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Aaaaaaaaaaaaactually, based on Mythic Realms, it seems pretty clear that those who succeed the test are, in fact, only minor gods, at best.
It seems they gain a mythic special ability and are considered to have completed a trial.
From my own understanding of how it works:
- Aroden ascended... but that's because he drew the attention of <insert deity here>. He became a greater god because he's freakin' Aroden who wandered the planet for thousands of years making things better.
- Norgorber ascended... but that's because he drew the attention of <insert deity here>. He seems to have become a Greater power by moving into Axis and taking over the underworld there.
- Cayden ascended... but that's because he drew the attention of <Desna? Probably, although maybe Calistria, too or instead... but more likely Desna. I'm guessing.>. (How he became a Greater is unknown, but it likely involved more than just being drunk - it likely mostly involved time and the fact that he gave booze to the dwarves and is so very popular*.)
- Iomedae ascended... but that's because she drew the attention of Aroden (and she was Aroden's herald before he died, at which point she became a greater goddess by inheriting his divinity).
Bear in mind, this is based off of Realms of Golarion, and what that says about the Test of the Starstone... which really isn't that much.
You basically complete it, choose a patron, and if they like you, you get "choose ability A and get unique ability B" when you take a given ability. It's cool, but a bit strange. The door seems pretty solidly shut unless a GM wants it to be open, based off of that.
* While divinity is not based on worship, there does seem to be some correlation to worship/respect and divine power, though it's likely not so tightly related as, say, Forgotten Realms.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaactually, based on Mythic Realms, it seems pretty clear that those who succeed the test are, in fact, only minor gods, at best.
It seems they gain a mythic special ability and are considered to have completed a trial.
From my own understanding of how it works:
- Aroden ascended... but that's because he drew the attention of <insert deity here>. He became a greater god because he's freakin' Aroden who wandered the planet for thousands of years making things better.
- Norgorber ascended... but that's because he drew the attention of <insert deity here>. He seems to have become a Greater power by moving into Axis and taking over the underworld there.
- Cayden ascended... but that's because he drew the attention of <Desna? Probably, although maybe Calistria, too or instead... but more likely Desna. I'm guessing.>. (How he became a Greater is unknown, but it likely involved more than just being drunk - it likely mostly involved time and the fact that he gave booze to the dwarves and is so very popular*.)
- Iomedae ascended... but that's because she drew the attention of Aroden (and she was Aroden's herald before he died, at which point she became a greater goddess by inheriting his divinity).
Bear in mind, this is based off of Realms of Golarion, and what that says about the Test of the Starstone... which really isn't that much.
You basically complete it, choose a patron, and if they like you, you get "choose ability A and get unique ability B" when you take a given ability. It's cool, but a bit strange. The door seems pretty solidly shut unless a GM wants it to be open, based off of that.
* While divinity is not based on worship, there does seem to be some correlation to worship/respect and divine power, though it's likely not so tightly related as, say, Forgotten Realms.
As I recall though, what is presented there is one way the Star Stone can work but not the only way.
Int definetly was not Herakles dump stat as he used his brain on several tasks and fights.I know! She didn't know it would kill him (though, to be fair, her Sense Motive tanked pretty hard). All his wife wanted was for him to stop sleeping arou-And let us not forget where the poison came from. Messy.After getting poisoned by a shirt from his wife. How ignoble: he died by blowing his highest save...
(Of course his will saves sucked, given the number of times he went insane and killed people he loved. Or maybe it was just 'cause he was being manipulated by a goddess. Still: his life kind of sucked.)
It should be noted that in one version of his myths, every night for fifty nights a father sent a different daughter to Herakles, and he never realised they weren't the same person.
INT was his dump stat. So was WIS. He didn't put any ranks in Perception, either.
Everybody rolls a 20 on their INT check eventually. Or has Athena roll it for them. Or uses mythic power for a Moment of Intelligence +20 circumstance benefit. But yes, it's true that he did.
Herakles does use cunning in his trials (which were assisted by Athena). There are plenty of points throughout the myths where his simple-mindedness also stretches into the comedic, and he appears often in Comedy.
