General Discussion: Kineticist

[Shiroi]

Trogdar wrote:

Shiroi wrote:

Alrighty, I'm going to do a basic compare and contrast of that damage progression table I made the other day with a similar Fighter progression. I'm using the GameMastery guideline that PC's should spend no more than 25% of WBL on any given item. So at lvl 5 he can have a +1 weapon (2000) because these numbers are a quarter of WBL at that point. I'll also be adding a belt in there somewhere, it looks like a single stat +2 belt is 4000, so I'll see that when it becomes 25% of WBL, at LVL 6.

I'll mark the effective + of the weapon, but I'll note the damage as if every other + was an extra D6 ability, like Shock. So first weapon upgrade is EB +1. Second is Flaming, and third is EB+2, and so forth. We'll start with the same assumption of 18 in your primary Attack/DMG stat. I'll start with a 20/x2 weapon, to make crit comparisons easier. I chose a Flail, a Lucern Hammer, and two Saps. These give us D8 One Handed Weapon, D12 Two Handed Weapon, and a pair of D6 Light Two Weapon Fighting Weapons. Yes, I know the Saps deal nonlethal, yes I know the Lucern Hammer is a reach weapon, I didn't have many great options with a 20/x2 crit.

** spoiler omitted **...

So what's the moral of this story is what? That choosing weapons that don't have any synergy with the fighters class features is a bad idea?

The fighter's class features are armor proficiency, resistance to fear effects, +1-4 to hit and damage with any weapon at all and nearly a dozen feats that you can pick to work with any weapon. Do please let me know which weapons work synergistically with that and which ones don't. The moral of the story is two not-super-optimized builds compared side by side, and I'm seeing that the damage for the Kineticist looks pretty fair in this comparison. There's plenty of feats that aren't being included in the fighter, but there's also substance infusions and range and Elemental Body that aren't included in the Kineticist. Both can get more powerful, but this shows where they start. And they start on a surprisingly similar footing.

[Sarvei taeno]

next question---
impale says its all targets in a 30 foot line, does extended range effect that, what about snaking or extreme range? if i took em all would i only be able to impale 1 30 foot straight line, 30 foot snaking line or 480 foot snake line?

[Shiroi]

Sarvei taeno wrote:

next question---

impale says its all targets in a 30 foot line, does extended range effect that, what about snaking or extreme range? if i took em all would i only be able to impale 1 30 foot straight line, 30 foot snaking line or 480 foot snake line?

Impale is a Form Infusion. So are Extended, Extreme, and Snaking. Also Blade and Whip and Fist as well. You can only have 1 Form Infusion on any given attack, so sadly the spike starts at the square in front of you and proceeds exactly and only 30 feet in a straight line from that point. This would be 6 Squares in a straight cardinal line, or 4 squares in a straight diagonal line, or somewhere in between if you go at an odd angle to catch someone in an awkward position. Some DM's will let you do that, some won't.

[Sarvei taeno]

missed that part of it, good did not like the potential i was seein there

[Trogdar]

Shiroi wrote:

Trogdar wrote:

Shiroi wrote:

** spoiler omitted **...

So what's the moral of this story is what? That choosing weapons that don't have any synergy with the fighters class features is a bad idea?

The fighter's class features are armor proficiency, resistance to fear effects, +1-4 to hit and damage with any weapon at all and nearly a dozen feats that you can pick to work with any weapon. Do please let me know which weapons work synergistically with that and which ones don't. The moral of the story is two not-super-optimized builds compared side by side, and I'm seeing that the damage for the Kineticist looks pretty fair in this comparison. There's plenty of feats that aren't being included in the fighter, but there's also substance infusions and range and Elemental Body that aren't included in the Kineticist. Both can get more powerful, but this shows where they...

Critical mastery is a fighter only feat and weapon mastery increases critical multipliers. It really pays to use weapons that have either really good critical thresholds or high multipliers. 20/2 weapons are literally the worst weapons for fighters. Its like taking away martial proficiency.

[Malwing]

Exploring more elements. I'm feeling less like benders and more like the elemental team in Yu Yu Hakusho. Although in both instances kineticist feels less "fighty". I'm obsessed with a strength build so will try a melee geokineticist. I hope the final product will have more options that add strength to damage so I can make more kung fun elementalers. Or just a monk or fighter archetype.

[Rynjin]

Shiroi wrote:

Trogdar wrote:

Shiroi wrote:

Alrighty, I'm going to do a basic compare and contrast of that damage progression table I made the other day with a similar Fighter progression. I'm using the GameMastery guideline that PC's should spend no more than 25% of WBL on any given item. So at lvl 5 he can have a +1 weapon (2000) because these numbers are a quarter of WBL at that point. I'll also be adding a belt in there somewhere, it looks like a single stat +2 belt is 4000, so I'll see that when it becomes 25% of WBL, at LVL 6.

I'll mark the effective + of the weapon, but I'll note the damage as if every other + was an extra D6 ability, like Shock. So first weapon upgrade is EB +1. Second is Flaming, and third is EB+2, and so forth. We'll start with the same assumption of 18 in your primary Attack/DMG stat. I'll start with a 20/x2 weapon, to make crit comparisons easier. I chose a Flail, a Lucern Hammer, and two Saps. These give us D8 One Handed Weapon, D12 Two Handed Weapon, and a pair of D6 Light Two Weapon Fighting Weapons. Yes, I know the Saps deal nonlethal, yes I know the Lucern Hammer is a reach weapon, I didn't have many great options with a 20/x2 crit.

