As a final note, the lists of effects that I included above are not all inclusive, just stuff off the top of my head as I was writing.
I also do not expect that all of the stuff above should make it into the base class; a great deal of it would work well as an archetype. I could easily see an archetype for each element that excludes the others. At the same time, I could see an archetype that focuses on summoning and dominating elementals to serve it, while maintaining only limited blasting capabilities.
Over all, I think the Kineticist chassis is going to prove to be very archetype friendly and, with it's elemental theme, it could have a lot of versatility when it comes to character ideas.
Oh! One more thing, is there any way for the Kineticist to get some backwards compatibility with other things in the game? The elemental Fist and the Dragon/Janni/Shaitan/etc. style feats would all be great fun for the Kineticist. Prestige classes like Dragon Disciple would also be interesting little combos.
[Edit] Gonna just... leave this here....
You gain a few things:
-Multi-target options.
-Vital Strike compatibility
-Potentially higher damage (if all hit and even out to about average 16d6+2*Con is an average of 56 plus double mods, versus a flat 48 plus one mod).
-Better image (Mustang or Avatar-esque repeated fire throwing > Spirit Bomb)Wouldn't Vital Strike be too much, though? Admittedly, it would only bring the blast damage to Fireball levels, but doing it for free, all the time, every time might be somewhat excessive...
Then again... Blasting is all the Kineticist does. So maybe it's okay.
I don't think so. It's single target for most elements, and Fireball is hardly the king of damage as-is. It would be an amazingly powerful single shot at higher levels (20d6 with VS, 30d6 with IVS, and 40d6 with GVS), which coincidentally...all makes it only as powerful as a single max level Disintegrate.
Regarding alternatives to burn, perhaps rather than something like grit, ki, or arcane resevoir, Kineticists have a buffer zone of burn that lets them pull their fancy tricks, but going over this buffer causes them to take nonlethal damage. The buffer regenerates by hour or during an extended rest period.
I can see people taking advantage of that with Aether's defense, we'd need to hard cap that one. Then your going to see most people, outside of a nearly TPK scenario, playing the class as one use an hour powers, and demanding hour long rests between encounters and so forth. I had a party of vamps and they timed how long a full heal took using their fast healing. They'd go hide in a closet between fights to be fully on top of the next challenge. Same problem here, it could unnecessarily slow progress.
To be fair, in the case of the vampires, that's pretty justifiable. Even if they have lots of hp and only Fast Healing 1, it shouldn't take them more than a few minutes to be fully healed.
The Fox Kitsune build would still be strong for a Geokineticist since their Elemental Form is fairly useless. Not nearly as thematic, admittedly.
Have I missed something? Can the kineticist actually use its blasts forever, every round with no max use?
I keep looking for an update where it limits the amount per day or perhaps a resource points system.
At 7th level (just to pick one element) a fire Kietecist with a con of 16 seems to be able to chuck a 4d6+7 blast every round with no max usage , and its a ranged touch attack. This is the equivalent of a 6d6 attack...at 7th level....every round...forever.
This cant be right? Again, did I miss the limit? Perhaps it didnt download into my guide? Heck spend a little burn (2 points for blue flame) and now its a ranged attack doing 8d6 +14, this of course is equivalent to a 12d6 blast...again...7th level and he takes 14 points of non lethal.
Isnt this a bit much into the OP category?
No class should be pumping out these kind of heavy attacks (in relation to level) ranged touch every round forever with no limit.
I am thinking I have missed something or misread.
Please correct me.
Tels I'm liking what your saying alot, and I agree that that's how each of the fields should function mechanically.
The math has been done on it, and despite that sounding powerful, the Kineticist gets out damaged by an archer Bard or even an archer Expert.Have I missed something? Can the kineticist actually use its blasts forever, every round with no max use?
I keep looking for an update where it limits the amount per day or perhaps a resource points system.
At 7th level (just to pick one element) a fire Kietecist with a con of 16 seems to be able to chuck a 4d6+7 blast every round with no max usage , and its a ranged touch attack. This is the equivalent of a 6d6 attack...at 7th level....every round...forever.
This cant be right? Again, did I miss the limit? Perhaps it didnt download into my guide? Heck spend a little burn (2 points for blue flame) and now its a ranged attack doing 8d6 +14, this of course is equivalent to a 12d6 blast...again...7th level and he takes 14 points of non lethal.
