General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

3,051 to 3,100 of 4,774 << first < prev | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | next > last >>
Scarab Sages

kestral287 wrote:
I'm not sure about the AC part. Your armor selection is... limited, since you're locked into Lights and buffing Dex so hard that honestly even Celestial Armor might get constricting (though you're probably good with it for PFS play, pushing past 12 not so much). Hydrokineticist probably pulls ahead because Shroud of Water for a shield, but I'm not really convinced that the others will do the same in the AC department.

Shroud of Water gets around the AC limitation and frees up additional WBL.

Scarab Sages

AndIMustMask wrote:
a small note i find re-reading the playtest doc: that burn cant be healed By Any Means beyond bedrest, my pocket-cleric note actually cant happen. you're stuck with permanent (for the day) reduced HP anytime burn comes up. i mean said cleric can prop you up if you get pushed under, but there's nothing stopping the enemy from just knocking you back down again with your nice low HP, and that eats into your and your cleric's actions (which could be allocated elswhere)

If you've invested in CON, your hit points are no lower than the average for a character of your level, after accepting burn.

Lemmy wrote:
And the bonus from FtB should really just be granted to the class without requiring Burn... Then Burn would be a bonus rather than a necessity that unfairly taxes the character.

If the kineticist was not already generating substantial bonuses beyond the + to-hit/damage of FtB I would agree.

As stands, FtB is the least of the bonuses available.


Artanthos wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
a small note i find re-reading the playtest doc: that burn cant be healed By Any Means beyond bedrest, my pocket-cleric note actually cant happen. you're stuck with permanent (for the day) reduced HP anytime burn comes up. i mean said cleric can prop you up if you get pushed under, but there's nothing stopping the enemy from just knocking you back down again with your nice low HP, and that eats into your and your cleric's actions (which could be allocated elswhere)

If you've invested in CON, your hit points are no lower than the average for a character of your level, after accepting burn.

Lemmy wrote:
And the bonus from FtB should really just be granted to the class without requiring Burn... Then Burn would be a bonus rather than a necessity that unfairly taxes the character.

If the kineticist was not already generating substantial bonuses beyond the + to-hit/damage of FtB I would agree.

As stands, FtB is the least of the bonuses available.

Which is still silly. My Wizard doesn't have as many skill points as my Fighter. My Dex based whatever doesn't have the same touch AC as my non Dex based whatever. My Cleric doesn't have the same Will save as my Alchemist.

Why does my Kineticist have the same HP as my Rogue?

Scarab Sages

Rynjin wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
a small note i find re-reading the playtest doc: that burn cant be healed By Any Means beyond bedrest, my pocket-cleric note actually cant happen. you're stuck with permanent (for the day) reduced HP anytime burn comes up. i mean said cleric can prop you up if you get pushed under, but there's nothing stopping the enemy from just knocking you back down again with your nice low HP, and that eats into your and your cleric's actions (which could be allocated elswhere)

If you've invested in CON, your hit points are no lower than the average for a character of your level, after accepting burn.

Lemmy wrote:
And the bonus from FtB should really just be granted to the class without requiring Burn... Then Burn would be a bonus rather than a necessity that unfairly taxes the character.

If the kineticist was not already generating substantial bonuses beyond the + to-hit/damage of FtB I would agree.

As stands, FtB is the least of the bonuses available.

Which is still silly. My Wizard doesn't have as many skill points as my Fighter. My Dex based whatever doesn't have the same touch AC as my non Dex based whatever. My Cleric doesn't have the same Will save as my Alchemist.

Why does my Kineticist have the same HP as my Rogue?

Is your Rogue applying CON to: +to-hit, +damage, or +AC


No.

But neither is my Kineticist for 2/3 of those.

And that's still a terrible false equivalency.

Again, just because my Monk adds Wis to AC should not mean he loses the other benefits of Wisdom as a stat. A Monk with 22 Wis does not have the same Perception bonus and Will save as a Wizard with 16.

Many classes (all but two, if you count all spellcasters) have unique ways to use a specific stat.

None of them give up the other benefits of said stat for it.

Because that would make no sense.

Wizards don't lose skill points from casting spells. Monks don't get a choice to activate their Monk AC but take a Will penalty for the rest of the day. Inquisitors don't get a penalty to Perception because they add their Wis to Initiative.

Because classes are supposed to have class abilities IN ADDITION TO the effects of their stats. Not either/or.

Burn makes no sense either mechanically (the bonuses are not good enough to warrant the cost, even when they are good) or thematically (you're in a universe where magic can restore a guy from being F@+%ING DISINTEGRATED, but it can't heal a bit of nonlethal from a guy who drew some energy from another plane to do the same magic s~+* every other spellcaster does for the most part).

It's a bad mechanic.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think some people are really hung up on Hit Points--or am I just not concerned about them enough? To me, they are the least important aspect of survivability. In my experience, AC, Saves, Miss Chance, DR, SR, Energy Resistance, immunity to conditions, line of effect blocking, action economy advantage, hell, even how much dpr you can lay out are all much more important in determining whether you win or lose than your Hit Points.

I have never seen a character die because they didn't have more HP (I mean, literally, yes, that's how you die, but I mean that having more HP wouldn't solve the real problem). I have seen people die because their AC was too low, and more HP would just have maybe wasted one more of the monster's attacks. I have seen people die because they got CCed by an effect they couldn't save against. I have seen them die because they couldn't kill a glass cannon enemy fast enough. I have seen them die because their healer (not me, in this case) could not keep up with incoming damage, and better mitigation would have kept the healing efficient and useful.

