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I'm really worried about accuracy...
Blasts don't benefit from weapon enhancements, so right now, they have the same accuracy of a Rogue with no magic weapon (!) and their favored means of boosting to-hit is suffering damage that can't be healed... Yikes!
I'm starting to think this class should have some sort of ki/mana/spirit/whatever pool and save the HP burn for when that pool is depleted. I fear the burn damage will stack up too quickly, forcing the character to choose between not using her class feature or being easily knocked out in combat.
I hate to say it, because it's a really cool concept... But using HP as fuel is starting to seem like a bad idea. Even more so considering it can't be healed by any means (not sure if that restriction is necessary BTW... If the character is willing to use resources to use his class features more often, is that really a problem?)
So... These are my main concerns right now:
- Few skill points and extremely short list of class skills will make Kineticists very limited out of combat.
- The combination of (Medium BAB + no weapon enhancement + d8 + non-healable hp damage to use class features) will make it very fragile and limited in combat... Non-touch Blasts will be mostly worthless at mid/high levels.
Right now, Kineticists are looking like a considerably weaker version of Alchemists...
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Can Weapon Focus be taken with Kinetic Blast?
Additional question: Cyclone says all targets in a 20 ft. radius centered on you take damage. Does that include the kineticist?
Weapon Focus should be yes. Cyclone shouldn't hurt you. But allies? Yeah, they better clear out!
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Just from the first glance at the doc, my wife and I really want to roll up water and fire kineticists, respectfully. Composite blasts are our favorite part because we tend to roll characters that work in tandem with each other, so I'm really hoping that they get expanded in the final book :)
Ooh! Teamwork feats for two Kineticists or a Kineticist and another caster to combine elemental attacks please!
Mark, I have a question.
So, would it be possible to see some umbrakinetic based stuff? Like, dealing with drawing upon the shadows and such for a stealthier type of kineticist? I know they have stealth as a class skill, but there aren't really any abilities that play off of stealth besides their (AWESOME) super range capabilities. I think I'm gonna roll up a telekinetic assassin-like character to see how that plays out.
Not that this class needs stealth, per say. It would just be awesome to have a build that plays off of it. Maybe using negative energy?
It is indeed awesome. Like I said before about wood, I'm not sure I can wrangle the page count for anything as large as another element (in this book). But elsewhere? If there's pagecount, there are myriad cool possibilities out there!
Is there going to be a Kinetic Fist? If yes, would it be like the Sacred Fist archetype for the Warpriest? It could trade the proficiency with light armor and Defense wild talent to get a Con bonus to AC, and unarmed damage progression.
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Just from the first glance at the doc, my wife and I really want to roll up water and fire kineticists, respectfully. Composite blasts are our favorite part because we tend to roll characters that work in tandem with each other, so I'm really hoping that they get expanded in the final book :)This makes me think that there should be a Teamwork Feat for Composite Blasts between two Kineticists. Kind of teaming together to combine their elements for a single more powerful blast.
...Awesome! Yes, I believe this will happen. Even if I have to tear the pages out of other feats myself
Important question for class testing Mark, do you think it better to test the class solo or in an adventuring party? I ask because while important to see the strength of the class on its own merits, it occurs to me that seeing how it interacts with a group is equally important. Curious before I go through the testing phase I have planned :)
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Important question for class testing Mark, do you think it better to test the class solo or in an adventuring party? I ask because while important to see the strength of the class on its own merits, it occurs to me that seeing how it interacts with a group is equally important. Curious before I go through the testing phase I have planned :)
An excellent question, phoenixmw!
I would rather have 1 playtest in a party fighting a full adventure than 50 playtests of the kineticist soloing things in an enclosed arena combat.
Alrighty, I think I will put him and a party through the Skinsaw Murders (YAY Rune Lords!) then. See what exactly happens to my poor little guy.
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Alrighty, I think I will put him and a party through the Skinsaw Murders (YAY Rune Lords!) then. See what exactly happens to my poor little guy.
Having run that one, certain kinds of kineticist would, I think, be fantastic.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and if the hit goes down to 0, no paralysis! And a strong Fort save + high Con just in case.
What I was thinking about was more Thematic, and maybe it will be archetypes or something for this approach.
People have mentioned wanting a multi-elementalist from earlier levels. I agree.
