General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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This is kind of a dumb question but I'm making a kineticist to play in an hour and made a thread asking what feats and equipment I should be using. While making that thread I realized something I never questioned...

When do I get Wild Talents? Seriously, it looks like I get Wild Talents like a fighter gets Feats from the table but the pattern breaks at level 7 and 15 where I get a wild talent on an odd level. The Wild Talent Class feature does not tell me when I get a wild talent except for level 1.


Shiroi wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Once you accept the burn, you get those benefits for the rest of the day (or longer I guess if you don't recover burn the next day by not resting).
So you are stuck with the penalty to stealth until you sleep, damn.
That gets into a can of worms involving fire elementals as light sources, etc. The class is not intended to receive penalties to Stealth, though just like with many other transformative class features of other classes, it may make disguising harder if you don't use a hat of disguise or the like.

This actually brings up another worry that I have had about this class. Once you take some burn and have Feel the Burn running, you look really really out of place in a city. People aren't going to let you walk into a building if it looks like you are on fire!

I like the idea of the visual effect, but in games where GMs take notice if it players will have to wear a Hat of Disguise just to get around. It it is about as bad as dealing with an eidolon in a town. Some players will feel like they're forced to not use burn when in a town if the Hat of Disguise isn't available, and this will effectively give them a lower accuracy than a rogue.

Maybe the visual effects of feel the burn should only come up when the kineticist is using his abilities (or when he wants them to) rather than being an all day long thing?

I agree. Or, better still, since it has absolutely no mechanical benefit to the class for them to do that, make a statement in the class description along the lines of "Some Kineticists even revel in the feeling of Burn, and allow their natural element to run wild through their bodies, causing them to..."

This makes it an aesthetic design choice of your character, when they choose to allow it to happen, rather than an immutable fact of life.

Maybe the rule should be that you can suppress the visible effect with a full round of concentration but the visual effects return when you use one of your kineticist abilities. I think that comes off pretty cleanly and the fact that you don't have complete control over the effect is still a nice little bit of flavor.


You get them every even level plus at first (because, duh), then 7th and 15th because those are levels you are allowed to take expanded elements. Way earlier in the thread, it was explained by Mark that the alpha version straight up had expanded element at 7th and 15th, but some one internally suggested allowing any talent at those levels just in case someone didn't want more elements.


@TheRamza: Agree on the pushing past limits thing. This is why I feel the limit on Burn needs to be lifted. Then again, I'm very big on the whole thing of burning yourself out.

Such a thing should, thematically, be tied to Con in any case. That said, it will feel horribly cheap if the damage can be healed all willy nilly.

Personally, I'd really like to see fatigue play a role here... Such as if the Burn restriction is removed, if you've burned through half your con in burn points you're fatigued, 3/4th you're exhausted, or some such.

Though that brings up the oracle-dipping and such. Hmm...

Shadow Lodge

A think the burn should scale at the power attack ratio "at least"


It had seemed to me that Feel the Burn would allow one to choose how it manifested itself. If so, you could flavor it however you chose. Instead of flaming eye sockets, perhaps you just put off a bit more heat, as if you had an intense fever. I'm sure with some creativity, if one can flavor feel the burns effects to their character, one could fine a manifestation that wouldn't put the village up in arms. All of this is based on whether you CAN re-flavor feel the burn as you wish of course.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I think a found a small problem with infusions. One being there is no normal metal blast. So you couldn't use Rare Metal Infusion, because earth blast states "You shape earth into clumps or jagged shards." And Rare Metal Infusion states the associated blasts is metal. Unless Rare Metal Infusion is sub-post to change earth blast into metal, then it brings the next problem which you can only have one form and one substance. But you need Rare Metal Infusion to use Magnetic Infusion in-which both are substance, so I think something is missing somewhere.


mplindustries wrote:
So, rereading shroud of water, is there actually anything stopping me from using it twice to get water armor and a shield? There's no indication that I can't just use it twice. It says I can pick one or the other and switch between them, but, could I technically just use it again and get the other bonus?

I would question the sequence of events behind that. The text is pretty explicit in it being one or the other with the ability to switch between them. And I'm envisioning it a lot like a light switch. You can't turn a switch to the on position to get more light if it's already in the on position.

Also that'd be obnoxiously broken. Hydrokineticist at level 10, two points of Burn in Kinetic Form and one point in Shroud of Water, you get 20 AC and Feel the Burn maxed. That's kind of ridiculous.


Glen Silverstone wrote:
I think a found a small problem with infusions. One being there is no normal metal blast. So you couldn't use Rare Metal Infusion, because earth blast states "You shape earth into clumps or jagged shards." And Rare Metal Infusion states the associated blasts is metal. Unless Rare Metal Infusion is sub-post to change earth blast into metal, then it brings the next problem which you can only have one form and one substance. But you need Rare Metal Infusion to use Magnetic Infusion in-which both are substance, so I think something is missing somewhere.

Metal is the Earth/Earth Composite blast

Lantern Lodge

kestral287 wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
So, rereading shroud of water, is there actually anything stopping me from using it twice to get water armor and a shield? There's no indication that I can't just use it twice. It says I can pick one or the other and switch between them, but, could I technically just use it again and get the other bonus?

I would question the sequence of events behind that. The text is pretty explicit in it being one or the other with the ability to switch between them. And I'm envisioning it a lot like a light switch. You can't turn a switch to the on position to get more light if it's already in the on position.

