, C 14, I 10, W 14, cH 8, human.
-- david
This seems like an interesting character concept but doesn't sound like it would be great at low levels. Is there any advice for what you might do at low level?
Two hand a Shillelaghed Quaterstaff enlarged by the growth domain or cast enlarge person via the strength domain for 3d6 + 1 + 1.5xStr (I recommend 18 strength so 12?)
That's what I did.
prototype00
Mmm... I think I may have just broke something.
I have potentially two questions.
1. Does Feral Combat Training work with Pummeling Style? I read the errata to both and I believe it does.
2. Assuming the answer to 1. is a "yes" ... did I just make the Conquerer Ooze build top the DPR meters?
Being able to charge, full attack with a flurry of uberslam, free action trip and do everything else that slam can do (stunning fist, etc) seems very powerful. Very. Powerful.
PS. Welcome back, prototyp00!
Its good, I personally prefer the max damage Greater Vital Strike damage with Furious Finish. 500ish damage in a single hit deals with DR quite effectively too, I find.
prototype00
Tetori, as the bonus feats and abilities are better.
Maneuver Master lets you tack on a maneuver for free onto a full attack, but if that maneuver is to grapple, you either lose the full attack, or you can't straight off pin (because you've used your standard action already during the full attack).
prototype00
Im wondering if you folks have considered a druid 4/ranger x as an alternative to this? You could use Shapeshifting Hunter to get full wildshape progression, and select the natural weapons combat style while also swapping out ranger class features for stuff like warpriest blessings, animal focus, or barbarian rage, all with a 19 BAB. With a feat like Boon Companion you could also have a full progression AC. Alternatively to the Natural Attack style, you could go two-weapon fighting for an AoMF unarmed/NA build with more attacks than a flurrying monk would get. On top of all of this, the ranger can make much more use of a high wisdom score than a brawler could, and would be on par with a monk as far as stat synergy. You'd be giving up a lot of spell levels, to be sure, but would get +4 BAB, a slew of bonus feats, and favored enemy/terrain/animal focus/rage/ranger shapeshifting in return.
As a third option, druid 4/monk 1/ranger 13 might be another good choice.
I am playing around with this. Something that puzzles me is "why take a level in Monk? What does it do for the build?"
Monk 1 gets rid of armor but adds Wis to armor class, adds 10 feet movement.
I guess that I am just missing the purpose behind, or how you get the huge amounts of unarmed damage.
-- david
So a 20th level monk does 2d10 unarmed strike damage (works out to 3d8 in damage progression terms). If you have feral combat training, your claws/slams/bite/whatever does that much damage now.
If you are a huge creature, your unarmed strike is also huge, so 6d8 damage.
If you can cast Strong Jaw, thats 2 more size increases, so 12d8 damage (which is incidentally what a 20th level Colossal Monk would be doing).
No weapon (except for the Carnivorous Crystal's slam attack) will do as much damage as that. And that is the source of the Druid/Monk's power.
prototype00
Yea, but as a Druid 7 (strong jaw) / Monk 10 (at max in the campaign I am prepping for), a monk does 1d10, more likely a step down from that.
I do not understand what you mean by "damage progression". What damage progression?
-- david
Yea, but as a Druid 7 (strong jaw) / Monk 10 (at max in the campaign I am prepping for), a monk does 1d10, more likely a step down from that.
I do not understand what you mean by "damage progression". What damage progression?
-- david
Monk 10 + Monk's Robe = 15 levels (2d6 damage) + Monastic Legacy (3 extra monk levels from 7 levels of Druid) = 2d8 damage
With Strong Jaw and Huge Wildshape, thats 8d8 damage, which isn't bad. You have to be lvl 20 for the 12d8 damage unfortunately.
Also, I would dispute prototype00s last statement. Behemoth Hippopotamus + Rageshaper (bestial aspect) + Improved Natural Attack + Strong Jaw + Cloak of Fangs. And, as an afterthought, Improved Vital Strike and Furious Finish.
Sure, but some differences between this and the druid:
1. The druid an stay in his form for the entire day, Polymorph and Beast Shape last for a minute per level
2. The Druid can cast his spells thanks to Natural spell (so versatility)
3. The druid can also do this trick, behemoth hippo is all right, but the carnivorous crystal is better.
prototype00
Wow, lotsa very interesting ideas!But (there's always a but) I'm a little uncomfortable with your take on Feral Combat Training:
'treat all of them as your Unarmed Strike with regard to feats, Magic Items, Magic Spells etc and damage (if your unarmed strike damage is higher) ... '
Here's the feat description:
"Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature."
I read the last part of the Benefits section as '... as well as effects of feats that augment ...' (I think my two added words 'of feats' are strongly implied). A more liberal reading would take 'effects' to include spells and/or items that augment unarmed strike. I can't see how a class feature (i.e. the scaling of damage with unarmed strike) can be considered an effect. Also note that other weapons which can be used in a monk's FoB do not have scaling damage.
I'm looking forward to your completed guide!
Hey, I don't blame ya, I thought that was a bit of a stretch too, until this faq:
Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?
Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.
Crazy, huh?
prototype00
Yeah, pretty broken. Probable nerf-bait?
