That's a nice idea. Shame they didn't come up with it for the ACG, it would've fitted right in.
And as for which classes would benefit, well all classes would benefit depending on the concept. Bards, Rogues, Ninja, Investigators.. hell, my Mad Dog Barbarian would benefit from this feat if it existed..
You don't need one. Upon character creation you may select extra skill or HP per level. Put 2 more points in intelligence, select the skill boost, and if you are too squishy there's toughness. Ranks are too powerful so skill focus x would be better.
Yes. It's been suggested multiple times. They don't do it because it would theoretically make characters of other races step on Humans' toes.
Obviously, this ignores the simple fact that Humans can take the feat as well and still be 1 feat and 1 skill point ahead of everyone else.
With this feat, 3 things can happen:
1- Non-human takes the feat: Now the Human is 2 feats ahead and has just as many skill points.
2- Human takes the feat: Now the Human is 2 skill points ahead and has just as many feats.
3- Both (or neither of them) take the feat: Human is 1 feat and 1 skill point ahead, as usual.
It would help so many classes without actually unbalancing anything... I guess having a feat that actually increases the Fighter's ability to contribute out-of-combat goes against Paizo's design policy.
You don't need one. Upon character creation you may select extra skill or HP per level. Put 2 more points in intelligence, select the skill boost, and if you are too squishy there's toughness. Ranks are too powerful so skill focus x would be better.
That's like saying Toughness shouldn't exist because we can raise Con and get extra hp as a FCB. Skill ranks are nice, but not amazing. This feat wouldn't be even close to overpowered.
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I'm inclined to think Fighters would benefit most from it; they have bad skill points, almost no reason for a high Intelligence, and plenty of feats available.
I wouldn't think most rogues/ninjas/bards would take it because they already have skill points coming out their ears.
I like the idea of the feat ... though I'd rather they just errata all classes to a 4 skill point/level minimum.
There it is, it has existed since 3.5 days in Psionics Expended and SRD, it is called Open Minded, you can find it in Psionics Unleashed for DSP and works like toughness nowadays for skill points.
Yes. It's been suggested multiple times. They don't do it because it would theoretically make characters of other races step on Humans' toes.
Obviously, this ignores the simple fact that Humans can take the feat as well and still be 1 feat and 1 skill point ahead of everyone else.
I don't have the quote, but Jason flat-out stated that they haven't made a skill point version of Toughness because one extra skill point per level felt too weak to the design team.
You are free to disagree if you prefer.
There it is, it has existed since 3.5 days in Psionics Expended and SRD, it is called Open Minded, you can find it in Psionics Unleashed for DSP and works like toughness nowadays for skill points.
Not quite. Open Minded just drops 5 skill points in your lap. Toughness gives you, effectively, a HP every level for a total of 20 for 1 feat.
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Yes. It's been suggested multiple times. They don't do it because it would theoretically make characters of other races step on Humans' toes.
Obviously, this ignores the simple fact that Humans can take the feat as well and still be 1 feat and 1 skill point ahead of everyone else.
I don't have the quote, but Jason flat-out stated that they haven't made a skill point version of Toughness because one extra skill point per level felt too weak to the design team.
You are free to disagree if you prefer.
Mine is from an old SKR post, IIRC.
And, really... "Too weak"? That's their excuse?! When has that ever stopped them before?
What the hell?! These are the same people that published "Canny Tumble", "Sure Grasp" and "Water Skinned"!
We have gods know how many feats that are so useless that they might as well never have been published, as I doubt any player takes any of them... But getting an extra skill point, a useful, balanced and simple benefit, is too weak for them to publish? Seriously... What the hell?!
Extra ranks emulate the full effect of an intelligence boost for non-Int based class like Ranger, but Toughness doesn't boost fort save as 2 points in Con would. Also when you deal with ranks you gotta remember the class skill bonus increasing the versatility of the player at lower levels. For example, if skill focus dropped 3 ranks into one skill without ranks there would be a greater gain when applied to a neglected class skill.
Well, if it's not worth a Feat, then maybe a Trait.
Lord knows you start off with 2-3 of those, and a the Additional Trait Feats gives you two more - so codified, a Trait is worth 1/2 of a Feat.
If the devs believe that it's too weak for a Feat, the best route seems to be making it a Trait.
Its in one of the psionic books already. Yes, its great boon to the game. Toughness exists so why not a trait for skill points.
Yes. It's been suggested multiple times. They don't do it because it would theoretically make characters of other races step on Humans' toes.
Obviously, this ignores the simple fact that Humans can take the feat as well and still be 1 feat and 1 skill point ahead of everyone else.
I don't have the quote, but Jason flat-out stated that they haven't made a skill point version of Toughness because one extra skill point per level felt too weak to the design team.