Also that'd be obnoxiously broken. Hydrokineticist at level 10, two points of Burn in Kinetic Form and one point in Shroud of Water, you get 20 AC and Feel the Burn maxed. That's kind of ridiculous.

No you could have an Ac of 9 from Shroud of Water. Normal at lvl 10 would 6, you can't go more than 50% over the starting value.


kestral287 wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
So, rereading shroud of water, is there actually anything stopping me from using it twice to get water armor and a shield? There's no indication that I can't just use it twice. It says I can pick one or the other and switch between them, but, could I technically just use it again and get the other bonus?

I would question the sequence of events behind that. The text is pretty explicit in it being one or the other with the ability to switch between them. And I'm envisioning it a lot like a light switch. You can't turn a switch to the on position to get more light if it's already in the on position.

Also that'd be obnoxiously broken. Hydrokineticist at level 10, two points of Burn in Kinetic Form and one point in Shroud of Water, you get 20 AC and Feel the Burn maxed. That's kind of ridiculous.

Well, I made a level 10 hydrokineticist with 38 AC upthread a few pages already. I was wearing +2 Mithril Kiko, and I spent 4 total burn (2 on kinetic form and 2 on my water shield).

Allowing me to use both versions of shroud of water at once would mostly be for flavor. It really would just save me like 5k gold (though increasing as I level), which is pretty small, percentagewise.

I would even be willing to take expanded defense for this--I am really into the flavor of not wearing armor.


Ferus Allen wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
So, rereading shroud of water, is there actually anything stopping me from using it twice to get water armor and a shield? There's no indication that I can't just use it twice. It says I can pick one or the other and switch between them, but, could I technically just use it again and get the other bonus?

I would question the sequence of events behind that. The text is pretty explicit in it being one or the other with the ability to switch between them. And I'm envisioning it a lot like a light switch. You can't turn a switch to the on position to get more light if it's already in the on position.

Also that'd be obnoxiously broken. Hydrokineticist at level 10, two points of Burn in Kinetic Form and one point in Shroud of Water, you get 20 AC and Feel the Burn maxed. That's kind of ridiculous.

No you could have an Ac of 9 from Shroud of Water. Normal at lvl 10 would 6, you can't go more than 50% over the starting value.

Under the assumption being discussed-- that it can be activated twice to get both bonuses-- you get this:

1. Armor Bonus of 4+2 (level 10)
2. Shield bonus of 2+2 (level 10)
3. One point of Burn to increase Armor Bonus AC by 1
4. Kinetic Form (Medium Water Elemental) grants +5 Natural Armor

6+4+1+5= Net AC 16 over baseline, add in Dex and items, should be at 35 or so on the low end. I was trying to do things in my head the complicated way earlier so my numbers were off, but under the idea of being activated twice you get way more than 9 for way less investment (maximum investment, assuming a sufficiently high Con mod, would be 4 more Burn for a total of 20 AC. This is a silly thing to do, don't do it). Since the second activation would be a new starting value rather than an increase, the 50% limit that is explicitly tied to boosting it via Burning isn't applied.

Which brings me back to my point: it'd be broken, and it doesn't work under the rules unless you decide you can turn a light switch on twice without turning it off first.

mplindustries wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
So, rereading shroud of water, is there actually anything stopping me from using it twice to get water armor and a shield? There's no indication that I can't just use it twice. It says I can pick one or the other and switch between them, but, could I technically just use it again and get the other bonus?

I would question the sequence of events behind that. The text is pretty explicit in it being one or the other with the ability to switch between them. And I'm envisioning it a lot like a light switch. You can't turn a switch to the on position to get more light if it's already in the on position.

Also that'd be obnoxiously broken. Hydrokineticist at level 10, two points of Burn in Kinetic Form and one point in Shroud of Water, you get 20 AC and Feel the Burn maxed. That's kind of ridiculous.

Well, I made a level 10 hydrokineticist with 38 AC upthread a few pages already. I was wearing +2 Mithril Kiko, and I spent 4 total burn (2 on kinetic form and 2 on my water shield).

Allowing me to use both versions of shroud of water at once would mostly be for flavor. It really would just save me like 5k gold (though increasing as I level), which is pretty small, percentagewise.

I would even be willing to take expanded defense for this--I am really into the flavor of not wearing armor.

You can freely consult with your GM for it in a home game, but under the current RAW it's impossible due to frequent reference to "either" an armor or shield bonus, and doesn't work even if you take Expanded Defense, because you can't take that for an element that you have. Personally, in a home game I'd probably let you at the cost of Expanded Defense.

That said, if you don't want to wear armor... don't wear it? You'd still have 33 AC by my count.


Or grab Bracers of Armor and meta that it's your Water being used to provide said bonus. Just pay the gold, forgo your bracers slot, and let the AC be included in your shroud. As a DM I wouldn't make you wear them, just show that you ponied up for said AC and I have no problem letting you keep it. :)


Interesting alternate version of feel the burn though I would grant force resistance instead of sonic for aether.


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Aether could do so much with force. My force Wizard was probably one of my favorite casters, he used Spiked Ball relentlessly. No DR or Resistance applied, touch was usually the attack method, overall he was consistent. While a "Push when you need it" build works great for this class, consistent moderate damage output regardless of the situation is not exactly their specialty. Aether feels like the best choice for that, with Earth the close second. But I do have an alternate idea for it that might feel more balanced.

