Maybe I'm just looking at it the wrong way, but I think you're overvaluing the "cool stuff" the Kineticist gets for Burn.
Because I can already get a caster to do much of it for me, without losing HP.
Frex: My Barbarian in Rise of the Runelords is a Huge Earth Elemental for the foreseeable future.
Because Polymorph Any Object is a spell.
True, but then you have to give up other spells. And I can change back and forth pretty much at will, you're stuck that way until he dispels you. And then he has to cast it again, costing more spell slots, which he can't have that many of. 8th level spell slots get expensive fast. Add that with the other buffs and bonuses, and how many spells a day does he need to give you the equivalent powers? Polymorph may last a week undisturbed, but Stoneskin lasts about 3 hours tops. It also costs 250 gold, has to be recast every 150 hit points, and when you run out of it you have to wait for the Wiz to have a spare turn to buff you instead of blasting things. Shield is a +4 to AC, good comparison to Water Shroud, but lasts only as much as 20 min before it goes out.
I'm not saying it's great, don't get me wrong I'd love more choices and more powerful, but it's certainly got a few distinct advantages baked into it that make it very different from just happening to have a wizard who can do it for you. Especially since I've yet to have anyone else in my games want to play a caster with utility spells. I know that sounds odd, it's just my group is very "Me! Me! MEMEMEMEME!" about combat roles. So not everyone has a caster to do that for them.
Out of curiosity, why doesn't Pushing Infusion work with Force Blast? It feels like that should work.
Huh I had not noticed that... it really should work.
that infusion is really weird...
So it doesn't require a bullrush anymore (unlikepressured blast infusion). pushes automatically 5ft.
But since it's based off bullrush that means you can't push people into areas that are unsafe right? so.. when would you actually need to push someone 5feet? I guess if you were runing away....
Though eventually I might just put it in tk blast because i have nothing else to add.
My problem with Pushing Infusion is that it's so weak compared to the other infusions, and even compared to regular old Bull Rush. Now, that said, if you took away the 5 foot max, I could see it being somewhat useful. If you left the five foot restriction, but removed the safety feature that you can't push them into dangerous places, I could also see it being useful.
Why do people think Bull Rush can't push people into dangerous positions?
It seems to be a pretty common misconception.
Huhm I relooked nope it doesn't
There is some ability or feat or something that references bullrush and doesn't allow to be pushed into danger. Thats why my brain has it associated I guess.
Well that makes it slightly better.. but I would rather have it like a normal bullrush so I can blast people far back.
Huh. What was it that lead me to believe that all this time? Now this move makes sense. Many throw or a cone attack can make this quite useful on a narrow bridge. Also my players now hate you. :)
It could also be useful on Chain form. If you let it push each opponent towards a new target, it may sometimes extend the range of the attack in certain situations.
Snaking should allow you to approach from side/behind the target, pushing in any direction. So if the enemy archer is standing on their end of the chasm shooting across at you, go over their head with the blast and gently nudge them right off.
Why do people think Bull Rush can't push people into dangerous positions?
It seems to be a pretty common misconception.
Because Reposition requires a special feat (Tactical Reposition) to move someone to a dangerous location. And maybe a little because people pushed into danger in 4e get a save to just fall prone instead.
Yep, reposition is what had me messed up. Now I see a lot of ways to use this. Snaking lets you pick a direction, many throw or spray let you hit more than one, chain can hit several people in various directions... I doubt anyone is taking 2 feats just for this, but does greater bull rush work with this? It does say you make a bull rush maneuver check. Neither ability specifies it wouldn't. I ask because if I have an opponent flanked, I can push them and let each ally make an AoO. That kind of auto-trigger could be worth a lot for certain AoO based characters. For one thing, if there's another kineticist in the group with Whip and Empowered/maximized Composite blast, it's a free strike at full BAB.
So I'll admit I haven't looked at the class itself too much, so I won't comment on it(beyond that taking CON damage to use my class features doesn't really sit right with me mechanic-wise).
However, I've seen the word balance being thrown a lot here, so I just want to say this to the guy designing the class.
Being worried about the class being overpowered is a reasonable thing to be worried about...is what I'd like to say, but this is Pathfinder. The Wizard, Arcanist, and other 9th level spellcasters exist. Honestly, the Kineticist being overpowered is the absolute last thing you should be worried about as long as they don't have access to 9th level spells.
Yep, reposition is what had me messed up. Now I see a lot of ways to use this. Snaking lets you pick a direction, many throw or spray let you hit more than one, chain can hit several people in various directions... I doubt anyone is taking 2 feats just for this, but does greater bull rush work with this? It does say you make a bull rush maneuver check. Neither ability specifies it wouldn't. I ask because if I have an opponent flanked, I can push them and let each ally make an AoO. That kind of auto-trigger could be worth a lot for certain AoO based characters. For one thing, if there's another kineticist in the group with Whip and Empowered/maximized Composite blast, it's a free strike at full BAB.
I'm under the impriession the aether/earth one no longer has any bullrush roll or anything. it just automatically moves.. so i'm not sure if that would count anymore?
In a dungeon scenario you rarely get more than 1-5 minutes between encounters. At least that's how we run them. Dungeon denizens rarely sit quietly waiting for adventurers to come slay them.
In PFS, I am constantly having GM's that rule my wizards minute/level spells always expire before the next encounter. It has gotten to the point that I no longer bother investing in an extend rod, I never got any benefit from it.
My guess is, as soon as a Kineticist says, "Cool, my Force Ward is fully regenerated." I'll start having my minute/level spells start lasting multiple encounters.
Does a creature using Elemental Body count as having hands?
While most people agree yes, a significant number still argue no.
The bestiary's make it rather obvious that elementals can look like whatever so that you can have fire dolphins on the sun and hawks made of smoke and giants made of rock. With the fire elemental text implying that they can even change what their form appears to be.
Also, both Earth Elemental and Magma Elemental Art has hands.
If you flavour your elemental form to have hands, like being a frog creature made of swamp water or an elf made of ice, you have hands.
That is my position.