You are free to disagree if you prefer.
Mine is from an old SKR post, IIRC.
And, really... "Too weak"? That's their excuse?! When has that ever stopped them before?
What the hell?! These are the same people that published "Canny Tumble", "Sure Grasp" and "Water Skinned"!
We have gods know how many feats that are so useless that they might as well never have been published, as I doubt any player takes any of them... But getting an extra skill point, a useful, balanced and simple benefit, is too weak for them to publish? Seriously... What the hell?!
Oh man....too funny!
Well if it's too weak, just throw it in and let the role-players take it, and everyone else can scorn it if they want.
How does this weaken the game??
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There it is, it has existed since 3.5 days in Psionics Expended and SRD, it is called Open Minded, you can find it in Psionics Unleashed for DSP and works like toughness nowadays for skill points.Not quite. Open Minded just drops 5 skill points in your lap. Toughness gives you, effectively, a HP every level for a total of 20 for 1 feat.
3.5 Toughness gave 3 HP (only). So a PF Open Minded would change to give you 5 skill points, and at 3rd (or 5th?), an additional 1 per level. Im pretty sure it predated the Psionics books as well, going back to a minor 3.0 splat, but could be wrong.
One thing to keep in mind, PF also changed the way that ranks and class skills worked, so if used to put a single rank into a few new skills, it can actually net you a lot of effective skill points, especially at the lower levels, where a HP is a HP.
Still, best solution all around is to just drop the idea of 2+Int skill points at all.
Fast Learner in the Advanced Race Guide lets you get both a hit point and a skill point with your favored class bonus. It's for humans only.
It's also completely pointless, as you could grab Toughness and then simply take the skill point FCB anyway.
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It's one of many house rules I use.
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You could just wait for Owen KC Stephens to tweat it.
Fast Learner in the Advanced Race Guide lets you get both a hit point and a skill point with your favored class bonus. It's for humans only.It's also completely pointless, as you could grab Toughness and then simply take the skill point FCB anyway.
Or you can take Toughness and Fast Learner and get 2 HP per level and the extra Skill point.
Or you can take Toughness and Fast Learner and get 2 HP per level and the extra Skill point.Fast Learner in the Advanced Race Guide lets you get both a hit point and a skill point with your favored class bonus. It's for humans only.It's also completely pointless, as you could grab Toughness and then simply take the skill point FCB anyway.
Yea, Its not exactly POINTLESS, but its strictly worse than toughness. If you end up multiclassing at all for any reason you loose. If you want the FCB (a few of which are so good there are entire builds centered around it) you loose. AND they aren't applied retroactively. I don't think I could ever see taking it myself.
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Oh, I dunno. An exact analogue of Tougness could be pretty decent at low level for activating three more class skills. If you're playing a skillmonkey, that's pretty decent.
Like Toughness, it's the sort of thing that you might consider trading out later, but I say there's enough reason to publish the feat and see if it gets used.
There it is, it has existed since 3.5 days in Psionics Expended and SRD, it is called Open Minded, you can find it in Psionics Unleashed for DSP and works like toughness nowadays for skill points.Not quite. Open Minded just drops 5 skill points in your lap. Toughness gives you, effectively, a HP every level for a total of 20 for 1 feat.3.5 Toughness gave 3 HP (only). So a PF Open Minded would change to give you 5 skill points, and at 3rd (or 5th?), an additional 1 per level. Im pretty sure it predated the Psionics books as well, going back to a minor 3.0 splat, but could be wrong.
One thing to keep in mind, PF also changed the way that ranks and class skills worked, so if used to put a single rank into a few new skills, it can actually net you a lot of effective skill points, especially at the lower levels, where a HP is a HP.
Still, best solution all around is to just drop the idea of 2+Int skill points at all.
3.5 Open Minded gives 5 skill points, the DSP gives skill points equals to character level, Check this -> Open Minded
Fast Learner in the Advanced Race Guide lets you get both a hit point and a skill point with your favored class bonus. It's for humans only.
For no good reason.
Yes. It's been suggested multiple times. They don't do it because it would theoretically make characters of other races step on Humans' toes.
Obviously, this ignores the simple fact that Humans can take the feat as well and still be 1 feat and 1 skill point ahead of everyone else.
I don't have the quote, but Jason flat-out stated that they haven't made a skill point version of Toughness because one extra skill point per level felt too weak to the design team.
You are free to disagree if you prefer.
This is shocking to me. I would have thought the feat does not exist because it is too powerful. I'd take this feat for every character if it were available. Toughness feels very weak to me and I take it only grudgingly.