What about the other extreme - someone who wants only FIRE. There are some things there for some elements to have hybrid or powered up version of their own element, but the capstone really doesn't do much for someone wanting a single specific element.
It seems that as it is, you can be mostly 1 element, with multi element coming later than multi elementists want, or mostly one 1 element, loosing out on some of the later cool mechanical bits because you want to stay with 1 element - sort of working both sides, but not really doing one side or the other really well.
Just from the first glance at the doc, my wife and I really want to roll up water and fire kineticists, respectfully. Composite blasts are our favorite part because we tend to roll characters that work in tandem with each other, so I'm really hoping that they get expanded in the final book :)This makes me think that there should be a Teamwork Feat for Composite Blasts between two Kineticists. Kind of teaming together to combine their elements for a single more powerful blast....Awesome! Yes, I believe this will happen. Even if I have to tear the pages out of other feats myself
I don't wanna read to much into this, but that implies you will have very limited designing power over the feat section? My number one complaint for the ACG was how disjointed the book felt and how it felt the lead designers seemingly didn't pay attention to what the feat and archetype writers did.
Followup question for Cyclone: Does it have a clear direction to push (outwards) for the purposes of Pressurized Blast Infusion?
That is an excellent question. The cyclone spins around you, I can see some centrifugal action making sense. I'll likely clarify it, but for the playtest, playtest it out with the abilty to knock everybody back 5 feet and see how it goes!
Just from the first glance at the doc, my wife and I really want to roll up water and fire kineticists, respectfully. Composite blasts are our favorite part because we tend to roll characters that work in tandem with each other, so I'm really hoping that they get expanded in the final book :)This makes me think that there should be a Teamwork Feat for Composite Blasts between two Kineticists. Kind of teaming together to combine their elements for a single more powerful blast....Awesome! Yes, I believe this will happen. Even if I have to tear the pages out of other feats myself
I don't wanna read to much into this, but that implies you will have very limited designing power over the feat section? My number one complaint for the ACG was how disjointed the book felt and how it felt the lead designers seemingly didn't pay attention to what the feat and archetype writers did.
We're all going to be working together, and Jason has the final say, so I'm just saying I can't make any promises. I will definitely be involved in the feat section, and whether it's directly assigned to me or not, I will be reading every ability that affects my two classes in detail, even if I have to do that at home after work.
That's actually very reassuring to hear Mark. Honestly if I buy this book on release it's probably going to be due to the pleasant way you've been handling the playtesters.
Thank you for not just responding to that concern, but going beyond the call of duty in an effort to give us two enjoyable classes!
Guys, loving the new wild talent ideas. Excellent.
Also, @Deflect Arrows: "Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by natural attacks or spell effects can't be deflected."
These are generated by spell effects, so they can't be deflected (ranged touch attacks can be deflected with Ray Shield by an 11th-level fighter with a shield who can take that feat, but the ones that hit against normal AC just can't be deflected period).
The mythic monster ability Block Attacks could still neuter a character with only one attack, and of course mirror image would be very efficient.
Have you considered a power (perhaps in aether) that allows a character to split their blast damage among several attacks? Spells like Fiery Shurikencould be be something of a template. After all once your can deal several d6 of damage, splitting them between a number of attacks can be more effective (lower chance of no hits, but DR and Resistances are a factor).
I think something like Burning Arc might be a better template if lessened damage is necessary. Half damage for each subsequent blast.
Actually, that might be better as a lower level use of Burn. A lesser version of Quicken or the double blast thing, Echoing Blast or some such.
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Consider the defense talents like flesh of stone.I'm confused by the burn entry for wild talents. The burn ability says "Some of her wild talents offer her the option to accept burn in exchange for a greater effect", but all of the wild talents I've read so far list a burn amount, but don't describe a greater effect if you accept burn.
Is it intended that you have to accept burn to use the wild talent at all, and the description of the wild talent is the greater effect? Or is burn supposed to enhance the wild talent, similar to augmenting a mythic spell?
About that - since Flesh of Stone states that you can accept one burn to increase the DR by 1 to a maximum of your kineticist level, does that mean you can apply burn multiple times to Flesh of Stone if you wanted to "max" it out?
Would you have to accept the burn all at once (i.e. you can only do it to the maximum burn you can accept in a single round), or could you "layer" it one burn at a time to reach your "max" defense with Flesh of Stone?
