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My big questions about this Class is that, with so little points of mental focuses to spare, it is almost encouraging people to max out intelligence. Otherwise the Occultist simply do not have enough points to use past level 7 with thier 4 implements.
Even taking a feat to get 3 more still is not enough, they should really get it 2 points per level.
The comparison is that, if a character has such high intelligence why wouldn't he just be a wizard instead? Sure the occultist brings some cool flavor, but there is not not enough juice to back them up to be effective through out the whole adventurist day.
I personally have posted a play test and in there it explained my build: HEAR.
almost at every level a wizard archer is just superior in any way, higher damage, higher to-hit, higher defense. etc.. I really want to play the occultist, but seeing as it, there's almost no reason to do so...
Granted, "less versatile than a T1 caster" doesn't really say all that much. It's good to know that we're getting some high-level playtest and that the class still (mostly) holds up. Alex Smith, any other details on how effectively non-focused Occultist works at high levels would be nice, if you have them.My suspicion is that the 16th level Occultist is still going to be less versatile than a 16th level cleric, oracle, wizard, or arcanist, even with her slowly expanding suite of powers and spells. It is just appearing more versatile to you since you are comparing the class to specialized class variants that limit their purview.
And I suppose it is nice to be able to buff into a "gish" but I am unconvinced that is appreciably better than a sorcerer or wizard under the effects of Transformation (which has an increasingly manageable component cost at later levels) or anything a cleric or oracle can buff into. In particular, an Oracle with the right mystery is probably much much better buffed before combat AND has access to 8th level spells by level 16.
Well, allow me to beg this question: is a level 16 occultist more or less versatile than a level 16 Oracle with the ancestor mystery if you replaced the Oracle's full casting with 2/3s casting?
Recall that the Oracle gets the full Cleric spell list, and has several mysteries that all key from pools separate from casting.
I think it is actually a MUCH better Gish than the Occultist is presently and is also arguably a better caster with its broader spell list.
You can do it at level 4.Edit #2:
That being known. Does that mean I could have a keen agile scimitar if I put 6 points of mental focus into the weapon at lv. 5?*whack* *whack*
I'm sorry what was that? Oh, the nerf hammer :)
I love the idea for this class. I just think the rules needs to be a bit more streamlined. Perhaps have one set of implements/spells/foci as universal that everyone gets as a baseline? In my opinion that the various schools are all over the place in terms of relative power and effectiveness.
It gets bonuses to attack one level earlier than the fighter. I don't think that needs a nerf. And regardless: I think these guys have a bad interpretation of the rules anyways. I gotta think you need a +1 on the base weapon before you add any other special abilities.
I agree that the schools are all over the place power-wise, though.
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It gets bonuses to attack one level earlier than the fighter. I don't think that needs a nerf. And regardless: I think these guys have a bad interpretation of the rules anyways. I gotta think you need a +1 on the base weapon before you add any other special abilities.I agree that the schools are all over the place power-wise, though.
On the class-based enchantments. I think it is a wee more than that. +2 equivalent enchantments on a weapon? At 4th? I don't know of any fighter class feature that grants keen and agile at 5th.
On the other hand. I suppose an argument could be made for the fact that the transmutation occultist gains this in lieu of bonus feats...agile is kind of half of dervish dance, without the pre-reqs...and keen equates to improved critical only the feat requires +8 bab. And the occultist is a 3/4 BAB class, not full. It is just a bit more front loaded it would seem. And rocks in a low wealth campaign.
Or...
Maybe merge these class abilities into the fighter...now that would be awesome. Yes I know the purist in me winces, but what a fix to the fighter class. But I digress. :)
Swashbucklers add "keen" at 5 through improved critical. Also: look up "fencing grace". Maybe finally the dex fighter mafia will stop their complaining.