But I still get tables where the GM rules differently when my magus casts elemental body and assumes air elemental form.
While the polymorph schools allows creatures with types other than humanoid to cast spells if they have hands, the only creature explicitly placed on the list is dragons. I have encountered more than a few GM's that rule; since only dragons are on the list, only dragons may cast spells with somatic components.
So I'll admit I haven't looked at the class itself too much, so I won't comment on it(beyond that taking CON damage to use my class features doesn't really sit right with me mechanic-wise).
However, I've seen the word balance being thrown a lot here, so I just want to say this to the guy designing the class.
Being worried about the class being overpowered is a reasonable thing to be worried about...is what I'd like to say, but this is Pathfinder. The Wizard, Arcanist, and other 9th level spellcasters exist. Honestly, the Kineticist being overpowered is the absolute last thing you should be worried about as long as they don't have access to 9th level spells.
The general view isn't that people are worried it's overpowered, but that the class is rather underpowered.
Artanthos wrote:
That is my position.
But I still get tables where the GM rules differently when my magus casts elemental body and assumes air elemental form.
While the polymorph schools allows creatures with types other than humanoid to cast spells if they have hands, the only creature explicitly placed on the list is dragons. I have encountered more than a few GM's that rule; since only dragons are on the list, only dragons may cast spells with somatic components.
Thats.... weird... Even if air elemental form was restricted to creatures of the air or something, shape your form into that of a dragon, since obviously that shape is fine to cast with.
I just came off a play test short adventure and thought I'd post some of the things that came up.
The party was called to a home where people had been having upsetting dreams and growing ill without any obvious reason. The party were all 10th level Occult Adventures classes, we had a Psychic, Medium, Spirtualist, and me as a Kineticist. Following some investigation we ended up in one of the people's dreams and fought some monsters responsible for the goings on.
We fought a Moon-Beast and two Witchfires
Telekinesis Talents:
It seemed odd during character creation that Telekinetic Finesse and Telekinetic Maneuver were different powers. What can one say of someone with Finesse & Haul but not Maneuver? He has the power to lift 1,000lbs, the control to pick a lock, but can't use telekinesis to trip someone or pull an item off their belt. I'm not taking a position on how many talents a Kineticist should get, but whatever number it is, it seems weird that Maneuver and Finesse are different talents.
No Occult Knowledge:
As we were trying to figure out what was going on with these weird nightmares and the dream plane there were Knowledge Arcana and Knowledge Planes checks getting tossed around. The Kineticist has neither as a class skill, meaning that my character didn't have any tools to explore this occult mystery. Presumably weird occult doings would be investigated by Arcana checks? If so, it seems like a thing all the occult classes should have as a class skill. As is, I was a telekinetic who didn't know anything about telekinesis, let alone other occult subjects.
Does Telekinetic Blast affect Incorporeal targets?:
In the fight the moon-beast went down quickly to empowered, maximized, ball bearings to the head. But what of the incorporeal Witchfires? One reaction was "of course, the blast counts as a magical attack, so it works but with half damage", but my reading was that the blast "All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction (my emphasis). Being incorporeal isn't damage reduction, so I can't touch the Witchfires. What's the intention? Even if some people disagree with my reading of the RAW, it invites that reading and could do with clarification.
A Little Thing:
I have snaking and Point Blank Shot. If my target is within 30 feet, and I snake the shot through a 60ft path to get there, do I get +1 to hit and damage?
An Inherited Thing:
Maybe it fits the playtest's scope, maybe it is an unrelated Core Rulebook problem, but Telekinetic grapples brought up lots of questions.
1) Can I use telekinetic grapple on an incorporeal target? We had determined I couldn't hit them with my blast, but the Telekinesis Wizard/Sorcerer spell can hit them.
2) Damage seems wonky. Having successfully telekinetically grappled my opponent, I wanted to squeeze for damage. How much damage? RAW seems to be my 1d3-2 unarmed strike damage. Seems like I should be able to crush folks better than that if that's my whole shtick.
3) In a similar way to #2, escaping my telekinetic grapple has nothing to do with my telekinetic power. Escaping targets my normal CMD as determined by my strength, dexterity, & base attack. Seems strange given my telekinetic CMB has nothing to do with any of those. Should the CMD to break a telekinetic grapple be a function of caster level and casting stat the way telekinetic CMB is?
4) Can I pin someone with telekinesis? If I start my turn as the attack in control of the grapple I can (as a standard action) try to turn the grapple into a pin. Alas, the Telekinesis spell lasts as long as concentrate (which is also a standard action). I can't take two standard actions in a turn, so can I just not grapple very well with telekinesis?
"Those aren't my problems, complain to whoever wrote the telekinesis spell." is a perfectly reasonable response, but given that my Kineticist has a very small bag of tricks in combat he'll be starting telekinetic grapples a lot more often than wizards do.
Big Picture / TLDR
With the exception of the knowledge complaint above, I think he has plenty of out of combat utility. The ability to remotely and delicately move 1,000 pound objects is incredibly versatile, I had plenty of fun stuff to do with that.
With the exception of incorporeal targets I couldn't touch, he had plenty of combat punch. He ended up with a +18 to hit (+7 bab, +7 dex, +3 Feel the Burn, +1 point blank shot) which is plenty to function at level 10. He was also doing massive damage with empowered maximized blasts. The evening was set up as a single encounter quick test so I was spending Burn like mad, but my consistent 0 Burn damage is still pretty respectable.
I'm much more favorably impressed after playing than I was on a cold reading. I worried about just having one trick ("I chuck a rock at it!") and that trick not even being that great (I had concerns when I built him with Con maxed rather than Dex and started looking at the AC's on CR 13 creatures...). In play I think the general telekinesis power is really flexible and fun and the combat worked out fine once I got his to hit up to a better level.
PS - A Personal Gripe
"Feel the Burn"? Really? No silly puns in my crunch please. Don't you know Pathfinder is serious business?