Isnt this a bit much into the OP category?
No class should be pumping out these kind of heavy attacks (in relation to level) ranged touch every round forever with no limit.
I am thinking I have missed something or misread.
Please correct me.
But the archer bard or archer expert has to hit a real AC, not a touch attack..this balances how often the classes hit. But I agree archers are over the top, but we are putting other casters now even farther behind in the dps mechanic with this limitless blaster that will never run out of blasty spells no matter how much they use them. This to me is overshadowing the other casters. We have a few too many monsters as it is...flooding the playing field with even more just makes things worse. I mean of course in a home game this is completely not relevant as a GM can just say whoa! I guess my perspective is geared more to the PFS, where Powergaming tends to run a little higher (nature of the beast) and I just cant see how this is ok. Not even a 7th level archer pumps out a 12d6 attack even if that part is limited. But I really beleive if the Kintecist is only targetting touch, he will hit more often and thus even the playing field or surpass in sustained damage. This is just poo pooing on other casters to me. There needs to be a limit, or a rescource mechanic, they shouldnt be able to blast unlimited forever. No other caster in the game can do that.
The kineticist needs more power and versatility, specially at early levels. Playtest reports have shown that until round level 6 the class feels very incapable of helping effectively. And unable to represent several iconic abilities of kineticists.
Theres also the thought that this caster can wear light armor which is nice. and unlike the archers he can move and do this every round, which an archer while pumping out good damage does more when they dont move for full round actions (the multiple attacks) and then thereis this caster can always cast defensively and blast and not provoke, where an archer has to move out of a foes reach (higher level it gets more and more that its not just 5 ft reach) without having to spend feats to shoot within threat and not provoke. You can sunder a bow, you cant sunder/disarm an archer but not the Kineticist, so theres more dynamics to it than just standing still and pumping out dice, AND an archer will be spending rescources on his gear (bow) to make things better, the kinetecist doesnt have to enchant a weapon to do so. But with all that said, the kinetecist appears to be a full caster type that can go well beyond ANY other caster in terms of sustained or burst damage. He has no equal..and I dont think that should have been the goal with this class.
But its just my opinion.
Halfway-Hagan, something you're forgetting is that the 'touch AC' blasts all have to deal with elemental resistances, especially fire. Fire is the most commonly resisted element in the game, and the most common element creatures are flat-out immune to. That means a Pyrokineticist, as he exists currently, is the worst kineticist to be, because there will be many, many points in the game where his character is straight up useless in a fight. Then, to top it all off, he has to deal with Spell Resistance.
On the flipside, you have the 'normal AC' blasts, like with Geokinetics or Telekinetics. These guys don't have to worry about energy or spell resistance. However, they have to worry about normal AC, and damage reduction. This is huge for them as the class has no method of increasing its accuracy, outside of killing himself to do so via Feel the Burn. Nearly all of the builds shown made so far that I've seen, have the characters using, at best, a 60% hit chance with their non-touch AC blasts.
So, 40% of the time, the blast results in a miss, meaning no damage. Then, you have DR to deal with, and the physical blasts can't bypass DR (other than magic), with the exception of the Rare Metal Wild Talent and even then, that's only DR based off a metal material, like silver or adamantine. So a telekinetic picks up a sword an throws it at someone for 5d6+6 points of damage; only the creature has DR 10/good. So instead of 23 points of damage, he deals 13 points of damage, and, next round, he misses.
Archers deal with normal AC too, but the Archer is likely to hit with an 80% chance or higher on his first attack, and he has multiple attacks. Each attack may deal less damage than a single blast of the Kineticist, but, due to multiple attacks, their damage will be higher over-all. On top of that, as a weapon, it will bypass DR in more forms than the Kineticist will.
Halfway-Hagan, something you're forgetting is that the 'touch AC' blasts all have to deal with elemental resistances, especially fire. Fire is the most commonly resisted element in the game, and the most common element creatures are flat-out immune to. That means a Pyrokineticist, as he exists currently, is the worst kineticist to be, because there will be many, many points in the game where his character is straight up useless in a fight. Then, to top it all off, he has to deal with Spell Resistance.