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maybe im reading this wrong, but the LEgacy weapon seems to be that you only get ONE ability, depending on lv/points put into it could get a stronger ability, not able to get both keen and agile at lv 4, but one or the other, however it does stack so one could buy a +1 agile weapon then use the ablility to put keen on it.
this is what i get from the ability lol
maybe im reading this wrong, but the LEgacy weapon seems to be that you only get ONE ability, depending on lv/points put into it could get a stronger ability, not able to get both keen and agile at lv 4, but one or the other, however it does stack so one could buy a +1 agile weapon then use the ablility to put keen on it.
this is what i get from the ability lol
Oh man. You are completely right and I feel like a chump for misreading it. It does not even seem like you can give the weapon a raw enhancement bonus. This changes everything because I somehow thought the transmutation ability could impart a raw enhancement bonus (like numerous buffs that improve the effects of a magical weapon). This class cannot gish at all and my math from earlier was a sad joke. Abandon all hope ye who want to swing a sword or draw a bow of obscure and mysterious provenance. There is nothing for you here. The wages of gish are death.
Let us not discuss it anymore.
I've said this elsewhere, but considering it's concerning the class, it would help to add it here:
I REALLY don't like "psychic" magic; it just seems like an unnecessary addition that actually weakens these classes' usefulness; and it's not like Extracts, where there's a noticeable mechanical difference than the normal Arcane/Divine dynamic ("emotion" isn't a tremendously impactful or noticeable quality to the system).
That said, I really like the general design of the class; it's a really cool idea that hearkens to The Dresden Files, Hellblazer, Doctor Fate, etc.
Wouldn't this class be better served as either an Arcane class, given its focus on Schools?
Even better, since the Divine vs Arcane Half-Casters comparison has Divine having 1 less half-caster than Arcane, wouldn't it be good as a school-based Divine caster?
Or, again, even beyond that, since the Occultist shares many similarities in theme to the Alchemist (requiring external instruments to "cast" spells), couldn't the Occultist simply be a "neutral" caster like the Alchemist and Investigator, who's spells aren't either Arcane OR Divine?
The last option would be to mesh the two and have it cast as either Arcane or Divine, depending on the Focus Items used - an Amulet allows the Occulstic to cast Abjuration-school spells as Arcane spells, while a Bell allows him to cast Abjuration-school spells as Divine.
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Anyway, that's just my two cents - everything else seems pretty darn solid.
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You can do it at level 4.Edit #2:
That being known. Does that mean I could have a keen agile scimitar if I put 6 points of mental focus into the weapon at lv. 5?*whack* *whack*
I'm sorry what was that? Oh, the nerf hammer :)
I love the idea for this class. I just think the rules needs to be a bit more streamlined. Perhaps have one set of implements/spells/foci as universal that everyone gets as a baseline? In my opinion that the various schools are all over the place in terms of relative power and effectiveness.
It gets bonuses to attack one level earlier than the fighter. I don't think that needs a nerf. And regardless: I think these guys have a bad interpretation of the rules anyways. I gotta think you need a +1 on the base weapon before you add any other special abilities.
I agree that the schools are all over the place power-wise, though.
lol, sir, I respect you as a person, and all your opinions, but that is the worst arguement i have ever heard in my life!
"it has higher to hit than a fighter"
lololol, everything single class, but the rogue. i can make it to have higher to hit than a fighter.
that is just not a thing to say,
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I've said this elsewhere, but considering it's concerning the class, it would help to add it here:
I REALLY don't like "psychic" magic; it just seems like an unnecessary addition that actually weakens these classes' usefulness; and it's not like Extracts, where there's a noticeable mechanical difference than the normal Arcane/Divine dynamic ("emotion" isn't a tremendously impactful or noticeable quality to the system).
That said, I really like the general design of the class; it's a really cool idea that hearkens to The Dresden Files, Hellblazer, Doctor Fate, etc.
Wouldn't this class be better served as either an Arcane class, given its focus on Schools?
Even better, since the Divine vs Arcane Half-Casters comparison has Divine having 1 less half-caster than Arcane, wouldn't it be good as a school-based Divine caster?