Does Telekinetic Blast affect Incorporeal targets?:
In the fight the moon-beast went down quickly to empowered, maximized, ball bearings to the head. But what of the incorporeal Witchfires? One reaction was "of course, the blast counts as a magical attack, so it works but with half damage", but my reading was that the blast "All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction (my emphasis). Being incorporeal isn't damage reduction, so I can't touch the Witchfires. What's the intention? Even if some people disagree with my reading of the RAW, it invites that reading and could do with clarification.
There was a FAQ clarifying yes, it works, very recently but I can't find it on the FAQ page.
Unless I was dreaming about the fact that there was a good FAQ?
[url=http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9sih\NVM I found it.[/url]
Apparently it was under the Bestiary page instead of the CRB page because...reasons I suppose.
Well my cryokineticist just hit L3, so he'll be seeing how much the Feel the Burn mechanic improves his Burn issues. Looking forward to getting his accuracy above 42%. (Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Ranged Touch attacks...and yes firing in the clear.)
Wow, it seems like your dice don't love you. Doing the math, a fighter with the same stat swinging into melee would only have a 2 point better to hit than you have (BAB on a 2nd level fighter is 1 better, and the fighter would be using a masterwork or magic weapon).
Plus the fighter is targeting full AC. I think maybe poor Rerednaw played through 2 levels in "The Ice Tombs of the Ghost Ninja Drow, and their White Dragon Rakshasa Queen" or something, to have tons of SR, cold immunity, and touch AC equal to full AC. SR is quite rare at level 1-2.
I roll the dice and document the result. I personally don't believe in dice love/hate. It's all random.
If folks are interested in more detail, I had already posted the first 3 mods I played. Those are in the playtest feedback:
The Confirmation.
The Accursed Vaults.
The Forgotten Laboratory.
I am compiling my round-by-round logs for Risen from the Sands and The Enigma Vaults from this week. On the positive side his accuracy took a huge jump or call it a statistical anomaly...I also inflicted my first critical hit. :D
On Touch AC. In my kineticist's playtests, at low level ranged touch AC wasn't that much lower than normal AC. For example, combat encounters with goblin archers (high dex, small) firing from higher ground with cover. Stirges (AC 16/Touch 16). Mosquito Swarm (AC 15/Touch 15).
Cold immune/resist or SR (or both)? Gray Ooze, Iron Cobra, Tieflings, Dretches...
I cannot speak for Ice Tombs of the Ghost Ninja Drow or White Dragon Rakshasa Queen, never heard of those sorry. :D These are regular adventures in Society or standard adventures (Thornkeep). Edit: Just realized was that sarcasm? It's late and I took the commentary literally. But a good AP to really challenge the cryo-kineticist would be Reign of Winter.
I just finished Enigma Vaults today. Without going into too much detail:
brief summary:
As I stated, his to-hit did take a jump up with both BAB and Burn taking effect. However...what he did shoot at:
Encounter 1: creatures immune to cold.
Encounter 2: creatures had cold resistance.
Encounter 3: creatures immune to cold.
Encounter 4: creatures had cold resistance.
Encounter 5: boss fight. Immune to cold and minions with cold resist 10.
Encounter 6: creature affected by cold normally.
Out of 6 total combat encounters, 83% were either resistant or immune to cold. This adventure has a level spread of 3-5. I played it at 3rd. Perhaps he would have fared better at 4th...are there any 4th level hydro kineticist abilities that bypass cold resistance/immunity?
To recap: So far, over his career, he has run into a lot of problematical mobs. I did not include encounters with animated objects...bypassing hardness is something kineticists simply cannot do (with exactly 1 exception)...but I never expected him to be able to cope with all situations.
And yes, I'm still having fun with him. If he survives I want to see if I can get to the magical 8th level. 7th for the next element, and 8th to have a talent that uses it.
I just did a playtest against my brothers character of equal level (4). With me having a dhampir kineticist (earth) who reflavoured his blast and powers to be bloodbending, using the metal in his blood; and my brother had a dhampir sorcerer/monk.
In the first battle I auto-won, because I was riding my dire bat pet and blasting with extended range. Second battle was in an inn's bar so I didn't have my bat and spent the battle trying to stay at range, but he was able to get in close rather quick and hit me with an unarmed attack + touch spell, him hitting once + me having a bit of burn = knocked out in one punch. I then beat him in a drinking contest, which was the third challenge.
The next challenges were more utility based and ranged from breaking into a house and stealing an heirloom to, gathering info on a target, walking around a city that hates undead and dhampir, and long distance travel... I succeeded at most of these compared to my brothers character, because his spells where mainly blasty except for charm person which had him annihilate me at gathering info.
But even with winning the challenges, overall my class abilities just sort of blasted, with all my utility seeming to come from my items and dire bat. So... I had more utility than a guy who blasts, because I choose different items... I feel like the class should probably have some in-class utility, despite the extra cash from not needing a weapon.
Edit: Also, I could only make a single knowledge check a day, which I got from the Possessed trait. That will likely diminish my utility abit.
So, I don't actually need a second full pkaytest (though I would love one), but I feel like some kind of list of potential/probable changes might be called for. I know this is my favorite Pathfinder class, so, I fully intend to play my kineticist between now and August when the book comes out, and I would really love to play a better character.
Just something like: "yeah, you get more skills, damage progression will probably become X, and you get wild talents every level now: evens for form/substance and odd for utility.
Speaking of which, does anyone know when the playtest is actually over?
So, I don't actually need a second full pkaytest (though I would love one), but I feel like some kind of list of potential/probable changes might be called for. I know this is my favorite Pathfinder class, so, I fully intend to play my kineticist between now and August when the book comes out, and I would really love to play a better character.
Just something like: "yeah, you get more skills, damage progression will probably become X, and you get wild talents every level now: evens for form/substance and odd for utility.
Speaking of which, does anyone know when the playtest is actually over?
I'd like to second this. This is really the only reason I want a second playtest document, so some of the weaker classes (Kineticist, Medium [pre-4] and Mesmerist) are effectively playable in PFS. Especially since it seems no one disagrees the Kineticist needs more skills per level.
I would love something like that too.. though I don't play PFS (not really much of any groups up here in the cold. Randomly one here and there i guess). If it was more updated to how it would be mighgt be able to get it allowed in some more games..