** spoiler omitted **...

So what's the moral of this story is what? That choosing weapons that don't have any synergy with the fighters class features is a bad idea?

The fighter's class features are armor proficiency, resistance to fear effects, +1-4 to hit and damage with any weapon at all and nearly a dozen feats that you can pick to work with any weapon. Do please let me know which weapons work synergistically with that and which ones don't. The moral of the story is two not-super-optimized builds compared side by side, and I'm seeing that the damage for the Kineticist looks pretty fair in this comparison. There's plenty of feats that aren't being included in the fighter, but there's also substance infusions and range and Elemental Body that aren't included in the Kineticist. Both can get more powerful, but this shows where they start. And they start on a surprisingly similar footing.

Surprisingly similar if you purposefully gimp the Fighter with weapon choice, yes. Picking a Greatsword or Earthbreaker, Scimitar or Longsword, or Kukri is not "super-optimized" it's simply picking a good weapon.

This is like comparing an Inquisitor with a Longbow to a Fighter specializing in throwing Starknives and saying "Yeah man, they're surprisingly similar in effectiveness".

But besides that, I'm trying to figure out why you're comparing it to a Fighter.

[levitress]

I also have worries with the Move Earth. Seeing how it requires you to be lvl 6 but can only move the ground 5 ft. Seems like it is a waste to even pick it up for only 5 ft. of movement.

[Shiroi]

The accuracy and damage bonuses, and simplicity of the class. It reads easy with the type of comparison I was looking at, and I've yet to have a party whose fighter was unhappy with the damage he dealt overall, so it feels like if we can match the fighter in DPR most people could be pretty happy with it, especially since this class promises far more out of combat utility when it has some more flesh on it's bones. The crit on the weapons can add a lot, yes. A 15-20/x3 crit will add about 50% DPR. The Kineticist's max of 19-20/x2 caps at 10% DPR. But you also lose dice size for most of those. So generally I'm seeing that I could go to a 19-20/x2 for light and one handed. That adds 5% DPR for no change in dice size. Not exceptionally significant in the grand scheme of things, especially since extra dice don't get multiplied on crits, and a good portion of the damage I have down comes from an extra D6 every few levels.
the Earth breaker goes up .5 points of damage by raising minimum damage by 1. It then gets a 5% increase for being a x3 crit. With a feat, that goes to 19-20/x3 which gives a 20% damage boost, plus the 1 base damage a swing. Not bad. But that 20% applies to the weapon and bonuses, not any extra dice. So now he gets his +9 str, +5 EB, +4 weapon training, and 2d6. That's a net increase of 20% of 25 per hit. So effectively as much as 6.25 DMG per hit before level 20. When he gets level 20, this becomes 19-20/x4, this is 30% net damage increase instead. Roughly 9-10 extra DMG per hit, that's what we get for crits. Assuming this gives you all four hits, you are correct, it makes a significant difference in the damage output. The kineticist is still limited to the 19-20/x2 crit, but that does still bump damage by 10%... of the whole 150 damage. Which just ate half your lead. So I really didn't bother with picking crit weapons because Kineticists have a major cheat in that area : it's all critable damage. If you want to go to the crit versions of flaming and shock, that helps... but they cost 2 bonus each. Now you get fewer abilities or lose EB to get that extra two or three D10. So now your really only keeping up with the kineticist on crits.

[Lemmy]

BTW, Spark of Life should really be buffed and simplified.

Can't it simply work like a Summon Monster SLA that only summons elementals and comes at the appropriate levels, rather than being crappier version that comes at later level...

I doubt summoning a single type of creature will break anything or step on any caster's toes.

Also, every Kineticist should get Kn(Planes) and Kn(Nature) as class skills. Really, this class is a mess in the skill department.

[Excaliburproxy]

May I offer some mechanical suggestions related to improving kineticist accuracy without incurring burn?

Unlike a couple people on here, I do not advocate for an accuracy mechanic that cannot also benefit burned characters in some way. In addition to helping people who are too neurotic to deal with temporary HP damage and expended resources, I am also concerned with overall attack accuracy (and general viability) of the non-touch blasts and the SR problems of touch attacks. Here are a few rules solutions:

Solution 1:
The accuracy portion of FtB should just be an inherent bonus to ranged blast attacks (and/or we can just agree to bite the bullet and make some Gloves of Blastgood that grants an enhancement bonus to attack).

Rather than mostly effecting accuracy, FtB could instead mostly increase damage. For every point of FtB this class has instead increases the kineticist's effective class level by 2 for the purposes of calculating the damage of blasts and penetrating spell resistance. This way most of the big attacks against armor class can further differentiate themselves in terms of damage (their damage effectively increasing by 4.5 per burn vs. 3.5) while the touch attacks can further differentiate themselves in terms of reliability. As it stands, this class mostly spends burn to increase damage so I think it is appropriate that a character who has incurred a lot of burn should enjoy some level of immediately comparable damage increase.

Even with that, I feel like touch attacks would still be the only real game in town and I would perhaps advocate for introducing a mechanic that allows for DR mitigation (like the class can ignore 1 point of DR for every 2 class levels it possesses) other than that one form infusion that allows you to ignore certain very specific damage reductions.

Solution 2:
Here I return to the concept of using your move action to "aim" and boost accuracy.