Overall, I'm somewhat surprised that there isn't more integration with the occult theme for Aether. The class as a whole doesn't feel "occult" all that much. Aether has a huge potential, I feel, to connect with the occult as an Ectokineticist. More so than any of the others, Aetherkinticists derive their powers from the Ethereal plane. It wouldn't take much to draw a hard link there, and it would open up some 'ecto' substance infusions for the Aether manipulator. Add a few things like See Invisibility to match the Sight powers the other guys get, possibly have his "touch" attack be a ball of ectoplasm, dealing bludgeoning touch (yes, this would be a first to my knowledge, but it would bypass the idea of using force that seems to consistently be declined as too unpredictable, and the idea is that the Ectoplasm is a bludgeoning ball of goo that can phase right through armor, hardly outside the realm of believability).
Add in a few illusion or divination tricks, and the Telekineticist isn't so much using his mind to move objects, he's fully harnessing the powers of the spirit world through the Ethereal Plane and moving things with telepathic communion with the dead.


Real time thoughts:

That 7th level wild talent seems nice because who says no to more talents but wouldn't it be better if it were replaced with a class feature that had nothing to do with the blasts themselves? I know I've only made 2 kineticists (three if you count the same one only leveled up.) but I'm kind of reeling from the low/bad skills and no class features that do anything other than interact with the kineticisms. I just feel kinda like all this thing does really is do damage and not as good as a fighter.

So far I'm level 8 flying and kinetic whip is spectacular. Went with a spring attack build along with combat reflexes. So combat isn't terribly painful. I haven't had to burn myself for accuracy since I'm using touch attacks, although I hope beyond hope that I don't encounter anything with an immunity because then I'll have to fall back on burning myself for two and using air blasts with a +13/+8 attack bonus at the most.

I note that out of kineticists I've built they are both air with one focused on lightning and one wind. Flying+Spring Attack keeps Enveloping Winds relevant but I noticed that there isn't much of 'doing things' with air only. Especially if you choose electricity blasts.

Can we have something to boost spell resistance checks or is there a feat I'm not thinking about?

Oh, there we go. Lava Lurkers...

45% chance of hitting them without burn, 55% with burn. I'll let my team mates deal with this.

Glad I decided not to burn. Took a hit from the lava ball...

Lava Lurker is dead. Not with any of my help but whatever. So everything dies without being able to do anything except for things that. Feels like I should be nerfed and buffed at the same time. I need some more utility stuff so I can at least do a bit of something in situations like this. Just a little bit. Why cant I use my 'gather energy' move action to be more accurate? My specialization already reduces burn enough where I don't have to take burn if its not an emergency.


Malwing wrote:
Why cant I use my 'gather energy' move action to be more accurate?

This I'm liking.


Spell Resistance: Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration works. The idea was bandied about for a bit for Feel the Burn to also give you a boost vs. SR, which I thought was really cool and really worthwhile.


Malwing wrote:

Real time thoughts:

That 7th level wild talent seems nice because who says no to more talents but wouldn't it be better if it were replaced with a class feature that had nothing to do with the blasts themselves? I know I've only made 2 kineticists (three if you count the same one only leveled up.) but I'm kind of reeling from the low/bad skills and no class features that do anything other than interact with the kineticisms. I just feel kinda like all this thing does really is do damage and not as good as a fighter.

So far I'm level 8 flying and kinetic whip is spectacular. Went with a spring attack build along with combat reflexes. So combat isn't terribly painful. I haven't had to burn myself for accuracy since I'm using touch attacks, although I hope beyond hope that I don't encounter anything with an immunity because then I'll have to fall back on burning myself for two and using air blasts with a +13/+8 attack bonus at the most.

I note that out of kineticists I've built they are both air with one focused on lightning and one wind. Flying+Spring Attack keeps Enveloping Winds relevant but I noticed that there isn't much of 'doing things' with air only. Especially if you choose electricity blasts.

Can we have something to boost spell resistance checks or is there a feat I'm not thinking about?

Oh, there we go. Lava Lurkers...

45% chance of hitting them without burn, 55% with burn. I'll let my team mates deal with this.

Glad I decided not to burn. Took a hit from the lava ball...

Lava Lurker is dead. Not with any of my help but whatever. So everything dies without being able to do anything except for things that. Feels like I should be nerfed and buffed at the same time. I need some more utility stuff so I can at least do a bit of something in situations like this. Just a little bit. Why cant I use my 'gather energy' move action to be more accurate? My specialization already reduces burn enough where I don't have to take burn if its not an emergency.

Just making sure,,you do know FtB lasts all day? So that 2 points of burn you take to add 10% to your accuracy doesn't go away. It feels from how you describe it that you are applying it on a turn by turn basis, I could be misreading you. You use anything that causes burn, and FtB gives you that much to attack and defense, up to the FtB limit, for the rest of the day, even if you don't use another point of burn all day.

55% is still horrible, but at least it's not only when you spend 2+ burn a round to maintain it. :)

Also, for first attack accuracy that's really bad. Mind posting your build? What point buy system did you use? Was the encounter CR appropriate? What were the teammates and how was their Accuracy and DPR?