I have never seen a Pathfinder character in actual play that wasn't a Barbarian with more than 14 Con. HP just so rarely impacts your victory because having fewer HP that are harder to lose in the first place makes healing more efficient. Trust me, as a big fan of playing uberhealers and buffers, I greatly appreciate people with less hp and more defense than the barbarians with twice as many hp as the next guy, but who wrote off their AC as too low to bother improving (I know Barbarians can get better AC than most with rage powers, it's just not something I have personally seen done).

So, to me, I don't really care about the HP aspec of Con. I would much rather trade HP away for effects that prevent HP loss than just hoard it.


I would much rather have my stats, and my class abilities, simultaneously. Like every other class in the game has.

I like HP. HP is a nice buffer between Fun and Dead. HP saves lives.

A character with a high Constitution, logically, has a higher HP than someone witha lower Constitution.

Not so with the Kineticist, because...reasons.

Maybe HP is a less important defense. But having it is better than not having it, and investing in making HP higher and yet still not getting the benefit from it infuriates me (in a colloquial sense, I'm not sitting here literally fuming and plotting Mark's demise over it).

I don't like putting points in something and not getting out what I put in.

Especially when the implication is that it's some sort of balancing factor for the Con being so high to begin with.

If that's the case, why did you pick Con as the main stat for your class, ya goober?

I would be perfectly fine if the Kineticist used Wis or something and I had 14 Con and the expected amount of HP.

I am not fine using Con, being expected to use Con, and having 20+ Con, but still only getting out what the 14 Con + different stat alternative would be.

I simply do not like it, Sam I am. I do not like it on a boat, I do not like it in a tote. I do not want it in this class, so please give this mechanic a pass.

Scarab Sages

Rynjin wrote:

No.

But neither is my Kineticist for 2/3 of those.

All day long, every day. Kinetic Form II (air), by itself, is giving +2 to-hit and +5 AC and 60' fly for 2 burn. This is in addition to the +2 to-hit/damage from FtB. Kinetic Form II (water) costs the kinticist 0 HP, still gives 5 AC, give FtB bonuses, and increases base CON mods to Fort and damage by +2.

Flesh of Stone, Shroud of Water & Force Ward provide their own benefits, though the cost/benefit ratio is not as strongly in the kineticist's favor.

Quote:
And that's still a terrible false equivalency.

It is the way the class currently works. The kineticist has the option to use CON for roles normally reserved for STR and DEX.

Quote:

Again, just because my Monk adds Wis to AC should not mean he loses the other benefits of Wisdom as a stat. A Monk with 22 Wis does not have the same Perception bonus and Will save as a Wizard with 16.

Many classes (all but two, if you count all spellcasters) have unique ways to use a specific stat.

None of them give up the other benefits of said stat for it.

Because that would make no sense.

Wizards don't lose skill points from casting spells. Monks don't get a choice to activate their Monk AC but take a Will penalty for the rest of the day. Inquisitors don't get a penalty to Perception because they add their Wis to Initiative.

Because classes are supposed to have class abilities IN ADDITION TO the effects of their stats. Not either/or.

With the kineticist, everything is optional. You add resource management as a player skill as you decide how much burn you want to generate and how you want to generate it.

Quote:

Burn makes no sense either mechanically (the bonuses are not good enough to warrant the cost, even when they are good) or thematically (you're in a universe where magic can restore a guy from being F++!ING DISINTEGRATED, but it can't heal a bit of nonlethal from a guy who drew some energy from another plane to do the same magic s#*% every other spellcaster does for the most part).

It's a bad mechanic.

I feel Burn makes perfect sense and enjoy the mechanic. I do not want to see it changed.

Lantern Lodge

A thought about the gathering energy option. What if, instead of capping it at one burn point mitigated, you cap it to the number of burn points that have already been taken? If you haven't used a burn point during the day, you can't gather energy at all. If you've used 5 burn points, you can gather energy to mitigate up to 5 burn from your blast wild talents?

That way, you have another reward for using burn, and using burn doesn't entirely prevent you from using class features. It still may hose your action economy, and you still have HP loss from the burn in the first place, but you can use your composite blast more times a day.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy said wrote:

1- it's not fun not being able to use your class features. Similarly, it's not fun trying to avoid using your class features at all costs. Every other class feature in the game gets more uses as the levels go up, taxing the character less and less, encouraging the player to use if more often. Burn does the inverse. It costs more and more for the same benefit.

Not that it matters, really... I doubt it'll be changed. Mark never commented on anything about Burn (or maybe I missed it), so I take it he likes the mechanic.

At best, we get an archetype that uses a ki pool or something, but since it...

Not to argue with your opinion, but you state it as a fact. It isn't fun for you. It is for me. I'd love to play a character that really *doesn't* want to have to do this. If wizards had risk involved in using a spell I'd like them better. If barbarians being fatigued after a rage was more likely to impact combat, for instance limiting the number of rounds you could rage in a row so that you might be forced out of it in longer combats, I would appreciate that mechanic more. If monks who expended all of their ki became fundamentally weaker for having exhausted themselves, I'd be happier. Because power should come at a cost. Because my ideal fantasy character can't fight all day full tilt without consequences. This is fun to me. The more I'm discouraged from using the burn mechanic, the more realistic and immersive it feels to me. The more I enjoy it and have a good time using it. I understand exactly why you don't enjoy it, but please don't assume that nobody will like this or that it's mechanically bad. A bit of fine tuning the cost benefit ratio wouldn't be harmful to the class, but flatly removing burn or trivializing the cost would do to me EXACTLY what leaving it as it is would do to you. It would make the class less enjoyable.