I think the move action should grant either the kineticists con modifier (perhaps bounded to 1/2 class level or 1+1/3 class level) or the full potential burn bonus to accuracy. However, I would also allow for the mitigation of one point of burn as normal for taking the move action to gather elements (perhaps limiting this to mitigating burn from composite blasts and/or form infusions). This goes towards solving a lot of this class's accuracy concern in my mind. As this is described, FtB and this accuracy buff should not stack (you only take the highest).

However, characters under the effects of FtB should get an additional benefit based on the type of blast. For non-touch blasts, I think the bonus should go towards additional accuracy (with the class receiving the FtB bonus to attacks again). Meanwhile, touch attack blasts receive that bonus to spell penetration.

Solution 3:
Take out the FtB mechanic as it currently exists and give the class small flat accuracy bonuses to ranged attacks and spell penetration (so this part is similar to solution 1).

Let the ranged non-touch blasts be used as normal attacks in a full attack and in conjunction with any combat feats (including rapid shot and the like but perhaps excluding vital strike or giving vital strike special rules). Meanwhile, touch blasts are delivered with a special standard action. Make kinetic blade different so it only works as-is with non-touch blasts and instead grants some other bonuses (like it lets you use feats normally reserved for melee attacks and/or you also add your strength or 1.5 strength to the damage).

High levels of burn instead actually grants greater amounts of mitigation. For every 3 points of burn you suffer, you automatically mitigate one point of burn.

This way, the more you suffer burn the more wizard-y you become. You go down easier but your blasts and powers are doing more and more. This makes getting your constitution to 16, 22, and 28 really attractive respectively.

[Shiroi]

I can't comment on the first two, but number three would result in literally every blast at the end of the day getting free composite and maximize. (1 move action, 3 free burn) and if you have meta and composite specialization this gives you Empowered maximized composite blast for free.

[Rynjin]

Which is as I pointed out earlier, about the same damage (actually slightly less) as an Alchemist full attack (not counting the extra attacks from TWFing or Haste they can get, and not touching on the status effects they can inflict). So not as amazing as it sounds, but would be quite helpful in putting out a consistent amount of damage.

[Shiroi]

Rynjin wrote:

Which is as I pointed out earlier, about the same damage (actually slightly less) as an Alchemist full attack (not counting the extra attacks from TWFing or Haste they can get, and not touching on the status effects they can inflict). So not as amazing as it sounds, but would be quite helpful in putting out a consistent amount of damage.

Forgive me, big thread, but is that before or after going whip and getting that DPR with iteratives? Because that's coming out right in the neighborhood of 200 an attack; up to 600 iterative. Or 100 each in the AOE options, conceivably hitting several targets there. At level 20 of course. At level 10 you've got closer to 150ish maximized composite over two attacks of close to 75 each.

[Rynjin]

That's just a Blast, not the melee component (which I still believe is only about as good as a Vivisectionist in damage under normal circumstances, but with far less utility, though I haven't run the numbers on that).

Hrm. Quick idea to keep Kinetic Blade shenangians under control (relative to ranged Blasts), but still viable: Allow Metakinesis for Empower and Maximize to eventually reach no Burn, but only while Gathering Energy.

Since it evens out to about the same damage, the only real difference is whether you prefer a big Blast or multiple smaller ones (which each get the chance to crit, true, but fluctuate more in damage), and the range with which you can do it (a big advatage with Extended or Extreme range).

[Shiroi]

I dunno, at the level you unlock your first iterative, empowered blast does 3/4 the damage of hitting with both regular hits. At the level you unlock composite and a third attack, composite does about 2/3 the damage of hitting with all three, maybe a hair less. But that's assuming you hit with both/all three of the iteratives, which get progressively less likely. (-25% and -50% respectively)
Without a legitimate target AC it's not possible to directly compare a % of damage to reduce the iteratives by, but it's fair to assume that there will be at least some decrease unless you're using touch for both attacks. I'd be using touch for iteratives and regular for ranged big blasts, given the choice, so those numbers even out pretty decent on damage. So you do pay, if all the attacks hit, a little big of extra damage for your range. But you get range, which is no small helper. You also only deal with DR or resistance once instead of 2 or 3 times. The melee gains a little extra DPR, more so if they manage attack of opportunity, and can inflict substance infusions several times a round... But they get hammered back after that. Better drop them, because you aren't 480 feet away, you're in their face. If you added maximize in there at any point my damage skyrockets on Composites, and easily outstrips the melee option. The question I have isn't "does ranged keep up exactly with iteratives" it's "does the advantage and safety of range equal the cost of fewer status inflicting opportunities and that extra DPR. For me, I feel it does. The question is, how much do you value those extra attacks?

[Shiroi]

PROBLEM. Butterfly Sting. It's a crit feat. The next ally to hit with a melee attack confirms a crit. With empowered maximized composite blast and kinetic blade/whip. It's a whole turns worth of attacks and more that all get a free crit.
I deal approximately 5 times my damage when using those three, and incur at most 5 points of burn. I can get x10 my normal attack damage on the first hit and still get my other two iteratives (and any attacks of opportunity after that) at x5 my normal damage. This feat is meant to give a crit to 1 attack, not the equivalent of 5 in one shot.
better theres a feat I don't remember that lets your allies make an AoO against foes you crit. Now if your friend with the keen scimitar and butterfly sting does this, and happens (25% chance) to crit... I can do 20x or more my normal damage in one turn with this broken interaction.