Or, again, even beyond that, since the Occultist shares many similarities in theme to the Alchemist (requiring external instruments to "cast" spells), couldn't the Occultist simply be a "neutral" caster like the Alchemist and Investigator, who's spells aren't either Arcane OR Divine?
The last option would be to mesh the two and have it cast as either Arcane or Divine, depending on the Focus Items used - an Amulet allows the Occulstic to cast Abjuration-school spells as Arcane spells, while a Bell allows him to cast Abjuration-school spells as Divine.
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Anyway, that's just my two cents - everything else seems pretty darn solid.
They have already printed some uniquie psychic spell, but in the interst of the play test, and cutting the deadline, they had to just let us use some existing spells.
spells should do similiar things, generaly because people ususaly wnat to same things, want to be rich, want to be strong, smart.. etc.so ofcourse there will be some similiarities to spells.
and no..plz don't compare occulist to alchimists, which is one of the strongest classes to play in society. they do everything else better in any way.
better blaster - using bomb, better skill monkey - better skill sets.
and better melee: i have a pfs lvl 7 alchmist with 45 str and 100hp.
a occulist can't even come half toward that...
Once again, Planar Binding / Magic Circle Against X rears it's ugly head. You can't prepare a circle to bind an entity that is more or less in line with your way of thinking, only ones that are probably opposed to you?
Love all the Dresden here! Now all we need is Bob.
Once again, Planar Binding / Magic Circle Against X rears it's ugly head. You can't prepare a circle to bind an entity that is more or less in line with your way of thinking, only ones that are probably opposed to you?You do not need to bind creatures who are friendly to you and possible allies, you persuade them.
Well, Occultist doesn't get the Planar Ally spells, so you don't really have another good way to get a hold of them.
Dervish dancing bard is effectively agile at level 1.
Not sure if this has been brought up before, But the Transmutation Focus Power - Sudden Speed doesn't list what type of bonus it is. Currently it stacks with Haste, and just about everything else.
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Not sure if this has been brought up before, But the Transmutation Focus Power - Sudden Speed doesn't list what type of bonus it is. Currently it stacks with Haste, and just about everything else.
yes, you are right, it does stack with hate at the moment,
however it will probly get errated soon.Even if it stacks, its whatever.. cost a point to use and it only lasts for 1 minutes just like the warpirest's bless.
but the biggest difference is taht a warpreist can use their blessing all day everyday. an occultist can't. try and use class ability more than 3 times, nope.. you lose all your other class abilities
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something im wondering, not sure if its been answered yet but can you take a focus twice, like transmutation and put both transmutations on the same item? i dont personally think it does otherwise it would be able to have a Keen agile weapon at first lv and become the most wide dip class lol
No, I don't believe that is the intent of the rule. It doesn't explicitly say you can't take the same implement twice, but it does imply it with the language surrounding spells known.
The occultist needs only one such item to cast a spell of the corresponding school, unless he selected that implement group multiple times, in which case he needs one item for each set of spells gained from that group.
something im wondering, not sure if its been answered yet but can you take a focus twice, like transmutation and put both transmutations on the same item? i dont personally think it does otherwise it would be able to have a Keen agile weapon at first lv and become the most wide dip class lolThis kind of goes with my earlier question about whether the same implement can be used to access multiple fields if it fits them...line the aforementioned bone quarterstaff.
Yes, also wondering on this.
I also see no changelog in the OP for this thread. Which is both reassuring that there is nothing glaringly out of whack AND disappointing that the many and various clarifications so far requested have not been addressed. :)
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I'm seeing a lot of skill monkey potential with an occultist who focuses on illusion, conjuration, and enchantment. You have summoning and healing, competence bonuses on your charisma-based skills and at-will disguise self or huge bonuses on stealth, and some great save or sucks from enchantment later on. 4 skill points with a class that is so Int-focused means being able to max out a lot of skills.
I don't see transmutation as mandatory for quite awhile. It starts to get good at 3rd level spells IMO with the choice of haste, fly, magic vestment, etc. Mind over Gravity is also pretty sweet, but these can wait quite a bit.