Fortunately for us both, Mark has commented on burn. He made a very smooth archetype theory that removed burn from the equation. FtB was automatic, you couldn't use burn or enhance abilities with burn, you keep your high HP, and you'd get a few extra perks since you couldn't buff defense or use EB II or IV. So if things go well on that front, and I suspect they're prioritizing it very highly due to the polarization on this issue, we should both have acceptable answers soon enough.

And he isn't flatly outlawing abilities with burn cost in that build : you just have to be able to specialize and/or use the move action to gather energy for them. If you reduce burn to 0, you can use the ability. Since most kineticists won't be using an ability if they can't do that with the exception of defenses (which you trade for keeping your HP in this archetype) and nova attacks (which he may give you some other way to do in the "extra stuff for this archetype" category) this doesn't lock you out of most class abilities. A handfull yes, like the 3 and 4 cost metas, and slicks extra feature, and kinetic form II and IV, but those can have adjustments. Especially since you keep all that HP and get FtB activated for free.


mplindustries wrote:
Mikael Sebag wrote:

So, with this thread now exceeding 3,000 posts (our collective desire to see this class do well is evident), I have two important questions:

1) Is there a consensus yet about what the problem areas of the kineticist are?

2) Are we any closer to providing the designer(s) with solutions for the class's problematic elements? If so, what have we (the Paizo community) come up with?

Consensus problems:

1) Lack of skill points

2) Unquestionably needs more damage

3) More utility powers/more access to utility powers

4) Substance Infusions mostly blow

Solutions: More skill points, more damage, more/better utility powers, splitting utility and blast infusions into separate pools and providing 10 choices from each over 20 levels instead of just 10 total between them, more/better Substance infusions

Edit: forgot some minor ones:

5) We want the fantastic bonuses from kinetic form, but nobody really wants to walk around all day as an amorphous blob of element. Solution: give the bonuses of kinetic form without actually polymorphing the kineticist

6) Fire's defense is terrible and air is "just ok." Solution: make them better, especially by giving more return for Burn.

Problems about half the community seems to have while the other half does not:

1) Burn is too punitive

2) Accuracy is too low

Solutions: I have no clue because I don't have a problem with these things.

Great list, pretty much sums it all. There is also the problem with Damage reduction and aether defense.


My observations thus far;
So having only played at levels 1-3 (still grinding along in PFS) may influence this but I haven't seen a terrible lack in power. Though to be fair we all tend to intentionally avoid the super optimized builds because at least for us there isn't much fun in using that level of power.

My electrokineticist has been doing fine, though a bit more damage would be nice, preferably as a straight number instead of more dice since he only really seems to suffer when the damage dice go south.

Accuracy wise he seems good, though I haven't rolled much in the 7-13 range on the d20 so that may be an illusion. As for Burn, I don't get the problem people have had with it, it is resource management in a similar vein to the sorcerer or oracle, when you start running low it may be time to rest. FtB is there to help you stay even as you use Burn to power up defenses and blasts, again low level but I haven't found it "mandatory" to have it active all the time.

Having items for the class would be helpful in testing him though. As it stands my utility is boosted from buying random kits and tools to either use myself or hand to whoever has the best chance of making it already. This is likely to be the first time in 5 PFS characters I'll buy a bag of holding.


mplindustries wrote:
Lavawight wrote:

Initially, I was concerned about both the accuracy and the cost of burn, but mpl and a few others have convinced me that it's much less severe than it seems. However, I don't want Kineticists to require Toughness and FCB dedication (especially if there are good racials) just to avoid the fragility that many posters are worried about.

Specifically, I guess, I feel like taking Toughness and FCB bonuses to hp should result in an especially tough character of whatever class, and would hate to see Kineticists with those as "normal" and those without as squishy. I'm not sure exactly how that would need to be balanced, but it is a concern of mine so far.
You know what? I agree with this. Maybe Toughness and/Precise Shot can be a bonus feat at an early level? Or Burn could equal half your level instead of your full level?

half-level (min 1, rounded up) burn damage would certainly make things much more manageable, especially outside the silly '15 minute adventuring day' thing that people seem to think is a thing for some reason.

alternatively buffing the FtB bonus or some other aspect of the mechanic to be actually helpful, so you actually have incentive to use burn and balance it vs your health expenditure (as i said earlier: breaking even with people not named rogue/monk is not a bonus, it is a requirement to function).


mplindustries wrote:
Mikael Sebag wrote:

So, with this thread now exceeding 3,000 posts (our collective desire to see this class do well is evident), I have two important questions:

1) Is there a consensus yet about what the problem areas of the kineticist are?

2) Are we any closer to providing the designer(s) with solutions for the class's problematic elements? If so, what have we (the Paizo community) come up with?

Consensus problems:

1) Lack of skill points

2) Unquestionably needs more damage

3) More utility powers/more access to utility powers

4) Substance Infusions mostly blow

Solutions: More skill points, more damage, more/better utility powers, splitting utility and blast infusions into separate pools and providing 10 choices from each over 20 levels instead of just 10 total between them, more/better Substance infusions

Edit: forgot some minor ones:

5) We want the fantastic bonuses from kinetic form, but nobody really wants to walk around all day as an amorphous blob of element. Solution: give the bonuses of kinetic form without actually polymorphing the kineticist

6) Fire's defense is terrible and air is "just ok." Solution: make them better, especially by giving more return for Burn.