Yeah, but I don't need +10% accuracy all day at the expense of being able to die faster. If I'm in a situation where I might need more accuracy I have to weigh my options as opposed to just willy-nilly burn up for the first fight of the day and run around with -16 hp. FtB has a cost and I don't take costs lightly.


Hey Mark? Another clarification. Omnikinesis? If I'm earth/earth, can I be assumed to have "2 earth blasts" and therefor trade one of them for water, qualifying me to take Kinetic Form Water for the day? Or do I still lose the earth blast entirely to do so? It feels like earth, fire, and Aether only getting one blast each means they can't rightly "swap" Blasts unless they multielement out at some point, or trade another talent for expanded element (wrecking their build as well as spending a burn) whereas air and water can pick one of their two blasts to trade out. I don't see many people actually caring, but it'd be nice to know.

It does open options for the "I want ranged iteratives" crowd, by spending 1 burn or a move action to reduce that burn you may fire all simple blasts that you have access to. You make the first attack at your highest base attack bonus, and take a cumulative -5 to hit with each attack. (Which is to say, 2 at 7 and 3 at 15, more or less in line with iterative melee. May have to make it a talent you take at lvl 8 to keep it from being done a level early)

I know I'm missing some wording loopholes in here, but can't think clearly atm. It's a concept anyways.


Human 20 point buy.

After items and such,

str 20
des 14
con 16
int 10
wis 12
cha 8

Feats: Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack

Wild Talents: Kinetic Blade, Air Cushion, Kinetic Whip, Wings of Air, Expanded Element-air, Thunderstorm Blast

Form Infusion specialist +2

Favored class bonuses into HP

Skills: 8 ranks into Fly, 4 into Knowledge Nature, 8 into Perception, 4 into Stealth

no traits


oh yeah. my team mates were the lvl 7 fight, cleric, and wizard iconics from the NPC codex. Valeros is currently dead.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Bolin 7th Level Geokineticist from Legend of Korra.


With FtB you'd be effective 26 str/10 con. Definitely moving towards glass cannon there. A belt of physical might +4 would be 2/3 of your wbl, but would add +2 to hit from str and give you an extra 2 con mod to burn while staying at your current HP. BoPM+2 is only a sixth your wbl and adds a permanent +10% accuracy and a few points of DMG the same way. Can I ask what you've spent the loot on? Gotta be something decent in your spending that makes up for not having those combat bonuses. Good feats all around, though if accuracy is your major problem then weapon focus may be better than toughness for your build (after all, your a 16 con who isn't burning that up at the start of the day like most of us).
I'm not trying to "optimize" your character, far from it. I'm just looking at how you've done things and seeing what benefits you got in exchange for that accuracy.

And since the CR 10 creatures I looked at seemed to have around AC 24 or lower, (I didn't see a lava lurker at all on d20) which is about in line with where you seem to be on accuracy, it feels like that was a group vs single monster CR+2 appropriate encounter. Does that sum it up well? If so, I'm curious what everyone else's to hit was. The fighter has a +8 BAB, probably a 20 in Str and a Magic weapon at most +3, if someone was very generous and sword happy. So thats a +16 to hit, maybe greater weapon focus gets that to +18, maybe power attack takes it back down some. Am I in the ballpark?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
graystone wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Why cant I use my 'gather energy' move action to be more accurate?
This I'm liking.

Maybe you could double accuracy bonuses from burn whenever you are gathering energy. That would divert attention from what I think are somewhat apocryphal "full attack" options (more strongly reward standard action attacks) and give people the increased accuracy (and general benefit) that they want for their burn.

Malwing wrote:
Yeah, but I don't need +10% accuracy all day at the expense of being able to die faster. If I'm in a situation where I might need more accuracy I have to weigh my options as opposed to just willy-nilly burn up for the first fight of the day and run around with -16 hp. FtB has a cost and I don't take costs lightly.

You don't die more easily, though. You are put out of a single fight more easily. Dying is bad. Being out of a fight is something that can happen a lot of ways and maybe loses you a turn or two in a given fight.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
graystone wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Why cant I use my 'gather energy' move action to be more accurate?
This I'm liking.
Maybe you could double accuracy bonuses from burn whenever you are gathering energy. That would divert attention from what I think are somewhat apocryphal "full attack" options (more strongly reward standard action attacks) and give people the increased accuracy (and general benefit) that they want for their burn.

I'd prefer it as an option to use instead of burn. For example, reduce burn or get a bonus to hit. it'd at least make the gap between full FTB characters and those that don't start the day with FtB.


graystone wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
graystone wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Why cant I use my 'gather energy' move action to be more accurate?
This I'm liking.
Maybe you could double accuracy bonuses from burn whenever you are gathering energy. That would divert attention from what I think are somewhat apocryphal "full attack" options (more strongly reward standard action attacks) and give people the increased accuracy (and general benefit) that they want for their burn.
I'd prefer it as an option to use instead of burn. For example, reduce burn or get a bonus to hit. it'd at least make the gap between full FTB characters and those that don't start the day with FtB.

