The class does have a few issues, low skills, low utility, low damage, but the core mechanics are sound.
Sooo, it can't do anything but the mechanics are sound... What?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mark has mentioned the reason the feat has harsher than normal level restrictions is because he doesn't want to let people get ahold of more of the high level talents than they should have, because everyone will want all of them at once. I mean, look how awesome Reverse Shift has the potential to be? Do you want to give that away for a single feat?
Spell Sunder is pretty rad too. Ditto a lot of Alchemist Discoveries. Like, iunno, Eternal Potion. BRB having Displacement up all day every day.
I can get both for a Feat.
Nothing this class can do is really so stellar that it warrants this restriction.
|
If a class is not suited to your playstyle, don't play it. There are quite a few classes I disagree with and won't play.Then why don't you stop replying to this thread and be content with whatever comes out? After all, you don't have to play the class...
Try including the second half of my statement, where I pointed out issues with the class I do feel need to be addressed.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The class does have a few issues, low skills, low utility, low damage, but the core mechanics are sound.Sooo, it can't do anything but the mechanics are sound... What?
Numerical values are a separate issue from mechanics. Mechanically the class works as intended. Values need to be adjusted and utility powers need to be separated from combat powers, but those are minor changes and won't affect how the feels or functions.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't have a problem with Burn. I get far more out of it than what it costs me.Well... I do have a problem with Burn and it cost me more than it's worth.You are free to not use Burn.
Those of use who enjoy the benefits offered feel the reward is worth the cost, and will have much stronger characters for taking advantage of the Burn mechanics as they currently exist.
Very egotistical of you to speak as if the way you play is the "One True Method" and everyone else who does it is wrong.
In your opinion you feel that Burn is worth the benefit. In my opinion, and many others based off the posts I've been reading in the playtest, it does not.
That's not to say my opinion is correct, nor is yours. This may be confirmation bias speaking here, but, from what I've seen, I would say most people do not feel the return rate of spending burn is worth the cost.
You also seem to be focusing on the cost of burn in the most optimal useage of the Burn ability.
Not every player is going to be a geokinetic, or a hydrokinetic, or use Kinetic Form. Not every person is going to want to be forced to play as an elemental in order to be fully functional as a character.
Geokinetics, Hydrokinetics and Kinetic Form have the most optimal return rate on accruing Burn, this is true. But what about everyone else? Aerokinetics and Pyrokinetics both Kinetic Form, but all of their other abilities are rather lackluster when it comes to taking burn damage. Aetherkinetics don't get Kinetic Form, but their Force Ward is pretty decent for the first 2 points of burn, but after that it's really not worth it.
Fact of the matter is, outside a handful of abilities, most of the return rates on burn is not worth the cost. However, this can be fairly easily tweaked in the finished product.
==========================
I like the Burn mechanic, but I think it needs tweaking to make it more worth the cost. If the majority of people don't want to use Burn because they feel it's not worth the cost, outside of a single optimal path, then it needs to be fixed.
The class is not designed only for those who can optimize it, it's designed for everyone to make use of it.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Very egotistical of you to speak as if the way you play is the "One True Method" and everyone else who does it is wrong.In your opinion you feel that Burn is worth the benefit. In my opinion, and many others based off the posts I've been reading in the playtest, it does not.
That's not to say my opinion is correct, nor is yours. This may be confirmation bias speaking here, but, from what I've seen, I would say most people do not feel the return rate of spending burn is worth the cost.
The benefits of burn can and have been broken down as straight numbers. Not opinion; fact.
You also seem to be focusing on the cost of burn in the most optimal useage of the Burn ability.
Not every player is going to be a geokinetic, or a hydrokinetic, or use Kinetic Form. Not every person is going to want to be forced to play as an elemental in order to be fully functional as a character.
Geokinetics, Hydrokinetics and Kinetic Form have the most optimal return rate on accruing Burn, this is true. But what about everyone else? Aerokinetics and Pyrokinetics both Kinetic Form, but all of their other abilities are rather lackluster when it comes to taking burn damage. Aetherkinetics don't get Kinetic Form, but their Force Ward is pretty decent for the first 2 points of burn, but after that it's really not worth it.