Example - Level 8 Geokineticist/Terrakineticist (you'll win a lot of my fellow geologists over with that name too, btw) can activate Flesh of Stone for DR 4/Adamantine (1 + 1 per 2 levels beyond 2). To "max" out at DR 8/Adamantine, it would take 2-4 rounds of activation (since at level 6 you could only accept 2 burn in a single round), right?
Thanks!
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That's actually very reassuring to hear Mark. Honestly if I buy this book on release it's probably going to be due to the pleasant way you've been handling the playtesters.
Thank you for not just responding to that concern, but going beyond the call of duty in an effort to give us two enjoyable classes!
It's very easy to make a small nudge and break the kineticist (as is evident by what happened when the word "blast" got removed in edit) with a variant ability or feat. For instance, the burn ability took me a long time to balance to avoid a lot of the concerns in this thread, which I had shared, and it lives on what I consider a razor cusp of working amazingly to the point that even something like "Signature Wild Talent: Now one wild talent costs 1 less burn, minimum 0" could make it teeter. I don't want to see something like that happen, so I'm going to be watching everything that affects my classes like a hawk. It may be beyond the call of duty, but my two classes working with all their abilities really matter to me (I recognize that, much like a parent with a child, eventually it will get out into the world and someone will publish something in a Player Companion or other line of products that I don't see that will do something I won't like, but in its debut book in which I have oversight? I'm going to be obsessing over making sure it's perfect).
As to you guys—I'm grateful to you for all these great ideas and for keeping it positive in expressing the changes you want. You can all rest assured, I'm making notes, and the kineticist is now going to be better than ever (seriously, teamwork feat to do a composite blast with two characters? That's awesome you guys!).
Consider the defense talents like flesh of stone.I'm confused by the burn entry for wild talents. The burn ability says "Some of her wild talents offer her the option to accept burn in exchange for a greater effect", but all of the wild talents I've read so far list a burn amount, but don't describe a greater effect if you accept burn.
Is it intended that you have to accept burn to use the wild talent at all, and the description of the wild talent is the greater effect? Or is burn supposed to enhance the wild talent, similar to augmenting a mythic spell?
About that - since Flesh of Stone states that you can accept one burn to increase the DR by 1 to a maximum of your kineticist level, does that mean you can apply burn multiple times to Flesh of Stone if you wanted to "max" it out?
Would you have to accept the burn all at once (i.e. you can only do it to the maximum burn you can accept in a single round), or could you "layer" it one burn at a time to reach your "max" defense with Flesh of Stone?
Example - Level 8 Geokineticist/Terrakineticist (you'll win a lot of my fellow geologists over with that name too, btw) can activate Flesh of Stone for DR 4/Adamantine (1 + 1 per 2 levels beyond 2). To "max" out at DR 8/Adamantine, it would take 2-4 rounds of activation (since at level 6 you could only accept 2 burn in a single round), right?
Thanks!
Yup, you got it Mike!
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It is indeed awesome. Like I said before about wood, I'm not sure I can wrangle the page count for anything as large as another element (in this book). But elsewhere? If there's pagecount, there are myriad cool possibilities out there!Mark, I have a question.
So, would it be possible to see some umbrakinetic based stuff? Like, dealing with drawing upon the shadows and such for a stealthier type of kineticist? I know they have stealth as a class skill, but there aren't really any abilities that play off of stealth besides their (AWESOME) super range capabilities. I think I'm gonna roll up a telekinetic assassin-like character to see how that plays out.
Not that this class needs stealth, per say. It would just be awesome to have a build that plays off of it. Maybe using negative energy?
Since SLAs don't require verbal components the kineticist is already one of the best "stealth" casters without any help. Take a trait for stealth and play into it more and you get the thing of horror stories.
"WHY IS EVERYTHING MOVING, THIS PLACE IS SCARY AND I WANT TO LEAVE"
Just from the first glance at the doc, my wife and I really want to roll up water and fire kineticists, respectfully. Composite blasts are our favorite part because we tend to roll characters that work in tandem with each other, so I'm really hoping that they get expanded in the final book :)This makes me think that there should be a Teamwork Feat for Composite Blasts between two Kineticists. Kind of teaming together to combine their elements for a single more powerful blast.