Since I don't have to decide to burn for those things until someone lands a butterfly sting, this means I can choose exactly the moment to burn off 50 HP at level 10, and deal 10D6 Empowered (35) and Maximized (60) plus stats. 95+stats damage on my first strike, with another on the way that has a 25% chance to second verse, same as the fist. A deal knell for even the hardiest of creatures that isn't immune to crits.

For comparison, a CR 12 Mature Black Dragon has less than 200 HP. So even if the guy who sets me up does no damage himself, I deal half his health in one blow with this. Granted, I want the wizard to cast true strike on me first, since I hit on a 15 or so... Except that touch AC is 10, and I didn't include the bonuses on my damage yet. Which means 95 is a solid number to add just a little damage to and use my touch attacks instead. I can EASILY do 3/4 of this CR+2 boss in one turn, with a 1/4 chance to outright slaughter him.

[Arutema]

Excaliburproxy wrote:

Solution 2:
Here I return to the concept of using your move action to "aim" and boost accuracy.

I would like to take this chance to point out that there is a feat for that, though its +5 BAB requisite is hard on kineticists.

[Scorpioni]

Mark, can you lift a tiny bit of the veil (at the end of the playtest)? When you say limited array of substances for the playtest, do you mean more like 25% of what is planned or more like 80% of what is planned? And what about wild talents as a whole? Just how many design space is allocated to the kineticist? Do we get pages upon pages of never seen before wild talents or is the current list more or less the number we're going to see?

Thanks in advance for your reply :)

[Raphael Valen]

Arutema wrote:

Excaliburproxy wrote:

Solution 2:
Here I return to the concept of using your move action to "aim" and boost accuracy.

I would like to take this chance to point out that there is a feat for that, though its +5 BAB requisite is hard on kineticists.

wow that is a wicked cool feat lol even with a +5 bab needed i'd still take it for the Kineticist and i now also have a new feat for my gunslinger lol

[Zwordsman]

Raphael Valen wrote:

Arutema wrote:

Excaliburproxy wrote:

Solution 2:
Here I return to the concept of using your move action to "aim" and boost accuracy.

I would like to take this chance to point out that there is a feat for that, though its +5 BAB requisite is hard on kineticists.

wow that is a wicked cool feat lol even with a +5 bab needed i'd still take it for the Kineticist and i now also have a new feat for my gunslinger lol

oh that and reckless aim might be fun

[Rynjin]

Raphael Valen wrote:

Arutema wrote:

Excaliburproxy wrote:

Solution 2:
Here I return to the concept of using your move action to "aim" and boost accuracy.

I would like to take this chance to point out that there is a feat for that, though its +5 BAB requisite is hard on kineticists.

wow that is a wicked cool feat lol even with a +5 bab needed i'd still take it for the Kineticist and i now also have a new feat for my gunslinger lol

I thought about that when building mine, but went with some melee Feats instead so I could whack people with a flame sword.

[mplindustries]

Shiroi wrote:

I dunno, at the level you unlock your first iterative, empowered blast does 3/4 the damage of hitting with both regular hits. At the level you unlock composite and a third attack, composite does about 2/3 the damage of hitting with all three, maybe a hair less. But that's assuming you hit with both/all three of the iteratives, which get progressively less likely. (-25% and -50% respectively)

If you're able to full attack, you're way better off Empowering with your move and using Vital Strike in melee. That's the issue, not iteratives which have a relatively high miss chance.

Edit: Wow, I can't believe I actually used the phrase "you're way better off...using Vital Strike" and I wasn't talking about a Druid.

[Wolfism]

Sorry if this has already been answered but when using kinetic blade as a specific weapon, say flavoring it as unarmed strikes, can you use feats and abilities specific to that weapon?

Ex: above mentioned unarmed strikes while wearing brawling armor.

[Tonlim]

@Wolfism

It's purely descriptive and no weapon traits (such as reach, disarm, deadly etc.) applies. The same is true for feats and magical effects, so no brawling armor I'm afraid (unless you're using kinetic fist instead of blade for some bizarre reason I guess).

[Artanthos]

Tonlim wrote:

@Wolfism

It's purely descriptive and no weapon traits (such as reach, disarm, deadly etc.) applies. The same is true for feats and magical effects, so no brawling armor I'm afraid (unless you're using kinetic fist instead of blade for some bizarre reason I guess).

If feats were entirely inapplicable, Weapon Finesse and Power Attack could not be used.

We need clarification on certain feats, for example: do you take weapon focus (shortsword), weapon focus (kinetic blade) or weapon focus(kinetic blast). The same list of choices comes up for improved critical.

[mplindustries]

Artanthos wrote:

Tonlim wrote:

@Wolfism

It's purely descriptive and no weapon traits (such as reach, disarm, deadly etc.) applies. The same is true for feats and magical effects, so no brawling armor I'm afraid (unless you're using kinetic fist instead of blade for some bizarre reason I guess).

If feats were entirely inapplicable, Weapon Finesse and Power Attack could not be used.

We need clarification on certain feats, for example: do you take weapon focus (shortsword), weapon focus (kinetic blade) or weapon focus(kinetic blast). The same list of choices comes up for improved critical.

You're forgetting another lousy possibility: weapon focus (cold blast) or (water blast).