Not everyone will use class abilities in the most optimal manner, and that is your choice.
However, nobody is going to be sympathetic when an unoptimized character performs at far below the classes potential. Instead, they will point out what you did wrong and encourage you to build a more effective character.
Right now, the optimized and effective kineticist maximizes his FtB every morning on defensive powers, he grabs Kinetic Form at level 10 and uses it with 2 points of burn religiously, and he avoids taking additional burn unless absolutely necessary.
Kinetic form is available to every except the character who goes dual Aetherkinetic. The ability requirements are simply that you are 10th level and have access to the elements. The same with expanded defense: my Aerokinetic puts Burn into Shroud of Water.
Fact of the matter is, outside a handful of abilities, most of the return rates on burn is not worth the cost. However, this can be fairly easily tweaked in the finished product.
Read any optimization guide. This is true of every class. Some abilities and choices are always better than others.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...I don't have a problem with Burn. I get far more out of it than what it costs me.Well... I do have a problem with Burn and it cost me more than it's worth.You are free to not use Burn.
Those of use who enjoy the benefits offered feel the reward is worth the cost, and will have much stronger characters for taking advantage of the Burn mechanics as they currently exist.
Very egotistical of you to speak as if the way you play is the "One True Method" and everyone else who does it is wrong.
In your opinion you feel that Burn is worth the benefit. In my opinion, and many others based off the posts I've been reading in the playtest, it does not.
That's not to say my opinion is correct, nor is yours. This may be confirmation bias speaking here, but, from what I've seen, I would say most people do not feel the return rate of spending burn is worth the cost.
You also seem to be focusing on the cost of burn in the most optimal useage of the Burn ability.
Not every player is going to be a geokinetic, or a hydrokinetic, or use Kinetic Form. Not every person is going to want to be forced to play as an elemental in order to be fully functional as a character.
Geokinetics, Hydrokinetics and Kinetic Form have the most optimal return rate on accruing Burn, this is true. But what about everyone else? Aerokinetics and Pyrokinetics both Kinetic Form, but all of their other abilities are rather lackluster when it comes to taking burn damage. Aetherkinetics don't get Kinetic Form, but their Force Ward is pretty decent for the first 2 points of burn, but after that it's really not worth it.
Fact of the matter is, outside a handful of abilities, most of the return rates on burn is not worth the cost. However, this can be fairly easily tweaked in the finished product.
==========================
I like the Burn mechanic, but I think it needs tweaking to make it more worth the cost. If the
No, you demonstrated which ones work in the most optimal fashion. Try stress testing all of the options and you'll see that a great many of the options currently in the playtest are not worth the cost of the burn they inflict.
I agree with Tels.
Artanthos: You have numbers if you take the 'one true path'. You stray off that path even slightly and those numbers don't look so good.
Would a pyro's burn cause them to take a circumstance penalty to stealth checks?
|
|
I agree with Tels.
Artanthos: You have numbers if you take the 'one true path'. You stray off that path even slightly and those numbers don't look so good.
I will point out: reading any optimization guide for any class, you find the exact same thing. There are always a limited number of "best" builds. So far I have posted two builds taking differing paths save for a few choices.
I will point out: reading any optimization guide for any class, you find the exact same thing. There are always a limited number of "best" builds.I agree with Tels.
Artanthos: You have numbers if you take the 'one true path'. You stray off that path even slightly and those numbers don't look so good.
There is a difference. Im not trying to optimize, Im trying to make a viable character. You're lookin at the optimization guide, folowing the 1 pattern, and sayin the class if fine. that's great if you WANT that one build, but I'd like another one and your 'numbers' don't cover those.
You're saying the 'best' build numbers are fine while I'm saying th 'normal' build isn't.
I will point out: reading any optimization guide for any class, you find the exact same thing. There are always a limited number of "best" builds.I agree with Tels.
Artanthos: You have numbers if you take the 'one true path'. You stray off that path even slightly and those numbers don't look so good.