Problems about half the community seems to have while the other half does not:

1) Burn is too punitive

2) Accuracy is too low

Solutions: I have no clue because I don't have a problem with these things.

What about Vital Strike with kinetic blade and conductive weapon interaction?

Also, other minor points:

1) the wild talents' spell level equivalency causing confusion when calculating the DC of an infused kinetic blast. This also leads to low DCs for higher level play (example: burning infusion). Suggested: set the DC for all 10 +1/2 kineticist level + constituion modifier

2) level requirement for Extra Wild Talent feat (which is still unofficial) and Expanded Element, reducing the possibility to "multiclass" between elements and adding extra confusion when choosing wild talents.

3) aether composites...


Heladriell wrote:
Great list, pretty much sums it all. There is also the problem with Damage reduction and aether defense.

While I understand the issue people have with DR, I think the answer lies in just having more damage to punch through it. I think DR is intended as a deliberate weakness. More damage should help.

As for Aether's defense, I personally think it's the second best defense option after Water. I see no problem at all, except possibly the regen rate.

Early on, DR is better. Giving up 2 effective hp for 2 DR is an even trade after just two hits. But trading 6 HP for 1 DR breaks even only after 6 hits. Unless you're trying to be tanky, like an earthen whip aoo build or something, you should not be getting hit that much.

Meanwhile, Aether's defense grow proportionally, so it will always and forever break even at just two hits (as long as they are several minutes apart). On top of that, it protects you from nondamaging attacks until they break your forcefield (enervation, for example, is a ranged touch attack. If they land it on you, it fails to puncture your force ward as it deals zero damage, and so counts as a miss and you are not enervated). That's also useful, though less so for any number of rider effects on regular hits like grab and stuff.

I could see maybe increasing the regen rate somewhat, but otherwise, it's awesome. I am building a water bender and I am seriously considering aether as my 7th element because of force ward. If it weren't for the lack of a real nova composite option, I would definitely do so.


I quite love the Aether defense... once I finally understood it properly.
It's basicaly "if you were hit, prentend you weren't" effect.

I do wish it would regen at a FTB or Burn amount rate min 1 a min.

I think the DR issue is with people not liking the relative look of it. it looks like it doesn't do much sorta thing..

I'm personally torn between more AC with water defense or DR with earth to combo with my aether guy. Not like there is a composite blast
Water is currently wining by virtue of having a touch attack. though I think I like the DR More since it's applicable to things like traps and such.
so the dr +the fake hp can mean iget away with not being poisoned etc

though i' ma bit confused on how aether defense handles things that touch you for no damage. if it blocks them or not?

Scarab Sages

mplindustries wrote:
On top of that, it protects you from nondamaging attacks until they break your forcefield (enervation, for example, is a ranged touch attack. If they land it on you, it fails to puncture your force ward as it deals zero damage, and so counts as a miss and you are not enervated).

Mark clarified this was not intended a couple thousand posts back when I brought the issue up.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Artanthos wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
On top of that, it protects you from nondamaging attacks until they break your forcefield (enervation, for example, is a ranged touch attack. If they land it on you, it fails to puncture your force ward as it deals zero damage, and so counts as a miss and you are not enervated).
Mark clarified this was not intended a couple thousand posts back when I brought the issue up.

Aww, ok, that did seem too good to be true. That's ok, it's still a good defense. I will trade 2 hp for 1 regenerating hp all day.

And regenerating at 1+Burn/minute is a great idea.


The Mystic from Amora Games just came out and is great for scratching the Kineticist's itch of you wanna be an elemental badass sooner rather than later.

We know that at the end of the Playtest Mark will be posting his impressions and what he's likely to do to the class, so let's wait and see.

After the ACG Playtest we had a thread dedicated to feedback on the playtest itself, so hopefully they will make an "Occult Adventures Playtest feedback thread" for us to speak in. My number one complaint was there only being 1 survey because multiple surveys with well written and specific questions would probably help development more than a zero direction playtest.


I feel like having everything in a PDF helps for putting out the initial abilities, for the first draft... but I feel a Google drive spreadsheet or word document could give you updatable revision capabilities. The playtest could be microadjusted every few days with a new build number and re-release date so everyone uses the latest build. It lets the devs play with a few different ideas and wording choices so we can give the best possible results based on ever refining feedback. You make small updates every few days or so until you are happy with how something works, then add an archetype and repeat. Rolling version numbers just feels like it makes more sense to me for any project which isn't set in stone. We are looking at the alpha 1.0 build of this class, by now we could be in beta 3.5

Paizo Employee Designer

I've been trying to give a little direction so far without clobbering over everyone's ability to take their playtests in creative directions. Essentially, as I've mentioned but is likely hard to find in this long thread, I was hoping you guys would stress test the presented options for the kineticist and find results that mirrored mine (that the damage needed a boost), though I held out for the possibility that everyone else's eyes found something that I missed that would increase the damage more. So far, it's seeming that I managed to catch everything that other playtests have caught this time around, so all is going according to plan. As I mentioned, I think this plan is better than releasing something that I think is right on target and risking that someone finds something I missed, requiring the final version to be weakened (though in this case it would have worked out because it seems so far that I found everything the playtest did). Nobody likes when a final version is weakened, even if the class is the summoner.