On the flipside, you have the 'normal AC' blasts, like with Geokinetics or Telekinetics. These guys don't have to worry about energy or spell resistance. However, they have to worry about normal AC, and damage reduction. This is huge for them as the class has no method of increasing its accuracy, outside of killing himself to do so via Feel the Burn. Nearly all of the builds shown made so far that I've seen, have the characters using, at best, a 60% hit chance with their non-touch AC blasts.
So, 40% of the time, the blast results in a miss, meaning no damage. Then, you have DR to deal with, and the physical blasts can't bypass DR (other than magic), with the exception of the Rare Metal Wild Talent and even then, that's only DR based off a metal material, like silver or adamantine. So a telekinetic picks up a sword an throws it at someone for 5d6+6 points of damage; only the creature has DR 10/good. So instead of 23 points of damage, he deals 13 points of damage, and, next round, he misses.
Archers deal with normal AC too, but the Archer is likely to hit with an 80% chance or higher on his first attack, and he has multiple attacks. Each attack may deal less damage than a single blast of the Kineticist, but, due to multiple attacks, their damage will be higher over-all. On top of that, as a weapon, it will bypass DR in more forms than the Kineticist will.
Will I do see this, these are the same issues a normal caster has to deal with, and though a some casters might be able to pump a larger alpha strike they cannot come remotely close to the sustained damage output of the Keneticist as they will run out of spells of that caliber and he never will. Over the course of an adventure this is huge. Every fight, every round in every room. No other caster can compare, as as far as SR and resistances, other casters have to deal with these as well. Is he an archer? No..but no one is. As I said before we all know no one punches damage like the archer classes sustained. But he does have more dynamic advantages in many situations that again can bring him close to par, but compared to other more pure casters...he leaves them in the dust I think.. Every round, every fight all night/session long he is pumping out respectable damage output. Other casters are limited by resources. None of them can do that. The psychic which looks to be a nice dps class is still limited bu spell slots, and once hes out...hes out. And if he casts at every enemy in every fight he will be out very very quickly. Not so with the kenetecist.
But those are my thoughts, we shall see how the play test in PFS goes. Things on paper sometimes dont translate to what happens in the game, so either side could prevail.
|
Telekineticist
Arguably the hardest element to nail down, because Telekinetics has been portrayed in many varied and different ways. There is, of course, the infamous Carrie series, but in the Carrie movies, it's limited almost soley to hurling things and rough manipulation. Closing doors, knocking things down etc. A master of fine manipulation Carrie is not.
On the flip side, you have characters like Jean Grey who are able to use telekinesis to manipulate atoms to re-shape things. This is a bit extreme, but might be cool for high level telekinetics as someone mentioned earlier, for a disintegrate like effect.
Then you've got Push and Chronicle. When I think telekinesis, I think of Chronicle and Push. From forming telekinetic barriers to stop bullets, to waves of energy throwing things backward, to crushing a car by clenching your hand. Like hydrokinetics, telekinetics should be versatile, but not ovwhelmingly powerful. Telekinesis should be the progenitor of all other kinetics, so it should be able to dabble a little in each realm.
The telekinetic should be able to lift huge boulders, like a geokinetic, or lift himself and fly, like an aerokinetic. Both should be better at this than the telekinetic, with the geokinetic having finer control over the boulders, and the aerokinetic being faster and more maneuverable, but the telekinetic should still be able to do it. He should be able to move water and ice and even shape it, but the hydrokinetic should be better. He can part flames, and extinguish fires, but not to the same degree a pyrokinetic can. Damage is not strictly the only method by which a telekinetic can fight either. He should be able to pin down foes with his mind, trip them, disarm them, push them off ledges, hurl them through the air et cetera, et cetera. Discarded weapons should be projecticles for the telekinetic, as he is able to throw spears, swords, rocks, pebbles, bullets, arrows, boulders, icicles, you name it, he can throw it. But he doesn't need to throw only objects...
I agree with Tels and would like to point out that I completely overlooked both Push and Chronicle as sources of inspiration. I think another source of inspiration for the telekineticist is Elfen Lied. The vectors used in the series are a great example of telekinesis in action (especially when Lucy is first introduced). Even if you don't go with Jean Grey as a good example, the vectors of Elfen Lied are an excellent example of what Tels is getting at with this post with what a telekineticist can and should be able to do.