Everyone also rolls a 1 on their int checks so, I do not think that's a strong argument.
I agree that Athena helped him along. But Herakles is more often reffered to as cunning (He is not Odyseus, I immedieatly agree) then simple minded. I tend to think that his misfortunes are often contributed more to the plotting and cruelty of the gods then him failing an int check.
As far as game mechanics go, what does being mortal or immortal have to do with having power? Aren't there plenty of immortal creatures in this game already that are defeatable by non-immortals?All outsiders are immortal in the sense that they do no age.However, immortal in the original mythological sense meant that they do not die. This was specifically separated from eternal youth, as in the story of Tithonus, a mortal lover of the goddess Eos. In the story, Eos asked Zeus to make Tithonus immortal, but forgot to ask that he be given eternal youth. So he kept on endlessly getting older and more feeble.
If "does not die" is the requirement then no being, not even the gods of golarion, qualify. Every entity we have seen has the potential to be killed/destoryed. Even the gods.
So, either this isn't how we should define immortality, or immortality doesn't exist and cannot be a prerequisite for godhood.
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In dnd it basically comes down to devotional energy, has for a while.
Not enough = dead god.
As for getting there in the first place that requires sponsorship from the divine, or a test pillar/spire that does the same.
Oh and you have to be representative of some basic thing, philosophy or behavior another has not beaten you to.
as mentioned upthread, Pathfinder discarded that rule. Number of worshippers has absolutely no impact on a God's existence or her power. See Lissala for instance.
as mentioned upthread, Pathfinder discarded that rule. Number of worshippers has absolutely no impact on a God's existence or her power. See Lissala for instance.
I think it would be safer to say that worshippers aren't the only means to gain or sustain godhead.
Since Hell runs on the soul trade, Asmodeus gains more temporal power (though this may not mean more mechanical power) the greater the number of faithful he can attract.
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You know that saying "a sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic"? Well, a sufficiently advanced lifeform would be indistinguishable from god.What does a god need with a space ship?
It's called a chariot, duh. /endjoke
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On a side note, has anyone here ever heard of Cargo Cults?
Pacific cults of World War II
The most widely known period of cargo cult activity occurred among the Melanesian islanders in the years during and after World War II. A small population of indigenous peoples observed, often right in front of their dwellings, the largest war ever fought by technologically advanced nations. First, the Japanese arrived with a great deal of supplies and later the Allied forces did likewise.
The vast amounts of military equipment and supplies that both sides airdropped (or airlifted to airstrips) to troops on these islands meant drastic changes to the lifestyle of the islanders, many of whom had never seen outsiders before. Manufactured clothing, medicine, canned food, tents, weapons and other goods arrived in vast quantities for the soldiers, who often shared some of it with the islanders who were their guides and hosts. This was true of the Japanese Army as well, at least initially before relations deteriorated in most regions.
The John Frum cult, one of the most widely reported and longest-lived, formed on the island of Tanna, Vanuatu. This cult started before the war, and only became a cargo cult afterwards. Cult members worship certain "Americans" (such as John Frum and Tom Navy), who they claimed had brought cargo to their island during World War II, as the spiritual entity who would provide the cargo to them in the future.[13]
Post-warWith the end of the war, the military abandoned the airbases and stopped dropping cargo. In response, charismatic individuals developed cults among remote Melanesian populations that promised to bestow on their followers deliveries of food, arms, Jeeps, etc. The cult leaders explained that the cargo would be gifts from their own ancestors, or other sources, as had occurred with the outsider armies. In attempts to get cargo to fall by parachute or land in planes or ships again, islanders imitated the same practices they had seen the soldiers, sailors, and airmen use. Cult behaviors usually involved mimicking the day-to-day activities and dress styles of US soldiers, such as performing parade ground drills with wooden or salvaged rifles.[14] The islanders carved headphones from wood and wore them while sitting in fabricated control towers. They waved the landing signals while standing on the runways. They lit signal fires and torches to light up runways and lighthouses.[citation needed]
In a form of sympathetic magic, many built life-size replicas of aeroplanes out of straw and cut new military-style landing strips out of the jungle, hoping to attract more aeroplanes. The cult members thought that the foreigners had some special connection to the deities and ancestors of the natives, who were the only beings powerful enough to produce such riches.