Oh, silly question. If you use the talents that let you bullrush with your blast, does that blast still do damage? Also how are you supposed to determine the direction of the bullrush? I was originally assuming that I basically picked a direction.

Paizo Employee Designer

David Neilson wrote:
Oh, silly question. If you use the talents that let you bullrush with your blast, does that blast still do damage? Also how are you supposed to determine the direction of the bullrush? I was originally assuming that I basically picked a direction.

It does damage. It's the direction of the blast. Blasts that lack a direction, like cloud, can't use that infusion. This does mean that with snaking, you can basically choose a direction.


Ah, fair enough I was worried I was doing wrong by adding damage. Was also not sure that a telekinetists blasts were assumed to originate from him. Since you are essentially picking something up and hucking it. Unfortunately I never consider these questions when reading over the play test document it seems.

So can where you push the person vary in the same way you can sometimes 'ladder' a lightening bolt around your friends depending on where your point of origin is?

Lantern Lodge

Mark Seifter wrote:
David Neilson wrote:
Oh, silly question. If you use the talents that let you bullrush with your blast, does that blast still do damage? Also how are you supposed to determine the direction of the bullrush? I was originally assuming that I basically picked a direction.
It does damage. It's the direction of the blast. Blasts that lack a direction, like cloud, can't use that infusion. This does mean that with snaking, you can basically choose a direction.

That is one thing that never made sense to me, why limit the bull rush from the blast if you're using that? why just not let it work like a normal bull rush where it can potentially push them back as far as the check allows?


Mark Seifter wrote:
I've been trying to give a little direction so far without clobbering over everyone's ability to take their playtests in creative directions. Essentially, as I've mentioned but is likely hard to find in this long thread, I was hoping you guys would stress test the presented options for the kineticist and find results that mirrored mine (that the damage needed a boost), though I held out for the possibility that everyone else's eyes found something that I missed that would increase the damage more. So far, it's seeming that I managed to catch everything that other playtests have caught this time around, so all is going according to plan. As I mentioned, I think this plan is better than releasing something that I think is right on target and risking that someone finds something I missed, requiring the final version to be weakened (though in this case it would have worked out because it seems so far that I found everything the playtest did). Nobody likes when a final version is weakened, even if the class is the summoner.

Do you have a stance on conductive weapons? Is kinetic blade some kind of attempt to give a balanced melee option for that existing mechanic?

If it is then perhaps you could just handle that with a feat that lets you use your blasts as melee touch attacks or normal melee attacks which then lets you throw conductive on a weapon after the fact.

Here is a break: you get two conductive double barreled pistols. That is going to be 4 attacks against touch at your highest base attack bonus (kind-of at minus 4 for dual weilding and using both barrels, but at later levels this will be a MORE accurate option because you can use the enhancement bonuses on the gun that will eventually reach +5 and certain additional feats and class abilities might come into play as well).


Mark Seifter wrote:
I've been trying to give a little direction so far without clobbering over everyone's ability to take their playtests in creative directions. Essentially, as I've mentioned but is likely hard to find in this long thread, I was hoping you guys would stress test the presented options for the kineticist and find results that mirrored mine (that the damage needed a boost), though I held out for the possibility that everyone else's eyes found something that I missed that would increase the damage more. So far, it's seeming that I managed to catch everything that other playtests have caught this time around, so all is going according to plan. As I mentioned, I think this plan is better than releasing something that I think is right on target and risking that someone finds something I missed, requiring the final version to be weakened (though in this case it would have worked out because it seems so far that I found everything the playtest did). Nobody likes when a final version is weakened, even if the class is the summoner.

What about the Butterfly Sting/Vital Strike options? Do those exceed your expectations?

Paizo Employee Designer

Tels wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
I've been trying to give a little direction so far without clobbering over everyone's ability to take their playtests in creative directions. Essentially, as I've mentioned but is likely hard to find in this long thread, I was hoping you guys would stress test the presented options for the kineticist and find results that mirrored mine (that the damage needed a boost), though I held out for the possibility that everyone else's eyes found something that I missed that would increase the damage more. So far, it's seeming that I managed to catch everything that other playtests have caught this time around, so all is going according to plan. As I mentioned, I think this plan is better than releasing something that I think is right on target and risking that someone finds something I missed, requiring the final version to be weakened (though in this case it would have worked out because it seems so far that I found everything the playtest did). Nobody likes when a final version is weakened, even if the class is the summoner.
What about the Butterfly Sting/Vital Strike options? Do those exceed your expectations?

I'm keeping an eye on melee vital strike with regards to the final wording of those infusions. As to Butterfly Sting, as ridiculous as that feat may be, it's not really any more ridiculous for kinetic blast than for the usual x4 crit usages, so I'm not any more concerned than I normally am by Butterfly Sting. I'm going to try hard to make sure that overpowered (or even just plain weirdly-interacting) options from other lines of books don't cause undue issues for the kineticist class, and I'm grateful to everyone who has gone and found the ones they can, so I can see what I can do.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Matilda the Urchin 7th level Telekineticist, an attempt at a Telekineticist rogue which abuses traits a little bit so I can disable devices via telekinesis.

Matilda is capable of dealing some decent damage, averaging about 64 damage on an Empowered/Deadly Aim/Vital Strike, which she can deal to two enemies at once if she uses her foe throw. (Without empowered her Vital Strike deals about 46 damage on average). That's really nothing to sneeze at, a +11 attack bonus is also pretty good for level 7 and instead of Kinetic Cover she can use a move action to move any object weighing up to 700 lbs to provide herself cover.