Mark, could you get a clarification put in at the top of the thread about Deadly Aim only working on blasts that target full AC not Touch AC?
Also
With the Pyrokineticist's Searing Flesh I'm assuming it also triggers with melee touch attacks. If this is correct then there may be a bit of a problem when it comes to receiving Healing as all the cure spells are range touch. If the Pyrokineticist goes unconscious they can't even turn it off to let the cleric heal them without taking damage.
This playtest will remain open until November 25th (although we will keep it open for an additional round of playtesting if feedback warrants any significant revisions).
Darn so soon. I probably won't get another game in.. having a hard time finding any online games. (real lack of games up here in the cold). Was hoping to do more prior to it..
well unless they decide to toss out a 2nd go.. which would be cool since it increases the chances of me getting to use it until it comes out in my main game..
This playtest will remain open until November 25th (although we will keep it open for an additional round of playtesting if feedback warrants any significant revisions).
I suppose this depends on what they consider significant revisions. I feel the kineticist deserves a second round of playtests, even with a less pretty pdf set up and instead just calling out a list of changes. There are a lot of wording clarifications and a lot of numbers changing and I feel like a lot of extra flesh could be added that we can look at and discuss. Altogether, though the bones are solid I feel like the changes here do warrant a new look. Maybe we'll get lucky with that.
And even without a revision for the kineticist, we may keep the current playtest package a little longer if one of the other classes sees significant reviews. I doubt they'd shut down just the parts that they said were alright.
Hey all been going through this whole conversation was funny. Learned a lot of good things as well as had some questions answered. Put me up for increasing skills to 4. As well as the "Geo" for the name. EDIT {Put me down for the increasing BAB and Larger HD} Now I went ahead and created a Kineticist as well, but I decided to start with Earth since most people are only building the water. So I wanted to go with the opposite so we could get an idea on the strengths. I made him level 12.
20 Point Buy
Human Geokineticist Lvl 12
Normal ----- Elemental Form
Str 10 0 --- 14 2
Dex 25 7 --- 25 7
Con 22 6 --- 22 6
Int 10 0 --- 10 0
Wis 10 0 --- 10 0
Cha 10 0 --- 10 0
Hp 159 --- 135 ----- 111
Ac 26 --- 31 ------ 31
Tch 16 --- 16 ------ 16
Flat 19 --- 24 ------ 24
DR 6/Ada --- 6/Ada --- 8/Ada
-----------------------------
Fort 16 Ref 17 Will 7
Infusion Specialization Form
Infusion Specialization Form
Infusion Specialization Substance
Wild Talents
Pushing Infusion -- Burn 1 Substance
Kinetic Blade ----- Burn 1 Form
Extended Range ---- Burn 1 Form
Rare Metal Infusion Burn 2 Substance
Expanded Element -- NA ---- SU
Kinetic Whip ------ Burn 2 Form
Kinetic Form ------ Burn 2 SP
Ride the Blast ---- NA ---- SP
Earth Climb ------- NA ---- SU
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +6
Ioun Stone Onyx Rhomboid X2 +4
Lenses of Detection
Cape of free Will
+3 Mithral Shirt
Misc Adventuring Gear
Well that is my Character playing with him and building him was fun. I originally had the higher Con but switched to Dex to get a higher AC and to improve my chances of hitting my targets.
Playing him I am at a distance I use my Blast attack to hit and Ride the blast to get next to them. That way I am set up next turn for a Full Attack with Kinetic Blade.
Something to note, I am willing to trade dodge out for Improved Initiative. To help further my chances of going first.
If you are fighting a tough foe, magma blast comes in handy if you are willing to take the burn for it. Makes it nice with Infusion Specialization then I do not take extra burn for getting a full attack with it.
So what do you all think of my character? I hope this helps people if they wanted to see a character that was not just a water blast type.
Actually take me out of the vote for Increasing BAB and HD
I have made a few other LVL 12 characters and compared all through combat and a small adventure.
To compare to my lvl 12 fighter.
HP 101 AC 33 TCH 14 FF 29
Fort 12 Ref 9 Will 8
Attack Bastard sword
+26 +21 +16 for 1d10 +16 (21 Average per attack)
Now my Kineticist in elemental form and 2 Burn for Increased DR
Hp 111 AC 31 TCH 16 FF 24 DR 8/Adamantine
Fort 16 Ref 17 Will 7
Attack Kinetic Blade (Earth)
+21 +16 for 6d6 +6 +6 +4 (37 Average per attack)
The damage out put is so much higher which I believe equals out the lower attack. Add in my Kineticist by taking 2 more burn can do almost double the damage he does now.
So, I don't actually need a second full pkaytest (though I would love one), but I feel like some kind of list of potential/probable changes might be called for. I know this is my favorite Pathfinder class, so, I fully intend to play my kineticist between now and August when the book comes out, and I would really love to play a better character.
Just something like: "yeah, you get more skills, damage progression will probably become X, and you get wild talents every level now: evens for form/substance and odd for utility.
Speaking of which, does anyone know when the playtest is actually over?
I fully intend to give you guys a list of my key observations and some likely changes. They won't be guarantees, but they'll be likely. It'll be right at the end of the playtest, after I've had time to talk to the other designers too and make sure they're OK with my ideas (thus increasing the chances that "likely" becomes reality).
Well my cryokineticist just hit L3, so he'll be seeing how much the Feel the Burn mechanic improves his Burn issues. Looking forward to getting his accuracy above 42%. (Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Ranged Touch attacks...and yes firing in the clear.)
Wow, it seems like your dice don't love you. Doing the math, a fighter with the same stat swinging into melee would only have a 2 point better to hit than you have (BAB on a 2nd level fighter is 1 better, and the fighter would be using a masterwork or magic weapon).
Plus the fighter is targeting full AC. I think maybe poor Rerednaw played through 2 levels in "The Ice Tombs of the Ghost Ninja Drow, and their White Dragon Rakshasa Queen" or something, to have tons of SR, cold immunity, and touch AC equal to full AC. SR is quite rare at level 1-2.