Cargo cults are typically created by individual leaders, or big men in the Melanesian culture, and it is not at all clear if these leaders were sincere, or were simply running scams on gullible populations. The leaders typically held cult rituals well away from established towns and colonial authorities, thus making reliable information about these practices very difficult to acquire.
For all intents and purposes, these strange "gods" in their bizarre crafts came down from the sky and interacted with the natives, engaged in wars with other gods, and provided bountiful gifts of magic to these people. From their perspective, at least.
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I mean, let's be real here. Most D&D characters of around 9th level would be considered gods by us today if we saw them. I mean, if you saw someone walk up to a dying person and restore them to perfect health in less than 12 seconds, what would you think?
If you saw someone fly up into the air (levitate or fly and begin throwing fire from their hands with enough force to incinerate entire platoons of men instantly (fireball with the average warrior having about 6 HP with a 12-13 Con), while our nonmagical bullets did diddly squat to them (protection from arrows), and they were wearing nothing but robes?
If you watched someone walk out into a farming community, lift their hands, bless the crops, and increase their growth and yields by 33% for the next season? Or watch someone control the weather with their will, or call down lightning on their enemies with a glance?
If you watched someone strip another person of their free will with a word? Or assume the visage of anyone they wished? Raised the dead? Or called up the dead to be their soldiers?
What of these things is NOT "godlike"?
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It's Gozer. It’s whatever it wants to be.
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I mean, let's be real here. Most D&D characters of around 9th level would be considered gods by us today if we saw them. I mean, if you saw someone walk up to a dying person and restore them to perfect health in less than 12 seconds, what would you think?
If you saw someone fly up into the air (levitate or fly and begin throwing fire from their hands with enough force to incinerate entire platoons of men instantly (fireball with the average warrior having about 6 HP with a 12-13 Con), while our nonmagical bullets did diddly squat to them (protection from arrows), and they were wearing nothing but robes?
If you watched someone walk out into a farming community, lift their hands, bless the crops, and increase their growth and yields by 33% for the next season? Or watch someone control the weather with their will, or call down lightning on their enemies with a glance?
If you watched someone strip another person of their free will with a word? Or assume the visage of anyone they wished? Raised the dead? Or called up the dead to be their soldiers?
What of these things is NOT "godlike"?
Heh. Or a person destroying a tank in under six seconds with just a sword. And not disabling the treads or anything; actually destroying the tank.
Even a "mere" high-level martial still does what'd be physically impossible for us Earthlings.
Even with all I had seen, I wasn’t ready—I could never be ready—for when a hut with chicken legs appeared out of nowhere and spat up a group of people wearing armor and robes, wielding swords and bows, and calling fire out of the sky like some kind of demons.
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It all depends on context. One person doing these things is a miracle. A dozen of them.... a new top 500 corporation.I mean, let's be real here. Most D&D characters of around 9th level would be considered gods by us today if we saw them. I mean, if you saw someone walk up to a dying person and restore them to perfect health in less than 12 seconds, what would you think?
If you saw someone fly up into the air (levitate or fly and begin throwing fire from their hands with enough force to incinerate entire platoons of men instantly (fireball with the average warrior having about 6 HP with a 12-13 Con), while our nonmagical bullets did diddly squat to them (protection from arrows), and they were wearing nothing but robes?
If you watched someone walk out into a farming community, lift their hands, bless the crops, and increase their growth and yields by 33% for the next season? Or watch someone control the weather with their will, or call down lightning on their enemies with a glance?
If you watched someone strip another person of their free will with a word? Or assume the visage of anyone they wished? Raised the dead? Or called up the dead to be their soldiers?
What of these things is NOT "godlike"?
Exactly!
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That would definitely fit with the cargo cult thing. Heheh.
EDIT: Though I was actually thinking of biblical terms, like Elijah's ascent to heaven.
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That would definitely fit with the cargo cult thing. Heheh.
EDIT: Though I was actually thinking of biblical terms, like Elijah's ascent to heaven.