I wish it wasn't the case. However I have seen people claim that testing with a barbarian with a totem other than beast or without superstition doesn't count as testing.
|
i probally missed this but after re reading FTB im unsure how it works, do i A) use feel the burn and take a burn point, or B) can i just use a talent that uses a burn and feel the burn auto activates? lol having a bit of trouble understanding it is all lolYou can use anything to gain "burn points" .
Feel the Burn only requires you to have burn. It also activates as soon as yo utake burn.
So popular ways to gain;
In the morning you activate your defense and use the burn option on that a few times so you have defense and FTB.
secondly is blasting in the first fight you start. FTB activates as soon as you accept burn, so it would apply to the attack you rdoing. (i.e. round one you use extreme range, and metakinesis for a total of 3 burn. that would activate FTB to 3. Assuming you were of the level needed of course)
ahh thank you Zword ^^ that makes FTB so much better compared to having to activate as a seprate thing lol
|
|
I will point out: reading any optimization guide for any class, you find the exact same thing. There are always a limited number of "best" builds.I agree with Tels.
Artanthos: You have numbers if you take the 'one true path'. You stray off that path even slightly and those numbers don't look so good.
I wish it wasn't the case. However I have seen people claim that testing with a barbarian with a totem other than beast or without superstition doesn't count as testing.
I agree on both points. I wish it was not this way, but failing to recognize the reality is usually an exercise in futility.
Not that all my characters are optimized, but arguing a non-optimized build on the forums always generates opposition even if the character is effective at his intended role.
ahh thank you Zword ^^ lol that makes FTB so much better compared to having to activate as a seprate thing loli probally missed this but after re reading FTB im unsure how it works, do i A) use feel the burn and take a burn point, or B) can i just use a talent that uses a burn and feel the burn auto activates? lol having a bit of trouble understanding it is all lolYou can use anything to gain "burn points" .
Feel the Burn only requires you to have burn. It also activates as soon as yo utake burn.
So popular ways to gain;
In the morning you activate your defense and use the burn option on that a few times so you have defense and FTB.
secondly is blasting in the first fight you start. FTB activates as soon as you accept burn, so it would apply to the attack you rdoing. (i.e. round one you use extreme range, and metakinesis for a total of 3 burn. that would activate FTB to 3. Assuming you were of the level needed of course)
Off-topic, reading your posts makes me think you're sitting at your keyboard laughing like a hyena at every letter you type.
It's a bit distracting.
I like the Burn mechanic, but I think it needs tweaking to make it more worth the cost. If the majority of people don't want to use Burn because they feel it's not worth the cost, outside of a single optimal path, then it needs to be fixed.
The class is not designed only for those who can optimize it, it's designed for everyone to make use of it.
*begins slow chant for 1.5 accuracy per burn and 3 damage per burn*
My chant is cumbersome.
I agree on both points. I wish it was not this way, but failing to recognize the reality is usually an exercise in futility.I will point out: reading any optimization guide for any class, you find the exact same thing. There are always a limited number of "best" builds.I agree with Tels.
Artanthos: You have numbers if you take the 'one true path'. You stray off that path even slightly and those numbers don't look so good.
I wish it wasn't the case. However I have seen people claim that testing with a barbarian with a totem other than beast or without superstition doesn't count as testing.
Most classes do not have a binary "Best or suck" design.
Barbarians are indeed optimal with Beast Totem.
They don't automatically suck without it.
Same with most other classes.
|
|
ahh thank you Zword ^^ lol that makes FTB so much better compared to having to activate as a seprate thing loli probally missed this but after re reading FTB im unsure how it works, do i A) use feel the burn and take a burn point, or B) can i just use a talent that uses a burn and feel the burn auto activates? lol having a bit of trouble understanding it is all lolYou can use anything to gain "burn points" .
Feel the Burn only requires you to have burn. It also activates as soon as yo utake burn.
So popular ways to gain;
In the morning you activate your defense and use the burn option on that a few times so you have defense and FTB.
secondly is blasting in the first fight you start. FTB activates as soon as you accept burn, so it would apply to the attack you rdoing. (i.e. round one you use extreme range, and metakinesis for a total of 3 burn. that would activate FTB to 3. Assuming you were of the level needed of course)Off-topic, reading your posts makes me think you're sitting at your keyboard laughing like a hyena at every letter you type.