Obviously, nothing official has been stated, but my read on some of Mark's statements is that he's assuming a universal weapon focus (kinetic blast) that covers all forms of it, but probably won't give a conclusive answer otherwise, so that he does not feel locked in to something other devs might change on him later.

[Tonlim]

Artanthos wrote:

Tonlim wrote:

@Wolfism

It's purely descriptive and no weapon traits (such as reach, disarm, deadly etc.) applies. The same is true for feats and magical effects, so no brawling armor I'm afraid (unless you're using kinetic fist instead of blade for some bizarre reason I guess).

If feats were entirely inapplicable, Weapon Finesse and Power Attack could not be used.

We need clarification on certain feats, for example: do you take weapon focus (shortsword), weapon focus (kinetic blade) or weapon focus(kinetic blast). The same list of choices comes up for improved critical.

Fair enough, I was more specifically referring to feats like Dervish Dance, Fencing Grace or Serpent's Lash that requires specific weapons and thus can't be used with Kinetic Blade, as per Wolfism's questions, but I guess I could have been significantly clearer.

[Zwordsman]

Tonlim wrote:

Fair enough, I was more specifically referring to feats like Dervish Dance, Fencing Grace or Serpent's Lash that requires specific weapons and thus can't be used with Kinetic Blade, as per Wolfism's questions, but I guess I could have been significantly clearer.

do any of those provide benefits to this build though? Don't dervish and fencing both just give you dex to damage instead of str?

K-blade/blasts don't ever get str to damage in the first place.
or do the feats provide more than just the curiousry knowledge Ive heard?

[Knightfox]

Hi, so I was wondering, if Kinetic Blasts are considered spells of half the Kineticists level, and the strength of Kinetic Blasts are determined by the Kineticists level, would increasing the Kineticists caster level increase the damage of his Blast, ie with an item or feat that increases caster levels?

[Zwordsman]

Kevin Heavner wrote:

Hi, so I was wondering, if Kinetic Blasts are considered spells of half the Kineticists level, and the strength of Kinetic Blasts are determined by the Kineticists level, would increasing the Kineticists caster level increase the damage of his Blast, ie with an item or feat that increases caster levels?

Techincally with how it is presented it is not tied to kineticist spell casting level, but set to their class level-despite it being adjusted spell level

It might be nice if it worked on adjusted spell level, since then you could afford a one or two dip with the right trait choices.

[Starbuck_II]

Shiroi wrote:

Sarvei taeno wrote:

next question---

impale says its all targets in a 30 foot line, does extended range effect that, what about snaking or extreme range? if i took em all would i only be able to impale 1 30 foot straight line, 30 foot snaking line or 480 foot snake line?

Impale is a Form Infusion. So are Extended, Extreme, and Snaking. Also Blade and Whip and Fist as well. You can only have 1 Form Infusion on any given attack, so sadly the spike starts at the square in front of you and proceeds exactly and only 30 feet in a straight line from that point. This would be 6 Squares in a straight cardinal line, or 4 squares in a straight diagonal line, or somewhere in between if you go at an odd angle to catch someone in an awkward position. Some DM's will let you do that, some won't.

Would it be 60 ft if you had Dual element Air (from expanded) adding Air's reach?

It doubles range.
Would it apply to Sandstorm (earth +Air composite blast)?

[mplindustries]

Starbuck_II wrote:

Shiroi wrote:

Sarvei taeno wrote:

next question---

impale says its all targets in a 30 foot line, does extended range effect that, what about snaking or extreme range? if i took em all would i only be able to impale 1 30 foot straight line, 30 foot snaking line or 480 foot snake line?

Impale is a Form Infusion. So are Extended, Extreme, and Snaking. Also Blade and Whip and Fist as well. You can only have 1 Form Infusion on any given attack, so sadly the spike starts at the square in front of you and proceeds exactly and only 30 feet in a straight line from that point. This would be 6 Squares in a straight cardinal line, or 4 squares in a straight diagonal line, or somewhere in between if you go at an odd angle to catch someone in an awkward position. Some DM's will let you do that, some won't.

Would it be 60 ft if you had Dual element Air (from expanded) adding Air's reach?

It doubles range.
Would it apply to Sandstorm (earth +Air composite blast)?

Air's reach would apply to a sandstorm, but sandstorms can't impale.

Edit: note my complaint a few posts up re the fact that infusions are not locked by element, but rather by blast.

[Shiroi]

Starbuck_II wrote:

Shiroi wrote:

Sarvei taeno wrote:

next question---

impale says its all targets in a 30 foot line, does extended range effect that, what about snaking or extreme range? if i took em all would i only be able to impale 1 30 foot straight line, 30 foot snaking line or 480 foot snake line?

Impale is a Form Infusion. So are Extended, Extreme, and Snaking. Also Blade and Whip and Fist as well. You can only have 1 Form Infusion on any given attack, so sadly the spike starts at the square in front of you and proceeds exactly and only 30 feet in a straight line from that point. This would be 6 Squares in a straight cardinal line, or 4 squares in a straight diagonal line, or somewhere in between if you go at an odd angle to catch someone in an awkward position. Some DM's will let you do that, some won't.

Would it be 60 ft if you had Dual element Air (from expanded) adding Air's reach?

It doubles range.
Would it apply to Sandstorm (earth +Air composite blast)?