I roll the dice and document the result. I personally don't believe in dice love/hate. It's all random.
If folks are interested in more detail, I had already posted the first 3 mods I played. Those are in the playtest feedback:
The Confirmation.
The Accursed Vaults.
The Forgotten Laboratory.
I am compiling my round-by-round logs for Risen from the Sands and The Enigma Vaults from this week. On the positive side his accuracy took a huge jump or call it a statistical anomaly...I also inflicted my first critical hit. :D
On Touch AC. In my kineticist's playtests, at low level ranged touch AC wasn't that much lower than normal AC. For example, combat encounters with goblin archers (high dex, small) firing from higher ground with cover. Stirges (AC 16/Touch 16). Mosquito Swarm (AC 15/Touch 15).
Cold immune/resist or SR (or both)? Gray Ooze, Iron Cobra, Tieflings, Dretches...
I cannot speak for Ice Tombs of the Ghost Ninja Drow or White Dragon Rakshasa Queen, never heard of those sorry. :D These are regular adventures in Society or standard adventures (Thornkeep). Edit: Just realized was that...
Not sarcastic at all, just commiseration on the bad luck. While it's not a Paizo scenario, it's very possible your GM came up with a similar sort of adventure to that one. As to Enigma Vaults, yeah, that's a tough one, and the last fight is a TPK waiting to happen for a party of all level 3s.
So, I don't actually need a second full pkaytest (though I would love one), but I feel like some kind of list of potential/probable changes might be called for. I know this is my favorite Pathfinder class, so, I fully intend to play my kineticist between now and August when the book comes out, and I would really love to play a better character.
Just something like: "yeah, you get more skills, damage progression will probably become X, and you get wild talents every level now: evens for form/substance and odd for utility.
Speaking of which, does anyone know when the playtest is actually over?
I fully intend to give you guys a list of my key observations and some likely changes. They won't be guarantees, but they'll be likely. It'll be right at the end of the playtest, after I've had time to talk to the other designers too and make sure they're OK with my ideas (thus increasing the chances that "likely" becomes reality).
Is there a ball park guess as to when that might be?
Do i read it right that you can not do more than 1 blast per round no matter what ur bab is? the kenetic blade does same damage as the blast but uses ur bab to decide number of hits per turn, i feel a ranged kineticist should increase their number of blasts to match what the blade can do.
Pressurized blast and Pushing should use your class lvl+con mod, not standard cmd(since their bab progression is lacking), and a 5 foot push is pointless, keep the normal bull rush rules that allow you to exceed the base check for additional push.
Do i read it right that you can not do more than 1 blast per round no matter what ur bab is? the kenetic blade does same damage as the blast but uses ur bab to decide number of hits per turn, i feel a ranged kineticist should increase their number of blasts to match what the blade can do.
That may be true, but the whip also helps utilize with some reach. Add in you can add in all kinds of other wild talents to do so much more, which all cost burn as the blade does as well. So it evens out with you having to burn to use the blade. Or to burn to use lets say Explosion if you use fire. To center the explosion anywhere within 120 feet of you, and you can choose the radius of the spread to be 5, 10, 15, or 20 feet. All creatures and objects within the explosion take your blast’s damage. The saving throw DC is Dexterity-based.
Do i read it right that you can not do more than 1 blast per round no matter what ur bab is? the kenetic blade does same damage as the blast but uses ur bab to decide number of hits per turn, i feel a ranged kineticist should increase their number of blasts to match what the blade can do.
You're missing the fact that it requires a move action to Empower your blast for free. Empowered Blast is essentially the full attack for a ranged kineticist.
The math indicates that it's still weaker than it should be damage-wise IIRC, though, so there will be some changes there.
Am I the only one who thinks the Kineticist's skills should be increased to a minimum of 6+int? I feel the Kineticist is best used as a sort of 'jack of all trades' kind of character. Not as much as the Bard, but more so the Inquisitor with a decent skill selection and solid combat support.
That, and when I go through the 3/4 BAB classes, I noticed something with skills:
Classes with 8 skill points per level - Rogue, Ninja
Classes with 6 skill points per level - Bard, Inquisitor, Hunter, Investigator, Shaman
Classes with 4 skill points per level - Alchemist, Druid, Monk, Oracle, Skald
Classes with 2 skill points per level - Cleric, Magus, Summoner, Warpriest
With the exception of Rogue, Ninja and Monk, all of the 3/4 BAB classes have 6th level casting or higher. When it comes to versatility and utility, 6th level casting is always going to trumph over the wild talents of the kineticist, but many of the 6th level casters have 6 skill points per level (or are intelligence focused so it doesn't matter).
I mean, the Investigator and Bard are tied for the best skill monkeys in the game, with Rogue and Ninja hot on their heels and the Inquisitor isn't too far behind. I'm not saying the Kineticist should be as good as these guy, but putting him at 6 skill points would make him better able to contribute to the group.
I mean, when I think of the skills the Kineticist is going to want to have, I picture myself desiring Acrobatics, a Craft skill (related to the element), Diplomacy/Intimidate, Fly, Heal, Knowledge (arcana), Knoweldge (engineering), Knowledge (planes), Perception, Stealth and Use Magic Device. Some of these are purely mechanical reasons, but some are, I think, thematically linked to the class and could be granted via the elemental type.
For example, Telekinetics, Pyrokinetics and Aerokinetics are all going to want Fly as a skill because they'll need it for maneuvering, where as I could easily see Geokinetics and Hydrokinetics wanting Craft with Geokinetics wanting Knowledge (engineering) etc.
You might go with a base class list of Acrobatics, Craft (all), Intimidate, Heal, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (planes, Profession (all) Stealth and Use Magic Device, with the elements expanding the list.
Aerokinetics: +1/2 level to Acrobatics checks, Fly and Sense Motive become class skills.
Geokinetic: +1/2 level to Craft checks dealing with earth, Climb and Knowledge (engineering) become class skills.
Hydrokinetic: +1/2 level to Heal checks, Diplomacy and Swim become class skills.