It's a bit distracting.
who me or Zword? lol
I have posted two for kineticist. Others have posted their own optimized builds that are different than what I came up with.Actually, there are quite a number of classes that have more than one "optimized" build.
LOl I'll discount the melee one as it's not really a kineticist build but fighter/kineticist multiclass build. So we're back to the 'one' way to make a single class kineticist.
Rynjin posted how I feel. There should be a multitude of ways to make a competent character of a class. Not what we have here.
Once you accept the burn, you get those benefits for the rest of the day (or longer I guess if you don't recover burn the next day by not resting).
@Lemmy -- That escalated quickly...
I agree that Feel the Burn doesn't feel like it scales correctly, causing burn to hurt more than it should.
Losing 1hp/hd really can screw up your day, and only getting +1/+1 every 3 levels makes me want to conserve it for when I need it. Only problem is that what I would really like to do hurts me enough that I only want to save it for BBEG, not for helping the rest of the party when they need it.
Yes, you do get infusion specialization x5 to help mitigate burn, and you get Composite Specialization .... at level 15 .... and you get Metakinetic Mastery .... at Level 19.
Most games don't hit level 15, much less level 19, and you're only other recourse for either metakinesis or composite blasts is to accept 1 burn (minimum) per use.
I really like this class and where it's headed, and I do like the burn mechanic, I just feel that the price you pay for it doesn't give you good rewards (esp as a Aether TK, where your composite blast give you touch ... something that fire, water, and air possibly have from level 1, with no burn cost.)
Peter
disclaimer: My feeling can be wrong, but that doesn't mean we can't disagree :D
i.e.
Only burn that actually effects your HP. Burn you reduce via class features and such does not apply.
Right?
Yes, actual burn you accepted.
Once you accept the burn, you get those benefits for the rest of the day (or longer I guess if you don't recover burn the next day by not resting).
So you are stuck with the penalty to stealth until you sleep, damn.
Perhaps it would be more productive for those who are absolutely against burn to make a clear concept that would replace it?
I mean, right now Burn is almost the entire focal balancing point of the class, so basically any major change to it, and especially the removal of it, would be a major rewrite. It'd be almost like making a whole new class. It's at the very limits of what I'd say is legit for an archetype package to adjust. So treat it like that, if you could call "Burn and FtB" mechanic an Archetype, what would you be happy with making the main mechanic that Burn and FtB could replace?
One way they could do it would be something like an archetype that is incapable of taking burn. So for instance, it can't activate the burn-based extras on wild talents and it can't use infusions if they would put it over its specializations, unless they spend a move action. It can't use any metakinesis except empower, and by spending a move (until level 19), and it can't use composites until level 15.
At this point, players who wouldn't use burn have lost nothing if they were never going to use burn anyway, so then if the archetype gains some benefits to counteract those losses (clearly not as powerful as the things that cost burn, since they don't have to accept burn), it's a net win for that playstyle. One example could be getting the FtB bonuses to hit and damage automatically in exchange for losing the option of burn.
Perhaps it would be more productive for those who are absolutely against burn to make a clear concept that would replace it?
I mean, right now Burn is almost the entire focal balancing point of the class, so basically any major change to it, and especially the removal of it, would be a major rewrite. It'd be almost like making a whole new class. It's at the very limits of what I'd say is legit for an archetype package to adjust. So treat it like that, if you could call "Burn and FtB" mechanic an Archetype, what would you be happy with making the main mechanic that Burn and FtB could replace?I mean, I'd be happy to let any old mechanic have this class, if Burn was an Archetype I could pick to use. Why limit it to one way or the other? If there's a way to do this without burn, and still be fair and balanced, let's find it. It'll save a lot of very annoyed fans several weeks of being mad at each other over a game. :)
Here's the thing...outright removal of Burn wouldn't unbalance the class. All of the Burn using mechanics are either minor (80% of the Wild Talents) or necessary to keep up with damage (Metakinetics).