I believe that if gods stats are ever published could be an expansion of Mythic, something like Divine is a Mythic as Epic is for normal levels.So I imagine a god of magic for example like a wizard 20 + epic wizard 10/rank 10 + divine rank 5 and with some over WBL = CR 40.
A book that address high levels (12-20) with optional rules and how to play will be great, and who knows perhaps it came with one chapter or two with how to advance to Epic Levels and Divinity (level 20+ and rank 10+), not like rules per se, but like suggestion of how people interested in continue the progress can do it, something like a expanded version of what CRB says for beyond 20 level. One chapter in a book is not to much to ask, is it?
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I find the whole "you got sponsored and are a demi-god, otherwise, you're just Mythic" thing from the new info about the Test of the Star Stone to be a giant middle finger to anyone who actually believed the lore and what was written before that piece of crap retcon came out. Totally invalidates a lot of the early material on that made me interested in Golarion in the first place. The whole thing with the 2 azlanti deities sacrificing themselves was both a "ffs" and a "cool" moment for me, since there was NOTHING that aluded to that before the book came out. It was kind of just like "Oh yeah! There's this too!", which is something I hate, though I admit it happens in long-running settings.
Oh, and as for Apsu and Tiamat making the universe... Asmodeus from Book of the Damned part 1 would like to say hi. Still trying to figure out how all that slots in with the Abyss being there in Golarion's universe and the Qlippoth. The Origin of PF's universe has far too many contradictory statements, when one stops and thinks about it.
Personally, in my games I run deities like hyper-powerful spirit-type entities that obtained the portfolio, or an 'essence' of a thing/concept. Thus, why they can be killed and have their portfolios taken (as per Lamasthu's lore), and give their portfolios away (as per Desna's lore). The only omniscient, omnipotent, Abrahamic-styled all powerful GOD entity, is always the "Over-God" of whatever universe there is. I recall a plan that had some rather fun ideas of making these tiny, miniscule mortals increase in power, becoming gods, then becoming "Over-Gods" as they go to the OG's realm, only to find that he's rather normal. Works under the "There's always something bigger/better" logic, taken to the extreme. Never could get anyone interested in playing a game that would advance into something similar to 100s of levels in power. Which was good, because I'm not entirely sure how I'd run something that high up, though it's a fun thought, lol.
That said.... I'd like epic/deity rules to be an extension of Mythic. I don't recall how divine ranks in 3.5 was handled, I never had the book and I can't seem to find them on the SRD (or maybe I'm blind)... But if it's anything like Mythic with added tiers and beefed abilities... Why not? They already did it with mythic.
Only problem would be that Rocket Tag quickly devolves into Nuclear Warhead Tag.
In my campaign, which is my taste, the power of the gods are not dependent on their worshippers. However, what makes a person a god is just good PR, he is a god because people think he is god. A human may attain all the powers that one would expect a god to have, but is not a god because people don't worship him or consider him a god.
I should note in my games, there are no mortal ascended gods. Most of my gods have been around since the dawn of time (or before) or are the survivors of a planet that developed intelligence when the Earth was just forming and they either evolved to be real powerful or have technology that makes them real powerful. gods fear great wyrms in my home setting. And gods can be defeated by very powerful high level PCs working together and planning real real real well.
In my campaign, which is my taste, the power of the gods are not dependent on their worshippers.
So, gods are gods even without worship?
However, what makes a person a god is just good PR, he is a god because people think he is god. A human may attain all the powers that one would expect a god to have, but is not a god because people don't worship him or consider him a god.
So, gods aren't gods without worship?
Maybe it's just me, but I'm having difficulty following what you're saying here.
If they publish anything further about gods, something generic like the old Deities and Demigods would be much more helpful to me than more information about the religions of a fictional world I'm not using.
Personally I pretty much use creatures of a power range that I consider sufficiently powerful. And that power may be quite relative. Generally any deity that I would stat out would be around CR 25 (because higher CR is just not necessary when a Solar is already godlike in every sense of the word, right down to being unkillable without magic that opposes its very being, and the ability to poop wishes and miracles).