Eh, I don't know. They faq-ed it less than a year ago. They obviously thought the Feral Combat Training feat wasn't good enough.
prototype00
Ooh, I'll check it out. Sorry the guide has been slow, DA:I has been claiming the lions share of my time.
How is that different from the mountain druid, which already allowed that?
Hrm... 3rd party?
I do not expect it to have a large impact (pun intended).
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The goliath druid has faster progression on it, and has other abilities that are nice too.
Wild Shape (Su): Druids’ ability to wild shape into a creature of the animal type allows a goliath druid to assume only the form of a dinosaur or megafauna. She doesn’t gain the ability to become an elemental or plant. At 6th level, the goliath druid can use wild shape to become a Large humanoid of the giant subtype. This functions as the alter self spell, except the goliath druid gains a +4 size bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, and a +1 natural armor bonus. If the Large humanoid form she takes has rock throwing, she gains rock throwing (range 40 feet, 1d8 damage). If the form has the aquatic subtype, she gains the aquatic and amphibious subtypes.
At 12th level, when taking the form of a giant, the goliath druid’s wild shape functions as giant form I. At 14th level, the goliath druid can also use wild shape to change into a Huge giant. When taking the form of a giant, the goliath druid’s wild shape functions as giant form II. This ability alters wild shape.
That is too powerful when compared to other archetypes.
Mmm... yeah. You are right. I somehow missed the "only". I guess I figured that it was using the same wording as the animal shaman archetypes and glossed over it. I declare it fairly balanced. (maybe still on the powerful side)
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Flying is iffy because flying dinos are not dinos. Dinosaur, Pteranodon
The pteranodon is not itself a dinosaur but rather a large flying reptile that is often found in areas dinosaurs are common. Its flight lacks grace, so it lands on the ground to fight foes it can't carry away.
Although listed as a dino, the description specifically states that it is NOT a dinosaur. Mind you,if you can use a Pteranodon, you can probably also use a swoop lizard: Pterosaur, Rhamphorhynchus which is a tiny version. . . if you want tiny form.
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Inspired by this guide i actually decided to create a Nagaji Druid Fist of Fury!
However my character is joining the campaign at level 4 and so doesn't have all of its stuff. At first i thought i would take straight druid to have wild shape straight away but that doesn't actually seem to make me very tough, would it be smarter to go 2 in Druid, 2 in Tetori Monk then return to druid after that? Also what feats should i take at low level?
A Goliath Druid can use compsognathus form to scout stealthily. Or pteranodon form to fly. Still lacks a tiny flying form, but it's not completely screwed on either front.
So as to keep the guide as simple as possible, I will opt not to cover 3rd party resources, if that is all right. I had thought the Goliath druid was Pathfinder core, but evidently not.
Inspired by this guide i actually decided to create a Nagaji Druid Fist of Fury!
However my character is joining the campaign at level 4 and so doesn't have all of its stuff. At first i thought i would take straight druid to have wild shape straight away but that doesn't actually seem to make me very tough, would it be smarter to go 2 in Druid, 2 in Tetori Monk then return to druid after that? Also what feats should i take at low level?
You probably want a level of Tetori Monk (for Improved Grapple for free), and then 3 levels of Naga Aspirant (so you can go Naga at 6th level with a pick of Shaping Focus at 5th level, delays Natural Spell to 7th level, however, ah well).
After you take your 4 levels of Naga Aspirant, revert to Monk for the next 5 levels to pick up Greater Grapple for free.
As to low level feats, it would be mostly the same combat feats that most monks druids will take (Weapon focus (Improved Unarmed Strike) etc, as you can effectively fight other opponents around you while grappling anyway. I actually don't have any specific advice for this, anyone else want to chime in? Grabbing style will be useful, but a high level pick.
By the by, thanks for the patience with the guide, I am enjoying my holiday so far, but there will be a stretch where I am on the road, so we'll see about putting a bit more in then.
prototype00
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A Goliath Druid can use compsognathus form to scout stealthily. Or pteranodon form to fly. Still lacks a tiny flying form, but it's not completely screwed on either front.So as to keep the guide as simple as possible, I will opt not to cover 3rd party resources, if that is all right. I had thought the Goliath druid was Pathfinder core, but evidently not.
It is Paizo. It's in the brand new Giant Hunter's Handbook.
A Goliath Druid can use compsognathus form to scout stealthily. Or pteranodon form to fly. Still lacks a tiny flying form, but it's not completely screwed on either front.So as to keep the guide as simple as possible, I will opt not to cover 3rd party resources, if that is all right. I had thought the Goliath druid was Pathfinder core, but evidently not.
The Goliath Druid is Paizo material. From d20pfsrd.
Section 15: Copyright Notice
Pathfinder Player Companion: Giant Hunter's Handbook © 2014, Paizo Inc.; Authors: Alexander Augunas, Luis Loza, Ron Lundeen, and David Ross.
-- david
Ah, thats pretty good then. It probably goes on the same tier as Saurian Shaman due to you being able to miss out on Natural spell (eventually, you can retrain it or something).
prototype00
Dotting for interest.