Here's what a couple of rounds from Matilda might look like.

Foe Throw (taking Burn damage) to hit two foes against each other, Vital Striking of course to deal roughly 46 damage to two opponents. Move action grab a nearby table/bed/statue/shield to take cover behind. (Preventing charges and providing at least a +4 cover bonus to her decent 23 AC.

Next round: Throw the thing she was using as cover. If the thing doesn't break, use her move action to pick it back up and use it as cover again.

Out of combat, Matilda acts as the party trap finder, she has decent perception and Disable Device, and unlike a rogue can stand safely away from the trap when she disarms it, just in case she flubs the roll.

Question: If Matilda sits on a broom, can she use telekinesis to carry herself with the broom since she move up to 700lbs?

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Question: If Matilda sits on a broom, can she use telekinesis to carry herself with the broom since she move up to 700lbs?

Yes, good question... *steeples fingers*


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Or someone else on a broom. My telekineticist uses 5-10 foot lengths of chain for her bludgeoning damage and several telekinetic maneuvers. Can she pick up a length of chain and allow an ally to dangle from it? RAW she should be able to, logic she should be able to, broken game wise I actually still think she should be able to. If there were more specific out of combat utility uses for our powers, I could accept this being a no. But right now, I feel that munchkinly utility is the only utility the class has, and I feel that it actually does deserve that. Creative use of your powers is the greatest form of utility I can picture, and would be amazing for this class.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Shiroi wrote:
...right now, I feel that munchkinly utility is the only utility the class has, and I feel that it actually does deserve that. Creative use of your powers is the greatest form of utility I can picture, and would be amazing for this class.

Well put.


Since the kineticist is so centered around burn, it totally needs a Burninator archetype ;)

Spoiler:
TROGDOR!!!


Matrix Dragon wrote:

Since the kineticist is so centered around burn, it totally needs a Burninator archetype ;)

** spoiler omitted **

Hey! I resemble that remark! Also, I approve.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Artanthos wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

No.

But neither is my Kineticist for 2/3 of those.

All day long, every day. Kinetic Form II (air), by itself, is giving +2 to-hit and +5 AC and 60' fly for 2 burn. This is in addition to the +2 to-hit/damage from FtB. Kinetic Form II (water) costs the kinticist 0 HP, still gives 5 AC, give FtB bonuses, and increases base CON mods to Fort and damage by +2.

Flesh of Stone, Shroud of Water & Force Ward provide their own benefits, though the cost/benefit ratio is not as strongly in the kineticist's favor.

ZERO of these things are "Adding con to hit, damage, and AC".

They are taking HP damage to cast spells. There is a very large difference here.

Artanthos wrote:


It is the way the class currently works. The kineticist has the option to use CON for roles normally reserved for STR and DEX.

No. No he doesn't. He adds his Con to Blast damage...and that's it. That's the only changing of Con roles he has.

Artanthos wrote:
With the kineticist, everything is optional. You add resource management as a player skill as you decide how much burn you want to generate and how you want to generate it.

It's only optional if you don't want to do any g+# d@*n thing interesting with the class. Because almost everything worth using costs Burn.

Artanthos wrote:
I feel Burn makes perfect sense and enjoy the mechanic. I do not want to see it changed.

How does it make sense? Why, logically, do you think it works this way?

What in-universe explanation is there for unhealable damage when people can regrow limbs, create an entire body that's been turned to dust and then call back someone's spirit from the afterlife, or even resurrect a corpse that is long dead and possibly doesn't exist any more (with the quite reasonable time limit of 200 years)?

With that sort of logic, why isn't the Kineticist 10x more badass? Because he's obviously ripping power from something GODLIKE in power to cause that effect.

And, besides all that, what's the mechanical sens it makes? What is there in this class that requires that sort of hefty price? I can't find anything.

A bunch of extra AC? Some DR? A solid chunk of damage? Kinetic Form?

None of that is powerful enough to warrant nearly exponentially increasing unhealable damage on the class.

ALL of those can be replicated to some degree or another with spells. That's the kind of game we have.

So if class X can do it comparatively free, why can't class Y do it?


Taking a point of Burn is more-or-less equivalent to -2 Con, save that you keep the Fort saves and have a nicer buffer until you die.

So, taking a point of Burn first thing in the morning to increase Shroud of Water's AC by 1 is effectively converting 2 Con into +1 AC, +1 to hit, +1 to damage. In its own way it's somewhat akin to being able to swap your stats on the fly.

Mark explained it better a ways back in the thread, but I don't want to dig that far.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Not sure if this has been asked or not, but here goes;

Quote:
"Bear's Endurance: The affected creature gains greater vitality and stamina. The spell grants the subject a +4 enhancement bonus to Constitution, which adds the usual benefits to hit points, Fortitude saves, Constitution checks, and so forth. Hit points gained by a temporary increase in Constitution score are not temporary hit points. They go away when the subject's Constitution drops back to normal. They are not lost first as temporary hit points are."

As I understand it, this would also raise the amount of burn one could receive but I'm curious as to how this effect would actually interact with the class.