It doubles range, not area of effect, but works on any composite that includes air as an element (specifically air, lightning water doesn't count. Air lightning does. Air earth does.) Impale doesn't work with just any blast involving earth though... it works with Earth(simple) metal(earth/earth) and ice(simple). So even though it's not an AOE and therefor technically viable for Air's Reach, the two never overlap in acceptable blasts. So you'll never get a chance to use them on the same attack.

[Shiroi]

mplindustries wrote:

Shiroi wrote:

I dunno, at the level you unlock your first iterative, empowered blast does 3/4 the damage of hitting with both regular hits. At the level you unlock composite and a third attack, composite does about 2/3 the damage of hitting with all three, maybe a hair less. But that's assuming you hit with both/all three of the iteratives, which get progressively less likely. (-25% and -50% respectively)

If you're able to full attack, you're way better off Empowering with your move and using Vital Strike in melee. That's the issue, not iteratives which have a relatively high miss chance.

Edit: Wow, I can't believe I actually used the phrase "you're way better off...using Vital Strike" and I wasn't talking about a Druid.

I didn't see that you could use vit all strike WITH a move action. I always thought it was a full attack. This surprises me because of the mobility it opens up, you'd think this would be more viable for hit and runners. I'll update the kineticist damage chart with the same scenario's vital strike options. Thank the devs we didn't get full BAB: Greater Vital Strike would have sealed the coffin.

[Excaliburproxy]

Shiroi wrote:

I can't comment on the first two, but number three would result in literally every blast at the end of the day getting free composite and maximize. (1 move action, 3 free burn) and if you have meta and composite specialization this gives you Empowered maximized composite blast for free.

If you can get your con to 22 then sure. Also: I forgot to mention that I would want to remove meta specialization. I like the idea a little less right this second though (I was kind of just spitballing).

I still think the idea can work okay if you futz around with a math. Like: you can get mitigation at 3, 7, 12, and 18 burn (which would require 10, 18, 28, and 40 constitution to pull off). Though perhaps there could be a feat that lets you incur one more point of burn (but not mitigate the damage).

[Zwordsman]

Shiroi wrote:

I didn't see that you could use vit all strike WITH a move action. I always thought it was a full attack. This surprises me because of the mobility it opens up, you'd think this would be more viable for hit and runners. I'll update the kineticist damage chart with the same scenario's vital strike options. Thank the devs we didn't get full BAB: Greater Vital Strike would have sealed the coffin.

It works well with kin blast because of the sheer number of dice. but in most cases it doesn't work as well as it sounds, since most melee guy's damages comes from static modifiers not rolled dice.

certain weapons it works great with though, like some xbows.

Which way are you using vital strike?
in another thread there was a disagreement on how it works.

some say it only doubles the dice, other says it doubles the dice and the +1.

I'm in the dice+1 camp since vital strike is meant to double weapon damage, and that is specifically named part of the weapon damage..

[mplindustries]

Shiroi wrote:

I didn't see that you could use vit all strike WITH a move action. I always thought it was a full attack. This surprises me because of the mobility it opens up, you'd think this would be more viable for hit and runners. I'll update the kineticist damage chart with the same scenario's vital strike options. Thank the devs we didn't get full BAB: Greater Vital Strike would have sealed the coffin.

It doesn't see more use in mobility builds because it doesn't work with spring attack.

Oh, and it also sucks anyway, because it only affects weapon damage dice, the very smallest part of any competent warrior's damage. If your weapon damage average exceeds your static mods and precision damage, one of three things has happened:

1) you are polymorphed into an animal (or maybe using a monk's unarmed strike) with a single big attack and then played some size abusing games

2) you have a lousy pointbuy

3) you are a low level 3/4 bab character that doesn't have deadly aim/power attack yet.

Kineticists are probably the only class that can benefit from vital strike straight out of the box with no shenanigans.

Edit: Also, mobility builds not based on spells suck for the most part anyway, since combat damage is largely a function of making as many attacks as possible. Voluntarily making only one each round tanks your damage.

[Dexion1619]

I am really hoping we get a clear cut example of a Kineticist using Vital Strike in the book. While I agree that it should work, and RAW (currently) is does, I can see a lot of people and DM's saying it works like an Alchemists bomb (only the initial d6 is the "base" damage).

Just stopping any RAI/RAW arguments ahead of time would be great.

Edit: Personally, the fact that we have a 3000 post playtest thread, with Vital Strike playing a role in builds from the first page, and not once have I seen Mark say "Hey Guys, just so you know, Vital Strike wont/might not work." strongly indicates it does lol.

[Zwordsman]

Dexion1619 wrote:

I am really hoping we get a clear cut example of a Kineticist using Vital Strike in the book. While I agree that it should work, and RAW (currently) is does, I can see a lot of people and DM's saying it works like an Alchemists bomb (only the initial d6 is the "base" damage).

Just stopping any RAI/RAW arguments ahead of time would be great.

Edit: Personally, the fact that we have a 3000 post playtest thread, with Vital Strike playing a role in builds from the first page, and not once have I seen Mark say "Hey Guys, just so you know, Vital Strike wont/might not work." strongly indicates it does lol.

Depending on how they increase the damage, I would really like a vital strike like option. Forboth K0blast and K-blades. Unless the damage bump is enough to not need it.

Alchemist bombs specifically mention it works like that, this currently does not. So it's got that going for it for the moment. Happily that requirement should show for that situation. Though a GM can of course house rule otherwise as is their perogative. Though It doesn't seem to be any damage issue with it.. If I"m reading people's math right.