Removing Burn would allow Mark to basically leave the class as-is and have it work pretty great.
Once you accept the burn, you get those benefits for the rest of the day (or longer I guess if you don't recover burn the next day by not resting).So you are stuck with the penalty to stealth until you sleep, damn.
That gets into a can of worms involving fire elementals as light sources, etc. The class is not intended to receive penalties to Stealth, though just like with many other transformative class features of other classes, it may make disguising harder if you don't use a hat of disguise or the like.
Perhaps it would be more productive for those who are absolutely against burn to make a clear concept that would replace it?
I mean, right now Burn is almost the entire focal balancing point of the class, so basically any major change to it, and especially the removal of it, would be a major rewrite. It'd be almost like making a whole new class. It's at the very limits of what I'd say is legit for an archetype package to adjust. So treat it like that, if you could call "Burn and FtB" mechanic an Archetype, what would you be happy with making the main mechanic that Burn and FtB could replace?
I don't hate the idea of burn. I'd be fine with it if I could go through my adventuring day and ONLY use it when I felt taking the damage was worth the damage. I'd prefer that the damage was less ad/or scaled better though.
What I dislike greatly is feel the burn being attached to burn so that your accuracy is dependent on your buning as soon as you wake up and NOT when you want/need to. If I boost my defense or take a form, I want it to be because I want to and NOT because I need to spend burn to get my bonuses.
Archetype: That might be the best option. One to either add or remove feel the burn/burn. I could work wih that. but i would hope that taking it doesn't prevent you from taking all the other Archetype. Maybe one that JUST alters the Burn/Feel the burn.
|
If you aren't getting enough Wild Talents to pick up the ones that are vital to your build, I'd rather give you even more for free instead and leave the feat to be efficient at picking up talents from other elements (it can pick up the best ones available from expanded elements) or ones you missed from the prior tier.
On this note I thought I'd provide some feedback trying to plan an Aerokineticist out to level 12.
If I want to Fly at level 6 when I can first take Wings of Air, I also have to spend a Wild Talent on Air Cushion. Also as an Aerokineticist that isn't focusing on Melee, I feel obliged to take Air's Reach. This means at level 6 I feel practically compelled to have spent 3 of my 4 Wild Talents on specific things, leaving just one other selection. I choose Extended Range in part because it is a requirement for Snaking, even tough I won't be getting that till level 8 because level 7 I feel compelled to take Expanded Element. I feel herded into my selections that leave me wanting something a bit more "special" then just flying around sniping from 240 feet in the air.
A larger number of Wild Talents would be very welcome. For balance, perhaps levels that grant multiple Wild Talents would require that no two selected at the same level to be of the same type (Form, Substance and Other.) This way some of your selections are bound to be limited by burn in how often you use them especially if you focus your Infusion Specialization to just Form or Substance.
That gets into a can of worms involving fire elementals as light sources, etc. The class is not intended to receive penalties to Stealth, though just like with many other transformative class features of other classes, it may make disguising harder if you don't use a hat of disguise or the like.Once you accept the burn, you get those benefits for the rest of the day (or longer I guess if you don't recover burn the next day by not resting).So you are stuck with the penalty to stealth until you sleep, damn.
"My Granny, what bright eyes you have. Bright, glowing, fiery eyes wreathed in actual fire. … Are you feeling well?"
|
|
I'm not sure if people really like it, or just enjoy arguing over the Burn mechanic.
I like the class concept, but think Burn may be too much at high levels. What if Feel The Burn stayed the same, but the nonlethal damage from Burn was halved?
Also, any chance we can get feat and item support for Kineticists teased?
Is it just me, or do people *really* like this class concept?
Nope, not just you. I LOVE the concept and really want it to end up a class I want to play. It's by far the most interesting new class IMO. If feel the burn stays as is though, this will end up being an inerestng dip class and not one I want level up in. That would make me sad. :(
Arutema: This class fits SO make settings (benders, Carrie, kaze no stigma, ect) that it's no wonder it was an instant hit as a concept. I think that's why so many people are invested in it being a class they want to play. It's the class they always wanted but didn't know it. ;)