School transmutation; Level alchemist 6, magus 6, sorcerer/wizard 6, witch 6; Bloodline abyssal 6, boreal 6
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a potion of bull's strength, which you drink and whose effects are subsumed by the spell effects)EFFECT
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/levelDESCRIPTION
You become a fighting machine - stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. Your mindset changes so that you relish combat and you can't cast spells, even from magic items.You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks).
You lose your spellcasting ability, including your ability to use spell activation or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list.
When 6th level spells give you stuff like Beast Shape IV, Elemental Body III, Form of the Dragon I, Monstrous Physique IV and Undead Anatomy III, it's hard to justify ever using this for any reason. Especially since you can take Eschew Materials and then cast while in Dragon Form. Even if you get full BAB for 1/round per level, you're not likely going to have any combat feats or the stats to frontline and if you do, it's at the expense of being a good wizard the other 99% of the time. This a last resort, except you can do better with other spells if you want to melee.
If you are a specialized Transmuter who has the stats to fight while polymorphed better... then Form of the Dragon I, Monstrous Physique IV and Beast Shape IV are still much better options.
Besides the lack of special abilities that monster forms give, the inability to use spell activation/completion items stings. Giving up spellcasting is just too high a cost for what you get back.
Transformation was good before those spells existed, and if you were some kind of caster-warrior like an Eldritch Knight.
It's a pretty good spell buff for your animal companion.
I recommended it as a good thing to have on a scroll for an arcane trickster in the guide. If you've got no other way to hurt your enemy, you can flank an ally and get off a lot of sneak attacks and do some pretty good damage.
It's on both the Alchemist/Investigator list as well. It's a lot later for them sadly, but not only can they be built for melee with ease the RAW says that spells are lost. Extracts are different from spells so unless the GM says no you can still use them.
Also infusion lets you cheat with the range, so you can give this to another medium BAB class, even a medium BAB class that lacks spells. Also those classes could use it as a scroll if they invest in UMD.
Back during 2nd edition it wasn't that horrible.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not entirely sure why you're directly comparing them. If you're only going to cast one spell, sure, the polymorph spells could be better. However, Transformation and those polymorph spells stack. You could cast both (Transformation last, of course), provided you got the potion of bull's strength from someone else or had something like a polymorphic pouch.
Transformation gives enhancement bonuses, those polymorph spells give size bonuses.
|
Transformation gives enhancement bonuses, those polymorph spells give size bonuses.Well there you go, it just jumped another notch.
I made up a build once which was crossblooded Sorc 6 (melee build - tiefling with bite attack who was convinced he was a half-dragon) and then straight into dragon disciple. I was planning to have the dragon form ability stack into Transformation at level 14 as my 'ultra' move. :P Unfortunately - once I joined the campaign with said character - the campaign died shortly thereafter. *tear*
With the combo - my strength would have been sitting at full BAB & a strength of 37 - and unlike most who can cast Transformation, he would have had combat feats, already have bunches of nat armor, and either an amulet of mighty fists or a body wrap of mighty strikes (hadn't decided).
Of note - form of the dragon gives a total of 5 natural attacks - bite/2 claws/2 wings.
Couldn't this synergise really well with the alchemist, since his extracts aren't spells? The synergy it could have with a mutagen could be potent too I guess.
Why the or?
Dragon Form 1 + Transformation is golden. My favorite combo is with contingency. At level 16 (orange ioun and varisian tattoo) I cast contingency--Transformation with the trigger being Dragon Form 3. Add a quickened haste and all of a sudden...
+ 8 BAB, +14 to Str, +4 to Dex, +12 to Con, +8 to NA, +5 to Fort and 6 (7 with haste) Natural attacks.
For a total of +16 to hit, +7 to damage (7 attacks), +9 to AC, 96 temp HP, +11 Fort Saves. And Transformation says you can't cast spells from items as if they weren't on your list. If you are a sorcerer you'll have a good UMD anyhow and can cast from items anyway if you need them. (although most would be melded into your form.)
If you have a bard and a paladin in your party, then you can get another +5 to hit and damage with the bard and share a smite with the Paladin (using their stats). I think you get the picture. That's what I'm doing if we run into something with unbeatable SR like a Golem or a Demon Lord or Cthulu.
Couldn't this synergise really well with the alchemist, since his extracts aren't spells? The synergy it could have with a mutagen could be potent too I guess.
Yes both alchemist and investigators can roflstomp with this spell.
Transformation also stacks with polymorph spells.
And if your gm allows it, you might be able to replace the potion of bull's strength with an extract of bulls strength, just drink one right after the other.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's not about stacking enhancements. The spell requires you to drink a potion of bull's strength, I simply suggested replacing it with an extract.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was refering to the fact that the spell seems such that you drink it while the spell is being cast. The whole "drink one after the other" thing was just my personal interpretation of how an alchemist would use it. I apologize for the confusion.
I think the confusion is from the fact that for an alchemist, instead of casting it and drinking one thing, they have to drink a Transformation extract and as part of the 'casting', they have to drink a potion (or maybe extract) of Bull's Strength.
I look at it as a very good back up to have, I'm down, my spells are out, but we're not out of the woods, the fight continues around me, I'm nothing but a detriment. Transformation, I'm back!
Most fun is the "reversible" version. (Use beguiling gift.)
Funny Fighter all clumsy! And try cast spells but low Intelligence! And backwash a Potion of Bull's Strength!
(This why me no buy Potions of Bull's Strength at market. Ick! Fighter spit.)
I think the confusion is from the fact that for an alchemist, instead of casting it and drinking one thing, they have to drink a Transformation extract and as part of the 'casting', they have to drink a potion (or maybe extract) of Bull's Strength.