The kineticist needs more power and versatility, specially at early levels. Playtest reports have shown that until round level 6 the class feels very incapable of helping effectively. And unable to represent several iconic abilities of kineticists.
Agreed.
There might be a problem with the Kineticist class power spikes.
If Infusion Specialization moved down to a 2nd or 3rd level class ability, it would make a significant difference.
Insain Dragoon, suggested Expanded Element be a 7th level class feature.
4d6+7 damage is an average of 21. Not that great at 7th level (the average CR 5 enemy has around 60 HP, for comparison. CR-2 mooks can't even be killed in one round by the Kineticist).
|
But the archer bard or archer expert has to hit a real AC, not a touch attack..this balances how often the classes hit. But I agree archers are over the top, but we are putting other casters now even farther behind in the dps mechanic with this limitless blaster that will never run out of blasty spells no matter how much they use them. This to me is overshadowing the other casters. We have a few too many monsters as it is...flooding the playing field with even more just makes things worse. I mean of course in a home game this is completely not relevant as a GM can just say whoa! I guess my perspective is geared more to the PFS, where Powergaming tends to run a little higher (nature of the beast) and I just cant see how this is ok. Not even a 7th level archer pumps out a 12d6 attack even if that part is limited. But I really beleive if the Kintecist is only targetting touch, he will hit more often and thus even the playing field or surpass in sustained damage. This is just poo pooing on other casters to me. There needs to be a limit, or a rescource mechanic, they shouldnt be able to blast unlimited forever. No other caster in the game can do that.
Even targeting touch AC, the kineticist is very much on the low end of the damage scale. They would deal more damage ignoring their elemental blasts, pumping strength, and using a decent two-handed weapon.
Here's a useful comparison for Pyrokinetic vs a Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer with Scorching Ray.
Pyrokinetic targets Touch AC for 4d6+7 (average 21). He can Empower that to 6d6+10 for 2 Burn (one if he stands still). That's 7-14 damage he takes, if I recall. Average Blast damage is now 31.
A Draconic Sorcerer attacks Touch AC twice, for 8d6+8. Average of 36.
One spell slot, 5 more damage From ONE of the spells a Sorcerer knows, without giving up any of the other vastly superior utility options it also has.
That's a problem.
The Archer Bard problem is an order of magnitude worse, but this is a good baseline comparison.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
False premise Halfway-Hagan. There is very little advantage to being able to do something infinitely when you only really need to do it six times a day. This class is really bad at a lot of things for the "benefit" of unlimited uses. Being really poor at your thing unlimited times a day still means you do your thing poorly.
One thing you may be forgetting about casters, is, when the casters run out of spells, is usually when the party decides to retreat.
The Kineticisit is less 'caster' and more 'magical martial'. The Kineticist doesn't cast spells, he fights with magic. Much in the same way a Barbarian or Fighter swings a sword, the Kineticist wields his blast.
In the playtest, AoE options are very limited. So it's less 'Fireballs all day' and more 'single shot Scorching Ray'. In fact, it's actually kind of sad, because, outside of 'Cyclone', 'Spray', and 'Torrent', there are no AoE damage effects before 16th level. The 3 that are available below 16th level aren't exactly impressive, and, oddly enough, none are available to the pyrokineticist.
Cyclone allows for automatic half-blast damage with a reflex save for a further reduction in damamge in a 20 ft. radius. Meaning, at 20th level, your blast damamge is 10d6+con (lets say 36 con for +13), for an average of 48/2=24 points of damage, which can't be taken until 10th level.
Spray is exactly like Cyclone, except it deals damage in a 30 ft. cone, and is also available at 10th level.
Torrent is available at 6th level, deals half-damage, but only affects a 30 ft. line.
So, come 20th level, the AoE blasts that are available below 16th level are only dealing ~24 points of damamge.
At 16th level, you have Cloud, Explosion, and Sharding. Cloud deals 1/4th blast damage in a 20 ft. radius, Explosion deals full blast damamge in a radius of 5, 10, 15, or 20 ft. and Sharding does single target blast damamge, with half blast damage in an AoE around the target.
None of these are very impressive blast damage considering the fact that the damage itself is roughly that of a standard Fireball spell.