Pyrokinetic: +1/2 level to Intimidate, Fly and Survival* become class skils
Telekinetic:+1/2 level to Intimidate, Fly and Spellcraft* become class skills.
*These skills may or may not match the element as the element itself is a little hard to nail down, skill wise.
I wouldn't mind mor skills to make them sorta "fill in the gap" guy.
Seeing as they seemingly make great switch hitters they could fill in the gap of the group quite well..
A lot of skills + the utility they have (or at least my aether guy) and they could fill in a lot of open space as needed.
I'm already likely to have less dex or ocn for skills considering how few players my main games tend to have.
Alrighty, I'm going to do a basic compare and contrast of that damage progression table I made the other day with a similar Fighter progression. I'm using the GameMastery guideline that PC's should spend no more than 25% of WBL on any given item. So at lvl 5 he can have a +1 weapon (2000) because these numbers are a quarter of WBL at that point. I'll also be adding a belt in there somewhere, it looks like a single stat +2 belt is 4000, so I'll see that when it becomes 25% of WBL, at LVL 6.
I'll mark the effective + of the weapon, but I'll note the damage as if every other + was an extra D6 ability, like Shock. So first weapon upgrade is EB +1. Second is Flaming, and third is EB+2, and so forth. We'll start with the same assumption of 18 in your primary Attack/DMG stat. I'll start with a 20/x2 weapon, to make crit comparisons easier. I chose a Flail, a Lucern Hammer, and two Saps. These give us D8 One Handed Weapon, D12 Two Handed Weapon, and a pair of D6 Light Two Weapon Fighting Weapons. Yes, I know the Saps deal nonlethal, yes I know the Lucern Hammer is a reach weapon, I didn't have many great options with a 20/x2 crit.
LVL 4 [To Hit +8] (Adding 1 to our stat here, but it's an odd number)
8.5 OH
12.5 THF
7.5/5.5 [+6/+6] TWF
LVL 5 [To Hit +11] (At this stage, we get +1 weapons. I assume the TWF gets two of these, because nobody actually holds to the 25% rule, especially TWF's. Also, Weapon Training +1)
10.5 OH
14.5 THF
9.5/7.5 [+9/+9] TWF
LVL 6 [To Hit +13/+8] (Here we get a belt of +2 to our stat. We also get an extra attack iterative, and our TWF gets Improved TWF.)
11.5+11.5 OH
15.5+15.5 THF
10.5/7.5/10.5/7.5 [+11/+11/+6/+6] TWF
LVL 8 [To Hit +16/+11] Here we get to add another +1 to our stat, an even number of 22 after our belt. We also pick up new magic weapons, adding a D6 of damage.
16+16 OH
21+21 THF
15/12/15/12 [+14/+14/+9/+9] TWF
LVL 9 [To Hit +18/+13] (Weapon Training +2)
17+17 OH
21+21 THF
16/13/16/13 [+16/+16/+11/+11] TWF
LVL 10 [To Hit +20/+15] Let's now bump our belt up to a +4, for a stat mod of +7.
18+18 OH
23+23 THF
17/13/17/13 [+18/+18/+13/+13] TWF
LVL 11 [To Hit +22/+17/+12] (Welcome to the third Iterative. Also GTWF. Also +3 Weapons, so I'm adding an EB this time.)
19+19+19 OH
24+24+24 THF
18/14/18/14/18/14 [+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10] TWF
LVL 12 [To Hit +23/+18/+13] (Stat bonus, but it's an odd number of 25)
19+19+19 OH
24+24+24 THF
18/14/18/14/18/14 [+21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11] TWF
LVL 13 [To Hit +25/+20/+15] (New weapons! Now we have a +2 EB and +2D6 of extra damage. Weapon Training +3)
23.5+23.5+23.5 OH
28.5+28.5+28.5 THF
22.5/17.5/22.5/17.5/22.5/17.5 [+23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13] TWF
LVL 14 [To Hit +27/+22/+17] (Our belt is now a +6, putting our primary stat at 27, a +8.)
24.5+24.5+24.5 OH
30.5+30.5+30.5 THF
23.5/19.5/23.5/19.5/23.5/19.5 [+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15] TWF
LVL 15 [To Hit +29/+24/+19] (We get a +5 weapon now, so +1 to our EB this level.)
25.5+25.5+25.5 OH
31.5+31.5+31.5 THF
24.5/20.5/24.5/20.5/24.5/20.5 [+27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17] TWF
LVL 16 [To Hit +31/+26/+21/+16] (This level, we add our last Iterative, and our final stat point. We now have a 28 in our primary stat, for a total of +9. We also pick up yet another Weapon! This will happen often from here out. We are at an EB +3 and 3D6 of extra damage.
30+30+30+30 OH
36+36+36+36 THF
29/24/29/24/29/24/29 [+29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+19/+14] TWF
LVL 17 [To Hit +34/+29/+24/+19] (New Weapon, +4 EB and +3D6. Weapon Training +4)
32+32+32+32 OH
38+38+38+38 THF
31/26/31/26/31/26/31 [+32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17] TWF
LVL 18 [To Hit +35/+30/+25/+20] (Weapon is now +4 EB/+4D6.)