3.5 Open Minded gives 5 skill points, the DSP gives skill points equals to character level, Check this -> Open MindedThere it is, it has existed since 3.5 days in Psionics Expended and SRD, it is called Open Minded, you can find it in Psionics Unleashed for DSP and works like toughness nowadays for skill points.Not quite. Open Minded just drops 5 skill points in your lap. Toughness gives you, effectively, a HP every level for a total of 20 for 1 feat.3.5 Toughness gave 3 HP (only). So a PF Open Minded would change to give you 5 skill points, and at 3rd (or 5th?), an additional 1 per level. Im pretty sure it predated the Psionics books as well, going back to a minor 3.0 splat, but could be wrong.
One thing to keep in mind, PF also changed the way that ranks and class skills worked, so if used to put a single rank into a few new skills, it can actually net you a lot of effective skill points, especially at the lower levels, where a HP is a HP.
Still, best solution all around is to just drop the idea of 2+Int skill points at all.
Ah, sweet, didn't know they changed it. Very nice, will have to mention this to people.
This is shocking to me. I would have thought the feat does not exist because it is too powerful. I'd take this feat for every character if it were available. Toughness feels very weak to me and I take it only grudgingly.
Really? I wouldn't take it for anything with 6 skill points per level. And for classes with at least 4 skill points per level, I'd only take it if I had a feat to spare.
Even classes with only 2 skill points are often too feat starved to spend a feat on extra skill points... Paladin and Cleric come to mind. I've had this feat in all my games for quite a while now, and I can count on my hands the number of times I've seen it actually being picked.
Fast Learner in the Advanced Race Guide lets you get both a hit point and a skill point with your favored class bonus. It's for humans only.For no good reason.
Fast Learner's true value is opening up Improvisation and Improved Improvisation. A Mind Chemist can get crazy use out of untrained skills, particularly the Knowledges, with those feats. I had a Mind Chemist with +16 in all Knowledge skills at level 5 without spending a skill point. He could also swing any weapon untrained half decently for a dandy who had mainly invested in being a face. I've been fooling with an Investigator that would be very similar and it seems like a Wizard would be a good candidate for the feat chain too although I have not tried it. It's not the greatest feat but it's not without its uses.
This is shocking to me. I would have thought the feat does not exist because it is too powerful. I'd take this feat for every character if it were available. Toughness feels very weak to me and I take it only grudgingly.Really? I wouldn't take it for anything with 6 skill points per level. And for classes with at least 4 skill points per level, I'd only take it if I had a feat to spare.
Even classes with only 2 skill points are often too feat starved to spend a feat on extra skill points... Paladin and Cleric come to mind. I've had this feat in all my games for quite a while now, and I can count on my hands the number of times I've seen it actually being picked.
I guess I like skilled characters. The only builds I can think of where I would not have taken it are for the above-mentioned Mind Chemist and the Investigator I'm fooling around with. Maybe that wizard too but I really haven't looked too hard. I find I can always use more skill points.
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I mean, its 'humans only' restriction is for no good reason.
I wonder if maybe it should be a trait instead ...
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The 'rogue is overshadowed' ship sailed on day one.
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IIRC there were plans to make such a thing even before the Advanced Player's Guide was published (it was my concern that PF dropping the "x4 skill ranks at 1st level" rule would mean characters couldn't diversify their background interests).
Hmmm, I'm just thinking of the human fighter. This feat + toughness + Eclectic, a mere 3 feats. Now the character has a d10+2+con for health and 5+int skill points.
Look! The Fighter can do things other than hit other things with a sharp stick!
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3.5 Open Minded gives 5 skill points, the DSP gives skill points equals to character level, Check this -> Open MindedThere it is, it has existed since 3.5 days in Psionics Expended and SRD, it is called Open Minded, you can find it in Psionics Unleashed for DSP and works like toughness nowadays for skill points.Not quite. Open Minded just drops 5 skill points in your lap. Toughness gives you, effectively, a HP every level for a total of 20 for 1 feat.3.5 Toughness gave 3 HP (only). So a PF Open Minded would change to give you 5 skill points, and at 3rd (or 5th?), an additional 1 per level. Im pretty sure it predated the Psionics books as well, going back to a minor 3.0 splat, but could be wrong.
One thing to keep in mind, PF also changed the way that ranks and class skills worked, so if used to put a single rank into a few new skills, it can actually net you a lot of effective skill points, especially at the lower levels, where a HP is a HP.
Still, best solution all around is to just drop the idea of 2+Int skill points at all.
Yah, no wonder no one takes that.
I use a feat I call "Skilled" that does precisely what the OP suggests, and so far the only ones to use it are those that desperately need skill points, like Fighters and Sorcerers.
I don't see what the problem is with this idea. It's definitely something a lot of DM's might houserule into their games. Surprises me that Pathfinder doesn't have a feat like this already in the core book.