Reducing the burn really throws off all the math so I can't support that (it would create at-will composite and meta-whatever blasts much much sooner for instance). A flat accuracy boost is not so bad though.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
graystone wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
graystone wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Why cant I use my 'gather energy' move action to be more accurate?
This I'm liking.
Maybe you could double accuracy bonuses from burn whenever you are gathering energy. That would divert attention from what I think are somewhat apocryphal "full attack" options (more strongly reward standard action attacks) and give people the increased accuracy (and general benefit) that they want for their burn.
I'd prefer it as an option to use instead of burn. For example, reduce burn or get a bonus to hit. it'd at least make the gap between full FTB characters and those that don't start the day with FtB.
Reducing the burn really throws off all the math so I can't support that (it would create at-will composite and meta-whatever blasts much much sooner for instance). A flat accuracy boost is not so bad though.

I'm confused. The move action right now reduces the burn. I'm saying you can use as is OR get a bonus to hit. So just altering the gather energy action, not messing with anything else.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Bolin 7th Level Geokineticist from Legend of Korra.

Now that I'm not on my phone... Nice. Any chance you could link me the template, so I can build on there?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Kineticist Character Sheet Template


Malwing wrote:

Human 20 point buy.

After items and such,

str 20
des 14
con 16
int 10
wis 12
cha 8

Feats: Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack

Wild Talents: Kinetic Blade, Air Cushion, Kinetic Whip, Wings of Air, Expanded Element-air, Thunderstorm Blast

Form Infusion specialist +2

Favored class bonuses into HP

Skills: 8 ranks into Fly, 4 into Knowledge Nature, 8 into Perception, 4 into Stealth

no traits

If I were to optimize this build, and I understand that's not necessarily your goal, I would have dumped Str into the toilet (i feel like that's an artifact of when you were focused on kinetic fist), raised Dex and Con with the points, and taken weapon finesse instead of Toughness.

I can't figure out what a lava lurker is or why you couldn't lightning whip them, but a dex focus, I think, would help a lot, especially in the long run with Air elemental form coming and giving a dex buff. You could even function well with the small form (and no burn), since being small would help your accuracy the same as another 2 dex.

You might be even better off, actually with a trait for acrobatics and fly by attack, so you can use vital strike at 9th.


graystone wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
graystone wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
graystone wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Why cant I use my 'gather energy' move action to be more accurate?
This I'm liking.
Maybe you could double accuracy bonuses from burn whenever you are gathering energy. That would divert attention from what I think are somewhat apocryphal "full attack" options (more strongly reward standard action attacks) and give people the increased accuracy (and general benefit) that they want for their burn.
I'd prefer it as an option to use instead of burn. For example, reduce burn or get a bonus to hit. it'd at least make the gap between full FTB characters and those that don't start the day with FtB.
Reducing the burn really throws off all the math so I can't support that (it would create at-will composite and meta-whatever blasts much much sooner for instance). A flat accuracy boost is not so bad though.
I'm confused. The move action right now reduces the burn. I'm saying you can use as is OR get a bonus to hit. So just altering the gather energy action, not messing with anything else.

Ohhhh. I get it, then. I think that could be an idea. Maybe a move action could let you add 1/2 your con to attack (so you benefit in accuracy from having a high con and MAD is abated some?

[edit]
As an additional suggestion: maybe this same bonus should be given for two or three rounds whenever you are suffering from more burn than you can benefit from. That would ensure that all those composite blasts actually hit.


Excaliburproxy wrote:


Ohhhh. I get it, then. I think that could be an idea. Maybe a move action could let you add 1/2 your con to attack (so you benefit in accuracy from having a high con and MAD is abated some?

Yeah, that sounds perfect. ;) It could work baked in, in an archetype or as a feat.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
Ohhhh. I get it, then. I think that could be an idea. Maybe a move action could let you add 1/2 your con to attack (so you benefit in accuracy from having a high con and MAD is abated some?

For that I'd do a talent that works something like:

You may accept 1 additional burn on the first attack you make each round. If you do, you may add your con mod, minimum 1, as a competence bonus to your attack roll. This burn may be reduced with the Gather Energy feature.

Assuming an average Con score of at least 18, this would add +4 to hit. +4 is a 20% increase, but since you aren't using your composite blasts to double damage or empower to add 50% to your damage and so forth (unless you're high enough level to get Empower for free, or are accepting burn) this option is only really worth it when your accuracy is in the tanker, or when you just need to hit a target without worrying too much about how much damage you're doing. If your accuracy is about 40% before using this, it boosts the actual average DPR you deal by about 50%, on par with Empower. If you're above or below that, your efficiency changes. If you have a higher Con score than 18, say 22, it becomes an even trade at around 60% to hit, where it boosts you to 90%. If your Con gets up to, let's say, 26, you're adding a flat 40% chance to hit, if you don't run into your 95% cap first. In exchange, move actions or burn get used up. I'd say that feels about right.


mplindustries wrote:
Malwing wrote:

Human 20 point buy.

After items and such,

str 20
des 14
con 16
int 10
wis 12
cha 8

Feats: Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack

Wild Talents: Kinetic Blade, Air Cushion, Kinetic Whip, Wings of Air, Expanded Element-air, Thunderstorm Blast

Form Infusion specialist +2

Favored class bonuses into HP

Skills: 8 ranks into Fly, 4 into Knowledge Nature, 8 into Perception, 4 into Stealth

no traits

If I were to optimize this build, and I understand that's not necessarily your goal, I would have dumped Str into the toilet (i feel like that's an artifact of when you were focused on kinetic fist), raised Dex and Con with the points, and taken weapon finesse instead of Toughness.