35.5+35.5+35.5+35.5 OH
41.5+41.5+41.5+41.5 THF
34.5/29.5/34.5/29.5/34.5/29.5/34.5 [+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18] TWF
LVL 19 [To Hit +37/+32/+27/+22] (Weapon is now EB+5 and +4D6)
36.5+36.5+36.5+36.5 OH
42.5+42.5+42.5+42.5 THF
35.5/30.5/35.5/30.5/35.5/30.5/35.5 [+35/+35/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20] TWF
LVL 20 [To Hit +38/+33/+28/+23] (Yes, I know I've exhausted Flaming/Shock/Frost/Corrosive. I don't know what other bonus to put on here that's fairly universal, so let's just say for the sake of argument that we added something that was, in the long run, worth approximately 1D6 per hit on average. +5 EB and +5D6)
40+40+40+40 OH
46+46+46+46 THF
39/34/39/34/39/34/39 [+35/+35/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20] TWF
Kineticist Damage and Accuracy Over 20 LvLs:
vL 1 [To Hit +4]
1D6+1+Con
3.5+1+4
8.5 Regular
or
1D6+1/2Con
3.5+2
5.5 Touch
LvL 2 [To Hit +5]
No Change
LvL 3 [To Hit +7] (FtB+1)
15 Regular
10 Touch
LvL 4 [To Hit +8] (Stat is now 19, no change)
No Change
LvL 5 [To Hit +8] (We learn Empower, and use a move action to use it religiously)
18.5 Regular
27.5 Regular Empower
13.5 Touch
19.5 Touch Empower
LvL 8 [To Hit +14/+9]](Things get Iterative, Stat is now 20 (+5) with a +2 belt 22 (+6), if you can't afford 4,000 out of 33,000 WBL for a belt of +2 you have problems. Note that you can't use Iteratives WITH Empower yet. Those work off Regular damage unless you want to take burn.)
26 Regular
39 Regular Empower
20 Touch
30 Touch Empower
LvL 12 [To Hit +20/+15] (Stat is 21 with a +4 belt now, so 25 (+7), it's less than 20% of your WBL, FtB +4)
38 Regular
57 Regular Empower
29 Touch
43 Touch Empower
LvL 15 [To Hit +24/+19/+14] (It gets interesting here. FtB +5, Composite takes over Empower as the #1 Damage Dealer, by a surprisingly small amount though. I'll continue to add Empower for those who do not take Expanded Element, or for Aetherists. Iteratives are now hitting up to 3 times, all on a level where the dice count goes up as well, and a +6 belt is around 1/7 of WBL, not at all unreasonable to assume. Stats are now 27 (+8))
49 Regular
73 Regular Empower
85 Regular Composite
37 Touch
55 Touch Empower
65 Touch Composite (BFB Only)
(It is worth noting at this point that the Force Blast deals regular Touch attack damage, which means you'd need to be against an immunity or a Resistance 30+ for it to be better than BFB)
LvL 16 [To Hit +26/+21/+16] (Add 1 to main stat for the last time, Stat is now a 28 (+9))
50 Regular
75 Regular Empower
86 Regular Composite
37 Touch
55 Touch Empower
65 Touch Composite (BFB Only)
LvL 19 [To Hit +29/+24/+19] (Here's the cap, where you do 10D6 and you can Empower a Composite blast at no cost but the move action. You can also now Empower your Iterative attacks.)
60 Regular
90 Regular Empower
105 Regular Composite
157 Regular Empower Composite
45 Touch
67 Touch Empower
80 Touch Composite (BFB Only)
120 Touch Empower Composite (BFB Only)
So, today, I thought about how I might build a character that didn't melee. What sort of infusions would I want? I am a hydrkineticist and so thought, "oh, entangling looks cool." So, I started to analyze the value of substance specializations and, well, it didn't look good (more on that later).
However, t was then that I noticed something...terrible from my perspective: even though I am the right kind of element, I won't have the right kind of blast until 7th or 15th. These infusions are not just locked per element, they are locked per blast!
I charted it out by basic blast, because, I am sorry, nobody is using composite blasts before 15th and you'd be a fool to take infusions and specializations around the tactics you'll use for the last 5 levels (unless you really have nothing better to take).
So, here are the numbers, excluding totally universal infusions (there are six, all form: extended, extreme, blade, fist, whip, and snaking):
There are two infusions that work ONLY with composites: pure flame (which is worth it for fire) and rare metal (which probably isn't for earth).
Electricity, fire, and cold have 2; air, water, and tk have 3; earth has 4.
However, we all know the 5' bullrush on a 3/4 BAB class that can't afford the feats is pretty much garbage, right? So, that leaves every one with 2 except earth with 3.
Of those, how many substance infusions are there? Air, water, and tk gets no substances (remember, ignoring the bullrush).
Electricity gets magnetic, which is actually a really nice debuff, but it takes to substance infusion specializations to make it work, and they basically do nothing else for you (unless you dip into another element.
Fire gets Burning, which is ok early and pointless late. I think fire guys probably want to use their pre-empower move actions on it, the swap it out at 6th.
Earth gets Entangling, which is legitimately good. Totally worth taking two specializations for (but probably not your first 2).
Cold is the real substance infusion winner with two excellent options: chilling (staggered? Yes, please!) and entangling.
So, what does this mean?
If you use earth or electricity, consider 2 points of substance spec, but don't prioritize above your key forms.
If you are fire, you have a tough choice between pure flame and explosions, because you don't have enough specs for both.
Cold, though, could definitely do to specialize in substance. It's just a shame that there are none to take before 6th.
Everyone else? Join me in bugging Mark to make substance not suck so bad. Expand the list with better conditions. Maybe open up who can take what. I coukd easily see electricty having a lingering damage effect like burn (cold, too). Most of them could fatigue. Electricty could stagger, too. I see no reason water, air, or tk couldn't entangle.
Speaking of water, I find it silly that I can create ice slicks with Slick, walls of ice with kinetic cover, and iceman my way around the sky with ice path whether I know cold blast or not, but I can't entangle without using cold blast. And that, by the way, makes no sense, because you need water to create ice anyway. Just let water blast be ice, too, please.
Possible idea off the top of my head, substance infusions change the substance of your blast until you use a different substance. That way, they are like all day buffs unless you use lots of elements and I could justify the high burn costs.
I'm showing, without any extreme optimization on either side, an 8 point gap in accuracy (40%) over the course of the 20 levels. By level 10 this is a marked 4 point (20%) gap. HOWEVER...
The Kineticist has nearly a 50% damage increase on the first hit at level 10, before Empowering. In fact, if the Kineticist hits with his empowered blast, it does about the same damage at lvl 10 as if the THF had hit with both attacks, and his second attack has marginally lower chance to hit than the Kineticist's blast does. If he only hits with one of the two attacks, the Kineticist can pull ahead in DPR. And the Kineticist does that from 30 feet away. The two weapon fighter can swing an average of 60 a round if they connect with all four attacks at that level, but the kineticist is dropping 46 in the same turn hitting once, from 30 feet away, with his empower. And now there's only a 2 point gap in the accuracy, with the second pair of iteratives falling significantly behind the Kineticist in accuracy at that point.