Meh. Around here, we call those 'mixers.'
Around here, we call mixers 'attempting to cheat the action economy'. I mean, one time I heard of player trying to drink a gin and tonic in a single action. Impossible, I say!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Around here, we call mixers 'attempting to cheat the action economy'. I mean, one time I heard of player trying to drink a gin <i>and</i> tonic in a single action. Impossible, I say!Dont get me started and the Rum and Coke disaster...
Oh, yes, I know that one.
They're lying. It's not coke. No matter how hard you try, you can't snort it.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why compare? Why not throw Transformation on TOP of one of those other spells?
That's what I'm planning on doing with my Bloodrager/Wizard/Eldritch Knight. Full BAB Dragon/Elemental with Bloodrage and Transformation? Yes please.
It'll be even sweeter if I ever get Time Stop.
Why would you want to snort coal residue? I can imagine that you might be able to make something like a molotov by mixing it with rum, but snorting it?Around here, we call mixers 'attempting to cheat the action economy'. I mean, one time I heard of player trying to drink a gin <i>and</i> tonic in a single action. Impossible, I say!Dont get me started and the Rum and Coke disaster...Oh, yes, I know that one.
They're lying. It's not coke. No matter how hard you try, you can't snort it.
No accounting for Ifrit tastes...
As for the spell, it used to be extremely good back in the day. Now it is just good.
Most fun is the "reversible" version. (Use beguiling gift.)
Funny Fighter all clumsy! And try cast spells but low Intelligence! And backwash a Potion of Bull's Strength!
(This why me no buy Potions of Bull's Strength at market. Ick! Fighter spit.)
Exactly how does Beguiling gift reverse this, confused.
Exactly how does Beguiling gift reverse this, confused.Most fun is the "reversible" version. (Use beguiling gift.)
Funny Fighter all clumsy! And try cast spells but low Intelligence! And backwash a Potion of Bull's Strength!
(This why me no buy Potions of Bull's Strength at market. Ick! Fighter spit.)
Me not suave enough Conan take drink otherwise.
Essentially, the effects of the potion of bull's strength are included in the effects of the spell. By listing the +4 bonus with the spell, it keeps clueless rules-lawyers from claiming that since the potion is consumed as a component, and not used independently, you don't get the +4 strength bonus from it. You DO, but it's part of the spell's overall effect now.
|
Back in 3.0 it was awesome, It increased base attack with no cap so theoretically in those days you could continue gaining iterative attacks. And a Vibrant Purple Prism could store 6th level spells then. I used it to fill the prism which I gave to the party ranger in an epic level game. He ended up due to perfect 2 weapon fighting getting 16 attacks per hand for a total of 32 attacks in one round and the increase in bonus made sure most of them hit.
It's pretty good if you're a brown-fur transmuter Arcanist and you want to make a donation to the Rogue-make-a-wish foundation.
Seems like a pretty great spell to cast on your animal companion via share spells, or to give to the party rogue via an infusion.
It's been said above, but yes, combo is wonderful. For the finale of Second Darkness my Barb/Wiz/Eldritch Knight used a Scroll of Form of the Dragon III, plus Transformation, plus rage... and promptly rolled so horribly that I did almost no damage...
Rest of the party mopped the floor with 'em though.
So if you cast it on an animal companion does it use your level for the BAB or the HD of the animal companion?
|
|
So, how are people ruling the alchemist casting?
I'd run it as the alchemist using a potion as the component, and mixing <whatever> he needs to transform it into an extract of transformation.
Potion is still used up, so the cost stays the same.
Otherwise, you have a situation where he has to drink an extract of transformation, and drink a potion of bull strength, which would normally take 2 rounds.
Or is that overthinking this?
Since the wizard is 'casting' and 'drinking' as part of the same standard action. The alchemist ought to be doing the same, right?
And he can't pass the potion to anyone else, unless he makes it an extract one round, passes it off, to be drunk by them on their turn.
Otherwise, you have a situation where he has to drink an extract of transformation, and drink a potion of bull strength, which would normally take 2 rounds.Or is that overthinking this?
Since the wizard is 'casting' and 'drinking' as part of the same standard action. The alchemist ought to be doing the same, right?
Yeah, it's overthinking. The potion is consumed as part of the casting, i.e. during the same action. In that regard, it's no different than the "eye of newt" or whatever that's required for an alchemist's casting of enlarge person.
I'm gonna level with you guys, I totally forgot that you could combo this with one of the "X Form" spells. I still dislike losing the ability to cast, a lot, but that makes it much better.
Now back to your regularly scheduled internet fight already in progress.
So, how are people ruling the alchemist casting?
I'd run it as the alchemist using a potion as the component, and mixing <whatever> he needs to transform it into an extract of transformation.
Potion is still used up, so the cost stays the same.Otherwise, you have a situation where he has to drink an extract of transformation, and drink a potion of bull strength, which would normally take 2 rounds.
Or is that overthinking this?
Since the wizard is 'casting' and 'drinking' as part of the same standard action. The alchemist ought to be doing the same, right?And he can't pass the potion to anyone else, unless he makes it an extract one round, passes it off, to be drunk by them on their turn.
Well first. Alchemist do not cast. There is no such thing as Alchemist casting.
"Creating extracts consumes raw materials, but the cost of these materials is insignificant—comparable to the valueless material components of most spells. If a spell normally has a costly material component, that component is expended during the consumption of that particular extract. Extracts cannot be made from spells that have focus requirements (alchemist extracts that duplicate divine spells never have a divine focus requirement)."
I'm guessing he drinks two bottles at once. Or that he chases the transformation with a bull's strength.
Either way, it takes one standard action.