I can't figure out what a lava lurker is or why you couldn't lightning whip them, but a dex focus, I think, would help a lot, especially in the long run with Air elemental form coming and giving a dex buff. You could even function well with the small form (and no burn), since being small would help your accuracy the same as another 2 dex.

You might be even better off, actually with a trait for acrobatics and fly by attack, so you can use vital strike at 9th.

Part of the point of the build was to see what I could do rather than optimize. I really wanted a str build but the more I looked at Kinetic fist the more it was just terrible because I needed too many feats to make Unarmed Strike work on a non monk/brawler. I abandoned TWF and was in a hurry so wound up going for spring attack/reach weapon and ran with it. I was also not 100% sure if I could finesse the whip so decided to deal with it since I was going melee and may want to fist with the air blasts later if I wanted to.

Vital Strike seemed too costly for a hit and run character.


Shiroi wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Ohhhh. I get it, then. I think that could be an idea. Maybe a move action could let you add 1/2 your con to attack (so you benefit in accuracy from having a high con and MAD is abated some?

For that I'd do a talent that works something like:

You may accept 1 additional burn on the first attack you make each round. If you do, you may add your con mod, minimum 1, as a competence bonus to your attack roll. This burn may be reduced with the Gather Energy feature.

Assuming an average Con score of at least 18, this would add +4 to hit. +4 is a 20% increase, but since you aren't using your composite blasts to double damage or empower to add 50% to your damage and so forth (unless you're high enough level to get Empower for free, or are accepting burn) this option is only really worth it when your accuracy is in the tanker, or when you just need to hit a target without worrying too much about how much damage you're doing. If your accuracy is about 40% before using this, it boosts the actual average DPR you deal by about 50%, on par with Empower. If you're above or below that, your efficiency changes. If you have a higher Con score than 18, say 22, it becomes an even trade at around 60% to hit, where it boosts you to 90%. If your Con gets up to, let's say, 26, you're adding a flat 40% chance to hit, if you don't run into your 95% cap first. In exchange, move actions or burn get used up. I'd say that feels about right.

I think adding your full con might be a bit much, but that is pretty much what I was thing.

I will also note that whatever this class feature is will need to explicitly state that you can only mitigate that point of burn with your move actions (or rather make it clear that this is a sort of special kind of burn damage other than what you find with infusions and the like).

Liberty's Edge

I'd suggest not having anything that stacks with Feel the Burn. I mean, Mark Seifter clearly feels that'd throw off the math, so it's not gonna happen. But I really like the idea of gather energy allowing an accuracy boost...so I suggest you can simply use Gather Energy to receive your full Feel The Burn bonus regardless of how much Burn you currently have. Its current use would still be available, but obviously not both at the same time.

This'd allow people to spend a Move Action every turn to avoid needing to take Burn if they really don't like the idea.. That seems a fair trade.

EDIT: Wording could be something like this:

"At 3rd level, instead of reducing Burn, the Kineticist may use this ability to count as having an amount of additional Burn equal to his Feel The Burn ability for purposes of Feel the Burn only until the end of the turn. This remains a move action and carries the same risks as the standard use of the ability."

Tacked onto the gather energy paragraph.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'd suggest not having anything that stacks with Feel the Burn. I mean, Mark Seifter clearly feels that'd throw off the math, so it's not gonna happen. But I really like the idea of Gather Energy allowing an accuracy boost...so I suggest you can simply use Gather energy to receive your full Feel The Burn bonus regardless of how much Burn you currently have. Its current use would still be available, but obviously not both at the same time.

This'd allow people to spend a Move Action every turn to avoid needing to take Burn if they really don't like the idea.. That seems a fair trade.

Why shouldn't it stack? You are essentially punishing people who want to play with burn by denying them access to to their own accuracy bonus. I suspect that you just don't want to feel like you are missing anything by not taking burn.

There is already enough drawback in the fact that you can't give the accuracy bonus to your big guns without taking more burn.


I'd be fine with an option to swap Feel the Burn with the move action accuracy boost.


Perhaps make is an optional class ability, a "you can choose this or that" type thing.


So, DPR for a single attack is, basically, the following formula:

(M-1)CHD + H(D + P)

M = Crit Multplier; C = Crit Threat Rate; H = Hit rate; P = Precision damage and anything else that doesn't increase on a crit like Vital Strike; D = Average damage on a hit that can increase on a crit

Empower basically multiplies the entire thing by 1.5, and that takes the move action to gather energy to make it happen. If you wanted an accuracy boost to fit in that slot, you'd need to raise DPR by a similar amount. You'd want to basically want to create this formula, where B = hit bonus:

1.5((M-1)CHD + H(D + P)) = (M-1)CD(H + .05B) + (H + .05B)(D + P)

Since there's no way I am aware of to raise the crit multiplier from x2, and I'm assuming a single class character, so no precision damage, the formula ultimately reduces down to:

10H = B

So, the bonus you get via the move action basically needs to be equal to the tenths digit of your hit chance for the bonus to be an equal trade. Anything in excess makes the hit bonus more beneficial

A 10% hit rate just needs a +2 to hit to be better, But a 60% hit rate needs a +7. If you have a better than 60% hit rate, you should never use the accuracy bonus over Empowering the blast.

In other words, I find the option unnecessary, because it's most often going to be a trap. How common will hit rates of 60% or less really be?


Malwing wrote:
Vital Strike seemed too costly for a hit and run character.