+1
It doesn't affect it any more than it would nonlethal damage from hunger or thirst.
So... A little out there I know, but if I'm able to use opportune perry and riposte unarmed (say from the kata master archetype)can I use it against an AoO while gather energy to reduce burn? (I may be working on a Kinetic blade specialist, and would rather not have to depend on Infusion Specialization)
I am reading this correctly that a 6th level geokinetecist with extended range and Impale has a 120' line attack for potentially 1 point of burn? (Not that I think you'll ever hit more than 2-3 opponents.)
Those are both form infusions.
Telekinetic blast states that "You throw whatever unattended object that happens to be nearby".
1) Does this mean I can throw any object within the range of the blast to any point within the range of the blast? In other words, any object within 30 ft of me to any target within 30 ft of me.
2) If so, does that mean I can change the point of origin of the attack, potentially negating cover?
3) If not, what is the intent of "nearby objects"? Must it be in my square or in an adjacent square?
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So I was looking at the Kinetist in general and Burn specifically, and I was wondering how burn would interact with damage reduction, specifically an invulnerable rager's damage reduction which gives non-lethal DR.As so:
"A kineticist incapable of suffering nonlethal damage cannot accept burn"
A person with DR is still capable of suffering damage, they just take less.
That said: Mark has clarified DR is not intended to reduce burn. I just hope RAW is adjusted to reflect intent.
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So they are. I'll stick with magnetic infusion.I am reading this correctly that a 6th level geokinetecist with extended range and Impale has a 120' line attack for potentially 1 point of burn? (Not that I think you'll ever hit more than 2-3 opponents.)Those are both form infusions.
I have had dreams of a high-level kineticist shooting (or quickening) a magnetic infusion electric blast to take advantage of touch AC and use the to-hit boost as a prelude to a follow-up metal blast. Will you be the one to make those dreams a reality?
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So... A little out there I know, but if I'm able to use opportune perry and riposte unarmed (say from the kata master archetype)can I use it against an AoO while gather energy to reduce burn? (I may be working on a Kinetic blade specialist, and would rather not have to depend on Infusion Specialization)Why would you not want to depend on Infusion Specialization? You get it free, six times.
Feel the Burn.
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I have had dreams of a high-level kineticist shooting (or quickening) a magnetic infusion electric blast to take advantage of touch AC and use the to-hit boost as a prelude to a follow-up metal blast. Will you be the one to make those dreams a reality?So they are. I'll stick with magnetic infusion.I am reading this correctly that a 6th level geokinetecist with extended range and Impale has a 120' line attack for potentially 1 point of burn? (Not that I think you'll ever hit more than 2-3 opponents.)Those are both form infusions.
Not during playtest, but one day.
Trying to get my gnome into a playtest.
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I would love the class to gain resistance against there focus. It would be around level 2-3 gain energy resistance 5 wich increases to 10 at lv 5-6, 20 at lv 9-10 and 30 at lv 13-14. Though Aether would be different maybe resistance to force effects or an ac bonus instead.
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If Fire were to get an option for a physical damage blast, for example, through concussive blasts, could I name the character Sparky Sparky Boom Man?
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I have had dreams of a high-level kineticist shooting (or quickening) a magnetic infusion electric blast to take advantage of touch AC and use the to-hit boost as a prelude to a follow-up metal blast. Will you be the one to make those dreams a reality?
Great, now my players aren't going to be surprised when that happens...
Okay, correct me if I'm wrong.
At level 19, if I put Infusion Specialization on Extreme Range twice, then decided to use Quicken Spell-Like Ability for two burn, and then use Ride the Blast on all of my blast (for a total of 4 blasts with a range of 480 a piece), I can essentially move 1920 feet.
Wow! And that is in 6(ish) seconds.
For the attacks, I'm saying you would be "vaulting", or striking objects to ride the blast from point to point. On a regular basis though, you would "vault" 1440 feet.
Or am I missing something?
So... A little out there I know, but if I'm able to use opportune perry and riposte unarmed (say from the kata master archetype)can I use it against an AoO while gather energy to reduce burn? (I may be working on a Kinetic blade specialist, and would rather not have to depend on Infusion Specialization)Why would you not want to depend on Infusion Specialization? You get it free, six times.
mainly having to wait until level 5