In my own campaign, creatures are often worshiped as gods for far less. One very prominent religion is actually devoted to a high level Lillend Azata. In the same campaign, it's not uncommon to find small cults devoted to the worship of a particular fiend, or dragon(s), or in some cases undead (such as liches, mummies, etc).
I always liked the idea that gods have PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER! because that's just what they do. They only get the power to start granting people spells and powers and stuff if they get worshiped. Depends on the setting and how I want the gods run in that though. This only partially meshes with my primary decision on what/how gods are.
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As far as game mechanics go, what does being mortal or immortal have to do with having power? Aren't there plenty of immortal creatures in this game already that are defeatable by non-immortals?All outsiders are immortal in the sense that they do no age.
I had cause to look into this a little while ago: citation needed.
Native outsiders do age, and do the eat, sleep, and crap thing as well.I had cause to look into this a little while ago: citation needed.As far as game mechanics go, what does being mortal or immortal have to do with having power? Aren't there plenty of immortal creatures in this game already that are defeatable by non-immortals?All outsiders are immortal in the sense that they do no age.
I agree that native outsiders eat, sleep, breathe, and age. What I want is core rules support for the assertion that outsiders don't age. Because I can't find it.
I agree that native outsiders eat, sleep, breathe, and age. What I want is core rules support for the assertion that outsiders don't age. Because I can't find it.Native outsiders do age, and do the eat, sleep, and crap thing as well.I had cause to look into this a little while ago: citation needed.As far as game mechanics go, what does being mortal or immortal have to do with having power? Aren't there plenty of immortal creatures in this game already that are defeatable by non-immortals?All outsiders are immortal in the sense that they do no age.Why is it an issue? You and your Players will age and die before it matters. The assumption is that true Outsiders are just like the Angels and Demons which represent the genus... immortal.
It's your game, you can make whatever determination you want. Consistency isn't required.. one medieval belief was that the seasons could not pass until the Angels of the upcoming season wiped out those of the outgoing season.
My issue is that Sauce raised a game mechanics question about immortal creatures. Claxon responded that all outsiders are immortal in that they do not age. I'm just asking for proof, from game mechanics, that this is the case.
I do not believe that outsider lifespans are discussed anywhere as a general case. Outsiders might only have a lifespan of 2 years. It might be 20,000 years. It might vary between different kinds of outsiders. The rules for outsiders do not say that they do not age. Which leaves it up to the GM to decide, which means that the statement that outsiders are immortal because they do not age is an unsupported assertion.
The citation I can give you is that, in every spin-off title and book and piece of lore, most outsiders are spun as immortal. I believe (though don't currently have access to, so I can't be sure) that it even explains this very thing in Council of Thieves fluff somewhere. Certainly the fact that since there are canonical outsiders in APs that are tens of millennia old lends credence to the interpretation. In Serpents's Skull, Council of Thieves, and Legacy of Fire, you're presented with creatures that have histories stretching back to ages before Earthfall. These are otherwise relatively standard outsiders: celestials, fiends, and genies.
It is something that is presumed in the milieu. Hence, asking for citation can seem like asking for citation when people say, "The Sky is blue!" which, you know, is hypothetically arguable (blah, blah, blah, absorbs/refracts/etc., blah), but is, for all practical purposes, self-evident: there is no reason to insist the sky is anything other than blue, as, to our senses, when we look at it, we see blue.
Though I agree, it'd be nice to see that set down in the rules because, for now, there's no explicit rules note that I'm aware of. Also, due to a specific kind of water fey, I'm not sure fey are immortal either. ("Lifespans measured in centuries": how you vex me!)
The citation I can give you is that, in every spin-off title and book and piece of lore, most outsiders are spun as immortal. I believe (though don't currently have access to, so I can't be sure) that it even explains this very thing in Council of Thieves fluff somewhere. Certainly the fact that since there are canonical outsiders in APs that are tens of millennia old lends credence to the interpretation. In Serpents's Skull, Council of Thieves, and Legacy of Fire, you're presented with creatures that have histories stretching back to ages before Earthfall. These are otherwise relatively standard outsiders: celestials, fiends, and genies.