I dunno, for Flyby Attack, you only need a fly speed as a pre-req, assuming the GM allows monster feats.

Flyby Attack + Vital Strike on an Empowered Kinetic Blade? Seems like a fun time.

Ideally, you would want Power Attack, Flyby Attack, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike and Devastating Strike.

Basically, Power Attack at 3rd, Flyby Attack at 7th, Vital Strike at 9th, Devastating Strike at 13th and Improved Vital Strike at 15th. Makes for a very effective striker build, I think.

Of course, Mark would need to clarify how Empower applies when used in a Vital Strike, but, you're going to have a serious 1-hit wonder on your hands.


mplindustries wrote:

In other words, I find the option unnecessary, because it's most often going to be a trap. How common will hit rates of 60% or less really be?

Now remove the feel the burn bonuses and rerun the numbers. if it's fine without feel the burn, then you're saying you don't need it either.

Notice I'm suggesting an option to replace feel the burn not an addition to. Not everyone is super thrilled at the requirement to max out burn when you wake up.


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Alright, so what if FtB was exactly the opposite? What if an archetype package was that your FtB started maxed out. When you would accept burn, you instead remove FtB until it is empty. At this point you now continue burning as normal. In that build, you start the day with +x+x, and high hp. Then you wear out your excess of energy and start using your own life force to fuel more powers. It's not ideal, since you'd lose accuracy on your biggest blasts at the end of the day, but in return this archetype package is encouraged to hang on to burn as a desperate measure. There may need to be additional tweaks to maintain balance, but would that feel thematically appropriate to you?


Tels wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Vital Strike seemed too costly for a hit and run character.

I dunno, for Flyby Attack, you only need a fly speed as a pre-req, assuming the GM allows monster feats.

Flyby Attack + Vital Strike on an Empowered Kinetic Blade? Seems like a fun time.

Ideally, you would want Power Attack, Flyby Attack, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike and Devastating Strike.

Basically, Power Attack at 3rd, Flyby Attack at 7th, Vital Strike at 9th, Devastating Strike at 13th and Improved Vital Strike at 15th. Makes for a very effective striker build, I think.

Of course, Mark would need to clarify how Empower applies when used in a Vital Strike, but, you're going to have a serious 1-hit wonder on your hands.

You don't really need Power Attack.

Mark's openly stated he's not sure if we'll still get Vital Strike on Kinetic Blade in the final edition (it's on the second page of this thread, I believe-- might be first, definitely no farther), so clarifying how it works might be a bit premature. That said, my current understanding is that you Empower, then you Vital Strike with Empowered extra dice included, because Empowered is modifying the actual weapon being used here rather than being a rider on damage.

graystone wrote:
mplindustries wrote:

In other words, I find the option unnecessary, because it's most often going to be a trap. How common will hit rates of 60% or less really be?

Now remove the feel the burn bonuses and rerun the numbers. if it's fine without feel the burn, then you're saying you don't need it either.

Notice I'm suggesting an option to replace feel the burn not an addition to. Not everyone is super thrilled at the requirement to max out burn when you wake up.

Feel the Burn isn't in that formula. It wouldn't affect how the formula works, unless you added it to one side and not the other-- which would remove the entire point of the setup.

What mlp is saying is that, numerically speaking, if you had the option to add some number to your accuracy or multiply your damage by 150%, those are the numbers (+2 at a 10% hit rate, +7 at a 60% hit rate, etc) that you would need to reach for this to be a viable trade. Regardless of whether your accuracy is 5% or 95%, if it's less than the 10H=B formula you're better off with Empowered. Because it's relatively unlikely that you'll be at the extremely low to-hit rates necessary for any accuracy increaser to actually be viable, there's little point in adding it because it's a sub-par choice overall.

Without Feel the Burn, if you were hitting, say, 40% of the time... you'd need the accuracy booster to a be a +5 to pull out ahead. The numbers I saw bandied about were 1/2 Con. How often is that going to add up to a +5 or better?


Shiroi wrote:
Alright, so what if FtB was exactly the opposite? What if an archetype package was that your FtB started maxed out. When you would accept burn, you instead remove FtB until it is empty. At this point you now continue burning as normal. In that build, you start the day with +x+x, and high hp. Then you wear out your excess of energy and start using your own life force to fuel more powers. It's not ideal, since you'd lose accuracy on your biggest blasts at the end of the day, but in return this archetype package is encouraged to hang on to burn as a desperate measure. There may need to be additional tweaks to maintain balance, but would that feel thematically appropriate to you?

I can work with that too.

kestral287 wrote:

Feel the Burn isn't in that formula. It wouldn't affect how the formula works, unless you added it to one side and not the other-- which would remove the entire point of the setup.

What mlp is saying is that, numerically speaking, if you had the option to add some number to your accuracy or multiply your damage by 150%, those are the numbers (+2 at a 10% hit rate, +7 at a 60% hit rate, etc) that you would need to reach for this to be a viable trade. Regardless of whether your accuracy is 5% or 95%, if it's less than the 10H=B formula you're better off with Empowered. Because it's relatively unlikely that you'll be at the extremely low to-hit rates necessary for any accuracy increaser to actually be viable, there's little point in adding it because it's a sub-par choice overall.