Would a temporary increase in Con also allow a Kineticist to go beyond their usual limit of burn per day? If my 9th level aerokineticist has reached her limit of 8 burn, for example, and has Bear's endurance cast on her, does this mean that she'd gain 2 more points of burn left to use until the spell wears off? What happens if those points are used and the spell does wear off, is she stuck with having 10 burn for the day?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd like to take the opportunity to say that if for some reason it was determined that the kineticist was absolutely, incontrovertibly unplayably bad compared to literally every other class in the game... I enjoy the concept of the burn mechanic enough that I would find a way. I would run a whole group of kineticists and lower the difficulty of the campaign to account for them for a chance to play this class, burn and all. I would not do the same for the class if it didn't have burn. I like the concept, just as much as some people dislike it.


Does anyone think we'll get some Sylph, Ifrit, Undine, etc. love for the kineticist.


Falkenhayn wrote:

Not sure if this has been asked or not, but here goes;

Quote:
"Bear's Endurance: The affected creature gains greater vitality and stamina. The spell grants the subject a +4 enhancement bonus to Constitution, which adds the usual benefits to hit points, Fortitude saves, Constitution checks, and so forth. Hit points gained by a temporary increase in Constitution score are not temporary hit points. They go away when the subject's Constitution drops back to normal. They are not lost first as temporary hit points are."

As I understand it, this would also raise the amount of burn one could receive but I'm curious as to how this effect would actually interact with the class.

Would a temporary increase in Con also allow a Kineticist to go beyond their usual limit of burn per day? If my 9th level aerokineticist has reached her limit of 8 burn, for example, and has Bear's endurance cast on her, does this mean that she'd gain 2 more points of burn left to use until the spell wears off? What happens if those points are used and the spell does wear off, is she stuck with having 10 burn for the day?

I'm unsure of RAW but similar spells for int/cha/wis have never given more spells per day. You are (RAI if nothing else) still capped at con+3 burn per day. Temporary con should not adjust that number.

As for FC for the elemental kin, I'd give +1/3 or +1/4 level for the purposes of determining the effects of your elemental defense.


DM_Kumo Gekkou wrote:
Does anyone think we'll get some Sylph, Ifrit, Undine, etc. love for the kineticist.

Unlikely, since there wasn't any ARG content in the ACG. This seems like a good one to use the elemental races for, though, so maybe there'll be some stuff in the "Occult Adventures Origins" player companion if they do another one of those.

As it stands, Undines and Ifrits do pretty well in their own kinetic element; Undines have a good stat spread for a kineticist and Ifrits have some interesting pyrokinetic synergy with the Fire-Starter alternate trait. Sylphs and Oreads seem like they'd be pretty bad for the class, though.


Will it give more Burn per day? Well, only if you have a really low number of Hit Points, it might, under that condition, let you use Burn that would normally make you unconscious. Of course, you would still pass out once the spell wore off.


Honestly the only odd thing to me for Burn is that it is sort of framed as pushing your body further. However one of the ways to do it is arguably waking up and burning in the morning. Which feels odd if it is a "I dig a bit deeper!" ability. Though I suppose they could create a feat that would let you drop lethal damage for even more burn.


Tels wrote:

As a final note, the lists of effects that I included above are not all inclusive, just stuff off the top of my head as I was writing.

I also do not expect that all of the stuff above should make it into the base class; a great deal of it would work well as an archetype. I could easily see an archetype for each element that excludes the others. At the same time, I could see an archetype that focuses on summoning and dominating elementals to serve it, while maintaining only limited blasting capabilities.

Over all, I think the Kineticist chassis is going to prove to be very archetype friendly and, with it's elemental theme, it could have a lot of versatility when it comes to character ideas.

Oh! One more thing, is there any way for the Kineticist to get some backwards compatibility with other things in the game? The elemental Fist and the Dragon/Janni/Shaitan/etc. style feats would all be great fun for the Kineticist. Prestige classes like Dragon Disciple would also be interesting little combos.

I realize this comes rather late, but I see a problem with this.

For one, Dragon Disciple requires you to be able to cast 1st level arcane spells. For another, it only advances levels of an existing spellcasting class in regards to spells per day. It wouldn't advance your kinetic blast damage, or give you the other benefits of the kineticist class.

Kineticists are also somewhat lacking in feats and at present have considerable feat taxes: Point Blank shot, Precise Shot for ranged... Improved Unarmed Strike and Multi-attack for unarmed, and Weapon Focus for melee. So I'm not sure if you'd be able to squeeze in your style feats to a satisfactory degree and still have room for other things.

That said, I'm totally with you on the idea! It'd really be awesome to be able to Dragon Disciple and Dragon Style a kineticist and have capable of punching and blasting the tar outta anything in their way. :D

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

mplindustries wrote:
Mikael Sebag wrote:

So, with this thread now exceeding 3,000 posts (our collective desire to see this class do well is evident), I have two important questions:

1) Is there a consensus yet about what the problem areas of the kineticist are?

2) Are we any closer to providing the designer(s) with solutions for the class's problematic elements? If so, what have we (the Paizo community) come up with?

Consensus problems:

1) Lack of skill points

2) Unquestionably needs more damage

3) More utility powers/more access to utility powers

4) Substance Infusions mostly blow

Solutions: More skill points, more damage, more/better utility powers, splitting utility and blast infusions into separate pools and providing 10 choices from each over 20 levels instead of just 10 total between them, more/better Substance infusions

Edit: forgot some minor ones:

5) We want the fantastic bonuses from kinetic form, but nobody really wants to walk around all day as an amorphous blob of element. Solution: give the bonuses of kinetic form without actually polymorphing the kineticist

6) Fire's defense is terrible and air is "just ok." Solution: make them better, especially by giving more return for Burn.