It is something that is presumed in the milieu. Hence, asking for citation can seem like asking for citation when people say, "The Sky is blue!" which, you know, is hypothetically arguable (blah, blah, blah, absorbs/refracts/etc., blah), but is, for all practical purposes, self-evident: there is no reason to insist the sky is anything other than blue, as, to our senses, when we look at it, we see blue.
Though I agree, it'd be nice to see that set down in the rules because, for now, there's no explicit rules note that I'm aware of. Also, due to a specific kind of water fey, I'm not sure fey are immortal either. ("Lifespans measured in centuries": how you vex me!)
This. So much this.
I have always assumed that beings like angels, demons, devils and what have you are effectively immortal. Whilst researching Rakshasa for my current adventure, though, I came upon rules references that made me read the outsider type and native subtype, and I discovered that the type/subtype do not in themselves confer agelessness/immortality. Which raised the question in my mind: how long do outsiders live?
The only answer is, barring specific text which states otherwise, outsider lifespans are subject to GM fiat.
It depends on the outsider. Titans do not age, for example, as mentioned in their description.
Hence my question.
I suppose the thing with giants is that they're human like, but yeah: it's odd.
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I was sure that it eas written that they were immortal. I will try to.find it when. I get home. Maybe it was only mentioned in 3.5.
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3.5 mentioned that outsiders can not die, but it was not in the core monster manual. Basically any D&D game that does not change outsiders will have them as being immortal.
Fiendish codex one says demons do not grow old or die of natural causes.
The same is said of devils in fiendish codex 2. It even says some can remember their lives before time was measured as it is now.
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Are gods willing to prevent murderhobos, but not able? Then they are not omnipotent. Are they able, but not willing? Then they are malevolent. Are they both able and willing? Then whence cometh murderhobos? Are they neither able nor willing? Then why call them gods?
These are the things that haunt our age.
The problem with your statement is that in THIS world some of the gods are supporting the Murder Hobo. If say Iomedae wanted to stop said murderhobo directly, she would be directly opposed by Norgorber. Since Murder is kind of his thing. So the Gods are limited to working through their servants. If the gods started jumping into the material plane then they would be opposed by another God(s). Which would probably lead to the material plane being destroyed. That is why the gods need their cults, orders, etc. Because that is how they effect the material plane.
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It was a joke, and a reference to a quote of a famous philosopher, probably. I don't remember who did the 'wence cometh evil' thing.
It's all moot anyway since there are multiple gods and none of them are perfectly Good or omnipotent.
The problem with your statement is that in THIS world some of the gods are supporting the Murder Hobo. If say Iomedae wanted to stop said murderhobo directly, she would be directly opposed by Norgorber. Since Murder is kind of his thing. So the Gods are limited to working through their servants. If the gods started jumping into the material plane then they would be opposed by another God(s). Which would probably lead to the material plane being destroyed. That is why the gods need their cults, orders, etc. Because that is how they effect the material plane.Are gods willing to prevent murderhobos, but not able? Then they are not omnipotent. Are they able, but not willing? Then they are malevolent. Are they both able and willing? Then whence cometh murderhobos? Are they neither able nor willing? Then why call them gods?
These are the things that haunt our age.
As stated by DominusMegadeus, it was originally a joke about Christianity.
Unlike the omnipotent, omniscient god with no competitors on his level presented in Christianity... Golarion has countless gods with their own rivalries and goals. Could that particular god strike you down? Sure- but that might take their attention from an important border allowing a demon invasion to rip apart the souls of everyone's grandmothers.
It all comes down to politics and strategies- where do you spend your resources. The part where motrals get involved is usually the tiniest place in terms of scope, as far as the grand scheme of things go.
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Paizo just wants players to know that, no - you CAN'T kill a god (because if it has stats, that means you can kill it). I mean this literally, Gods have only been defeated on a near permanent basis (except for Aroden, who is the exception)
Not the only. at least two gods bit the big bullet during Earthfall, and apparently a whole bunch snuffed it during the sealing of Rovagug.
Aroden is just the most recent example of a divine death.