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Using shift power, can you shift to the same implement, or does it have to be a different implement? For example, let's say I have a sword that I legacy weaponed to have animal bane on it. We come upon a goblin camp, and I shift to goblin bane (I have extra focus in the weapon to start with, so even after the -1 I have enough). Do I need a second weapon, or can I use the same weapon?
Also, if you have a double weapon, do I get the bonuses for both ends (probably not, but I'm checking)?
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Using shift power, can you shift to the same implement, or does it have to be a different implement? For example, let's say I have a sword that I legacy weaponed to have animal bane on it. We come upon a goblin camp, and I shift to goblin bane (I have extra focus in the weapon to start with, so even after the -1 I have enough). Do I need a second weapon, or can I use the same weapon?
The Legacy Weapon power says you pick one weapon special ability, so you can't have both. I believe you would need to have two weapons unless you pull the focus from the first weapon and then add it back.
Also, if you have a double weapon, do I get the bonuses for both ends (probably not, but I'm checking)?
I could rule this one either way because it's not clear. You don't pay twice to masterwork a double weapon. The rules for enchanting magic weapons say you have to pay once for each end. There is nothing in the Legacy Weapon rules that says how to treat double weapons which means GM variation to me.
You can do it at level 4.Edit #2:
That being known. Does that mean I could have a keen agile scimitar if I put 6 points of mental focus into the weapon at lv. 5?*whack* *whack*
I'm sorry what was that? Oh, the nerf hammer :)
I love the idea for this class. I just think the rules needs to be a bit more streamlined. Perhaps have one set of implements/spells/foci as universal that everyone gets as a baseline? In my opinion that the various schools are all over the place in terms of relative power and effectiveness.
It gets bonuses to attack one level earlier than the fighter. I don't think that needs a nerf. And regardless: I think these guys have a bad interpretation of the rules anyways. I gotta think you need a +1 on the base weapon before you add any other special abilities.
I agree that the schools are all over the place power-wise, though.
lol, sir, I respect you as a person, and all your opinions, but that is the worst arguement i have ever heard in my life!
"it has higher to hit than a fighter"
lololol, everything single class, but the rogue. i can make it to have higher to hit than a fighter.
that is just not a thing to say,
Can you really? Without preparation rounds? Between greater weapon focus and weapon training (which both stack with everything), the fight's accuracy is probably tied for the best consistent in the game, baring perhaps a reckless abandon-based barbarian (who pays for that accuracy with armor class and technically does not have "consistent" accuracy).
Regardless, I was wrong about my reading of one of the rules anyways. Read my last rant-y post before this one. This class is actually only "about as good" as a fighter in the first 4 levels (if you have the focus to buff yourself each fight). After that, its gish potential falls off pretty hard and it becomes a worse version of an Oracle for that sort of combat sometimes/spell-casting sometimes build.
Honestly, I want to hear more about playtests where people just focus on using their powers, spells, and skills. I am still guessing worse than an Oracle! However, in that case there is a chance. This class gets a lot of these focus points so that is a lot of potential power usage.
This is not a viable gish class. People need to stop getting distracted by its martial weapon proficiencies.
We should instead talk about whether all these powers meaningfully catches this casting class up to a full casting class. Moreover, since these powers (I believe) are the main thrust of this class, we should discuss which of these powers need to catch up to the other powers and which other ones are fine as-is. Or maybe none of them are fine and playing this class will just make you wish you had built a witch or oracle or some other class-power heavy full casting class.
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Plus, take it from Dresden--magic is great, but sometimes there's just no substitute for your friends Smith & Wesson.Are you Implying that I need to cram both Amateur Investigator and Amateur Gunslinger into my build? Because if so I like the way you think.
Remember, if you go for the transmutation implements: reliable is a +1 equivalent ability...
How does/would the occultist work as the "all martial" side of an eldritch knight build?