Well I have a suggestion/request. Move some of the 10th level powers up to 8th. I would like see some of the flexiblity earlier and I think that may help. Perhaps add a "burn tax" if you pick up powers early, the tax is removed at 10th. Maybe carry this suggestion across the power list.
Switchable slots/powers. Much like arcanist or a prepared caster who leaves slots open. Perhaps have 1 power slot every 6 levels switchable. The power slot cannot be the highest that is available. Switching out a power means that any continuous effects (i.e. Kinetic Form, Kinetic Cover) that is switched out is dispelled.
Add 4th level powers. Believe this has already been mentioned. Existing powers/feats are written with 4th powers in mind, but they don't exist.
I know this has also been mentioned: DCs for all talents must scale. Treat like a witch/spirit shaman curse/hex...
Again thanks Mr. Seifer for this playtest opportunity, I am really enjoying the class!
I kind of hope that all of the Wild Talents get scaling spell levels and DCs based on the character level rather than static numbers like they do right now. That way the Kineticist won't feel like he'll need to replace all of his low level infusions because of the low save DCs (like burning).
Alrighty, I'm going to do a basic compare and contrast of that damage progression table I made the other day with a similar Fighter progression. I'm using the GameMastery guideline that PC's should spend no more than 25% of WBL on any given item. So at lvl 5 he can have a +1 weapon (2000) because these numbers are a quarter of WBL at that point. I'll also be adding a belt in there somewhere, it looks like a single stat +2 belt is 4000, so I'll see that when it becomes 25% of WBL, at LVL 6.
I'll mark the effective + of the weapon, but I'll note the damage as if every other + was an extra D6 ability, like Shock. So first weapon upgrade is EB +1. Second is Flaming, and third is EB+2, and so forth. We'll start with the same assumption of 18 in your primary Attack/DMG stat. I'll start with a 20/x2 weapon, to make crit comparisons easier. I chose a Flail, a Lucern Hammer, and two Saps. These give us D8 One Handed Weapon, D12 Two Handed Weapon, and a pair of D6 Light Two Weapon Fighting Weapons. Yes, I know the Saps deal nonlethal, yes I know the Lucern Hammer is a reach weapon, I didn't have many great options with a 20/x2 crit.
** spoiler omitted **...
So what's the moral of this story is what? That choosing weapons that don't have any synergy with the fighters class features is a bad idea?
So, today, I thought about how I might build a character that didn't melee. What sort of infusions would I want? I am a hydrkineticist and so thought, "oh, entangling looks cool." So, I started to analyze the value of substance specializations and, well, it didn't look good (more on that later).
However, t was then that I noticed something...terrible from my perspective: even though I am the right kind of element, I won't have the right kind of blast until 7th or 15th. These infusions are not just locked per element, they are locked per blast!
I charted it out by basic blast, because, I am sorry, nobody is using composite blasts before 15th and you'd be a fool to take infusions and specializations around the tactics you'll use for the last 5 levels (unless you really have nothing better to take).
So, here are the numbers, excluding totally universal infusions (there are six, all form: extended, extreme, blade, fist, whip, and snaking):
There are two infusions that work ONLY with composites: pure flame (which is worth it for fire) and rare metal (which probably isn't for earth).
Electricity, fire, and cold have 2; air, water, and tk have 3; earth has 4.
However, we all know the 5' bullrush on a 3/4 BAB class that can't afford the feats is pretty much garbage, right? So, that leaves every one with 2 except earth with 3.
Of those, how many substance infusions are there? Air, water, and tk gets no substances (remember, ignoring the bullrush).
Electricity gets magnetic, which is actually a really nice debuff, but it takes to substance infusion specializations to make it work, and they basically do nothing else for you (unless you dip into another element.
Fire gets Burning, which is ok early and pointless late. I think fire guys probably want to use their pre-empower move actions on it, the swap it out at 6th.
Earth gets Entangling, which is legitimately good. Totally worth taking two specializations for (but probably not your first 2).
Cold is the real substance...
Yep. All of that. Entangling and Chilling are awesome, but they're the only two substances I'd take consistently right now. My solid earth took Magnetic and Rare Earth, but only because he had the space, and it was a tight fit. I'd have not bothered with Rare Earth at all, but I took it at 20 because Reverse Shift didn't fit the character build.
I almost feel like as few substances as there are that you could have them be a toggle, an extra. A tiny bit more extreme than what you were describing, I don't feel these should be listed under Infusions at all. They should be Other Talents. You pick up the Substance (Ice) Other talent and can now choose between 3 different Substances that infuse your powers all day long. You pay 2 burn to activate Substances, and 1 burn to switch them as a standard action Later levels another Talent allows you to reduce these numbers by 1 each. Infusion Specialization is now just for Form Infusions, which is what most people are using it for anyways, for the most part. Take it again to get the three infusions for Water, the three for Earth, the three for pick any element and it should have about three infusions. The ones for TK can be adding a CMB move on hit, Trip, Disarm, and Bull Rush are three great choices for that.
This would make Substance Infusion abilities more standard across the class, which is probably a good thing. It could even decide the difference in not having to raise flat damage (which, when I look at my comparison sheet between fighters and Kineticists, may actually not be necessary, especially if Substances were more commonplace) for the class. After all, deal slightly less damage for the possibility of AoE Status Effects? There's not a whole lot of classes that currently specialize in Debuff. This is probably my favorite character build concept for this class, in fact. It just makes sense for an Earth Bender (yes, yes, I know, some of you like different terms, but let's face it, EVERY Earth character does these things, regardless of the show) to mess with the terrain under their enemy's feet, and to weigh them down in stone suits. I could see one infusion for Earth being Stone Coffin. You surround your foe (on a failed Reflex) in an earthen suit. It grants DR10/Adamantium but causes Pinned with a Str check, a damage limit on the material, or an Escape Artist to break free.