Without Feel the Burn, if you were hitting, say, 40% of the time... you'd need the accuracy booster to a be a +5 to pull out ahead. The numbers I saw bandied about were 1/2 Con. How often is that going to add up to a +5 or better?

That was my point. If this option is meaningless by the formula then FtB is meaningless too. I haven't seen mlp suggesting we get rid of it but instead says that this would be a trap. Something is off in that logic IMO. If one is subpar, the other would be too.

Edit: I've seen players running without the burn bonuses and it wasn't pretty. A +2-3 would have done MUCH more for them than multiplying missed attack damage.


kestral287 wrote:
Tels wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Vital Strike seemed too costly for a hit and run character.

I dunno, for Flyby Attack, you only need a fly speed as a pre-req, assuming the GM allows monster feats.

Flyby Attack + Vital Strike on an Empowered Kinetic Blade? Seems like a fun time.

Ideally, you would want Power Attack, Flyby Attack, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike and Devastating Strike.

Basically, Power Attack at 3rd, Flyby Attack at 7th, Vital Strike at 9th, Devastating Strike at 13th and Improved Vital Strike at 15th. Makes for a very effective striker build, I think.

Of course, Mark would need to clarify how Empower applies when used in a Vital Strike, but, you're going to have a serious 1-hit wonder on your hands.

You don't really need Power Attack.

Mark's openly stated he's not sure if we'll still get Vital Strike on Kinetic Blade in the final edition (it's on the second page of this thread, I believe-- might be first, definitely no farther), so clarifying how it works might be a bit premature. That said, my current understanding is that you Empower, then you Vital Strike with Empowered extra dice included, because Empowered is modifying the actual weapon being used here rather than being a rider on damage.

You're right, you don't need Power Attack, but it's an option, mainly for those who use the touch attacks, because Power Attack doesn't have the same limitation that Deadly Aim does.

Using Power Attack on the non-touch attack methods is ill advised as ti lowers DPR, but if you use it on the touch attack ones, the penalty to hit won't really matter and it could help power through energy resistance, though immunity still blocks its.

For example, a 9th level Aerokineticist with Flyby, Power Attack and Vital Strike has a base attack of 5d6+1/2 Con (lets use Con of 22). If you Empower that, you have 7d6+4, and then Vital Strike for 14d6+4, that averages out to 53 points of damage right there. Toss on Power Attack and 2-hand the one-handed weapon, and you're getting an extra +9 damage (because Empower applies to Power Attack since it increases all numerical bonuses too, +6 damage if it doesn't apply), meaning you hit for an average of 62 (or 59) points of damage per hit.

That's... really good, actually. You're taking a point of burn to do this, because you don't have the move action to negate the Empower burn when using Flyby Attack. However, if you don't use Flyby Attack, and just stand still, then you can negate the burn and Empower for free.

A Non-Empowered, Power Attack-Vital Strike is 10d6+10 for an average of 45 points of damage; still respectable, especially for a mobile striker that's flying through the air, enshrouded in winds to prevent missile fire.


That's why I suggested full Con, because +6 to hit would only require you to have a 60% or less accuracy rating to be worth as much as empowered. At 30% accuracy rating +6 to hit is as good as composite blasting.
But then you hit the point where accuracy is no longer your problem, because if I need a 15 to hit then I'm probably well outside my capabilities and just need to run.

Edit : as much as all that awesome math tells you about whether or not raising accuracy vs adding dice or flat amounts is better, when looking at Empower you need only consider that if my accuracy % is x, then I need to raise it by .5x. In otherwords, 50% damage and 50% odds to hit are the same thing in the end.


graystone wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

Feel the Burn isn't in that formula. It wouldn't affect how the formula works, unless you added it to one side and not the other-- which would remove the entire point of the setup.

What mlp is saying is that, numerically speaking, if you had the option to add some number to your accuracy or multiply your damage by 150%, those are the numbers (+2 at a 10% hit rate, +7 at a 60% hit rate, etc) that you would need to reach for this to be a viable trade. Regardless of whether your accuracy is 5% or 95%, if it's less than the 10H=B formula you're better off with Empowered. Because it's relatively unlikely that you'll be at the extremely low to-hit rates necessary for any accuracy increaser to actually be viable, there's little point in adding it because it's a sub-par choice overall.

Without Feel the Burn, if you were hitting, say, 40% of the time... you'd need the accuracy booster to a be a +5 to pull out ahead. The numbers I saw bandied about were 1/2 Con. How often is that going to add up to a +5 or better?

That was my point. If this option is meaningless by the formula then FtB is meaningless too. I haven't seen mlp suggesting we get rid of it but instead says that this would be a trap. Something is off in that logic IMO. If one is subpar, the other the other would be too.

Edit: I've seen players running without the burn bonuses and it wasn't pretty. A +2-3 would have done MUCH more for them than multiplying missed attack damage.

Wait, what?

That logic doesn't track at all.

What makes the proposed accuracy booster suboptimal is the required move action that means it directly competes with Empowered. Feel the Burn does not compete with Empowered, so trying to put it into that formula wouldn't be possible, let alone educational in any useful sense. If you ran DPR calculations (which is all that mlp did) with "Feel the Burn activate" vs. "No Feel the Burn", every single time it would tell you to maximize Feel the Burn.

And what were those players' hit rates at without Feel the Burn? Knowing that will make it very easy to tell which would do more for them-- it's a simple mathematical formula.

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