Pretty well, but not necessarily "perfect". The transmutation basic ability +1 is going to be pretty handy for quite a while and an extra enchantment on your weapon and armor are nothing to scoff at. I would still probably want an inspired blade swashbuckler level more (since arcane spell failure is still a problem and you are gonna want to armor up light; also: panache pool!). And maybe I would want the two fighter levels just for the feats.
But you could do a lot worse and it would be a neat choice.
I'm still trying to build Harry Potter in Pathfinder and the closest I have managed, in my mind, is a sage wildblooded sorcerer. The guy running a wand-using occultist in my playtest came pretty close, but it wasn't quite there yet. I'm hopeful that the occultist may yet prove to execute the concept better when all is said and done, but then, I'm really digging the class from what we've seen so far (the whole loss of mental focus = diminishing resonant power bonuses thing notwithstanding).
I did a fairly detailed review of the psychic and if I do another, it will likely be for the occultist as this class has some great roleplaying potential in my eyes. I would not have thought to combine psychometry with an arcane-flavored spellcaster, but it works...!
I too am hopeful for an investigator archetype that uses implements instead of extracts. Anybody else seeing the potential for archaeologist character concepts with this class?
I too am hopeful for an investigator archetype that uses implements instead of extracts. Anybody else seeing the potential for archaeologist character concepts with this class?
Man: I also hope this is a thing. Though, that might be too good if you are also talking about handing over the this class's spellcasting.
I love the investigator. That class is actually a really solid martial combatant with spell utility.
Well, there is already the Archaeologist bard archetype, so they'd have to find a different name for it..
Not really.
See-
Buccaneer (Bard, Gunslinger)
Sniper (Rogue, Slayer)
Witch Doctor (Shaman, Witch)
Etc.
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I too am hopeful for an investigator archetype that uses implements instead of extracts. Anybody else seeing the potential for archaeologist character concepts with this class?Man: I also hope this is a thing. Though, that might be too good if you are also talking about handing over the this class's spellcasting.
It's not really too good, If you remove the alchemy, extracts. and discovery access and exchange them for the implements, focus, and spellcasting it's the same power level. Slightly weaker class features in exchange for slightly better casting.
It's not really too good, If you remove the alchemy, extracts. and discovery access and exchange them for the implements, focus, and spellcasting it's the same power level. Slightly weaker class features in exchange for slightly better casting.
I too am hopeful for an investigator archetype that uses implements instead of extracts. Anybody else seeing the potential for archaeologist character concepts with this class?Man: I also hope this is a thing. Though, that might be too good if you are also talking about handing over the this class's spellcasting.
I am not so sure that I agree with that. Most of the alchemy-based powers of the investigator are situational and the alchemist discoveries are of only very questionable utility without extracts anyways. I think the mental focus abilities are more comparable to something like the alchemist's bombs or the investigator's studied combat (with all the utility they grant and their large number of uses per day).
Trapfinding and stuff might have to go too (but maybe it could be picked up again as a talent like the Slayer can)
Base focus power, focus power, and the general descriptions of how this work need different names and another whack. This is very confusing to go through and figure out what I actually have on my character
Let me make sure I'm doing this right.
I have a Third level occultist with an 18 intelligence.
This gives mes a mental focus pools of 3 base +4 int + 3 level
I get three focuses
I take transmutation, Evocation, and Illusion
For transmutation I get all the impliments
Base focus power: Pyscic weapon
Focus power sudden speed (the only option)
I put 3 resonance points into legacy weapon to make it Agile
I put 4 resonance points into my sandles for +10 feet of movement.
Using The sudden speed power will burn points out of the sandles and make me go slower for the rest of the day.
Spells: Message and feather fall
Evocation
Base focus power Energy ray at 2d6
Focus Power: Shape mastery (so i don't set my party on fire)
Spells: Dancing Lights, Burning Hands
Resonance: nothing here worth spending points on yet.
Illusion:
Base Focus power: Minor Figment
Focus power: Unseen
Resonance: 3 points in a ring . I can take a standard action to gain a 10% miss chance until I attack, or save it to cast real invisibility via unseen.