Now, there is, of course, the exception being the Composite Blasts being used the the above Form Infusions. However, you have to take into account burn damage in this context. Torrent deals 2 burn damage, Cyclone and Spray each deal 3 burn, and Cloud, Explosion and Sharding all deal 4 burn damage, and the composite blasts themselves deal 2 burn damage.
After a certain point, you can ignore the burn from the Form Infusions, but up until that point, you are taking burn every time you use them. But, oddly enough, when the time comes that you can almost completely negate all of the burn damage, casters are able to do things like Planar Bind minions, or Gate in Planetars.
There comes a point in every casters career where tossing out Fireballs is no longer a good option. Sure, the Kineticist may be able to do 24 damage all day every day with his blast, but, you're playing a full 9th level caster. There is so much more you can do to annihilate your enemies than tossing out a blasting spell.
...Telekineticist
Arguably the hardest element to nail down, because Telekinetics has been portrayed in many varied and different ways. There is, of course, the infamous Carrie series, but in the Carrie movies, it's limited almost soley to hurling things and rough manipulation. Closing doors, knocking things down etc. A master of fine manipulation Carrie is not.
On the flip side, you have characters like Jean Grey who are able to use telekinesis to manipulate atoms to re-shape things. This is a bit extreme, but might be cool for high level telekinetics as someone mentioned earlier, for a disintegrate like effect.
Then you've got Push and Chronicle. When I think telekinesis, I think of Chronicle and Push. From forming telekinetic barriers to stop bullets, to waves of energy throwing things backward, to crushing a car by clenching your hand. Like hydrokinetics, telekinetics should be versatile, but not ovwhelmingly powerful. Telekinesis should be the progenitor of all other kinetics, so it should be able to dabble a little in each realm.
The telekinetic should be able to lift huge boulders, like a geokinetic, or lift himself and fly, like an aerokinetic. Both should be better at this than the telekinetic, with the geokinetic having finer control over the boulders, and the aerokinetic being faster and more maneuverable, but the telekinetic should still be able to do it. He should be able to move water and ice and even shape it, but the hydrokinetic should be better. He can part flames, and extinguish fires, but not to the same degree a pyrokinetic can. Damage is not strictly the only method by which a telekinetic can fight either. He should be able to pin down foes with his mind, trip them, disarm them, push them off ledges, hurl them through the air et cetera, et cetera. Discarded weapons should be projecticles for the telekinetic, as he is able to throw spears, swords, rocks, pebbles, bullets, arrows, boulders, icicles, you name it, he can throw it. But he doesn't need to
Jean Grey is a great example! It's just, the degree of fine control she exhibits with her Telekinesis is too much. I mean, able to re-arrange atoms to make new things? Little far-fetched. I do like the idea of a disintegration effect though.
I was wondering... what if you throw a flask of acid via telekinesis. I know that mark said material components didnt count for DR (some aether fine cape or something) but you would still have acid on your face. That should deal damage...
There is a part of me that doesn't want this to happen, because I know the humor of my group. The number of jokes about a telekinesis blowing his load of acid on a trolls face... *shudder*
|
I was wondering... what if you throw a flask of acid via telekinesis. I know that mark said material components didnt count for DR (some aether fine cape or something) but you would still have acid on your face. That should deal damage...There is a part of me that doesn't want this to happen, because I know the humor of my group. The number of jokes about a telekinesis blowing his load of acid on a trolls face... *shudder*
Theoretically it could also be done with alchemist fire. I beleive this should be adressed somewhow. Because im 100% sure one of my players gonna try this
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was wondering... what if you throw a flask of acid via telekinesis. I know that mark said material components didnt count for DR (some aether fine cape or something) but you would still have acid on your face. That should deal damage...
It should. But it doesn't. Because flimsy excuse.
I get that balancing around allowing tk to use unusual items is difficult but I also think it would be worthwhile. Tk could basically be the weapons kineticist.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Will the Iconic for the Pyrokineticis be a goblin?
There's no minimum size of what can be thrown with tk so you could just throw atoms.
|
|
The issue is it doesn't make sense. Rules shouldn't be so incredibly counter-intuitive. From a balance perspective of the blast does the damage I understand but if I throw an innately dangerous material at you it should be more dangerous then bombardment with pillows.
I believe my immediate response to the ruling was a halfling disguised as a little girl attacking with Mr. Fluffy, her stuffed bear.