Problems about half the community seems to have while the other half does not:

1) Burn is too punitive

2) Accuracy is too low

Solutions: I have no clue because I don't have a problem with these things.

Thank you, mpl, for articulating these issues so succinctly. I certainly believe that examining the aggregate of class problems like this is more helpful than belaboring specific feats or weapon properties. I hope that Mark Seifter saw your post, as it really sums it all up (I'm sure he did, he's attentive like that). Having this kind of response also helps playtesters like myself who are newer to the kineticist discussion to get in on the conversation (I've been looking more closely at the occultist and psychic).

I definitely agree that there should be more utility wild talents and that they should be selected separately from form/substance infusions. Also, substance infusions certainly pale in comparison to form infusions in both quantity and quality.

As for burn, I too feel as though it's a bit punitive and the guy doing a pyrokineticist in my playtest felt the same way based on his experience at the table.

My recommended solution for burn: I'm of the opinion that burn should have a certain number of free points (equal to your Con modifier?) and then you can burn as per usual after you've used up your freebies for the day (perhaps to a total maximum of twice your Con, I guess). Has this solution been suggested already?


It has.

I'm not inherently opposed to something like it, but Con mod is way too much. End game, Con mod in free Burn is "go solo a Tarrasque or two"

My favored solution to checking Burn is to scale the gather energy with level; I favor going in line with the Metakinesis abilities for this, after Empower (-2 with your move action at 9th, -3 at 13th, -4 at 17th).

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

kestral287 wrote:

It has.

I'm not inherently opposed to something like it, but Con mod is way too much. End game, Con mod in free Burn is "go solo a Tarrasque or two"

My favored solution to checking Burn is to scale the gather energy with level; I favor going in line with the Metakinesis abilities for this, after Empower (-2 with your move action at 9th, -3 at 13th, -4 at 17th).

I like that as well, but I dislike that burn discourages hp-conscious players from using it at the get-go. I wonder if there's a compromise between our two solutions? (I'm very fond of the idea of scaling the amount of burn one can ignore with the move action).

Thematically, I feel like I also object because I like the idea of "overchanneling", so to speak, and I like that it's an option, but shouldn't that only come after one is done regular-channeling? I realize that infusion specialization can mitigate a lot of burn (particularly if you only go with form infusions), but I'm still not convinced that accepting burn in the first round of combat should be the most mechanically rewarding way to play.

Scarab Sages

Rynjin wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

No.

But neither is my Kineticist for 2/3 of those.

All day long, every day. Kinetic Form II (air), by itself, is giving +2 to-hit and +5 AC and 60' fly for 2 burn. This is in addition to the +2 to-hit/damage from FtB. Kinetic Form II (water) costs the kinticist 0 HP, still gives 5 AC, give FtB bonuses, and increases base CON mods to Fort and damage by +2.

Flesh of Stone, Shroud of Water & Force Ward provide their own benefits, though the cost/benefit ratio is not as strongly in the kineticist's favor.

ZERO of these things are "Adding con to hit, damage, and AC".

1. I pump by con, gaining +damage even without Burn

2. I accept 2 points of burn to use Kinetic form 2
3. The bonus hit points I would have received from CON are now fueling:
. . FtB - +to-hit/+damage
. . +4 Dex - +to-hit/+AC
. . +3 Natual armor - +AC
4. I use burn to augment my elemental defense
. . AC, DR, or regenerating temp HP

My available hit points remain equal to, or higher than, a character who took a 14 CON. I have traded by extra hit points beyond 14 for persistent bonuses: +to-hit, +damage, +AC. Not only does CON add to damage directly, it allows you to withstand burn and gain a second second bonus to damage.

Quote:
No. No he doesn't. He adds his Con to Blast damage...and that's it. That's the only changing of Con roles he has.

You either lack the capacity to follow a straight line path or are unwilling to acknowledge that the path exists. In either case, I outlined that path for you.


I've considered that your burn pool should be equal to your FtB mod. Then you can activate your buffs without feeling that you've "sadomasochistically stabbed yourself on a daily basis for your normal and expected abilities for the duration of your campaign". It's just enough burn to get you started guilt free, after that you're on your own.

I feel it handily solves two separate issues, the thematic "I don't want to open my day with over exerting myself to be as good as the next guy" and the mechanical "I don't think I get enough burn" groups. Also slightly helps the "burn is too costly or doesn't provide enough benefit" group by dividing the HP damage up among a larger number of uses, making each burn average less damage in a sense. The only burn groups this doesn't work for are the "burn is perfect as is" group, who won't complain much about a free buff, and the "I really just don't like burn at all" group, who should probably get their own archetype.


1.) is correct, which I already stated.

2-4 are not. They are paying HP to activate abilities.

They are not adding Con to any other attribute in any way, shape, or form, no matter how you look at it.

When I cast True Strike as a Wizard I'm not adding Int to-hit. Because that's not how it works. I'm spending a spell slot for +20 to-hit.

Likewise the Kineticist does not add Con to AC, to-hit/damage beyond basic Blast damage adding Con, or anything else.

He is expending HP to activate other abilities that grant those things.

You and others are trying to pretty it up as that being the case, when it's a stretch at best.

3,051 to 3,100 of 4,774 << first < prev | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Occult Adventures Playtest / Rules Discussion / General Discussion: Kineticist All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.