So I think in the end it'll either be allowed specifically, or they'll bump damage enough that it won't need it. Or possibly keep the restriction of melee for it, since that comes with more AOO and dangers.
ThoughI still intend to mostly play a sniper type

[Shiroi]

Yep. Vital Strike is nasty with this. Now combine that with the Butterfly Sting feat I mentioned earlier, and I can do really dumb amounts of damage. I wound up catching too many mistakes I was making while trying to go back over my old math, reverse engineer it, and then buff back up to the vital strike damage, so I stopped. Not having a good math day. But looking at where I was on that, doing about a 50% or better increase in damage output, and even more when Composite became available, it's clear that Vital Strike takes the cake in this class. With an Empowered, Maximized Composite Blast that I can set up a guaranteed crit on, I'm looking at doing absolutely stupid amounts of damage. Well beyond what the current intended effect of burn seems to be. At level 10 that's 10D6 Maximized plus Empowered adds another 5d6 regular, Vital Strike takes those and doubles them all. So 20D6 Maximized and 10D6 regular. That's 155 in dice right there. Add in your stats, whether the +1's empower or not, and you have a significant chance of slaughtering most creatures with no way for them to retaliate. For 5 con worth of HP I just trivialized the average boss monster. It takes a team of three, a Crit Range Specialist with Butterfly Sting, a Caster with True Strike, and the Kineticist. Make this work, and it's well above the scope of most straight damage spells. An Empowered, Maximized Delayed Blast Fireball isn't even possible to my knowledge... (7th LvL Spell and Empowered is a +2 Spell LvL, Maximize is +3, so that's a 12th LvL spell) And still barely would keep up with this damage from a level 10 team.

[kestral287]

Shiroi wrote:

PROBLEM. Butterfly Sting. It's a crit feat. The next ally to hit with a melee attack confirms a crit. With empowered maximized composite blast and kinetic blade/whip. It's a whole turns worth of attacks and more that all get a free crit.

I deal approximately 5 times my damage when using those three, and incur at most 5 points of burn. I can get x10 my normal attack damage on the first hit and still get my other two iteratives (and any attacks of opportunity after that) at x5 my normal damage. This feat is meant to give a crit to 1 attack, not the equivalent of 5 in one shot.
better theres a feat I don't remember that lets your allies make an AoO against foes you crit. Now if your friend with the keen scimitar and butterfly sting does this, and happens (25% chance) to crit... I can do 20x or more my normal damage in one turn with this broken interaction.

Since I don't have to decide to burn for those things until someone lands a butterfly sting, this means I can choose exactly the moment to burn off 50 HP at level 10, and deal 10D6 Empowered (35) and Maximized (60) plus stats. 95+stats damage on my first strike, with another on the way that has a 25% chance to second verse, same as the fist. A deal knell for even the hardiest of creatures that isn't immune to crits.

For comparison, a CR 12 Mature Black Dragon has less than 200 HP. So even if the guy who sets me up does no damage himself, I deal half his health in one blow with this. Granted, I want the wizard to cast true strike on me first, since I hit on a 15 or so... Except that touch AC is 10, and I didn't include the bonuses on my damage yet. Which means 95 is a solid number to add just a little damage to and use my touch attacks instead. I can EASILY do 3/4 of this CR+2 boss in one turn, with a 1/4 chance to outright slaughter him.

So at level ten...

You can deal 5D6+5+Con (let's call that 6)+3 (assuming you maxed Feel the Burn, so you're down 30 HP already)). Average damage = 31.5 Composite blast is 10D6+19.

Maximize+Empower that up to 79+(5D6+9)= 105.5 damage on average. You can do this once per day, even if you don't take Burn at the start of the day. It's going to eat something like a third of your total hit points.

If, then, your ally pulls off the at-best 30% chance to crit the dragon, and then if your other allies stand back and don't attack it in melee (as doing so would trigger Sting), and then you attack it, hitting an AC of 31 with that blast (based on your earlier numbers, you're at +16 to blast, so you need a 15 on the die. 30% hit rate is miserable). All that happens, and you kill one dragon.

Frankly?

More power to you.

Using Butterfly Sting in conjunction with a Fighter with a Scythe or similar weapon is going to be more or less as effective, and there are very few characters who are actually good with that feat in the first place.

Dexion1619 wrote:

I am really hoping we get a clear cut example of a Kineticist using Vital Strike in the book. While I agree that it should work, and RAW (currently) is does, I can see a lot of people and DM's saying it works like an Alchemists bomb (only the initial d6 is the "base" damage).

Just stopping any RAI/RAW arguments ahead of time would be great.

Edit: Personally, the fact that we have a 3000 post playtest thread, with Vital Strike playing a role in builds from the first page, and not once have I seen Mark say "Hey Guys, just so you know, Vital Strike wont/might not work." strongly indicates it does lol.

Check the second page. Mark openly stated that he's unsure if the final version will be able to use Vital Strike or not.

[Artanthos]

Shiroi wrote:

Yep. Vital Strike is nasty with this. Now combine that with the Butterfly Sting feat I mentioned earlier, and I can do really dumb amounts of damage.

More than a fighter or barbarian with a scythe?

That is what usually gets used in a dedicated Butterfly Sting pair.

[Artanthos]

kestral287 wrote:

So at level ten...

You can deal 5D6+5+Con (let's call that 6)+3 (assuming you maxed Feel the Burn, so you're down 30 HP already)). Average damage = 31.5 Composite blast is 10D6+19.

Maximize+Empower that up to 79+(5D6+9)= 105.5 damage on average. You can do this once per day, even if you don't take Burn at the start of the day. It's going to eat something like a third of your total hit points.

If, then, your ally pulls off the at-best 30% chance to crit the dragon, and then if your other allies stand back and don't attack it in melee (as doing so would trigger Sting), and then you attack it, hitting an AC of 31 with that blast (based on your earlier numbers, you're at +16 to blast, so you need a 15 on the die. 30% hit rate is miserable). All that happens, and you kill one dragon.

Frankly?

More power to you.

1. Assume the person with Butterfly Sting is dual wielding Kukri and has the Improved Critical feat.

2. At 10th level it is safe to assume the kineticist has a +21 to hit and an option to target touch AC.

Butterfly Sting + Vital Strike is viable, but less efficient than a dedicated melee build with a scythe.

[Shiroi]

With +5 from EB, +4 from Fighter Weapon Training, +10 from a 30 Str, Greater Vital Strike for 8D4, and let's say an anonymous +10 from feats and such... The highest I can possibly picture Scythe pulling off in one crit is 136. That's with god aweful Str and feats built for just this purpose. This class does all it's normal stuff, and has that as an option. And Butterfly Sting is one single feat, that can be taken in addition to a build that normally focuses on crits anyways. I suppose it does get close enough that the extra damage the Kineticist takes is no longer worth it... Until the Kineticist gets to high enough level to mitigate the burn. 5 Burn is the max, without your move action. 4 for move action, 3 at 15th for Composite Mastery, and 2 when you hit 19th for Meta Mastery. And this is adding a lot of bonus damage to the fighter, I don't know what build you'd use to get to 30 Str and +10 damage from feats alone.
Point being, it can trade a few HP to vastly improve it's damage before Crit, which I don't think was designed with Butterfly Sting in mind. Perhaps the Scythe wasn't either, but at least you have to build around that design, as a dedicated "I do scythe crits" player. The kineticist can be whatever kind of party member they are normally, and do this on the side for teh lulz.

[Trogdar]

Can't the two handed fighter archetype do this without help? They get double damage with two handed weapons and can auto crit on a standard action attack. Five times twenty is one hundred on its own.

[Zwordsman]

it's probably been discussed but

can a k-blade used in a full attack action, be used as a one handed or light weapon (we know it classifies as such at least)

So in theory you could have a kin who uses two weapon fighting, one with a kukri and the other their kblast, for butterfly sting

Though frankly thats soo much work and un reliability that it's stupid

[mplindustries]

Shiroi wrote:

With +5 from EB, +4 from Fighter Weapon Training, +10 from a 30 Str, Greater Vital Strike for 8D4, and let's say an anonymous +10 from feats and such... The highest I can possibly picture Scythe pulling off in one crit is 136.

What level are you talking about here? With that stuff, I'm thinking it's level 20.

His normal, power attacking attack line (without ANY feats but power attack) is 2d4+42 (10 str becomes 15 damage with a two-hander, and Power Attack adds +18 damage at 20th). So, uh, a crit would be 8d4 (average 20) + 168.

No, wait, a 20th level fighter raises the multiplier to x5, o 10d4 (25) + 210 damage.

Vital Strike is barely worth mentioning, since it doesn't increase on a crit.

So, a Fighter with a +5 Scythe, weapon training in heavy blades (very likely anyway) and Power Attack does way more damage on his crits than even a kineticist dedicated to taking advantage of this. The Fighter doesn't even need to be especially dedicated to this style. He has enough cash and feats that he could have Quickdraw and a spare +5 Scythe just lying around for this purpose while he really uses a Greatsword or some other Heavy Blade (even without the 20th level dedicated pick, an average of 188 is nothing to sneeze at). This is with practically zero investment. A fighter really built to take advantage of these Scythe crits is terrifying to behold.

Plus, nobody takes Butterfly Sting unless they are specifically building for a pair like this. Most characters focused on critting, you know, like to crit themselves. In other words, while it's a tiny investment to be "ok" at taking crits via Butterfly Sting, it's a huge investment on the part of the crit guy for not a ton of pay-off compared to what he could get paired with a scythe user that power attacks.

[Starbuck_II]

So the uses for Move action:
Empower, Burn reduction, Bullseye Shot feat (+4 hit)

When you don't want more burn Bullseye helps. But Empower is likely worth the damage.

[kestral287]

Mlp ran the numbers and Bullseye Shot is relatively likely to be a trap when compared to 0-Burn Empowered. Awesome if you're willing to take the Burn though, and I'm debating it on some builds.

But it is worth noting that one of the other advantages of the move action is to simply... move. The Kineticist is uniquely suited to work as a mobile fighter. Vital Strike allows a mix of mobility (move and Kinetic Blade/Whip) and stand-and-deliver (Empower and Kinetic Blade/Whip), while at range the damage output is dramatically lessened but the effect is virtually the same. In open terrain (or at least open skies, for those with flight access), you could likely take down a fair few ranged combatants just by kiting them with Extreme Range.

Of course, your allies might not have that advantage. But that is a beautiful thought for an antagonist; forcing the PCs to deal with an opponent who can engage them (possibly from above) at ranges that make even Longbows sweat the increments could provide an amusing challenge. Or an excuse for the Wizard to cast teleport, so there are trade-offs.